How can a vaishnava be offended? This doesn't make sense at all

[Redsox 0]

If you could be kind enough, please explain this to me as well:

 

what is this whole "offense" theory in Vaishnavism? I never could understand this either.

On one hand, krishna says: BG12.15: "He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me."

 

BG:12.14: One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me — such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me.

 

BG: 12.18.19: "One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contaminating association, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and who is engaged in devotional service — such a person is very dear to Me."

 

BG: 12.20: Those who follow this imperishable path of devotional service and who completely engage themselves with faith, making Me the supreme goal, are very, very dear to Me.

 

So i am suspecting that krishna doesn't like it when someone offends people who are dear to Him, but according to this, those who are dear to Him never have any problems with anyone, they don't get mad, and they don't get offended when you criticize them or say something bad to them .

 

Then how can you offend those people who cannot be offended? Do you get what I am saying?When such a possibility of offense doesn't even exist, why is there such a thing as "Vaishnava-Aparada" (loosely translated as doing something bad to vaishnava)?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Good question. I'm sure Beggar will be posting an appropriate quote from Srila Sridhar Maharaja in a few moments.

 

The Vaishnava won't personally take offense, but the Vaishnava also will not stand by while another Vaishnava is being offended.

[Redsox 0]

 

Good question. I'm sure Beggar will be posting an appropriate quote from Srila Sridhar Maharaja in a few moments.

 

The Vaishnava won't personally take offense, but the Vaishnava also will not stand by while another Vaishnava is being offended.

 

Again, how can there be a concept of offense if you are a vaishnava. Maybe my question is not clear? I don't know how else to say it though, I will try if you want me to again.

[theist 1]

The Vaisnava may not take offense but Krsna does and the negative reaction comes from Krsna. All the while the Vaisnava remains undisturbed.

[Vedesu 0]

I'm sure Beggar or someone else will have the quotes, but the principle is that even though the Vaishnava takes no offense, the dust at his lotus feet takes offense. And those dust particles are pure devotees.

 

Hope that makes some sense. It did for me when I had the same question.

[matarisvan 0]

 

All the while the Vaisnava remains undisturbed.

 

Judging by your posts I would have never guessed.

 

Aparadha is a social concept applicable to competing religious factions in Indian society like the Pashupatas shaktas vaishnavas and shaivas. They were always fighting each other about authenticity and competing for royal patronage. A King inclined towards shaivas would not be interested in supporting vaishnava mathas and they would fall into decline.

 

It was common to scare others using threats of aparadha.

[Redsox 0]

 

The Vaisnava may not take offense but Krsna does and the negative reaction comes from Krsna. All the while the Vaisnava remains undisturbed.

 

Again more confusing statements.... How can krishna get offended?

 

 

 

BG:7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

 

So when He is above the three modes of material nature, He is not affected by anger or any other things right? They are under His control . ALso ,if everything is under His control , how can anyone offend Him?

[Redsox 0]

 

I'm sure Beggar or someone else will have the quotes, but the principle is that even though the Vaishnava takes no offense, the dust at his lotus feet takes offense. And those dust particles are pure devotees.

 

Hope that makes some sense. It did for me when I had the same question.

 

No that makes no sense at all. Are you saying that pure vaishnava is different from pure devotee? So the purity that krishna talks about in Bhagavad Gita where someone dear to Him has no concept of offense , which purity is that? Is that the purity of a Vaishnava? Or the Purity of Pure devotees at the vaishnava's lotus feet?

[Kulapavana 0]

We are using simple words to explain complex situations.

 

Every such "offense" is a misdeed, something that should not be done. We cant learn unless we get a negative reaction for such attitudes in our consciousness. If we cant be purified of such nasty thoughts and deeds, we can not enter Vaikuntha.

 

thus the word "ninda" is used.

[Redsox 0]

 

We are using simple words to explain complex situations.

 

Every such "offense" is a misdeed, something that should not be done. We cant learn unless we get a negative reaction for such attitudes in our consciousness. If we cant be purified of such nasty thoughts and deeds, we can not enter Vaikuntha.

 

thus the word "ninda" is used.

 

So procrastination while doing work, is that a vaishnava aparada?

[theist 1]

 

Again more confusing statements.... How can krishna get offended?

 

 

 

BG:7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

 

So when He is above the three modes of material nature, He is not affected by anger or any other things right? They are under His control . ALso ,if everything is under His control , how can anyone offend Him?

 

I just told you. He is offended when you offend His devotee. A father will get angry when someone subjects his child to ridicule. It is like that.

 

Sorry I have no other answer for you.

[Redsox 0]

 

I just told you. He is offended when you offend His devotee. A father will get angry when someone subjects his child to ridicule. It is like that.

 

Sorry I have no other answer for you.

 

 

But isn't it the three modes of material nature that cause the offense? Arent' they under Krishna's control? Do you get what I am saying?

 

Please know that I am not trying to challenge your belief system here. I am just trying to understand it. When I asked the same type of questions at a satsang, I got a very unsatisfactory answer just like this one, but if I am not satisfied with that specific answer and ask again, the swami gets offended and he thinks that I am challenging him and trying to prove him wrong or ignorant, when I was only trying to sincerely clear a doubt in my mind.

[theist 1]

 

Judging by your posts I would have never guessed.

 

You have never offended me and anyway I am not a vaisnava. I just find you spiritually ignorant and emmensely puffed up.

[theist 1]

 

But isn't it the three modes of material nature that cause the offense? Arent' they under Krishna's control? Do you get what I am saying?

 

You are getting way way ahead of yourself. The approach you are taking is like trying to eat a feast all at once instead of one bite at a time.

 

First understand the truth that is before you and then ask about how it ties in with other things. Do you see? One bite at a time.

[Redsox 0]

 

You are getting way way ahead of yourself. The approach you are taking is like trying to eat a feast all at once instead of one bite at a time.

 

First understand the truth that is before you and then ask about how it ties in with other things. Do you see? One bite at a time.

 

But you didn't answer my question.

 

Are you saying I am not intelligent enough to understand why or how krishna gets offended?

[Vedesu 0]

 

No that makes no sense at all.

 

If you will pause for a few moments inbetween posts, it should make perfect sense. Please take a few moments to contemplate on these matters before replying. Devotees are offended when they see pure devotees criticized or blasphemed. The dust particles at the lotus feet of a pure devotee are pure. They are pure living entities. So if they see that the pure devotee is being blasphemed or unduly criticized (Vaishnava ninda), then they take offense. The devotee himself won't take offense, but the dust particles at his lotus feet will. Just as a devotee of Srila Prabhupada will take offense when he sees that Srila Prabhupada is being blasphemed.

 

It's not really all that difficult to understand. It's up to you if you want to understand or if you're simply searching for loopholes so that you can criticize at will, with supposed impunity.

[theist 1]

I am saying you are not allowing yourself to understand because you are not patiently processing the information that you are receiving. Like the example of eating the feast all at once I doubt you gave that metaphor any thought as to how it may relate to what you are doing.

 

Spiritual knowledge must be taken in and then assimilated just as physical food must actually be broken down into small units to reach the cells and THEN we can derive energy and sustanance from it. There is more to it then just filling the stomach.

 

Be a little more patient and try to understand exactly what has been said. Then if you have a doubt you can present that.

 

IOW's SLOW DOWN and CHEW YOUR FOOD!

[Redsox 0]

 

If you will pause for a few moments inbetween posts, it should make perfect sense. Please take a few moments to contemplate on these matters before replying. Devotees are offended when they see pure devotees criticized or blasphemed. The dust particles at the lotus feet of a pure devotee are pure. They are pure living entities. So if they see that the pure devotee is being blasphemed or unduly criticized (Vaishnava ninda), then they take offense. The devotee himself won't take offense, but the dust particles at his lotus feet will. Just as a devotee of Srila Prabhupada will take offense when he sees that Srila Prabhupada is being blasphemed.

 

It's not really all that difficult to understand. It's up to you if you want to understand or if you're simply searching for loopholes so that you can criticize at will, with supposed impunity.

 

Again, I am sorry if I offend you. The fact is, I am not really challenging your belief system, I am merely overwhelmed by the loopholes that I see exist.

 

For instance, you said the dust that exists at the lotus feet of the devotee are also pure living entities. Now according to how I read Bhagavad Gita, a pure devotee or a living entity is something that is dear to krishna. If that is so, then whatever is dear to krishna as said by krishna in Bhagavad Gita never gets offended. Then how can it be so that a devotee like Srila prabhupada or the dust at his lotus feet be offended when no such concept of offense exists within a pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada?

 

Is it that I am reading this wrong? Maybe Krishna doesn't mean that pure living entity never gets angry or offended , or is it so that those who see offense are not pure?

 

Again, I sincerely apologize, I am not trying to find loopholes, maybe I am just thinking too much into it.

[Redsox 0]

Okay, if you want me to wait, I will wait , re-read your posts, see if it makes sense, if it doesn't, I will post back. Thanks for your time and patience.

[theist 1]

That's it's. No problem. Impatience is common to us all Redsox.

 

Here is something that has helped me greatly and it may you also I don't know.

 

I have become resigned to my own ignorance. I will remain ignorant of 99.9999+% of spiritual knowledge even at the time of death, afterall Krsna is an unlimited subject. So it makes more sense to concentrate on assimilating what little knowledge I can take in. To concentrate more on depth of understanding then quanity of facts I can stuff into my memory bank (like overstuffing the stomach and digesting nothing).

 

It works for me and frees me from a lot of needless confusion.

[Beggar 0]

 

 

Aparadha is a social concept applicable to competing religious factions in Indian society like the Pashupatas shaktas vaishnavas and shaivas.

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." John Lennon

 

mararisvan also does a good job of confusing authentic Vaisnavism or theism with atheism.

[matarisvan 0]

 

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." John Lennon

 

mararisvan also does a good job of confusing authentic Vaisnavism or theism with atheism.

 

If you mean your own brand of vaishnavism where you are confused to the point where you cannot separate social concepts from religious concepts then you are correct. Otherwise you are wrong.

 

where is vaishnava aparadha described in the gita? where is the phrase found in the Srimad bhagavatam?

[Vedesu 0]

 

Again, I am sorry if I offend you.

 

Is it that I am reading this wrong?

 

Again, I sincerely apologize, I am not trying to find loopholes, maybe I am just thinking too much into it.

 

Oh, there's no need to apologize, although I much appreciate the gesture. It does show that you are sincere. I took no offense, trust me.

 

I'm probably not explaining things properly. I suppose I could try and reword things, but maybe I need a break as well.

 

I was trying to give the example of how if someone committed an offense (blasphemy or ninda) to Srila Prabhupada, he wouldn't take offense personally. But his devotees would. For starters, as Theist was alluding to, Krsna is the devotee of His devotees. Also, the dust particles at the lotus feet of the pure devotees are also pure devotees. Pure devotees do not like to see their Prabhus blasphemed or criticized. This is stated throughout sastra. So, if Srila Prabhupada were slandered, he wouldn't take offense personally, but his devotees would. (The dust particles at his lotus feet are his devotees/servants, as is Sri Krsna Himself.)

 

Lord Nityananda did not take offense due to the violent behavior of Jagai and Madhai, but Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did, and was prepared to kill the offenders. In other words, pure devotees will tolerate offenses unto themselves personally, but will not tolerate offenses to their brethren pure devotees. (Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda were engaging in lilas such that they were acting as Krsna bhaktas, not as Avatars.)

[Beggar 0]

 

where is vaishnava aparadha described in the gita? where is the phrase found in the Srimad bhagavatam?

 

I'm sure that this argument thoroughly establishes that the concept of Vaisnava aparadha is just a social convention. Yeah right! Try reading Caitanya Caritamrta. Oh that's right, you don't accept it as sastra. What are you doing on this forum anyway?

[matarisvan 0]

 

I'm sure that this argument thoroughly establishes that the concept of Vaisnava aparadha is just a social convention. Yeah right! Try reading Caitanya Caritamrta. Oh that's right, you don't accept it as sastra. What are you doing on this forum anyway?

 

Are you now saying people who do not accept chaitanya charitamrita should not post on the forum?

 

If you can look beyond your myopic view the number of vaishnavas from bengal are only a tiny fraction of the number of vaishnavas. I am from the line of srivaishnavas where happily we are aware of other brances of vaishnavas..something you seem to be unaware of.

 

Your usage of vaishnava for gaudiya vaishnava specific concepts are not only confusing but incorrect too. If you were to specifically say gaudiya vaishnav aparadha then you will not have people like me raise objections. But when you simply say vaishnava then other vaishnavas like myself will take notice.