The physical universe (mahat tattva) is a virtual reality that is real - Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

by theist

Except in this case the form is eternal, ever present. You are thinking of your spiritual form as something that doesn't exist and needs to be formed. That is clearly not what Srila Prabhupada is saying.

 

Yes that's right. Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka.

 

 

 

 

Below - Childs Play. A drawing by 6 year old Bhaktisiddhanta dasa from our Bega NSW Hare Krishna community. This young boy shows us how it all works and how we dream we are in the material creation and never really leave Goloka. We only 'think' or 'imagine' we do as Srila Prabhupada explains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually, our material body has not moved

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

The highest and natural expression of the marginal living entity is realizing their full potential as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa devotional body as already explained.

Nitya siddha bodily form, which ALL jiva tattvas already are perpetually, eternally EXISTS

Our nitya siddha body is always established in Goloka EVEN is we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and it is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world, when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna.

Nitya baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure DREAM state of TRANSITORY REALITY eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva serving ones selfish interests unaware of their PERMANENTLY REAL nitya siddha authentic self in Goloka.

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future as previously explained.

This means there is also no decay, impermanence birth, disease, old age, death and forgetfulness in the perpetual REALITY Kingdom of God known as Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha planets.

[Narasingh 1]

 

Narasingh, this is a nice quote. It seems like it's from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada (or book?). Do know the date and where the full transcript can be found?

 

Yes, it is from a lecture. Mayapur Feb 11, 1976. If you'd like I can send you the transcript I have

[Beggar 0]

 

Yes that's right. Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka.

 

From one viewpoint: what exists in eternity also exists in the present moment so our entrapment in material time and space is illusory, and since everything within all consciousness is contained within infinite spiritual eternity, then so is right now. So from that viewpoint you could write what you have written above, but maybe a little different way, perhaps not using the hot-button word, "fall down" in this context. But obviously you have another agenda and that is to prove that the Prabhupada Bhag. quote,"no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" means what you are saying above. But I and many others don't believe that based on what the previous acaryas have written. But do you see how we agree on principle about the concept of eternity and the present moment? Or is this just Prabhupada Robottm 1.0 talking? Hello is anybody home? Hello? Anyone home?

So again, if you were not so concerned with your problem with the. "no one falls from Vaikuntha" quote and pushing that idea, I think that this would be less controversial. After all being a follower of Srila Prabhupada you also must harmonize with other quotes such as:

 

 

So Prahlada Maharaja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuntha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here.

 

 

Unless this really is Prabhupada Robottm 1.0 writing? Or you are so bent on your agenda that you have become robotic and are unable to participate in anything but a monologue.

[Beggar 0]

 

Yes, it is from a lecture. Mayapur Feb 11, 1976. If you'd like I can send you the transcript I have

Or you can give us the link?

[Narasingh 1]

Or you can give us the link?

I'm not sure it's online. I can assure you, I'm not a "bot"

[Sarva gattah 0]

Our nitya siddha body is always established in Goloka EVEN if we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna as there already perpetual body.

 

It is those nonsense Guru's and their followers who advocate that we can never leave Goloka and take shelter in the material world.

 

It is them who claim the inhabidants of Goloka are 'robot' servants of Krsna who just serve without the ability or free will to choose if they want to remain 'aware' of their Svaupa body, that is always fixed perpetually serving Krsna. This is always the case, even if they do choose to sub-consciously and selfishly enter the mahat tattva.

 

Those who propagate the 'borg' or assimulated mentality are actually impersonalists because they deny their own free will and indiviuality to become Krsna or their guru's mindless robot

 

Our nitya siddha bodily form is ALWAYS established in Goloka EVEN if we are dreaming in the mahat-tattva. The nitya siddha body therefore already exists and is again realized by those who have fallen to the material world when they again become aware of their natural pure state of REALITY, which means remembering they already are eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna as there already perpetual body.

 

Jiv JAGO Wake-up sleeping souls and think for your self with realized knowledge instead of being a parrot devotee.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Below - Childs Play. A drawing by 6 year old Bhaktisiddhanta dasa from our Bega NSW Hare Krishna community.

 

This young boy shows us how it all works and how we dream we are in the material creation and never really leave Goloka.

 

We only 'think' or 'imagine' we do as Srila Prabhupada explains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar 0]

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">

 

 

 

 

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

This is a cereal box from the early '60s in America. They ran an ad campaign featuring the rabbit on the box and the theme was, "Silly Rabbit, Trix is for kids!" Although Srila Prabhupada said that, the chanting of Hare Krsna is so simple that even a child or a dog can participate"; I don't believe that he thought that the siddhantic philosophy expressed by Srila Jiva Goswami in. his Sandarbhas is something meant for a young child or something that a young child can understand it unless he was a genius. That is why the philosophy of the origin of the jiva expressed by the child in Australia, without an attempt to qualify it in relation to other ideas expressed in the Gaudiya Vaisnava scriptures is truly naiive and childish. If you want to think that Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta is for young children then you are truly a silly rabbit. Silly Rabbit, Krsna is for kids! Nah, maybe the Holy Name but not the siddhanta which is replete with paradoxes and subtle nuances!

[theist 1]

 

If you are in Maha Maya, you aredefinitely not nitya siddha Bhakta although you may have nitya siddhabhakti in a dormant state:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

 

 

 

Arrggh...And that dormant state only appears dormant from the perspective of oneconditioned by past present future. But in reality that "dormant stateis the state of eternal reality.

 

Seriously I am out of this conversation. No offense Narasingh, it's not you it's the subject matter.

[Beggar 0]

 

...And that dormant state only appears dormant from the perspective of one conditioned by past present future. But in reality that "dormant state" is the state of eternal reality.

 

Well maybe theist is out of here but I want to make a comment for others then. If you read what I have been writing you will see that I do not disagree with the above quote. But my main point is that our perspective cannot always be from "the state of eternal reality". That is why we are also given by the acaryas, an analysis of our "origin" from "the perspective of one conditioned by past present future." The reason should be obvious; Because from the eternal perspective the jiva has no origin. Sarva gattah cannot see this and he wants to have it both ways. I had thought that theist was more open-minded about this.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being, which is an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka.

 

However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten (nitya baddha) by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna.

[Sarva gattah 0]

On Conceiving the Inconceivable

Some Principles in Understanding the Origin of the Conditioned Soul

by Ravīndra Svarūpa Dāsa

 

We conditioned souls are originally Kṛṣṇa conscious living entities, but owing to a desire to be independent of God and to be the Supreme ourselves, we have fallen from our original position and become covered by māyā (illusion), who provides us with false identities of gross and subtle matter. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa and His pure devotees we fallen souls can regain our original Kṛṣṇa consciousness and in so doing go back to Godhead.

 

This simple dramatic narrative tells the story of who we are, where we came from, how we fell, and how we can be restored. Śrīla Prabhupāda tells us this story, and so do the previous ācāryas and the scriptures. This story is the profoundest truth about ourselves, and there is no fault in it.

 

Yet the story becomes complicated when we discover (from the identical infallible sources) that the souls in the spiritual world are nitya-siddha, eternally or perpetually liberated souls, and that no one falls from the spiritual world. Further, the souls in the material world are nitya-baddha, eternally or perpetually conditioned, and we learn that their conditioned state is anādi, or without any beginning. These statements, also, are true without a doubt.

 

How can these facts be reconciled with the story of fall and redemption?

 

It is necessary to recognize that the seemingly straightforward linear narrative is more complicated than it appears because the narrative’s scope of action spans two “worlds,” one eternal and the other temporal.

 

We can get some sense of the relation between these two worlds if we recollect the temporal structure of the material universe as presented in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. As one ascends from Martya-loka (our level or plane), through Svarga-loka (the plane of the enjoying and administrating demigods, or devas), and further through Mahar-loka and so on (the planes of the austere sages) to Satya-loka (the plane of Lord Brahmā), time progressively dilates. Thus, as 360 years go by here in Martya-loka, only a year passes for the devas in Svarga-loka. And 300 billion years have to come and go down here for a single year to transpire in Satya-loka for Lord Brahmā.

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam mentions that when Brahmā, on earth, kidnapped the cowherd boys and calves from Kṛṣṇa, the victims were gone a complete year by human experience, but for Brahmā, operating on Satya-loka time, only a moment (a truṭi) had passed. A truṭi lasts exactly 8/13,500 of a second.

 

On another occasion Mahārāja Kakudmi, seeking a husband for his daughter Revatī, took her to Satya-loka to ask Lord Brahmā to arrange the match. Brahmā kept them waiting until he had finished hearing a recital by Gandharva musicians. When Kakudmi finally presented his request, Brahmā burst out laughing. Everyone Kakudmi would have wanted for his daughter was long gone, for twenty-seven yuga cycles had passed (about 160 million years) while the supplicant and his daughter cooled their heels in the anteroom.

 

A live television broadcast on Satya-loka of events on Martya-loka would disclose everything moving with dizzying speed, a blur of mountains rising up and dissolving away, oceans swelling and shrinking, peoples and civilizations rushing on and off the earth. By the same token, a live broadcast on Martya-loka of current events on Satya-loka would transmit motion so slow as to be undetectable by normal human vision. Only time-lapse photography, snapping the shutter every thousand years or so, would disclose activity.

Keeping all this in mind, imagine the temporal structure of the universe depicted in the form of an equilateral triangle, with the base representing Martya-loka. Its width at the base stands for the duration of the universe in our years—that is, 311 trillion 40 billion years. As we go up, the triangle narrows, so that at the level of Brahmā the duration of the universe (still depicted as the width of the triangle) is 100 of his years.

 

Now continue up the universe, past Satya-loka. The unit-measure of duration continues to dilate, time slows more and more, and finally, at the point where the material realm borders the spiritual, time has its stop. Here, at the apex of the triangle, we reach the point of translation between material and spiritual worlds, between time and eternity.

 

This is the “now moment of eternity,” an everlasting instant without past or future. We have seen how, when we go up the universe, a unit-measure of time includes more and more of our years. What then happens when we take that process to the limit, as we do when we reach the apex? That single climactic moment embodies time without beginning and end. From this point of view, the lifetimes of a trillion, trillion Brahmās are over as soon as they begin. Who can even express such inconceivable things?

 

It remains to be mentioned, for the sake of thoroughness, that the apex of our triangle marks the limit of the ascent to the Absolute by mystical speculation. According to mystic speculators, the everlasting moment of eternity is necessarily spent in stasis, immobility. Vaiṣṇavas, however, pure devotees of the Lord, know of transcendental variegatedness and activities. Although eternity is described as having no past or future, there is still sequence (for there are līlās, pastimes); and knowledge, bliss, and beauty eternally increase.

If we were to continue with our figure of a triangle, we would have to envision the two lines of its sides extending through the apex to form a second, inverted triangle. Let this triangle, with its base up and its apex down, signify the spiritual realm of transcendental variegatedness as it expands beyond the zero point of nirvāṇa. The figure of the two triangles, apex to apex, is simply another representation of what the Bhagavad-gītā signifies by the metaphor of an inverted tree, a reflection of the original tree standing on the water’s bank.

 

Our minds boggle even at the “now moment of eternity” of the impersonal speculators. Even further from our conceptions is a realm in which transcendental time, which has neither past nor future, allows for activities—pastimes—and ever-increasing qualities of beauty, joy, and knowledge.

 

Now to consider the issue before us, we must not only contemplate that inconceivable eternal realm, but we must think about it in relationship with our world of past, passing, and to come. Let us proceed to do so.

 

As we have seen, the transcendental realm is eternal present, an everlasting instant. Every soul in that realm must accordingly be characterized as nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. This includes the souls that come from the material world. For if a soul enters that realm from the material world, can we ask, “When did that soul arrive?” The question does not apply. Once the soul gets there, that soul can only be nitya-mukta. He has, necessarily, always been there. This is the logic of eternity.

 

Now let us go to a matter equally inconceivable. Let us say, for the purposes of discussion, that a soul “falls” from eternity and sojourns in the material world. When did he enter the material world? We can only say that the fall is a non-temporal act that renders the conditioned soul bound from all time. The history of his incarceration in time has no beginning. The conditioned soul has always been conditioned. Strictly speaking, the question of when does not apply. Although bondage is not the soul’s original condition, the state of bondage is necessarily described as anādi, or beginningless, and the conditioned soul himself is characterized as nitya-baddha—eternally bound or conditioned. There was no time when he was not bound.

 

Yet such souls can attain release and enter the spiritual realm. Let us say that the soul who has fallen from that realm into beginningless bondage now returns. The duration of that bondage spans time without limit, as we have seen. Yet now, if we inquire, from the perspective of eternity, “How long has that fallen and restored soul been absent?” the answer is “He never left.” Or, alternatively, “The question does not apply.” For the logic of eternity dictates that no one falls from eternity—even if he does so.

The logic of eternity also dictates that no conditioned soul can begin his eternal life—even though he does so. In considering both falling from and returning to transcendence, we must accept the logic of eternity to be true to what is real.

 

Thus we see that while it is true that no one falls from the spiritual world, we in fact have done so, and yet there is no contradiction.

The dramatic narration of a life with God, a fall from that life, a sojourn in the alien world of illusion, and a final restoration to God is not a fiction. It is a profound truth. It need not be rejected on the mistaken notion that it conflicts with other, equally true, statements of authorities.

 

For our better understanding, however, we need to be aware of one simplification that takes place—quite naturally—in the telling of the narrative of fall and redemption. This is the representation of all the events in the story as though they take place on a single temporal continuum. For example, we habitually characterize our entry into time as though it were itself a temporal occasion, a dateable event. However, as we have seen, once we become conditioned, we have always been conditioned.

 

Similarly, we think of our rebellion against God as a distant, aboriginal event, one that took place long ago and far away, in that world. In truth, that single act of rebellion is perpetual; that very same aboriginal event is taking place right now. We have only to look into our hearts to confirm this.

 

Furthermore, when we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and “there” has always been right “here.” We are right now with Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa consciousness is our svarūpa, our eternal identity. We need only wake up and see where we are.

 

All this is known to Śrīla Prabhupāda and to the ācāryas, previous teachers. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth.

Ravīndra Svarūpa Dāsa is ISKCON’s Governing Body Commissioner for the United States mid-Atlantic region. He lives at the Philadelphia temple, where he joined ISKCON in 1971. He holds a Ph.D. in religion from Temple University.

[Beggar 0]

Yet still there is more to explain and more and more...ad infinitum because the Absolute Truth is infinite. Yet there is no need to explain so much because It is so simple that there would be less, and less and less ad infinitum because It is Infinitesimal, He can be smaller than the smallest. Sarva gattah means to say just what Ravindra Svaupa Prabhu is saying but he says it in his own idiosyncratic manner in which he inadvertantly steps on the toes of siddhanta and those who delivered it to the world. Where Sarva gattah (Gaura Gopal) is clumsy and crossing forbidden lines, Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, at least in this essay is eloquent and very careful. Sarva, if you stick with Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, at least in this essay you will be safe. From the viewpoint of material time the "conditioned soul has always been conditioned" and it is from this viewpoint that the tatastha origin model is given. But is merely a model of reality from this point of view which has been given to convey particular ideas which would then logically follow. It is not an impersonalist conspiricy of the Gaudiya Math. Such an idea is do to over-extending certain concepts. The opposite but not opposing harmonious concept is from the aspect of the present moment or eternity. When Srila Prabhupada says that we are really nitya-siddha then this is to what he is referring. Different musical notes exist and in the hands of an expert musician and they become a wonderful sound full of harmony. In the hands of an untrained so-called musician, the same notes lead to cacophony and we hold our ears and grimace in pain.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

It is stated in the Skanda Purana 4.95.37 it is stated that if one breaks Ekadasi one can fall from Vaikuntha.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, Ch. 111, Verse 4, and 5, Radha is speaking to Mother Yasoda:

Of the five types of knowledge, what shall I say to you?

I speak the best of all devotional knowledge please listen.

Oh good lady do not become fearless by the advantage of Sri Krsna, an imperfect yogi (bad ascetic) can also possibly fall from Goloka.

Also, in Krsna JanmaKhanda, Ch. 126, Verse 59, Sri Radha is speaking to Sri Krsna:

Oh Lord, after reaching extreme height, one certainly falls. The violence of the Vaishnavas results in misfortune.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 59, Yamaraja is speaking to Savitri (Mother of the Vedas)

Whoever in the month of Kaartika offers a lamp of ghee to Hari enjoys in Vaikuntha (Hari Mandira) for as many years equivalent to the number of seconds (palas-a pala is 24 seconds) for which the lamp is burnt.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 60 -

Born again, he certainly attains Vishnubhakti. He becomes immensely rich, endowed with clear vision and glory.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 74 -

He, who performs the vrata of Krsna Janmastami, is relieved of the sins of hundreds of births. There is no doubt about it.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse81-

Whoever celebrates Rama Navami in Bharat enjoys in Vaikuntha for seven Manvantaras.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse82 -

He then takes birth again and obtains devotion to Rama for certain; he then becomes the best of those who control their senses and a great follower of dharma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse90 - 94

He who makes a Rasamandala on the full moon of Kartika, and makes forms of a hundred Gopas, a hundred Gopis, and worships Krsna along with Radha in a stone form and worshiping Him with a sixteen items, will live in Goloka for the life span of Brahma.

Returning to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord and His mantras. Quitting his body and returning to Goloka, he attains the form of Hari and becomes one of His attendants free from birth and death. He never falls again.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse95 -

Whoever observes Ekadasi in either phase of the moon enjoys in Vaikuntha for the life span of Brahma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse96

Coming back to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord. He will again go to Vaikuntha and not fall, meaning he/she goes back to his/hers original (meaning the form they were created within the ‘eternal present as, which is paradoxically beginningless and endless) position in Vaikuntha and never falls again- na tasya patanam bhavet).

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 -

He, who recites the name of Vishnu or gives it to someone in Bharat, enjoys in Vaikuntha (Vishnuloka) for as many Yugas as names he has recited.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 – 110 -

 

 

 

 

Tatah punarihaagatya Vishnubhaktim labhed dhruvam Yadi Naaraayanaksetre phalam kotigunam labhet

 

 

Tatah - thereafter; punar-iha-agatya - again here having come; Vishnubhaktim - devotion to Vishnu; labhet -will attain, get; dhruvam - certainly, surely; yadi-if; Narayana-ksetre -in Narayana region; phalam -merit; results; kotigunam -ten million times; labhet - will attain Returning to Earth he attains bhakti to Vishnu for certain. If the jiva does this in a place of Narayana, he obtains ten million times the merit (result).

The Sanskrit words that are used in these verses of Brahma Vaivarta Purana makes it very clear what is being said about the Jivas actually falling from Vaikuntha, Goloka and then taking birth on Earth. Finally, they return to Goloka or Vaikuntha leaving Earth behind.

Select verses are given again and again so the reader can get a bird’s eye view of the repetitive phrases that drives the points home so clearly.

Krsna Janma Khanda, ch.111, verse 5, the word patanam meaning fall, or falldown is used.

The question may be asked who falls down? The kuyogi, imperfect yogi, the bad ascetic, the one who has left devotional service. And who are they? They are the jivas who misuse their freewill.

That is why the word sambhavet is used. It means liable or possible however, some jivas don’t misuse their freewill.

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

 

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swamiwas preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that nonsense in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal presentbecause there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avadis or sleep avadis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

That origin is what the Upanishads describe.

We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world.

In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’.

How is this?

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

[Beggar 0]

 

 

It is stated in the Skanda Purana 4.95.37 it is stated that if one breaks Ekadasi one can fall from Vaikuntha.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, Ch. 111, Verse 4, and 5, Radha is speaking to Mother Yasoda:

Of the five types of knowledge, what shall I say to you?

I speak the best of all devotional knowledge please listen.

Oh good lady do not become fearless by the advantage of Sri Krsna, an imperfect yogi (bad ascetic) can also possibly fall from Goloka.

Also, in Krsna JanmaKhanda, Ch. 126, Verse 59, Sri Radha is speaking to Sri Krsna:

Oh Lord, after reaching extreme height, one certainly falls. The violence of the Vaishnavas results in misfortune.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 59, Yamaraja is speaking to Savitri (Mother of the Vedas)

Whoever in the month of Kaartika offers a lamp of ghee to Hari enjoys in Vaikuntha (Hari Mandira) for as many years equivalent to the number of seconds (palas-a pala is 24 seconds) for which the lamp is burnt.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 60 -

Born again, he certainly attains Vishnubhakti. He becomes immensely rich, endowed with clear vision and glory.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 74 -

He, who performs the vrata of Krsna Janmastami, is relieved of the sins of hundreds of births. There is no doubt about it.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse81-

Whoever celebrates Rama Navami in Bharat enjoys in Vaikuntha for seven Manvantaras.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse82 -

He then takes birth again and obtains devotion to Rama for certain; he then becomes the best of those who control their senses and a great follower of dharma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse90 - 94

He who makes a Rasamandala on the full moon of Kartika, and makes forms of a hundred Gopas, a hundred Gopis, and worships Krsna along with Radha in a stone form and worshiping Him with a sixteen items, will live in Goloka for the life span of Brahma.

Returning to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord and His mantras. Quitting his body and returning to Goloka, he attains the form of Hari and becomes one of His attendants free from birth and death. He never falls again.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse95 -

Whoever observes Ekadasi in either phase of the moon enjoys in Vaikuntha for the life span of Brahma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse96

Coming back to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord. He will again go to Vaikuntha and not fall, meaning he/she goes back to his/hers original (meaning the form they were created within the ‘eternal present as, which is paradoxically beginningless and endless) position in Vaikuntha and never falls again- na tasya patanam bhavet).

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 -

He, who recites the name of Vishnu or gives it to someone in Bharat, enjoys in Vaikuntha (Vishnuloka) for as many Yugas as names he has recited.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 – 110 -

 

 

 

 

Tatah punarihaagatya Vishnubhaktim labhed dhruvam Yadi Naaraayanaksetre phalam kotigunam labhet

 

Tatah - thereafter; punar-iha-agatya - again here having come; Vishnubhaktim - devotion to Vishnu; labhet -will attain, get; dhruvam - certainly, surely; yadi-if; Narayana-ksetre -in Narayana region; phalam -merit; results; kotigunam -ten million times; labhet - will attain Returning to Earth he attains bhakti to Vishnu for certain. If the jiva does this in a place of Narayana, he obtains ten million times the merit (result).

The Sanskrit words that are used in these verses of Brahma Vaivarta Purana makes it very clear what is being said about the Jivas actually falling from Vaikuntha, Goloka and then taking birth on Earth. Finally, they return to Goloka or Vaikuntha leaving Earth behind.

Select verses are given again and again so the reader can get a bird’s eye view of the repetitive phrases that drives the points home so clearly.

Krsna Janma Khanda, ch.111, verse 5, the word patanam meaning fall, or falldown is used.

The question may be asked who falls down? The kuyogi, imperfect yogi, the bad ascetic, the one who has left devotional service. And who are they? They are the jivas who misuse their freewill.

That is why the word sambhavet is used. It means liable or possible however, some jivas don’t misuse their freewill.

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

 

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swamiwas preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that nonsense in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal presentbecause there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avadis or sleep avadis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

That origin is what the Upanishads describe.

We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world.

In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’.

How is this?

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

[Beggar 0]

Always insisting on the angle of vision from eternity when one's consciousness is not fixed in eternity is to artificially imitate the vision of a mahabhagavat, or first-class devotee. A mahabhagavat devotee see's that everyone is already engaged in Krsna's service so he has no reason to preach. A madhyama adhikari or second-class devotee sees that the conditioned souls have given up the service of Krsna and are indeed fallen from time immemorial. From the viewpoint of the madhyama adhikari the fallen jivas have emerged from the tatastha position. From the viewpoint of the uttama adhikari or mahabhagavat bhakta everyone is situated in their position as the eternal servant of Krsna in their original forms. It sounds quite contradictory but it is not. Things will be seen differently from different levels of realization or consciousness. Srila Prabhupada preached in a style that is approachable by the rational, modern, educated mind. But actually the science of bhakti is far beyond the purview of our rational and logical analysis. The devotees see Srila Prabhupada as empowered and the Professors of Religion see him as some sort of genius. Of course, as Krsna says in BG, I am the ability in man, so he was obviously empowered. Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, the author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, .... Unless empowered by Krsna, one cannot propagate the sankirtana movement. I am impressed by Ravindra Svaurpa Prabhu's essay.

[theist 1]

 

Always insisting on the angle of visionfrom eternity when one's consciousness is not fixed in eternity is toartificially imitate the vision of a mahabhagavat, or first-classdevotee.

 

Nothing like stating the obvious. Always a winner. However this is a philosophical discussion board and the nature of the conversation has been to pick into the eternal.

[Beggar 0]

Lila and ontological theology are different. Ontology tells us that when we get there we will find that we are always there. But Srila Sanatana Goswami describes how a soul is welcomed (or welcomed back) by Krsna in Brhad Bhagavatmrta. Another paradox, how can you be welcomed back to a place that you have always been? But then again, Krsna is not limited by anything, even our apparent understanding of eternity. Thus His lila unfolds in a way that is beyond the understanding of our puny brains.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Everything in the material world (mahat tattva) is the dream of Maha-Vishnu, the material cosmos are His dreams and we can, due to free will and the ability to choose, enter His dreams of bodily vessels He has created in order to experience our own dreams, thoughts and desires without Krishna.

Both dreams (the imaginings of the spirit soul and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu) coincide with each other however, it is Maha-Vishnu who provides the facilities for all living beings who have chosen to enter His mahat tattva dream domain to experience their own non-Krishna Conscious desires.

 

The question could be asked, does the material cosmos or mahat-tattva eventually repeat itself in the next creation of the mahat-tattva with a different batch of baddha-jivas playing out those roles. Does Maha Vishnu dream the same creation when he again breaths out?

 

The answerer is, it does not matter because the material creation is not our home anyway, our real permanent home is in Goloka serving beautiful Krishna and from there the material creation is simply an illusion, a momentary dream

 

Jiv Jago - wake up sleeping souls!!