No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[mahak 0]

he blows a futile horn.

 

or

 

nothing up to that point has been left unresolved

 

or

 

its doom alont that counts

 

give me shelter from the storm

 

mahak

[Sarva gattah 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Both statements are true and correct

 

 

BALAVIDYA DASA - And this means that this enviousness does not occur in Goloka, whether one falls or dreams that they fall.

 

It is due to the miss use of one's free will to attempt be master instead of servant. Being marginal (tatastha s'akti) means one can choose the perpetual devotional reality of Vaikuntha, or the activate the baddha jiva aspect of their marginal identity and enter the dreams of Maha Vishnu in His mahat tattva creation. We are not like the borge (star trek) where we are assimulated into Krishna's Goloka or Vishnu's Vaikuntha. There is always free will and most (75%) never choose to seek out their imaginary world in the mahat tattva like us fools have done.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

There is always free will and most (75%) never choose to seek out their imaginary world in the mahat tattva like us fools have done.

 

75% of the creation is the spiritual world and 25% is the material world. These figures DO NOT refer to the percentages of jivas who choose to reject Krsna's service and those who accept it.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10, From the Purport,

 

As quoted by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, we can know from the Nārada-pañcarātra that the transcendental world or Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere is enriched with transcendental qualities. These transcendental qualities, as revealed through the devotional service of the Lord, are distinct from the mundane qualities of ignorance, passion and goodness. Such qualities are not attainable by the nondevotee class of men. In the Padma Purāṇa, Uttara-khaṇḍa, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation is the three-fourths manifestation. The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River, and beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation. This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity. In the Āgama Purāṇas also, the transcendental abode is described as follows: The associated members there are free to go everywhere within the creation of the Lord, and there is no limit to such creation, particularly in the region of the three-fourths magnitude. Since the nature of that region is unlimited, there is no history of such association, nor is there end of it.

We have been told by the acaryas that 90% of all jivas never come to the material world, so that leaves 10% who become fallen. I cannot at present find the reference for this, but I believe it's in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

[Beggar 0]

Wait a minute, near the end of that purport, look at this:

"In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity."

I know Sarva gattah is going to say that they are just dreaming that there is a break in their association with the Lord. But then why would such a thing be stated in the first place? It wouldn't make any sense to write such a thing. This proves that your "dreamer" theory is itself a dream.

[CCC 0]

 

We have been told by the acaryas that 90% of all jivas never come to the material world, so that leaves 10% who become fallen. I cannot at present find the reference for this, but I believe it's in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

interesting, try to quote this please if you can or want

 

anyway that 10% percent is a very big number, endless

[Vigraha 0]

 

Wait a minute, near the end of that purport, look at this:

"In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity."

I know Sarva gattah is going to say that they are just dreaming that there is a break in their association with the Lord. But then why would such a thing be stated in the first place? .

 

Free will

 

 

interesting, try to quote this please if you can or want

 

anyway that 10% percent is a very big number, endless

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar 0]

 

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

Communist Propaganda left over from the Soviet Era!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[suchandra 1]

 

Communist Propaganda left over from the Soviet Era!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

 

I understand this was meant to point out that the jivas always have a free will and one meaning of free will is the option to act wrongly.

 

 

wikipedia:

 

 

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought.

Prajāpati: "Krishna has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to…

Prabhupāda: Krishna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: “I am now talking to you the most confidential words.” Sarva- guhyatamam. “You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me.” This is the most confidential. “If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you’ll not be happy.” There is also free will. When you come to the Krishna platform you serve Krishna with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Krishna nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Krishna. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Māyāvādī philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that “Stop this free will, and then you become happy.” But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, “Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong.” That is their proposition. Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Nirviśeṣa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirviśeṣa. And śūnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that."

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

December 13, 1973, Los Angeles

Hayagrīva: George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel sees the religion of India as a religion in which man is handed laws from a God who is exterior to man, from a will that is entirely foreign to man. And he sees this to be opposed to what he considers to be a more advanced religion, in which the individual soul is lifted to the supernatural through the use of reason, internal sanction or subjective confirmation. In other words, he sees the Indian religion as being blind following of an exterior will. He says that man can only attain God through the exercise of his own free will.

Prabhupāda: Then why the animals cannot? Animal is given complete free will.

Hayagrīva: He says animals have no will.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If he has no will, why he goes to different direction?

Hayagrīva: He says that animals have no right to life because they have no will.

Prabhupāda: Just see. What is the symptom of life? First of all settle up, how do you know? We can distinguish that this table has no life, that a small ant on the table there is life. How you distinguish, that here is life, there is no life? Then what is the symptom of life? If the symptom of life is there in animal, there is life. Why they will say there is no life? What is the philosophy? There is life. He is eating; you are eating. He is sleeping; you are sleeping. He is having sex; you are having sex. He is also afraid of enemy; you are also afraid. Then why do you say that you have life, he has no life? What is the symptom of life? This is the primary symptom of life. So if he has got these primary symptoms of life, how do you say he has no life? That means you have no intelligence even.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

HEGEL.HAY

[gHari 0]

 

From http://education./reference/dictionary/entry/paradox

par·a·dox (pr-dks) KEY

 

NOUN:

1. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
   
2. One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" (Mary Shelley).
   
3. An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
   
4. A statement contrary to received opinion.

[mahak 0]

They are the norm, not the exception. Life itself is a paradox.

 

There is no rise and fall at all, this is the perversion of the mind, mental phantasmagoria. So those who say we fell, maybe influenced too much my childrens bible stories, these folks are no more or less dillusional than those who insist that we can rise to the platform of actually being a cowherd hangin with Mr. K.

 

We are who we are, and as the initial instruction by Prabhupada insists (initiation by the way, these initial instructions on the methodology and the reasoniong for taking up this sadhana bhakti procewss), "somehow or other we have become illusioned by maya." Sounds like a temporary spell, not really that unlike what jaya and vijaya agreed to when they incarnated as Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa, Ravana, Kamsa, Jagai and Madhai. Is this a fall down?, Some may insist that these were great demons, and while surely these activities performed by jaya and Vijaya while in this realm may be truely demoniac, they are nonetheless nitya siddha spiritual associates of the Supreme Lord. As doorkeepers for narayana, they were bored, therefore, the kumaras tricked them into brutal service in the rasa of chivalry, and the weapons they used against Krsna were accepted equally as the kisses from the damsels of Vraja.

 

Jaya and Vijaya did not fall, they actually increased their service of the pleasure of the chivalrous Lords Nrsmha, Viraha, Rama, Krsna, lords nityananda and sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu. The stories of their demoniac activities of opposing the Lord are stories for us to guide us away from similar behavior, but they should never bee seen as anyone other than intimate associates of the Lord. They were influenced by Yogamaya, not mahamaya.

 

Which brings up to paradoxical multidimensional (and as of today, theoretical) physics. Simultaneous realities. Some cringe, sayin "mahaksadasa is at it again with his drug induced 60s hippie speculations". So I gotta cite examples in our literature of such simultaneous reality.

 

The poor brahmana waqs too dirty to go into a temple, he had no transportation. He had no gold ghee lamps. But where did the blisters on his fingers come from if there was not a paradoxical other dimension he was operating from? This is a most important story that we all should revisit from time to time, just to experiance transcendence.

 

Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension, one where we can actually act as nitya siddha. No, we are still old, feeble, cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones, but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and remorseful Sri Duryodhana. We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously trying to find a tow truck that can make it up the muddy road to get the beater oldsmobile to the mechanic.

 

The guy pushing metal cars that dont run anymore didnt fall from anywhere, and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position. Its the same person, a paradox per gHaris #4 above.

 

So, we can disregard this issue altogether as a non issue. Multidimensional physics is beyond theory, is a fact of puranic literature. That one cannot see clearly the other dimension while being so attached to the related to dimension is of no copnsequence to reality.

 

Okay, carry on. gHari is the only one making sense here. hare krsna (see, that came from the other dimension, I just proved what the theoretical physicists are spending soo much on). ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

 

source: "As I have explained on the cover of the record album...." Multidimensional physics. String theory, multiverse, simultaneous reality, time travel, using Death herself as a means to step into the car (Puskara) that doesnt break down, ala Dhruva Maharaja.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension,

one where we can actually act as nitya siddha.

No, we are still old, feeble,

cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones,

but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks

of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak

Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and

remorseful Sri Duryodhana.

We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds

in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at

the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously

trying to find a tow truck that can make it up

the muddy road to get the beater

oldsmobile to the mechanic.

The guy pushing metal cars that don't run

anymore didn't fall from anywhere,

and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna

in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position.

It's the same person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The new enlightened poetry of the 21st Century.

 

[mahak 0]

Haribol. I always mention "the cover of the recorde album" because this production is the first Srila Prabhupada class given to the west at large. It is a classical answer to this controversy, and his teachings of other dimensions, other "strata", is quite clear. Please examine the following for the TRUE STORY:

 

"As explained on the cover of the record album, this transcendental vibration--by chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare--is the sublime method for reviving our Krsna consciousness. As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our asociation with matter since time immemorial, our consciousness is now poluted by material atmosphere. In this polluted concept of life, we are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in our complexities. This illusion is called maya, or hard struggle for existence over the stringent laws of material nature. This illusory struggle against the material nature can at once be stopped by revival of our Krsna consciousness.

 

 

Krsna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind. This consciousness is the original energy of the living entity. When we hear the transcendental vibration, this consciousness is revived. And the process is recommended by authorities for this age. By practical experience also, we can perceive that by chanting this maha-mantra, or the Great Chanting for Deliverance, one can at once feel transcendental ecstasy from the spiritual stratum. When one is factually on the plane of spiritual understanding, surpassing the stages of sense, mind and intelligence, one is situated on the transcendental plane. This chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is directly enacted from the spiritual platform, surpassing all lower states of consciousness--namely sensual, mental and intellectual. There is no need of understanding the language of the mantra, nor is there any need of mental speculation nor any intellectual adjustment for chanting this maha-mantra. It springs automatically from the spiritual platform, and as such, anyone can take part in this transcendental sound vibration, without any previous qualification, and dance in ecstasy.

 

We have seen it practically. Even a child can take part in the chanting, or even a dog can take part in it. The chanting should be heard, however, from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that immediate effect can be achieved. As far as possible, chanting from the lips of a nondevotee should be avoided, as much as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect.

 

The word Hara is a form of addressing the energy of the Lord. Both Krsna and Rama are forms of addressing directly the Lord, and they mean " the highest pleasure, eternal." Hara is the supreme pleasure potency of the Lord. This potency, when addressed are Hare, helps us in reaching the Supreme Lord.

 

The material energy, called as maya, is also one of the multipotencies of the Lord, as much as we are also marginal potency of the Lord. The living entities are described as superior energy than matter. When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Hara,it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity.

 

The three words, namely Hara, Krsna and Rama, are transcendental seeds of the maha-mantra, and the chanting is a spiritual call for the Lord and His internal energy, Hara, for giving protection to the conditioned soul. The chanting is exactly like a genuine cry by the chold for the mother. Mother Hara helps in achieving the grace of the supreme father, Hari, or Krsna, and the Lord reveals Himself to such a sincere devotee.

 

No other means, therefore, of spiritual realization is as effective in this age, as chanting the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

So, when the cosmos are viewed as starta, dimensions, this all is so much easier. As marginal potency, we have ability to be conditioned by inferior or superior forces, its all in the consciousness of which layer we choose to live in.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Beggar 0]

Judge For Yourself -- Srila Prabhupada on the Jiva Issue BY: SUNANDA DAS (ACBSP)

Jan 13, NEW YORK (SUN) — As we all know, Srila Prabhupada said everything is in his books. We also know he said his books would be the lawbooks for mankind for the next 10,000 years. We also know that in any forum of discussion, at least in ISKCON, his books, including legal documents for specific purposes, rate as the highest level of authority concerning the siddhanta of our disciplic succession, with lectures, letters and conversations following suit in that order.

Over the last three years I have re-read the entire Srimad Bhagavatam, including Krsna Book, with particular attention to seeing what Srila Prabhupada, in his purports, had to say about the fall of the jiva, one way or the other. And, while many of the quotes below are familiar to those who have studied this topic, many may be new. However, when read as a whole, they take on a form of their own, one confirming the other in an almost check and balance fashion that impresses the reader with an undeniable impression of the truth in this matter. And although some of the quotes could be interpreted either way on their own, when read in conjunction with the others, the need for interpretation, and all misunderstanding disappears. A transcendental light comes on in your head that clears away the ignorance.

I too, as a new devotee, was taught that we fell from the abode of the Lord and our particular inherent rasa with him due to envy. For years I never questioned that. I also understood that it really didn’t matter how I got here, the point was to get out. So I never thought much about it. I just followed orders and worked hard for Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. I can’t complain about that. They were the best days of my life. But there comes a point in your devotional life where it’s really important and helpful to understand the nuances of our disciplic siddhanta in detail. Without a clear understanding we might find ourselves preaching incorrectly and that would certainly be a disservice. And with all the deviations of various sorts going on nowadays it seems even more important that we need to have a solid grasp of the conclusions of our siddhanta as well as the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

The quotes below are in chronological order starting with the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and represent everything that I could find related to the issue. For all practical purposes, no stone was left unturned. There are quite a few so sit back, relax and read to your heart’s content. The concluding quote is taken from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s article, “Brahmana and Vaishnava”. It speaks for itself.

So His expansions of various forms which take place via the internal energies are superior forms, whereas the expansions which take place via the external energies are inferior forms. The living entities are also His expansions. The living entities who are expanded by His internal potency are eternally liberated persons, whereas those who are expanded in terms of the material energies are eternally conditioned souls. (1.2.28-29)

As we have discussed several times, there are two types of living entities. Most of them are ever liberated, or nitya-muktas, while some of them are ever conditioned. The ever-conditioned souls are apt to develop a mentality of lording over the material nature, and therefore the material cosmic creation is manifested to give the ever-conditioned souls two kinds of facilities. (1.10.22)

The destination of the devotee (the bhagavata) is to enter into one of the Vaikuntha planets, in each of which the Personality of Godhead, in His unlimited personal expansions, enjoys Himself in the association of unlimited numbers of pure devotee associates. The conditioned souls in the material world, after gaining emancipation by devotional service, are promoted to these planets. But the number of ever-liberated souls is far, far greater than the number of conditioned souls in the material world, and the ever-liberated souls in the Vaikuntha planets never care to visit this miserable material world. (2.2.31)

Such planets, being spiritual, are in fact transcendental to the material modes; therefore they are constituted in the mode of unalloyed goodness only. The conception of spiritual bliss (brahmananda) is fully present in those planets. Each of them is eternal, indestructible and free from all kinds of inebrieties experienced in the material world. Each of them is self-illuminating and more powerfully dazzling than (if we can imagine) the total sunshine of millions of mundane suns. The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Narayana, who is the predominating Deity of such Vaikuntha planets…The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In other words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amåta. As described in the Vedas, the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad Gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries. (2.6.18)

The living entities, as distinguished from incognizant matter, may be qualitatively equal to the Lord in cognizance, but the living entity can never be equal to the Lord in full knowledge of past, present and future. And because the living entity is partially cognizant, he is therefore sometimes forgetful of his own identity. This forgetfulness is specifically manifested in the field of the ekapad-vibhuti of the Lord, or in the material world, but in the tripad-vibhuti field of actions, or in the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence. (2.6.21)

In the liberated state of affairs, the full-fledged affection for the Lord is awakened. As such, there is an unlimited flow of everlasting happiness, without the fear of its being broken as we have experienced here in the material world. The relationship with the Lord is never broken; thus there is no grief and no fear…All the senses, both of the Lord and of the devotees, are without material contamination. They are so because they are beyond the material cause and effects, as clearly mentioned herein (sad-asatau param). The illusory, material energy cannot work there, being ashamed before the Lord and His transcendental devotees. (2.7.47)

The progressive devotee of the Lord must inquire from the bona fide spiritual master how living entities merged in the body of the Lord again come back at the time of creation. There are two kinds of living entities. There are the ever-liberated, unconditioned living beings as well as the ever-conditioned living beings. (2.8.22)

The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy-by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord…Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is…In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (2.9.1)

As we have discussed several times, there are two types of living entities. Most of them are ever liberated, or nitya-muktas, while some of them are ever conditioned. The ever-conditioned souls are apt to develop a mentality of lording over the material nature, and therefore the material cosmic creation is manifested to give the ever-conditioned souls two kinds of facilities. (2.10.6)

An eternally liberated soul is a devotee of the Lord who never forgets Him. (3.2.2)

Amongst the devotees of the Lord there are several divisions, mainly nitya-siddhas and sadhana-siddhas. The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere, even though they sometimes come onto the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. The sadhana-siddha devotees are chosen from the conditioned souls. (3.3.26)

The Lord wanted to create the cosmic manifestation to give another chance to the conditioned souls who were dormant in forgetfulness. The cosmic manifestation gives the conditioned souls a chance to go back home, back to Godhead, and that is its main purpose… The whole process is to enliven the sleeping conditioned souls to the real life of spiritual consciousness so that they may thus become as perfect as the ever-liberated souls in the Vaikunthalokas. (3.5.24)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord. (3.5.29)

The consciousness of the living being is always present and never changes under any circumstances, as above mentioned…How then can the living entity become forgetful of his real identity as pure spirit soul and identify with matter unless influenced by something beyond himself? The conclusion is that the living entity is influenced by the avidya potency, as confirmed in both the Visnu Purana and the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam. (3.7.5)

Therefore, spiritual nature is called avabodha-rasa, or avarodha-rasa. Avarodha means "that which completely nullifies." In the Transcendence there is no chance of material contact by any means. (3.9.2)

[Beggar 0]

Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally. This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. (3.9.11)

TRANSLATION

The Kumaras said:

In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just as there is complete harmony within space between the big and the small skies. Why then is there a seed of fear in this field of harmony? These two persons are dressed like inhabitants of Vaikuntha, but wherefrom can their disharmony come into existence? (3.15.33)

PURPORT

The principle of creation is that the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, is by nature joyful, and He becomes many in order to enhance His transcendental joy. The living entities like ourselves, being part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, are meant to satisfy the senses of the Lord. Thus, whenever there is a discrepancy in that harmony, immediately the living entity is entrapped by maya, or illusion.., In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of enmity. Everything there is absolute. Just as there are many physiological constructions within the body yet they work in one order for the satisfaction of the stomach, and just as in a machine there are hundreds and thousands of parts yet they run in harmony to fulfill the function of the machine, in the Vaikuntha planets the Lord is perfect, and the inhabitants also perfectly engage in the service of the Lord. (3.15.33)

From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (3.15.48)

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (3.16.26)

This material world is not created for those who do not want to enjoy sense gratification, who constantly remain in transcendental loving service and who are eternally Krsna conscious. For them, the spiritual world is eternally existing, and they enjoy there. (3.21.20)

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (3.25.29)

The pure status of consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. (3.26.22)

In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. (3.26.23-24)

There are different kinds of individual living beings-some of them are in this material world, and some are in the spiritual world. Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world all those who are in the devotional service of the Lord are eternally fixed, for they understand the position of the Supreme Being, as well as their individual constitution. (4.24.33)

It is clearly explained that Lord Krsna has multi-energies, which can be grouped into three: namely the external energy, the internal energy and the marginal energy. There are also different cosmic manifestations-namely the spiritual world and the material world-as well as different types of living entities. Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (4.24.61)

According to this explanation, one can clearly understand that originally the living entity was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his pure, spiritual existence. However, when the mind becomes polluted by desires for sense gratification in the material world, the living entity drops into the material conditions, as explained in this verse. Thus he begins his material existence, which means that he transmigrates from one body to another and becomes more and more entangled in material existence. (4.29.75)

This ordinary living being is of two kinds-nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (5.11.12)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (6.1.34-36)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (7.1.35)

The purport is that the personal associates of Lord Visnu in Vaikunthaloka are always liberated souls. Even if sometimes cursed or blessed, they are always liberated and never contaminated by the material modes of nature. Before their liberation to Vaikunthaloka they possessed material bodies, but once they come to Vaikuntha they no longer have them. Therefore even if the associates of Lord Visnu sometimes descend as if cursed, they are always liberated. (7.1.37)

Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga go directly to the spiritual world after giving up this present body, and there they become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikuntha-lokas. The fact is that those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in one of the universes within the material world…The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch 28)

The gopis who were gathered there had almost all been followers of the Vedas. In their previous births, during Lord Ramacandra’s advent, they had been Vedic scholars who desired the association of Lord Ramacandra in conjugal love. Ramacandra had given them the benediction that they would be present for the advent of Lord Krsna and He would fulfill their desires. During Krsna’s advent, the Vedic scholars took birth in the shape of the gopis in Vrndavana; as young gopis, they got the association of Krsna in fulfillment of their previous birth’s desire. (Krsna Book, Ch. 32)

The gopi associates of Krsna who assembled in the place where Krsna was appearing were from different groups. Most of the gopis were eternal companions of Krsna. As stated in the Brahma-Samhita, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis: in the spiritual world the associates of Krsna, especially the gopis, are manifestations of the pleasure potency of Lord Krsna. They are expansions of Srimati Radharani. But when Krsna exhibits His transcendental pastimes within the material world in some of the universes, not only the eternal associates of Krsna come but also those who are being promoted to that status from this material world. So some of the gopis who joined Krsna’s pastimes within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krsna…The conditioned soul is subjected to birth and death, either by pious or sinful activities, but the gopis who began to meditate on Krsna transcended both positions and became purified and thus elevated to the status of the gopis already expanded by His pleasure potency. (Krsna Book, Ch. 29)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

 

[krsna 3]

con't

 

This material world is not created for those who do not want to enjoy sense gratification, who constantly remain in transcendental loving service and who are eternally Krsna conscious. For them, the spiritual world is eternally existing, and they enjoy there. (3.21.20)

 

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (3.25.29)

 

The pure status of consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. (3.26.22)

 

In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. (3.26.23-24)

 

There are different kinds of individual living beings-some of them are in this material world, and some are in the spiritual world. Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world all those who are in the devotional service of the Lord are eternally fixed, for they understand the position of the Supreme Being, as well as their individual constitution. (4.24.33)

 

It is clearly explained that Lord Krsna has multi-energies, which can be grouped into three: namely the external energy, the internal energy and the marginal energy. There are also different cosmic manifestations-namely the spiritual world and the material world-as well as different types of living entities. Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (4.24.61)

 

According to this explanation, one can clearly understand that originally the living entity was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his pure, spiritual existence. However, when the mind becomes polluted by desires for sense gratification in the material world, the living entity drops into the material conditions, as explained in this verse. Thus he begins his material existence, which means that he transmigrates from one body to another and becomes more and more entangled in material existence. (4.29.75)

 

This ordinary living being is of two kinds-nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (5.11.12)

 

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (6.1.34-36)

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (7.1.35)

 

The purport is that the personal associates of Lord Visnu in Vaikunthaloka are always liberated souls. Even if sometimes cursed or blessed, they are always liberated and never contaminated by the material modes of nature. Before their liberation to Vaikunthaloka they possessed material bodies, but once they come to Vaikuntha they no longer have them. Therefore even if the associates of Lord Visnu sometimes descend as if cursed, they are always liberated. (7.1.37)

 

Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga go directly to the spiritual world after giving up this present body, and there they become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikuntha-lokas. The fact is that those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in one of the universes within the material world…The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch 28)

 

The gopis who were gathered there had almost all been followers of the Vedas. In their previous births, during Lord Ramacandra’s advent, they had been Vedic scholars who desired the association of Lord Ramacandra in conjugal love. Ramacandra had given them the benediction that they would be present for the advent of Lord Krsna and He would fulfill their desires. During Krsna’s advent, the Vedic scholars took birth in the shape of the gopis in Vrndavana; as young gopis, they got the association of Krsna in fulfillment of their previous birth’s desire. (Krsna Book, Ch. 32)

 

The gopi associates of Krsna who assembled in the place where Krsna was appearing were from different groups. Most of the gopis were eternal companions of Krsna. As stated in the Brahma-Samhita, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis: in the spiritual world the associates of Krsna, especially the gopis, are manifestations of the pleasure potency of Lord Krsna. They are expansions of Srimati Radharani. But when Krsna exhibits His transcendental pastimes within the material world in some of the universes, not only the eternal associates of Krsna come but also those who are being promoted to that status from this material world. So some of the gopis who joined Krsna’s pastimes within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krsna…The conditioned soul is subjected to birth and death, either by pious or sinful activities, but the gopis who began to meditate on Krsna transcended both positions and became purified and thus elevated to the status of the gopis already expanded by His pleasure potency. (Krsna Book, Ch. 29)

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

[suchandra 1]

 

 

According to this explanation, one can clearly understand that originally the living entity was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his pure, spiritual existence. However, when the mind becomes polluted by desires for sense gratification in the material world, the living entity drops into the material conditions, as explained in this verse. Thus he begins his material existence, which means that he transmigrates from one body to another and becomes more and more entangled in material existence. (4.29.75)

 

 

As usual we tend to have a simple answer, yes or no. As we study the complexity of the material creation - for example trillions and trillions of souls swimming as krill and plankton in the world's oceans, what to speak of trillions and trillions of microorganisms on the land - the answer could be rather so complex as to exceed human brain capacity. A typical human weighs 150 pounds and takes in 3,000 calories per day. A typical whale weighs 50 tons and needs 395,000 calories per day. A whale may spend 15 hours a day feeding krill and plankton during the summer season and eating every min 540,000 plankton living entities. Looks rather there're also spiritual sparks being placed into the material creation that simply serve as building materials to keep the world going.

[realist 0]

These are the facts that many of the above CANNOT address with their show of jnan, juggling of words, sloka’s and purports

 

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation) or a dormant state of individual consciousness in the Impersonal feature of the Brahmajyoti, which is also temporary.

 

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension,

 

 

 

 

one where we can actually act as nitya siddha.

 

No, we are still old, feeble,

cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones,

but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks

of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak

Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and

remorseful Sri Duryodhana.

We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds

in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at

the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously

trying to find a tow truck that can make it up

the muddy road to get the beater

oldsmobile to the mechanic.

The guy pushing metal cars that don't run

anymore didn't fall from anywhere,

and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna

in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position.

It's the same person.

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

 

Originally Posted by CCC

 

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

There's your conclusion above by CCC

[suchandra 1]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja:

 

"As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment."

(From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

Looks like this is the final answer, it all starts with "infected by impersonalism".

[Sarva gattah 0]

We are always with Krishna however, a few living entities only ‘think’ they are not in Goloka or Vaikuntha, therefore we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

THE DREAMING MAHA-VISHNU AND HIS MAHAT-TATTVA UNIVERSES

 

Maha-Vishnu below in the painting is lying down resting and dreaming His mahat-tattva creation. His dreams facilities the dreaming marginal living entities when they choose to ignore their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, therefore, their separation from Krishna is also a dream that is temporary but very real.

In this way the marginal beings withdrawals deep within their own sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha) that takes them to the land of the dreaming known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

It is there within the mahat tattva, these counterfeit vessels or mahat-tattva vessels, known as ethereal and biological bodies, impound the baddha jiva. While the living entity is dreaming as their baddha-jiva identity, they forget their perpetual nitya-siddha bona fide self that is eternally serving Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like with Krishna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.49: “As a sleeping person acts according to the body manifested in his dreams and accepts it to be himself, so one identifies with his present body, which he acquired because of his past religious or irreligious actions, and is unable to know his past or future lives”.

No One’s perpetual devotional body falls from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible? One only thinks they are fallen, or dreams they are fallen, but in unadulterated reality, one’s authentic bodily self never falls down

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually No one falls from Vaikuntha, We really do not fall. We think we are fallen, we dream we are this body or that body. But this is just dreaming meaning we have forgotten our original situation swerving Krishna due to our sub-conscious dreaming that transports us to a far, far away place without Krishna”.

That far away place or ‘dark cloud for the dreaming’ is a real manifestation but temporary and created by the Lords sleeping Maha-Vishnu expansion; He creates the material impermanent formation known as the mahat-tattva (MATERIAL CREATION) that takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky or the Brahmajyoti.

 

 

The mahat-tattva caters for the few marginal devotees who choose to ignore Krishna and simultaneously their own perpetual eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as. In this way they choose to live out their own dream creations within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud, as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

Krishna’s planet of Goloka Vrndavana in the perpetual feature of the Spiritual Sky, is centred above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in their surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets. Both these transcendental abodes are made up of living vigraha (bodily) all-attractive conscious beings, individual entities known as nitya siddha’s who are the bodily radiance of Krishna.

All living entities are already established within the ‘eternal present’ serving the Supreme Vigraha Lord Krishna or His Lord Vishnu Expansions as their own infinitesimal vigraha bodies.

It is therefore very important to understand in our present impersonal mundane religious and technological world, that all of us are originally individual perpetual bodily personalities.

It is a crystal clear fact that we are ALL collectively and independently Krishna’s marginal potency FULLY EXPRESSED ETERNALLY in our everlasting original vigraha bodily position serving Krishna.

Just like one cannot separate the Sun from the sunrays, the marginal living beings and Krishna are never separated. That analogy can be misleading because we certainly in no way resemble a spark or ray of sunlight and Krishna is certainly not a blazing Sun.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

The 22 details about Krishna and His tatastha s’akti or marginal energy, the independent living entities living entities

1. - By virtue of His internal energy, Krishna exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. - By means of His marginal energy (tatastha s’akti), Krishna exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3. - And by means of His external energy Krishna exhibits Himself as material energy.

4. - We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels of Krishna as His marginal energy, also known as His marginal living entities or tatastha s’akti.

5. - Krishna is the cause of all causes, the personification (via His beloved Radharani) of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy (via His Brother Balarama who expands Himself as Maha-Vishnu). The combination of Radha and Krishna is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation, it is the personification of the marginal living entities that have the free will to choose.

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the Brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

8. - We are perpetual jiva souls with no commencement or termination, as the Bhagavad gita tells us. We have always been active however, from time to time, we may find refuge within the 'dreamless impersonal feature of the Brahmajyoti' however before that, we were aware of being with Krishna in His eternal pastimes.

9. - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) are endlessly under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or be a slave to His (as the Maha-Vishnu expansion) illusionary energy in His mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

 

 

 

 

10. - Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of our jiva tatastha, is always serving Krishna, regardless.

11. - However, we can choose to ignore Krishna by not being aware of who we really are (our nitya-siddha bodily identity) therefore, due to giving up our Krishna Consciousness, we proceed to the land of imagination as our nitya-baddha sub-conscious state. The baddha-jiva aspect of our marginal identity, then takes shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva, created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

12. - This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

13. - There are only two types of living entities, Vishnu tattva and Jiva Tattva

14. - Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

15. - Tatastha s’akti is not a position; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being under the influence of either the Superior energy or the inferior energy eternally.

16. - The jiva is a s’akti of the Lord, exists as neither Cit S’akti nor as Maya S’akti, we exist in between these two categories of s’akti’s, and therefore we are called Tatastha.

17. - The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

18. - The water represents the Cit s’akti and the land represents the Maya s’akti. Since we are neither the Maya s’akti nor the Cit s’akti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

19. - The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit S’akti or of the Maya S’akti.

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as s’akti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Vishnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Vishnu-Tattva and s’akti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary s’akti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Vishnu Tattva.

22. - The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha, is within the eternal ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as our perpetual identity, personality and individuality that is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ as nitya siddha.

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

 

 

 

Our Original Position

 

 

Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think oneself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma?

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His Divine Lila or play. The creation of the material world is one more expanded Lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world, and so also does His devotees.

Even the eternal residents of Goloka Vrndavana enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrndavana (the Vrndavana on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi). Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is the son of Brahma.

Brahma is a role a jiva can get in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the creation-Lila from a position apparently as independent as that of God Himself. This particular position (Brahma) is the one from which a soul *may* fall (it is not guaranteed he will) from the Lord’s association into enmeshment in creation.

In other words, rather than simply participating in creation from a transcendental position (as do the residents of Vrndavana and Narada Muni), such a soul, by attachment to his lordly position, becomes bound by the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu… life after life.

[CCC 0]

 

 

"In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. (3.26.23-24)"

 

Reading the verse above, I would Call the material world the big theater, because the false ego is part of the external energy of the Lord, so if someone descende without the protection of the Lord will get caught sooner or later with this energy and will get material bodies. For material pleasure is a must to have material bodies and this process start with the false ego, "Aham mameti". Here in the material world the souls get envious of Krsna, maybe not before, not in Vaikhunta or Goloka. Enviousness is the side effect of being here.

 

Therefore the souls who wants to enjoy this material world must cover his spiritual bodies starting with false ego and so on. So this process is like a lila, maybe I was plant, a fish, a demigod, I was killed tons of times, but I am still pure because I am a spiritual soul and the soul can't be contaminated, is my constitutional position, my consciousness is contaminated but not my soul, conciousness can change but not the soul.

 

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

"In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self.

 

 

 

 

 

The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna.

 

 

 

 

Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence.

 

 

 

 

We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. (3.26.23-24)"

 

 

 

 

 

Reading the verse above, I would Call the material world the big theater, because the false ego is part of the external energy of the Lord, so if someone descende without the protection of the Lord will get caught sooner or later with this energy and will get material bodies.

 

 

 

 

For material pleasure is a must to have material bodies and this process start with the false ego, "Aham mameti". Here in the material world the souls get envious of Krsna, maybe not before, not in Vaikhunta or Goloka. Enviousness is the side effect of being here.

 

Therefore the souls who wants to enjoy this material world must cover his spiritual bodies starting with false ego and so on. So this process is like a lila, maybe I was (in the vessels of a) plant, a fish, a demigod, I was killed tons of times, but I am still pure because I am a spiritual soul and the soul can't be contaminated, is my constitutional position, my consciousness is contaminated but not my soul, conciousness can change but not the soul.

 

 

 

The soul is nitya siddha and the contaminated consciousness is nitya baddha

 

This explains how the following is possible -

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

 

Originally Posted by CCC

 

 

 

 

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

 

 

 

 

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></U></B>

[Beggar 0]

 

5. - Krishna is the cause of all causes, the personification of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy.

Krsna is shaktiman, or the energetic. Srimati Radharani is the "personfication of the internal energy". Sometimes it is said that "Radha and Krsna are one"; They are one as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation.

"Tata" the root of the word "tatastha" literally means the "place" where the sea and the shore come together, IOW the seashore. Where exactly the sea ends and the shore begins and visa versa is actually very subtle, but it is a place.

 

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the Brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

You are trapped in a dualistic explanation, the jiva souls are both constantly being generated and eternal with neither a beginnning nor an end. This inconceivable, simultaneously one and different. The brahmajyoti is only impersonal in that the jivas there do not manifest their personhood of thinking, feeling and willing; but it is personal in the sense that it is the effulgence of the Lord. From that angle of vision we can understand that the origin of the jivas is not impersonal. The Vaisnavas only see the brahmajyoti as impersonal when it is put forth as the ultimate goal by "impersonal" philosopers otherwise Srimad Bhagavatam states, SB 1.2.11: Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.

 

S.B. 1.2.28-29 - Purport,

 

So His expansions of various forms which take place via the internal energies are superior forms, whereas the expansions which take place via the external energies are inferior forms. The living entities are also His expansions. The living entities who are expanded by His internal potency are eternally liberated persons, whereas those who are expanded in terms of the material energies are eternally conditioned souls.

 

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as s’akti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Vishnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Vishnu-Tattva and s’akti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary s’akti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Vishnu Tattva.

These statements are outrageously apasiddhantic. Although through acintya bheda abheda philosophy we can can understand the oneness we can also understand the difference. In a way you are claiming that Srimati Radharani is purusha or a transcendental man, like Krsna. It also seems that you are stating that shakti tattva does not even exist. Who could take you seriously? You can't even properly represent your own position.

Shakti tattva is the prameya or subject of the fourteenth chapter of Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. I don't think that you understand that you are arguing that Bhagavan or Krsna has no shakti because you seem to be saying that His shakti is only manifest in His Isvara form. This is the argument of the impersonalists and the mayavadis. I am not accusing you of this, but I don't believe that you are really thinking out what you are writing.

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 4: The Confidential Reasons for the Appearance of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.86

kimvā, prema-rasa-maya kṛṣṇera svarūpa

tāńra śakti tāńra saha haya eka-rūpa

SYNONYMS

kimvā — or; prema-rasa — the mellows of love; maya — made of; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; svarūpa — the real nature; tāńra — of Him; śakti — the energy; tāńra saha — with Him; haya — there is; eka-rūpa — oneness.

TRANSLATION

Or "kṛṣṇa-mayī" means that She is identical with Lord Kṛṣṇa, for She embodies the mellows of love. The energy of Lord Kṛṣṇa is identical with Him.

PURPORT

Kṛṣṇa-mayī has two different imports. First, a person who always thinks of Kṛṣṇa both within and without and who always remembers only Kṛṣṇa, wherever he goes or whatever he sees, is called kṛṣṇa-mayī. Also, since Kṛṣṇa's personality is full of love, His loving potency, Rādhārāṇī, being nondifferent from Him, is called kṛṣṇa-mayī.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as s’akti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Vishnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Vishnu-Tattva and s’akti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary s’akti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Vishnu Tattva.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The above is the correct understanding. There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva. The other points you made I have corrected, namely 5 and 7

[Beggar 0]

 

There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

Your statement at first glance seems simple and straightforward but I think you need to go into more detail. Do you mean that nitya siddhas and nitya baddhas are the same? Do you mean that there is no such thing as shakti tattva?

What is the meaning of guru tattva, rasa tattva, dhama tattva, siva tattva?