A gaudiya vaishnava speaks out on christianity and other religions...

[raghu]

An interesting message I got in an e-mail recently. Interesting because it is quite a different view from that which is often enunciated in iskcon circles....

 

Real Religion is not Man-made

 

by

 

Swami B.G. Narasingha

 

During a recent visit to Europe I had some informal discussions about

religious conceptions with other Gaudiya Vaisnavas and I was

surprised to hear some devotees speak about such groups as the Sufis,

Whirling Dervishes, Jews, Christians, Catholics, Orthodox Christians

and Muslims as being deeply `surrendered' souls. Of course, generally

speaking this may be true – but surrendered to what? I would like to

point out in this article that sraddha [faith], saranagati

[surrender] and seva [service] are spiritual substances and

activities that are only transcendental when in direct connection to

Krsna and that the popular religions of today's world are but the

continuation of a Vedic heresy that began long, long ago in ancient

times.

 

The first point is that dharma [real religion] is given by God

himself – dharman tu saksat bhagavat pranitam. Real religion is not

man-made. Dharma is the knowledge and activities of the intrinsic

relationship that exists between Krsna and all living entities

eternally. This is sometimes called sanatana-dharma, eternal

religious principles. In a word sanatana-dharma has been summed up as

seva, or the living entities relationship of service to the Supreme

Being. Therefore, so-called service to various deities or to icons

that are conjured by man can never be considered seva in the true

sense of the word.

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura once commented on the situation of

spirituality in India that, "At present many false meanings have been

imported into the word devotion. Regard for one's parents, loyalty to

man, obedience to the teacher, etc, pass as bhakti." (Sarasvati

Thakura, lecture, Vrndavana 1928)

 

In a similar way one can say about western spirituality that all

sorts of misconceptions and innovations have also been passed off as

spiritual practices, devotion, service, love of God, etc, when in

fact they are not.

 

In Sanskrit the root word bhaj means to serve. Bhaktivinoda Thakura

has pointed out by quoting the Garuda Purana in Bhakti-Tattva-Viveka,

Ch.1 as follows:

 

"The word bhakti is derived from the root verb form bhaj. It is said

in the Garuda Purana (Purva-khanda 231.3)

 

bhaj ityesa vai dhatuh

sevayam parikirtitah

tasmat seva budhaih prokta

bhaktih sadhana-bhuyasi

 

"The verbal root bhaj means to render service. Therefore, thoughtful

sadhakas should engage in the service of Sri Krsna with great

endeavor, for it is only by such service that bhakti is born."

 

The basis of dharma is rooted in transcendental knowledge of the soul

[atma], the Supersoul [Paramatma] and the Personality of Godhead

[bhagavan]. In reality no such knowledge of the soul, the Supersoul

or the Personality of Godhead exists in the world's popular mundane

religions. Therefore, intelligent human beings do not accept the

popular mundane religions as transcendental.

 

Referring to the scriptures of the world's religions in the west,

Sarasvati Thakura commented as follows:

 

"Senselessly killing living beings simply for the purpose of pleasure

is fundamental to all these religions. Unlike the transcendental

words of the Vedas, none of these paths are eternal. Therefore, one

who deliberates upon these scriptures will naturally develop doubt

about them since they lack a solid foundation." (Sarasvati Thakura,

purport, Cc. Adi 17.169)

 

Additionally, sraddha and saranagati [faith and surrender] presuppose

seva. First surrender, then serve: tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya. This surrender means far more than one's strict

obedience to a master or teacher of a particular technique or

thought. Surrender means, complete obedience to the will of Krsna and

not to that of anything else. First surrender [pranipatena] then

serving mood [sevaya] manifests. And to surrender one must have

faith, sraddha.

 

 

If one believes in a particular conception or philosophy that is not

a bona-fide siddhanta, or an axiomatic truth regarding the Absolute

Truth, then according to sastra [laws and by-laws of dharma] such so-

called belief is only a temporary state of mind fabricated under the

modes of material nature. Such a mental belief system is not to be

confused with sraddha.

 

Real sraddha is not a state of mind influenced by the modes of

nature. Sraddha is an influence over the heart that confirms to the

living entity the path of devotional service, krsna-bhakti.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written the following in this regard in his

Mahaprabhur Siksa, ch 10.

 

The definition of sraddha is this:

 

sraddhah sabde visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya

krsne bhakti kaile sarva karma krta haya

 

"By performing transcendental loving service to Krsna, one

automatically performs all secondary activities. This confident, firm

faith, that is favorable to the execution of devotional service is

known as sraddha." (Cc. Madhya 22.62)

 

To have firm conviction that devotion to Krsna is the only means for

the living entity, and that performance of karma and jnana devoid of

bhakti are useless. Such a favorable inclination of the heart is

called sraddha.

 

Sraddha is a purely spiritual illumination that emanates from the

internal energy of Godhead, the hladini-sakti, Sraddha-devi. This

energy as it is, knows no Lord and master other than Krsna and

therefore sraddha does not come to the living entities to reveal any

lesser gods or masters. As Srila Sridhara Maharaja has said, "Sraddha

is the halo of Srimati Radharani and saranagati is the halo of Krsna."

 

Sraddha reveals Krsna [Visnu] and no other. However, if one finds

oneself following or appreciating man-made religions, such as those

of the Abrahamic tradition, then this is due to one's own misfortune

and karma and not due to the guiding revelations of sraddha.

 

In brief, sraddha has been described by some of Gaudiya Vaisnava's

greatest acaryas as the halo of Srimati Radharani and the firm

conviction that by serving Krsna all other purposes will be served.

 

The numerous so-called religions of the world that exist outside the

Vedic system are not transcendental because they have no real

connection to the Absolute Truth. Over time the proponents of these

major world religions have done much harm to the world and deceived a

multitude of people by engaging them in impious activities and all in

the name of `good faith.'

 

If one deeply studies western theology and the history of religion

one will discover that all contemporary religious thought has

originated from the time of the Rg-Vedic civilization. These

religious thoughts however did not come to the world as wholesome

theology but rather as a Vedic heresy. The first heresy of this kind

was Zoroastrianism that gained a following in the western frontiers

of the Rg-Vedic civilization, namely in Iran, before the Rg-Veda was

written.

 

Zoroaster the founder of Zoroastrianism preached a doctrine of

monotheism but he did not accept the monotheistic God [Visnu] of the

Vedas. Zoroaster instead put forward the worship of the Asuras

[demons] and proposed Ahura [Asura] Mazda as the Supreme Deity.

Zoroaster also created other anti-Vedic conceptions to embellish his

new religion and Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains them in Tattva-viveka:

 

"Zarathustra [Zoroaster] is a very ancient philosopher. When his

philosophy found no honor in India, Zarathustra preached in Iran. It

was by the influence of Zarathustra's ideas that Satan, an equally

powerful rival to God, made his imaginary appearance first in the

religion of the Jews and then in the religion based on the Koran.

Then, influenced by Zarathustra's idea of two Gods, the idea of three

gods, or a `Trinity' made its appearance in the religion

[Christianity] that had come from the Jewish religion.

 

"At first, three separate gods were concocted in the philosophy of

Trinity. Later, learned scholars were no longer satisfied with this,

so they made a compromise stating that these three concocted gods

were God, the Holy Ghost, and Christ." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Tattva-

viveka 1/21)

 

Several thousand years after Zoroaster, in approximately 500 BCE, the

Persian Empire brought the Zoroastrian ideas of monotheism to Judea.

In Judea the Jews abandoned their many pagan deities and adopted the

idea of one God whom they called Yaweh, the tribal god of the

Mountains or the god of Abraham. The idea that there is one Supreme

God took hold in Judea but, as with the followers of Zoroastar, who

the Supreme God was eluded them.

 

Prior to that time all Mediterranean cultures of the ancient world

had been pagan in their beliefs. From monotheism, first being

introduced into Judaism by the Persians, later Christianity developed

and then Islam developed along those lines. But in no case was the

nature, characteristics and personality of Godhead clearly known.

 

In some circles of western Vaisnavas, ideas abound about

personalities such as Jesus Christ being an incarnation of Lord

Brahma, Lord Balarama or even Srila Prabhupada being an incarnation

of Jesus. These ideas have no sastric basis and devotees should be

cautious about accepting ideas and conclusions that are contrary to

the opinions of previous acaryas.

 

Thus, all the so-called religions west of the Indus River can

rightfully be called a heresy, of a heresy, of a heresy of the Vedic

religion. This continuous unfolding of man, adding to and subtracting

from real religion, is a process that continues to the present day in

the name of the Protestant Church and New Age Religions.

Unfortunately, none of these said heresies represent the Supreme

Godhead, or do anything except deceive the living entities about the

ultimate goal of life.

[raghu]

My apologies. This is the message I got in e-mail, the previous one was the article which this is a response to - both can be found on their website. I apparently do not have sufficient permission to post the URL for that website, but I'm sure you can google it if you want....

 

 

More on Real Religion is Not Man Made

 

 

by

 

Swami B.G. Narasignha

 

 

 

The following are some devotees' comments on Narasingha Maharaja's

article "Real Religion is Not Man Made" followed by Maharaja's reply.

 

Devotee: Very interesting article but it created some doubts in me.

Does God not reveal his teachings in many places simultaneously?

 

Narasingha Maharaja: There is no such statement in the revealed

scriptures [sastras] that Visnu/Krsna [God] reveals His teachings in

many places simultaneously. When it is mentioned that religion is

taught according to time, place and circumstances then that is

referring to bona fide teachers of eternal religion, like Sri

Ramanujacarya and Sri Madhvacarya and not upstarts like Mohammed,

Jesus or St. Paul.

 

What is mentioned however is that in Kali-yuga many false doctrines

and religions will sprout up all over the world. This pertains to

false doctrines sprouting up in India such as Mayavada, Buddhism,

Sahajiyaism, etc and in western countries this applies to paganism

and the Abrahamic religions [Judaism, Islam and Christianity] that

are considered the religions of the Mlecchas.

 

Devotee: I mean, other religions may not have the pure essence of

Vaisnava philosophy, but still they have some seed of real bhakti

that can sprout and grow to some level.

 

Narasingha Maharaja: If they don't have the "pure essence," then it

is contradictory to say that they have "some seed of real bhakti."

Pure essence and the seed of real bhakti are synonymous. The "seed of

real bhakti" is the intrinsic knowledge of who God is and what our

eternal relationship with Him is. The real seed of bhakti is not a

hazy or unclear conception. Because Christianity and other Kali-yuga

religions have no clear conception, they cannot develop in any useful

manner. Nor does God appear or send his bona fide representative to

teach a hazy conception, unless it is for the purpose of deluding the

atheists such as in the case of Sankaracarya.

 

Vaisnavas reject the teachings of Sankaracarya as irreligious even

though Sankaracarya was Siva [a great devotee]. So even if we did

accept Jesus as a representative of God, because the teachings of

Christianity are vague and imperfect, we reject them as having no

practical application. For example, in the past 2,000 years it has

not been possible for Christians to understand who God is or even

what the soul is or anything about reincarnation, etc. That means

that even after practicing Christianity for a lifetime, a Christian

still dies in ignorance and goes to `Hell' for his sins. The idea

that Jesus died for one's sins and one is thus eligible to enter

Heaven and live eternal life is a man-made idea, an idea created by

Paul to get easy followers. Such an idea is not a reality.

 

Devotee: The idea that all manifestations of religion other that pure

bhakti are only creations of the mind seems too radical to me.

 

Narasingha Maharaja: This may be a radical idea, but it is also a

historical fact. Christianity developed from a Jewish heresy and was

mostly fabricated by Paul. Judaism had received its scriptures and

religion [monotheism] from the Persians [Zoroastrians] and Zoroaster

had been rejected from Vedic civilization for concocting a heretical

philosophy [this is mentioned in the Rg-Veda]. Starting with

Zoroaster one mental concoction simply gave birth to another mental

concoction and the end of such mental concoctions is nowhere in

sight – especially as concerns Christianity. They go on concocting

ideas such as salvation thru Jesus, purgatory, virgin births, Heaven,

Jesus is God, inventing scripture, etc — none of which are anything

less than a mental concoction.

 

The history of Christianity reads something like this: Jesus was a

Jew, Christians were Jewish heretics, after killing off all Gnostic

Christians and other sects of Christianity, the Orthodox church

reigned supreme, Roman Catholicism crushed the Orthodox Church and

killed any remnants of ancient Christianity and persecuted the Jews,

Protestant Churches were the bastards of Catholicism, the Mormons are

a Christian cult among the Protestants and Jesus is coming soon!

 

Devotee: I have translated one article by Bhaktivinoda Thakura who

respects other signs of bhakti in other religions. According to the

article of Bhakti Gaurava Narasingha Swami Maharaja, religions other

than Vaisnavism cannot lead their adepts towards God. Until now I was

thinking that although these religions cannot give one, for instance

madhurya-rasa, still they allow one to make spiritual progress that

ultimately will give that person the highest position.

 

Narasingha Maharaja: No amount of progress in ignorance gives one the

highest position, not even after a million births. Without a clear

idea of who God is and how to serve Him, one remains lost in the fog

of misconception and wanders in the material world forever.

 

Devotee: Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written as follows: "Sectarianism

is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first

ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with

sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through

disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving

it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and

locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not

necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is

different from another.
As a community gradually develops more

respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other

communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian

symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial."

 

Narasingha Maharaja: The 'sectarianism' that Bhaktivinoda is speaking

about is Christianity and Islam. The Absolute Truth is Vaisnavism.

Real Vaisnavism is the Truth taught by acaryas. Those ideas gradually

become changed as in the case of Zoroaster and gradually become

doctrines like Christianity that hate other communities.

 

We do not hate Christians, we hate ignorance and to defeat ignorance

we preach the Truth. Christianity, on the other hand, has a horribly

blood-stained history of killing everything and anything that they do

not understand. Christianity is therefore sectarian, whereas

Vaisnavism or sanatana-dharma is the eternal function of the soul

(jaiva-dharma).

 

In the stage of being a kanistha-adhikari Vaisnava one cannot make

proper distinctions between real religious principles and maya

[illusion]. The fact is that many devotees of the Krishna

consciousness movement these days have become stuck in the kanistha-

adhikari stage and are not making proper advancement. However, when

one becomes situated in the stage of madhyama-adhikari, by proper

association and guidance, then one is able to discriminate between

eternal religious principles and sectarianism such as Christianity.

 

Devotee: Bhaktivinoda continues as follows; "The religious principles

taught by Mohammed and Jesus Christ are similar to the religious

principles taught by Vaisnava sects. Buddhism and Jainism are similar

to Saiva-dharma. This is scientific consideration of truths regarding

religious principles. Those who consider their own religious

principles as real dharma and others religious principles as

irreligion or sub-religion are unable to ascertain the truth due to

being influenced by prejudice. Actually religious principles followed

by people in general are different only due to the different

qualifications of the practitioners, but the constitutional religious

principles of all living entities are one."

 

Narasingha Maharaja: Bhakivinoda is speaking in such a way as to

encourage the followers of sectarian doctrines such as Christianity

and Islam to give up their limited concepts and recognize real dharma

[Vaisnavism]. Bhaktivinoda is not condemning the followers of

Vaisnava dharma as sectarian for recognizing that Vaisnava dharma is

the eternal function of the soul.

 

Don't forget that Bhaktivinoda's opinion is [as stated in Tattva-

viveka] that no intelligent person will accept the ideas of salvation

thru the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus as Christianity

suggests.

 

 

 

Text and commentary from Tattva-viveka by Bhaktivinoda as follows:

 

Text 1.25

adi-jivaparadhadvai sarvesam bandhanam dhruvam

tathanya-jiva-bhutasya vibhor dandena niskrtih

 

Some say that due to the sin committed by the first living entity,

all other living entities are therefore trapped in the material

world. Thus God accepts punishment in order to deliver the living

entities.

 

Commentary

 

Contemplating the virtues and vices of this world, some moralistic

monotheists came to the conclusion that this world is not a place of

pure pleasure. In fact, the sufferings are more than the pleasures.

They concluded that this world was a prison house meant to punish the

jivas. If there is punishment, then there must also be a crime. If

there is no crime, why would there be punishment? What crime did the

jivas commit? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of

small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea.

 

They said that God created the first jiva and had him stay in a

pleasurable garden with his wife. He was forbidden to eat the fruit

of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil advice of an impious

person, the first beings ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge,

thus disobeying God's instructions. They then fell from that place

into the world filled with misery. Due to their offense, all living

entities are also offenders from the time of their birth. Not seeing

any other way to eliminate this offense, God Himself took birth

amongst human beings, accepted all the sins of those jivas who took

shelter of Him, and then He died. Those that do not follow Him fall

into hell eternally. Thus God punishes Himself in order to liberate

the jivas. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this, ei

matati sahaja-buddhite ayatva kora jay na.

 

 

Text 1.26.

janmato jiva-sambhavo maranante na janma vai

yat-krtam samsrtau tena jivasya caramam phalam

 

They claim that the jiva's life begins at birth and terminates at

death. After death, he is not born again. Whatever activities that

jiva has performed, he will attain the results at the end.

 

Commentary

 

To have faith in this mixed-up religion one must first believe these

rather illogical ideas – the living entity's life begins at birth and

ends at death. Before birth the jiva did not exist, and after death

the jiva will no longer reside in the realm of material activities.

Also only humans have consciousness and other creatures do not. Only

those with minute intelligence can identify with this (ei visvasati

nitanta sankirna prajnar paricaya).

 

The jiva is not spiritual by nature. By His own will the Supreme

Being created the jivas out of dull matter. Why do jivas appear in

very unequal situations? These people cannot say. Why is one jiva

born into a house filled with misery, another jiva born into a house

full of happiness, another jiva is born in the house of a devotee and

another living entity born into the house of a demoniac atheist? Why

is one jiva born in a place where he is prone to perform good acts,

and become pious? Why is another jiva born in a place where he is

encouraged to perform sinful acts and becomes wicked? They cannot

say. In this way it seems that God is irrational (isvarake avivecaka

bolite hoy).

 

Why do they consider that animals have no consciousness? Why do birds

and beasts not have consciousness like humans? Why do the human only

have one life, and due of their actions in that life must attain

eternal heaven or eternal hell? One who believes in a compassionate

God will find this system totally unacceptable (e visvas udoyamoya

isvaranugata loker pakse nitasta agrahya).

 

 

Devotee: I feel that religion has different levels and presenting

everything only in black and white does not convince me. I hope that

nobody will crucify me if I write that there were many really exalted

and wise persons in other traditions, like St. Francis, Tolstoy and

many others.

 

Narasingha Maharaja: If you consider St. Francis or Tolstoy

as "really exalted" then you must be prepared to recognize that India

has millions of such exalted persons. In fact even the rickshaw

drivers in Vrndavana, Mayapura and Jagannatha Puri are thousands of

times more advanced than either St. Francis or Tolstoy. There are

million and millions of people in India who know Krsna is God. They

know about reincarnation, vegetarianism, karma and other Vedic

knowledge.

 

Holy places like Haridvara, Hrsikesa and Badarinatha have produced

thousands of saintly personalities equal and greater than Jesus or

John the Baptist, but the only difference is that their followers did

not forsake them and crucify them. Even an average 'good Hindu' is

hundreds of times greater than Jesus and what to speak of Vaisnavas

like Vasudeva Datta, who are considered thousands of times greater

and more magnanimous than Jesus. So why then are a small handful of

persons from the western Mleccha civilizations, who have only meager

knowledge of God and the purpose of life, being considered really

exalted? The answer lies in that even after coming in contact with

Vaisnavism, it is difficult for some devotees to give up their

previous misconceptions and religious bias.

 

Devotee: Of course, they were not on the level of Haridasa Thakura

but there is such a thing as gradual progress and they were on high

moral and ethical level and were thinking a lot about God, so maybe

in future lives it will be more easy for them to get to this high

level of bhakti.

 

Narasingha Maharaja: Not only were they not on the level of Haridasa

Thakura, they were not even on the level of the average Hindu

housewife who is strictly vegetarian, who follows Ekadasi and who

worships Bala-Krsna everyday.

 

Among the Mlecchas, comparatively speaking, St. Francis and Tolstoy

may have been above average but when compared to the standards of

spirituality in India, they were far below average. When you stop to

think about it, in the era of St. Francis and Tolstoy, even so-called

educated people in Europe didn't know how to clean their backsides

after passing stool or to take a daily bath.

 

Devotee: Although Narasingha Maharaja`s article is interesting, my

heart is much more moved by this dialog of a Christian with Sridhara

Maharaja, `Beyond Christianity' from the book, `Sri Krishna, Reality

the Beautiful.'

 

In the following conversation, Srila Sridhara Maharaja compares

theistic beliefs with some Christian students from America.

 

Christian: Can you explain the Vaisnava viewpoint of Christianity?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Christianity is incomplete Vaisnavism; not

fullfledged, but the basis of devotional theism. We find the

principle of "Die to live" there to a certain extent, at least

physically. The Christians say that the ideal shown by Jesus is self-

sacrifice. In our consideration, however, that is not fullfledged

theism, but only the basis. It is an unclear, vague conception of

Godhead: "We are for Him." But how much? And in what shape, in what

attitude? All these things are unexplained and unclear in

Christianity. Everything is hazy, as if seen from far off. It does

not take any proper shape. The cover is not fully removed, allowing

us to come face to face with the object of our service. The

conception of service to God is there, and a strong impetus to attain

that, so the foundation is good, but the structure over the

foundation is unclear, vague, and imperfect."

 

Narasingha Maharaja: Yes, Christianity is imperfect, vague and

unclear as Sridhara Maharaja has mentioned. If you knew Sridhara

Maharaja, then you also will know that when something is unclear,

vague and imperfect that it cannot lead to perfection. Sridhar

Maharaja was also fond of saying that, "No amount of ignorance can

produce knowledge. No amount of darkness can produce light." Only

pure bhakti can give pure bhakti, therefore one must give up all

cheating man made religions as adharma or unfavorable for the

cultivation of Krsna consciousness and take complete shelter of jaiva-

dharma, the eternal religion.

[gHari]

Unfortunately, Jesus has been hijacked by his handlers. But the essence-seekers will find the message he was sent to deliver still intact through the millennia. The pure in heart will receive Gaura with open arms.

[theist]

 

When it is mentioned that religion is

taught according to time, place and circumstances then that is

referring to bona fide teachers of eternal religion, like Sri

Ramanujacarya and Sri Madhvacarya and not upstarts like Mohammed,

Jesus or St. Paul.

 

Narasingha just revealed himself as a foolish person.

[suchandra]

 

Narasingha just revealed himself as a foolish person.

I have to agree with theist, this constant picking on others what they foolishly actually believe is not taught by the yuga-avatar Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu as bonafide method to spread the nectar of chanting the Holy Name. The chanting of the Holy Name and encouraging people to taste this nectar should be enough. Condemnation, denunciation, paternalism, severe criticism - people learned to no more listen to such kind. As pointed out by Tirtha das from prison, "Lord Nityananda has given us an amnesty if we will but take it. Please do not delay."

 

Hare Krsna Revival

BY: TIRTHA DASA

 

Jan 15, WEST VIRGINIA (SUN) — Tirtha, from prison, has just published a new article on his website, the first since May 2005.

 

Since the time of Srila Prabhupada's departure from our external vision there have been no lack of meetings and frank, serious discussions by all manner of sincere, well intentioned devotees in the hope of effecting necessary changes and reforms within the managerial and social structure of the ISKCON society.

 

As an outgrowth of such meetings and discussions, the GBC have issued numerous memorandums and official resolutions, with temple presidents striving to steer a positive course for their humble rank and file devotees, even while many such devotees have grown increasingly anxious and frustrated in their attempts to express and achieve a more active voice and role in me very society that would structure their lives down to the last minute detail.

 

And while many of these discussions have focused on the societies' own ills, in part, arising from past missteps and immature indiscretions occasioned during its formative and expansive years, we would be ill advised to remain fixated merely on such transient anomalies in hopes of finding real solutions for positive reformation of the ISKCON body.

 

Here, careful deliberation and sober thinking among sadhus is needed to enact necessary change and ensure the integrity of our united purpose. The seriousness of this problem duly underscored as numbers of well intentioned, though oft times disillusioned devotees, were swayed to seek shelter among other parallel spiritual movements and community based organizations. However, in the end analysis, the misfortune of such wayward devotees is only compounded, for such newly adopted groups fail to connect their constituents with Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana Movement or satisfy the actual needs of such conflicted devotees. Thus, with their promise fast fading, such devotees are left to grow increasingly and ever painfully distant in their separation from the body of ISKCON.

 

Just as the troubles that have confronted ISKCON's body are largely products of itself, the solutions to these same problems may be also found from within, through an awakening to the unlimited treasure house of ISKCON's own sadhus. Unfortunately, this great treasure will always remain just out of reach for those who have not developed sufficient faith in their esteemed godbrothers and sisters. Without recognizing the invaluable association of devotees who are each an integral aspect of the sacred ISKCON body, devotees will fall further into the depression of uncertainty, most oft characterized by cynicism and deviation.

 

For devotees whose desires are not colored with fruitive gain or personal prestige, it is much easier to recognize how there exists hundreds of exalted, fully qualified Vaisnava sadhus and empowered acaryas within the ISKCON society today. Indeed, this is certainty cause for great celebration. We are overjoyed to honor and offer our humble respects to such esteemed devotees as Gopiparanadhana dasa, His Holiness Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Sivarama Swami, Devamrta Swami, Gunagrahi Swami, Radhanath Swami, Hndayananda dasa Goswami, and all other exalted Vaisnavas. Their presence and personal example has shown us the way to remain chaste to Srila Prabhupada's family and sacred body of the ISKCON society, just as their books have proven to be invaluable tools for aligning and realigning devotees on the actual path enunciated by the previous acaryas.

 

It is important to understand how there is no difference between the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. In Caitanya-caritamrta (1.1.47) we find, "One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord."

 

Srila Prabhupada's Purport: Srilla Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami states that the instructing spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krsna, Sri Krsna Himself teaches us as the instructing spiritual master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion, and from without He teaches from the Bhagavad-gita as the instructing spiritual master. There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. Thus the instructions in the science of devotion are differentiated in terms of the objective and subjective ways of understanding. The acarya in the true sense of the term, who is authorized to deliver Krsna, enriches the disciple with full spiritual knowledge and awakens him to the activities of devotional service..."

 

It is not uncommon for many of us to have had one or more uncomfortable or outright bad experiences while in the association of neophyte devotees, even as we, ourselves, were equally or more neophyte than those in our midst. We may have been ill-informed, molested, manipulated, exploited, abused, ridiculed, neglected and terribly hurt by persons in positions of stewardship, persons to whom we had given our implicit faith and trust. We may have even felt ourselves close to death, or, in the name of religion, dealt death ourselves, only to later feel ourselves overwhelmed by anger, coming to revile those we once unhesitatingly gave our love and trust.

 

These are not inconsequential events, and each should be given the weight and gravity they deserve. Even so, in our deepest, darkest moments of despair, we should know that there always remains one devotee, somewhere, to whom we can talk, and know in our heart to be a true friend.

 

It is a fact that the past cannot be changed by any amount of tears, anger, finger pointing or punitive law suits. Nor can any suggestion to forgive and forget ever fully and completely set things aright. In truth, it is likely impossible to find full and complete rectification in our present day and age, a time filled with so many faults and uncertainties. Yet, the future lies before us. What will we do? Unless we can allow ourselves to find solace and comfort in the sadhus of our ISKCON society, we risk remaining caught up in the prison-like trap of the past, chained tightly within a perpetual state of frustration, cynicism, and depression.

 

Even if we could somehow figure out the reasons for all of the previous ills that have beset us in life and rectify them fully right up to the present, we have no guarantee that in the future, at the next moment, some other seeming untoward disaster may not befall us. After all, this is the material world. There is a virtual certainty that something is always going to go awry at the next moment. Krsna Himself guarantees this, certifying the material world as a place of misery: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, 0 son of Kunti, never takes birth again." (Bg. 8.16)

 

Therefore, not only for devotees, but for everyone within the material world, the prospect for failure is guaranteed unless we come to accept our real roles in Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana Movement. The modern proposition proposed by psychologists that one's past traumas will automatically predominate and determine our future attitudes and activities is false. Otherwise there would be no point in our chanting the holy names. Ceto darpana marjanam. It is the process for both cleansing and reviving our dormant Krsna consciousness.

 

Depending on the extent and degree of our previous of tenses it may initially be difficult to allow ourselves to let go of the past and fully come to terms with our present situation. It may feel worse when the person or persons we feel wronged us refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. Still, what joy can we hope to feel apart from our godbrothers and sisters within ISKCON? True enough, one would be naive to imagine that all wayward devotees, especially those who stubbornly cling to their own canted political and philosophical viewpoints, could ever be swayed toward reconciliation. However, personal feelings aside, it is time for open minded and liberal devotees to make amends, both with themselves and their godbrothers and sisters. The ISKCON society of devotees is mature enough and pure enough to bring all devotees back into its fold, it is now, just as when Sriia Frabhupada was personally present, a great and flourishing branch of the tree of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana Movement.

 

Accordingly, now is the time for greater emphasis on group participation in the basic core function of hari-nama sankirtana, By this chanting in each temple, those devotees who have somehow drifted away from the association of the greater body of ISKCON will certainly feel a stirring deep within their hearts to rejoin their long separated godbfothers and sisters in glorifying the Lord's holy names. If in our hearts we hold a pure desire to be reunited with our beloved godbrothers and sisters, the holy name will draw them nearer. This, especially in America, can be viewed as the beginning of the much needed revival of the Hare Krsna movement.

 

If we can set aside whatever grievances or differences we may have long enough to come together to chant the holy names, our collective and individual problems will soon become inconsequential and fade into obscurity.

 

Indeed, will this not automatically take place in our next lifetime? We will not take our birth remembering our past individual grudges and feelings of trepidation. Therefore, why not resolve these issues in this time and make great spiritual progress? What do we have to lose?

 

We must look closely at ourselves and seriously consider our duty and responsibility. Will we be content to know that we remained stubbornly resistant to reconciling our own internal differences and abandoning the principle of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana Movement, even as the rest of America spirals downward toward a disastrous and hellish fate? Please think about this.

 

If not for the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, where would any of us be today? If we have wronged others, we should come forward and beg for forgiveness from those we have wronged and from all devotees. If we have been victimized, we should pray to Krsna for the strength to begin a new chapter in Krsna consciousness and forgive those persons who might have hurt us. If we have left the association of devotees for any reason, why not return without delay? Lord Nityananda has given us an amnesty if we will but take it. Please do not delay.

 

I know I am the worst offender. Please let me begin this wave by asking each of my beloved godbrothers and sisters for forgiveness for the many wrongs I have committed. Please forgive me and let others be similarly forgiven. Please open your hearts to allow the reunification and revival of the Hare Krsna movement to happen. The past cannot be changed, but it can be overcome by our sincere chanting of the holy names. In the end analysis, we are all victims of the material energy if we are forced to take another birth here in the material world. Beyond this, there are countless living entities who could be benefited by our cooperative preaching efforts, if only we will allow ourselves to come together in a sincere and humble mood. But we will never reach them if we remain tangled up in Maya's trap of self pity, sorrow and indignation.

 

Enough time has passed for each of us to measure the mark we have made on the world around us. If you are satisfied with your life progress, you may be commended. But if you think that you can do more to assist Srila Prabhupada in his mission, then please work to take a more active role in helping each devotee grow as part of the community you are in. Please help each devotee grow, day by day, to know he and she is a loving and loved member of the family of ISKCON devotees.

 

Your worthless servant,

 

Tirtha dasa

 

 

[raghu]

Amazing the hostility that has emerged from what seems to be an otherwise straightforward and well-supported thesis.

 

For all the evidence the GV Swami put forward to support his arguments, the angry rebuttals so far are limited to (1) a statement that the swami just proved himself to be foolish (no explanation why), (2) another statement that the real Jesus and his teachings is different from what we know to be Christianity (again no explanation or evidence supporting this), and (3) some thing to the effect that we should not nit-pick over what others "foolishly actually believe" followed by an article from an ex-convict that has nothing to do with the original posting.

 

What is interesting from the articles by Swami Narasingha are the following indisputable points that he raises:

 

1 - there is no evidence in the scriptures (Vedas and supplementary sources) that Vishnu send His messengers to teach non-Vedic religions

2- there is no cross-cultural references to Jesus or prophets of semitic or arabic religions the Vedic canon

3 - many core ideas of Vedic world view which one would expect to be present in simplified versions of Vaishnava dharma taught elsewhere (such as karma, samsara, go-raksha, etc) are not present in other religions claimed by iskcon people to be valid.

4 - The idea that Christianity, Islam, and/or Judaism are valid paths taught by messengers of Sri Krishna is not feature of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as enunciated by the immediate successors of Sri Chaithanya

5 - For that matter, at least one Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya - Bhaktivinod Thakur, writes very critical comments about Christianity in his writings. Does this mean ISKCON people will say that their own acharya is a foolish person who is criticizing what other people "foolishly actually believe?"

[Kulapavana]

 

Amazing the hostility that has emerged from what seems to be an otherwise straightforward and well-supported thesis.

 

It is a common problem among the Iskcon devotees. I call it the post-parting syndrome... You part with your old tradition to embrace Vaishnavism, but the sentiment remains. Prabhupada encouraged this, to make the transition easier for his disciples, yet there comes a point where you need to look at things in a dispassionate and objective way.

 

And there are also people like Ananda Bhakti Swami that create a total religious fiction by merging Vaishnavism with other traditions, bending facts and doctrines on both sides to suit their theories.

[CCC]

sorry devotes but the first thing that came to my mind reading that articles is Cowdung!

 

this swami talks like a pharisee

[BhaktiK]

b.g.narasingha:

 

When it is mentioned that religion is

taught according to time, place and circumstances then that is

referring to bona fide teachers of eternal religion, like Sri

Ramanujacarya and Sri Madhvacarya and not upstarts like Mohammed,

Jesus or St. Paul.

theist:

 

Narasingha just revealed himself as a foolish person.

 

Sri Caitanya

 

CC Ādi 17.152: The Lord said, "My dear uncle, I have come to your home just to ask you some questions.""Yes," the Kazi replied, "You are welcome. Just tell me what is in Your mind."

 

CC Ādi 17.153: The Lord said, "You drink cows' milk; therefore the cow is your mother. And the bull produces grains for your maintenance; therefore he is your father.

 

CC Ādi 17.154: "Since the bull and cow are your father and mother, how can you kill and eat them? What kind of religious principle is this? On what strength are you so daring that you commit such sinful activities?"

 

CC Ādi 17.155: The Kazi replied, "As You have Your scriptures called the Vedas and Purāṇas, we have our scripture, known as the holy Koran.

 

CC Ādi 17.156: "According to the Koran, there are two ways of advancement — through increasing the propensity to enjoy, and through decreasing the propensity to enjoy. On the path of decreasing attachment [nivṛtti-mārga], the killing of animals is prohibited.

 

CC Ādi 17.157: "On the path of material activities, there is regulation for killing cows. If such killing is done under the guidance of scripture, there is no sin."

 

CC Ādi 17.158: As a learned scholar, the Kazi challenged Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "In Your Vedic scriptures there is an injunction for killing a cow. On the strength of this injunction, great sages performed sacrifices involving cow-killing."

 

CC Ādi 17.159: Refuting the Kazi's statement, the Lord immediately replied, "The Vedas clearly enjoin that cows should not be killed. Therefore every Hindu, whoever he may be, avoids indulging in cow-killing.

 

CC Ādi 17.160: "In the Vedas and Purāṇas there are injunctions declaring that if one can revive a living being, one can kill it for experimental purposes.

 

CC Ādi 17.161: "Therefore the great sages sometimes killed old cows, and by chanting Vedic hymns they brought them back to life for perfection.

 

CC Ādi 17.162: "The killing and rejuvenation of such old and invalid cows was not truly killing but an act of great benefit.

 

CC Ādi 17.163: "Formerly there were powerful brāhmaṇas who could make such experiments using Vedic hymns, but now, because of the Kali-yuga, brāhmaṇas are not so powerful. Therefore the killing of cows and bulls for rejuvenation is forbidden.

 

CC Ādi 17.164: "'In this Age of Kali, five acts are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice, the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of the order of sannyāsa, the offering of oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and a man's begetting children in his brother's wife.'

 

CC Ādi 17.165: "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance.

 

CC Ādi 17.166: "Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.

 

CC Ādi 17.167: "There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument."

 

 

 

The Lord said "Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance."

 

There can be little doubt that the same thing applies to Christians and Jews who also kill cows and eat them.

 

Their faith in their prophets won't save them from going to hell for many thousands of years. There are many mistakes and illusions in the scriptures of the meat eaters. Following what their scriptures teach, the followers of the false Middle Eastern prophets are going to hell. For many thousands of years.

[theist]

The point is Narasingha called Christ an upstart when his own gurus SP and SBST called Him a shaktivesa avatar. That means he is opposing his own guru. You tell me who is an upstart.

[raghu]

 

It is a common problem among the Iskcon devotees. I call it the post-parting syndrome... You part with your old tradition to embrace Vaishnavism, but the sentiment remains. Prabhupada encouraged this, to make the transition easier for his disciples, yet there comes a point where you need to look at things in a dispassionate and objective way.

 

And there are also people like Ananda Bhakti Swami that create a total religious fiction by merging Vaishnavism with other traditions, bending facts and doctrines on both sides to suit their theories.

 

I'm glad someone else seems to be noticing the strangeness of it all.

 

Let's face it - it's not just a problem among the rank-and-file iskcon members but even amongst their upper echelons. The idea that Jesus and Mohammed are shaktiavesha avatars or empowered preachers or whatever is so firmly entrenched in their thinking that they just don't seem to grasp how obviously bizarre such claims are.

 

I have personally witnessed friends of mine being indoctrinated into iskcon and worked over with this idea, to the point that when they start questioning it they are either required to accept it on faith or they are suddenly excommunicated from the group for not accepting it.

 

Let's think about this logically.

 

If the purpose of some of these "mleccha dharmas" is to emphasize right conduct to degraded civilizations whose members are not yet ready to embrace higher philosophy (i.e. Vishnu-bhakti), then why do iskcon people preach Vishnu-bhakti now, in contemporary Western civilization which is arguably *more* degraded than 1st century Rome or 6th century Arabia? Why were people of ancient Rome or Arabia unfit to hear Hari-katha but somehow the 1960's LSD-intoxicated hippies of America were not?

 

Vishnu is all-knowing and would know what damage followers of Christianity and Islam would do to Hindu/Vedic civilization. Whether or not such followers are following their religions is immaterial; the fact remains that they were hostile to Hinduism on the basis of their Christianity or Islam. There can be no doubting the horrors Islam has done and continues to do to the fabric of Hindu society - the razing of temples, the abduction and raping of captive women, etc. And Christian proselytizers undercut the reverence people have for Vedas and brahmins in so many intellectually dishonest ways. Why would Lord Vishnu send prophets to the earth to found such religions when He knows that their religions would ultimately grow and threaten Vaishnavism?

[raghu]

 

The point is Narasingha called Christ an upstart when his own gurus SP and SBST called Him a shaktivesa avatar. That means he is opposing his own guru. You tell me who is an upstart.

 

Well, Bhaktivinod Thakura did not call Christ a shaktiavesha avatar and in fact criticized Christianity quite harshly in his writings. So, does this mean SP and SBST are upstarts for opposing their guru's guru?

 

Prior to SP and possibly SBST there are no references in the gaudiya vaishnava writings about christ or mohammed or any other religion's prophet as being a shaktiavesha avatar. It is safe to say that prior to iskcon the idea of "jesus as an empowered Vaishnava" is not a feature of gaudiya vaishnavism. Rather interesting, don't you think, that the introduction of "Jesus as shaktiavesha avatar" happens to correspond with the introduction of gaudiya vaishnavism in the west?

[gHari]

 

Well, Bhaktivinod Thakura did not call Christ a shaktiavesha avatar and in fact criticized Christianity quite harshly in his writings. So, does this mean SP and SBST are upstarts for opposing their guru's guru?

 

Prior to SP and possibly SBST there are no references in the gaudiya vaishnava writings about christ or mohammed or any other religion's prophet as being a shaktiavesha avatar. It is safe to say that prior to iskcon the idea of "jesus as an empowered Vaishnava" is not a feature of gaudiya vaishnavism. Rather interesting, don't you think, that the introduction of "Jesus as shaktiavesha avatar" happens to correspond with the introduction of gaudiya vaishnavism in the west?

I don't know that "Bhaktivinoda Thakura did not call Christ a shaktiavesha avatar". Nor do I know that he ridiculed Jesus anywhere, although he disassembled current Christian philosophy, while on another occasion he lumped Christ's following with Islam and Vaishnavism.

 

I guess I'm puzzled and worried about our motivation here, raghu. What does it matter? Or is it a Paramatma thing? Or a siddhanta thing? Break it down - where's it coming from?

[raghu]

 

I don't know that "Bhaktivinoda Thakura did not call Christ a shaktiavesha avatar". Nor do I know that he ridiculed Jesus anywhere, although he disassembled current Christian philosophy, while on another occasion he lumped Christ's following with Islam and Vaishnavism.

 

Bhaktivinod criticized the Adam and Eve myth and said many other uncomplimentary things about Christianity in one of his books - I think it was Tattva-Viveka but I don't recall exactly. The Swami Narasingha quoted from it also in that article. Strange that he would do that to a religion whose founder he respected as a shakti-avesh, don't you think?

 

In any case, it is an indisputable fact that prior to iskcon's guru's guru there is no mention of jesus = shakti avesha avatar in gaudiya literature. But if you know of evidence to the contrary, please feel free to correct me.

 

 

I guess I'm puzzled and worried about our motivation here, raghu. What does it matter? Or is it a Paramatma thing? Or a siddhanta thing? Break it down - where's it coming from?

 

Huh?

 

What is the motivation in presenting Jesus as an "empowered vaishnava" to a primarily Christian audience? It is obvious - to get followers who could not otherwise relate to Vaishnavism.

 

When someone is motivated to propagate something that is logically unsound and factually incorrect, does that not worry you?

 

One does not need special motivation to question a false allegation or want to establish truth. But if it matters to you, I guess you could say that I am motivated by a need to find out how anyone can claim that Jesus is a Vaishnava and still be taken seriously either by Jesus followers or Vaishnavas.

[gHari]

Of course, the Swami is a very elevated devotee, but I think he needs to get out of the ashram more. From the trenches out here in the modes of passion and ignorance it is apparent that most folks just aren't ready for heavy religion.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda reveals the position of the swanlike vaisnava in Sri Krsna Samhita: "It is not proper for swanlike persons to reject the religious principles that people in general follow according to their situation."

[gHari]

 

But if it matters to you, I guess you could say that I am motivated by a need to find out how anyone can claim that Jesus is a Vaishnava and still be taken seriously either by Jesus followers or Vaishnavas.

I'm afraid that is not possible. I know. But you cannot. And you don't need to know. It quite factually has nothing to do with you. I'd recommend Paramatma if you are driven. But He will want to correct the motivation first; first deserve then desire.

[HerServant]

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Christianity is incomplete Vaisnavism; not

fullfledged, but the basis of devotional theism. We find the

principle of "Die to live" there to a certain extent, at least

physically. The Christians say that the ideal shown by Jesus is self-

sacrifice. In our consideration, however, that is not fullfledged

theism, but only the basis. It is an unclear, vague conception of

Godhead: "We are for Him." But how much? And in what shape, in what

attitude? All these things are unexplained and unclear in

Christianity. Everything is hazy, as if seen from far off. It does

not take any proper shape. The cover is not fully removed, allowing

us to come face to face with the object of our service. The

conception of service to God is there, and a strong impetus to attain

that, so the foundation is good, but the structure over the

foundation is unclear, vague, and imperfect."

 

...... Narasingha Maharaja: Yes, Christianity is imperfect, vague and

unclear as Sridhara Maharaja has mentioned ......

 

Sridhara Maharaja does not have the full view of Christianity. There are references on this forum, regarding his knowledge of Christianity. In fact, what was presented to Sridhara Maharaja as Christianity was passed to him by Bhakti Vinod Thakur. Bhakti Vinod Thakur's exposure to Christianity was via NON PARAMPARA , NON Guru Sashtra Saddhu (GSS) sources.

 

"He (Bhakti Vinod Thakur) deeply read the works of Mr. Channing and the controversy between Raja Ram Mohan and the Christian Missionaries. He read the koran. He deeply read the works of Theodore Parker, Newman and others." - http://www.bvml.org/SBTP/index.htm

 

Theodore Parker and Newman were non christians who were literally poisoned with mayavadi philosophy and polluted and distorted "Christianity".

 

 

Theodore Parker (August 24, 1810, Lexington, Massachusetts–May 10, 1860, Florence, Italy) was an American Transcendentalist and reforming minister of the Unitarian church.

 

Ultimately, he rejected all miracles, and saw the Bible as full of contradictions and mistakes. He retained his faith in God.

 

Parker was attacked when he denied Biblical miracles and the authority of the Bible and Jesus. Some felt he was not a Christian, nearly all the pulpits in the Boston area were closed to him,[3] and he lost friends."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Parker

 

Parker also is considered an evangelist of Transcendentalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism

 

 

Among Transcendentalists' core beliefs was an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the physical and empirical and is only realized through the individual's intuition, rather than through the doctrines of established religions. Prominent Transcendentalists included Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Margaret Fuller, as well as Bronson Alcott, Orestes Brownson, William Ellery Channing, Frederick Henry Hedge, Theodore Parker, ...

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism

 

Parker was a MAYAVADI !!

 

Therefore, Bhakti Vinod Thakur's sincere inquiry of Christianity was via literature introduced to him by bogus, mayavadi "christians" completely disconnected from Jesus Parampara and Sampradaya.

 

Therefore, the acharyas are rightly saying (the bogus) "christianity is incomplete".

 

Finally, saints such as Bhakti Vinod Thakur are not and do not claim to be omniscient having ALL knowledge of God Himself. They are saints in the line of Sri Chaitanya and don't have to be authoritative on Christian theology. In general, they spoke very little on Christianity and focused on the teachings of their GSS lineage.

 

If they had been presented with the facts, and authentic scriptures and saintly commentary, they would have completely different views. In fact, Bhakti Vinod Thakur said that "Jesus was the Savior of the West" and that "Mahaprabhu was the Savior of the East"

 

The Jesus Christ, and the "Christianity" presented by these imposters and mayavadi impersonalists is throroughly DIS-honest.

 

Therefore, I choose to follow Srila Prabhupada before I speak on other religions:

 

I must admit my frailties in presenting ?r?mad-Bh?gavatam, but still I am hopeful of its good reception by the thinkers and leaders of society on the strength of the following statement of ?r?mad-Bh?gavatam (1.5.11):

 

tad-v?g-visargo janat?gha-viplavo

yasmin prati-?lokam abaddhavaty api

n?m?ny anantasya ya?o ’?kit?ni yac

ch??vanti g?yanti g??anti s?dhava?

 

“On the other hand, that literature which is full with descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant to bring about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though irregularly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.”

 

Anyone commenting on authentic Christianity, namely the Christianity taught by those saints and sages of the Jesus Gurus Saddhu (and their sahstra) must be IN Jesus parampara.

 

 

This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost. Bhagavad Gita As It is 4:2

[CCC]

If you want to know about Christianity don't go to a vedic swami, read the bible and ask to a Christian Swami.

 

The cobbler should stick to his last

[gHari]

 

If you want to know about Christianity don't go to a vedic swami, read the bible and ask to a Christian Swami.

Better yet, answer this question: "How does one develop faith in Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu"? First deserve, then desire.

[CCC]

A thing that piss me off is such people who makes difference between other spiritual paths. I don't call the other paths religions, because religion are made by the man. I mean that the scriptures are revealed by God and religions are an attempt for understanding the scriptures. I don't believe in religions but I believe in the scriptures. So if the three main scriptures says that God is one, there are two posibilities.

 

a)All are right (we are talking of the same god, the one without second)

b)All are wrong (each scripture have his own sectarian god, obviously that the masses will ignore this).

 

I know that religious and karmies people will take the second sentence

[CCC]

 

Anyone commenting on authentic Christianity, namely the Christianity taught by those saints and sages of the Jesus Gurus Saddhu (and their sahstra) must be IN Jesus parampara.

 

The book of mormon says that this Jesus Parampara was broken after the demise of the Apostles and was reestablished with the Book of mormon and Joseph Smith.

 

It is said that Joseph Smith was wondering when was a child, where are the saints of Lord Jesus? and a Angel cameto meet Him and explain him all this things, it is very interesting. this time when the parampara was broken is called apostasy, anyway I don't believe in the Mormoniac Church, but I belive in the book of mormon

[suchandra]

 

Let's think about this logically.

 

If the purpose of some of these "mleccha dharmas" is to emphasize right conduct to degraded civilizations whose members are not yet ready to embrace higher philosophy (i.e. Vishnu-bhakti), then why do iskcon people preach Vishnu-bhakti now, in contemporary Western civilization which is arguably *more* degraded than 1st century Rome or 6th century Arabia? Why were people of ancient Rome or Arabia unfit to hear Hari-katha but somehow the 1960's LSD-intoxicated hippies of America were not?

 

Vishnu is all-knowing and would know what damage followers of Christianity and Islam would do to Hindu/Vedic civilization.

This is a spot on ananlysis, at that point when it became obvious even for common people that the major religions Christianity and Islam have 100% failed to solve the actual problems of human society and people in general lost faith in the spirituality of the church, at that point Krishna gave greenlight for "higher philosophy (i.e. Vishnu-bhakti)" to enter Western civilization. From this point of view, the actual responsibility for the Vaishnava movement and their leaders and how they took this task so devil-may-care, appears in new light.

[theist]

And what is the fruit of Hare Krsna's in America? We have all been benefited but how many of us are there? And after just a couple decades it has been declining.

 

So trying to compare the Hare Krsna movement's effects on the world since the 1960's and the influence of Christ (not christianity (the idiots amongst us will not be able to see a difference) over the last two thousand years makes little sense.

 

Raghu your arguments are without merit in IMO.

[suchandra]

 

And what is the fruit of Hare Krsna's in America? We have all been benefited but how many of us are there? And after just a couple decades it has been declining.

 

So trying to compare the Hare Krsna movement's effects on the world since the 1960's and the influence of Christ (not christianity (the idiots amongst us will not be able to see a difference) over the last two thousand years makes little sense.

 

Raghu your arguments are without merit in IMO.

 

When contemplating the present situation with our material mind and senses this might be correct. However, "that is the beginning."

 

Impersonalist: And what is predicted for this age?

 

 

Prabhupāda: This side is this Hare Krishna mantra—not only this side, all over the world. That is prediction of Lord Caitanya: “In every village, every town of the world, this Hare Krishna mantra will be chanted.” That is the beginning.

 

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

April 7, 1972, Melbourne

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720407rc.mel.htm

[HerServant]

 

When contemplating the present situation with our material mind and senses this might be correct. However, "that is the beginning."

 

Impersonalist: And what is predicted for this age?

 

 

Prabhup?da: This side is this Hare Krishna mantra—not only this side, all over the world. That is prediction of Lord Caitanya: “In every village, every town of the world, this Hare Krishna mantra will be chanted.” That is the beginning.

 

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhup?da

April 7, 1972, Melbourne

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720407rc.mel.htm

 

Congregational chanting of God's Holy Name was not a new phenomenon or form of worship to the West. Sri Chaitanya's Sankirtan Movement is primarily to evangelize Mayavadi Hindu cults, Muslims, and Buddhists.

 

Western evangelization is something else. The Sankirtan is merely here to revive the Sankirtan revived by Jesus.

 

It is a proven fact that chanting and singing the Holy Name was a form of worship in ancient times before Christ.

 

Psalm 7:17

I will give thanks to the LORD because of his righteousness and will sing praise to the name of the LORD Most High.

 

Psalm 9:2

I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name, O Most High.

 

Psalm 9:11

Sing praises to the LORD, enthroned in Zion; proclaim among the nations what he has done.

 

Psalm 13:6

I will sing to the LORD, for he has been good to me.

 

Psalm 18:49

Therefore I will praise you among the nations, O LORD; I will sing praises to your name.

 

Psalm 30:4

Sing to the LORD, you saints of his; praise his holy name.

 

Psalm 32:11

Rejoice in the LORD and be glad, you righteous; sing, all you who are upright in heart!

 

Psalm 33:1

Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him.

 

Psalm 33:3

Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

 

Psalm 40:3

He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD.

 

Psalm 42:8

By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me— a prayer to the God of my life.

 

Psalm 45:1

[ For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song. ] My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king; my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.

 

Psalm 47:6

Sing praises to God, sing praises; sing praises to our King, sing praises.

 

Psalm 47:7

For God is the King of all the earth; sing to him a psalm of praise.

 

Psalm 51:14

Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.

 

... and in the book of Psalms alone another 50 or more references

 

Sri Chaitanya Sankirtan evangelism is meant primarily for Muslims as is evidence by Sri Chaitanya Lila!

 

The Madhya-khanda narrates Chaitanya’s growing external displays of devotion, the disciples which join his devotional creed, the conversion of the debauchees Jagai and Madhai, and Chaitanya’s civil disobedience movement against the Muslim Chand Kazi who tries to stop the congregational chanting of the names of Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada's mission for the west, is to revive the dormant congregational chanting of God's Holy Name in a non sectarian movement.