Our constitutional body is eternal, presently we are all dreaming

Sarva gattah · September 26, 2007

What is the marginal living entity? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya-baddha consciousness? What is tatastha? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

Shiva and Akruranatha I hope you have read the following carefully.

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Shiva, you are not understanding what I have presented, your 'paste and cut' quotes do obviously do not provide you with the realization necessary to understand this subject that clearly proves that we do not originate from a tatastha state of consciousness of our own marginal identity (also known as jiva), which is really the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, that is simply a manifestation of the marginal living entities or jiva souls manifesting dormantly or inactively as their nitya-baddha secondary dreaming dreamless consciousness. Let ne gradually explain as follows -

Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea and personal told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness that is facilitated by Maha-Vishnu, which is true but only after we have come down from Goloka.

There is an example below where the shastra states our origin is from the body of Maha Vishnu, but what that really means is we enter that condition only AFTER we have used our free will to leave Goloka, not as our perpetual body, because that is not possible, but rather as our dreams and thoughts manifesting as a sub-conscious projection called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

No marginal living entity (jivas) originates from the body of Maha-Vishnu or the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Technically there is no origin to the jives or living entities becausre they all have an eternal bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is there without beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

What the Vedas call the jiva in most cases only refers to our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness AFTER we have entered the dreams of Maha Vishnu. You have to read ALL of Srila Prabhupadas books and hear his lectures and morning walks to understand. There are over 170 meanings of the word jiva and most refer to the nitya-baddha consciousness and not the marginal living entities full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily identity. Many great pandits and Vaishnava Guru’s cannot even understand this because it is not possible to understand through book knowledge only, their must be personal realization what the jiva really is perpetually nitya-siddha or nitya-baddha.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Akruranatha dasa wrote -

“The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal. The jivas belong to the marginal energy, also known as “tatastha sakti”.

That means, although they are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy, they may misuse their independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords over His material energy. In so doing, they falsely identify with the Lord’s material energy, and in fact it predominates over them and defeats them. (Although they have the illusion or “dream” that they may predominate over the Lord’s energy, they are repeatedly defeated in their attempts, again and again). It is not a question of “tatastha consciousness”. Where are you getting that phrase from?” End of Akruranatha dasa’s comment

Reply

Akruranatha dasa everything you have written I agree with and have explained, except of course that we originate from tatastha consciousness.

What is tatastha consciousness, read carefully the following. The following essay is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

What is the marginal living entity? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya baddha consciousness? What is tatastha? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The living entities are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as perpetual bodily servants known as nitya-siddhas, when the marginal livig entity misuses their independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but as a secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

The jivas don’t belong to the marginal energy, they are the marginal energy that is embodied in their original constitutional origins which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

They can also be known as “tatastha sakti” due to their inferior or secondary nitya-baddha consciousness when it enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

This is an important point to try and understand. In 1972 in Australia I was sitting in on this topic with devotees as we travelled around Australia in a double Decker bus. Srila Prabhupada told us we have an eternal body and a dreaming consciousness if we ignore Krishna and simultaneously that Krishna Conscious body. To me this understanding is clear’

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body, we may misuse our independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

In this way the jiva or marginal living entity, as their secondary dreaming sub-conscious self, falsely identifies with the Lord’s material energy, and in fact it predominates over them and defeats them repeatedly in their attempts, again and again to be the controller. The impermanent perishable nature of the mahat-tattva frustrates the nitya-baddha consciousness and eventually AGAIN they seek the shelter of Impersonalism or tatastha falsely thinking this is their original position..

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Sarva gattah · September 26, 2007

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls condition of being or inactive consciousness when they attempt to become inactive.

This motionless individual consciousness, that can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation) is called the nitya-baddha inferior self or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entitity. This nitya-baddha consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to ‘dream’ of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like”. From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entity, referred to as the jiva soul, has two aspects of consciousness, one is a perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming state (nitya-baddha) There is three characteristics to Krishna’s energy -

1. The authentic and original state of the marginal living entity or jiva soul is their eternal and perpetual ‘svarupa’ body engaged in their selfless Krishna conscious rasa serving Krishna (NITYA-SIDDHA). There is no beginning or end to the entire creation of Lord Krishna, so in the face of eternity; time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning.

2. The second aspect of the marginal living entity or jiva-soul, is a dreaming bodiless non-Krishna–consciousness called the NITYA-BADDHA self, that can only expressed as fading and imperishable dreams outside Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words the nitya-baddha consciousness is the marginal living entities (jiva) own dream projections that enter the mahat-tattva (material creation), or can also manifest as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha etc which is really the Impersonal condition of their own (the marginal living entity or jiva) secondary conscious state. In this way the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is a ‘collective’ of individual jivas or marginal living entities manifesting dormant as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that that appear like ‘inactive’ sparks in a fire or rays of the sun. The permanent full identity, personality, individuality, character and body of the marginal living entity nitya-siddha) is eternally in Goloka or Vaikuntha’s imperishable atmosphere that is beyond the past, present and future of the mahat-tattva and the non-existence of past, present and future within the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

3. The third energy of Krishna is the mahat-tattva or material creation which includes the ethereal and biological containments that the jiva soul (marginal living entity) in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness wear as a costume that enables them be part of the mahat-tattva, just like a submarine vessel enables one to be part of the oceans environment. In a similar way the ethereal and biological vessels are one with and part of the mahat-tattva

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily form within the unchanging Spiritual Sky in their full bodily expression eternally. Even though there is no concept of time as we know it, there are unending pastimes going on there that are imperishable.

In other words everything and everybody (all of Krishna’s marginal potency) are already there in Goloka serving Krishna in a particular rasa that has always existed without Beginning or end.

This is Important to understand Srila Prabhupada told us during one of his intimate conversions. This bodily relationship with Krishna in Goloka or Vaikuntha is always there and can never change even if the marginal living entity uses their free will to choose to enter their own dreams of illusionary greatness and dream as/in their secondary sub-conscious projection that is called the nitya-baddha consciousness..

This secondary non-Krishna Conscious ‘dreaming’ version of the ‘marginal living entity’ can only exist outside of Goloka within the material creation or mahat-tattva contained in the mahat-yattva’s ethereal and biological vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha consciousness or the secondary ‘dreaming’ condition of the jiva (marginal living entity) can enter the mahat-tattva, or eventually proceed to its own dormant condition of consciousness, achieved with great difficulty only after spending billions of life times passing through the bodily ornaments of the mahat-tattva (ethereal and biological containers).

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, page 323.

The Personality of Godhead and His emanations, such as the jīva souls or marginal living entities, are simultaneously different and nondifferent, just like the sun and its expanding rays. There are more jīvas or marginal living entities than anyone can count, and each of them is eternally alive with consciousness and an original perpetual bodily form that remains imperishable in Vaikuntha or Goloka, even if one sub-consciously enters a dreaming state of consciousness (nitya-baddha) within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

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Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

The jiva’s or living entities in their full expression of sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA as their perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form in Goloka, can however choose to use their free will and ignore or forget Krishna and the ceaseless body they serve Krishna as, which is who they really are ceaselessly within the everlasting devotional atmosphere and pastimes of Goloka.. Such unconscious dreams of the marginal living entity or jiva is called the nitya-baddha conscious projection. Such dreams and not their nitya-siddha body, enter the dreams of Maha Vishnu as a secondary dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha).

Srila Bhaktisiddanta - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Sarva gattah · September 26, 2007

In this way the forgetful jiva, now unaware of their perpetual ‘svarupa’ body in Goloka, becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with shelter within His Body, The marginal position of the jīva soul or living entity manifesting as their secondary nitya-baddha conscious projection, is completely forgetful of their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka.

The śrutis confirm: nityo nityānāḿ cetanaś cetanānām. (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 5.13 and Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.13) When they are sent forth from the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu at the beginning of MATERIAL creation, the jīvas are all equal in the sense that they are all atomic particles of the Lord's marginal energy. But according to their differing conditions, they divide into four groups: Some are covered by ignorance, which obscures their vision like a cloud. Others become liberated from ignorance through a combination of knowledge and devotion. A third group of souls become endowed with pure devotion, with a slight mixture of desire for speculative knowledge and fruitive activity. Those souls attain purified bodies composed of perfect knowledge and bliss with which they can engage in the Lord's service’.

Finally, there are those who are devoid of any connection with ignorance; these are the Lord's eternal associates as their nitya-siddha fullness that comes to the mahat-tattva as a service to Krishna.

Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. . . . . . . .

Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes,"

Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."

Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.

Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles

In the service of Srila Prabhupadas Sankirtan Movement with the aim to eliminate Impersonalism and the offensive idea we all originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Sarva gattah · September 27, 2007

The ridiculousness from you guys just doesn't stop.

Look at the dumb statements you are making. You claim the jiva is the marginal energy, but then claim that the jiva is not tatastha sakti. GAAAAWWDD.

Look guys, "marginal energy" is how Prabhupada translated "tatastha sakti" into english, jeez.

Marginal means "on the margin or border". That is what Tatastha means as well.

taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126

taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362

taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151

taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

From Srila Prabhupada Nectar of Instruction

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is;

krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation;

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.

Get it?

Got it?

Good!

Shiva everything you have written is well researched and well explained, except of course many will not agree that we originate from tatastha dormant consciousness.

What is tatastha consciousness?.

Tatastha means those living entities who are neutral, inactive or dormant in consciousness, who are border line, neither in the Vaikuntha’s or the mahat-tattva

The tatastha-shakti is located on the boundaries between the material and spiritual energies. Tatastha means “in between”. It also means that this consciousness condition of the marginal living entity is sometimes manifested and sometimes not manifested, like the material energy. Yet the potency is always there since it exists within the Supreme Lord as a part and parcel of the marginal status of the living entity. What is the marginal living entity? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya baddha consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

Shiva - "Marginal means "on the margin or border". That is what Tatastha means as well".

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha (dormant), Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman are not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls condition of being or inactive consciousness when they attempt to become inactive.

This motionless individual consciousness that can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation) is called the nitya-baddha inferior self or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity. This nitya-baddha consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to ‘dream’ of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like”. From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entity, referred to as the jiva soul, has two aspects of consciousness; one is a perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming state (nitya-baddha)

The living entities are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as perpetual bodily servants known as nitya-siddhas, when the marginal livig entity misuses their independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but as a secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

The jivas don’t belong to the marginal energy, because they ARE the marginal energy that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position. The marginal living entity can also be known as “tatastha sakti” due to their inferior or secondary nitya-baddha consciousness when it enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

In this way the jiva or marginal living entity, as their secondary dreaming sub-conscious self, falsely identifies with the Lord’s material energy, and in fact it predominates over them and defeats them repeatedly in their attempts, again and again to be the controller. The impermanent perishable nature of the mahat-tattva frustrates the nitya-baddha consciousness and eventually AGAIN they seek the shelter of Impersonalism or tatastha falsely thinking this is their original position..

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

In this context, the Brahma-sayujya and tatastha s’akti is a description of the marginal living entities in their dormant condition of consciousness

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection”. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

Srila Prabhupada - "The original characteristics of a substance are called svarūpa, and the subsequent corollaries are called taṭastha-lakṣaṇa, or marginal characteristics. The glories of the Lord's marginal characteristics prove Him to be the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, the son of Mahārāja Nanda. As soon as one understands this, one accepts Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī krishna.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 18.126

The forgetful jiva (marginal living entity manifesting as their secondary inferior consciousness), is now unaware of their perpetual ‘svarupa’ body in Goloka, becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with shelter within His Body, The marginal position of the jīva soul or living entity manifesting as their secondary nitya-baddha conscious projection, is completely forgetful of their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu".

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the jiva-tattva and can also be the jiva-tatastha and about 170 other jiva definations however, they are all the extended secondary consciousness of their nitya-siddha body when one chooses to use their free will and ignore Krishna.

Sarva gattah · September 29, 2007

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Year="1967" Day="27" Month="8">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition.

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Year="1972" Day="20" Month="4">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha or jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna, in this way their Impersonal understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness entered the mahat-tattva and then, after much struggle in the maha-tattva (material creation) , entered the temporary borderline jiva-tatastha condition of consciousness, they were with Krishna, not as their insubstantial nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha consciousness, but as their endless beautiful perpetual nitya-siddha- Svarupa body that can never ever fall down from Goloka.

Nitya-siddha can never fall down from Goloka, therefore non of us fall down however we do sometimes dream or think we fall down, such dreaming and thinking creates the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness that is also called the jiva-tatastha, jiva-bhutah, jiva-s'akti and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on the condition of consciousness the nitya-baddha sub-consciousness 'dreams' to be in outside of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

The nitya-baddha dreaming lower consciousness state of the living entities caracture can also appear to resemble an Impersonal inactive spark of consciousness as part of a collective in the Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya (individual dormant consciousness as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, they had first chose to extend from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha serving Krishna, as an unconscious dream called the nitya-baddha sub-conscious desires, thoughts and non-Krishna conscious dreams that first enter the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, going on for millions upon millions of births until eventually reaching that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness, or by the mercy of a pure devotee of Krishna begins to re-establish the connection to their genuine identity.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

suchandra · October 12, 2007

Below it says, "the same dress is again returned", which means that our original spiritual body is already there.

"By the result of our past lives’ fruitive activities we have got this body, material body. That is also not our real body. That is the body of the prison house, just like when a criminal is put into the prison house, he is given a different dress. In hospital, in prison house, when a man is there, his original dress is taken away. It is kept. When he’s released from the hospital or jail, the same dress is again returned. Otherwise his present dress is taken and a separate dress is given. Similarly, we have got our spiritual body, not that we are zero, as the Māyāvādī thinks. We are not zero. We have got our spiritual body but very, very small. Very small. The measurement is given: one ten- thousandth part of the tip of the hair, very minute. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān."

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.9.32

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Māyāpur, March 10, 1976

Sarva gattah · October 12, 2007

copied from http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

Akruranatha makes the comment ‘If Srila Prabhupada says the living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally, even while in the liberated condition, how can we deny it? We are not just parrots who repeat without understanding. But we should not go off inventing a new philosophy that is not approved by our acaryas on the plea that their “analogies” are mere “analogies”. We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas.

Comment - I agree with Akruranatha prabhu. So what is the original position of the marginal living entities? Is it atoms, sparks or molecules shaped entities? Or is the original appearance of all living entities perpetually sat-cit-ananda-vigraha?

Akruranatha - ‘We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas’.

“This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. - ‘Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972

Sri Isopanishad Text 16 “The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun’s rays are innumerable.

Comment - By this description we may believe that the marginal living entities are like molecules in the sun rays

Sri Isopanishad Text 16 ‘The sun’s rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun’.

comment - Here again we may think that we are originally atoms, molecules or rays in our original position, so many teach this as the unembellished meaning. This is because we foolishly take such analogies literally. Yes the Vedas describe the sun as the energetic and the rays are the expelled as energy that emanates from the sun as atoms, but how does shastra explain what that really means?

Now, the following is the full revelation or explanation of this text that tells us such descriptions ARE only ANOLOGIES.

Sri Isopanishad Text 16. ‘Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka-Vrndavana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating,

Goloka-Vrndavana, (compared to the sun) is really Krishna’s personal abode of unlimited active bodily pastimes

The brahmajyoti effulgence is compared to atoms, rays, molecules sparks but is really the Vaikuntha planets and all the inhabitants as their svarupa bodily identities who reside their eternally as servants of the supreme lord.

This is backed up as follows -

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

This is verified by Brahma-samhita:

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending the cows, fulfilling all desires in abodes filled with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of wish-fulfilling trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Laksmis, or goddesses of fortune.” (Bs. 5.29)

Comment - So many scriptures confirm that in our original condition, we are not some rays or atoms in an impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. in our original perpetual position we are eternal servants of Krishna. The Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky in its full potential is ALL personally devotionally active - sat, cit ananda vigraha.

The Impersonal feature is only found outside of the Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha Spiritual sky or brahmajyoti and is the creation of the marginal living entity in their secondary dreaming state. The mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspects of the Brahmajyoti is the creation of the rebellious marginal living entities in their nitya-baddha consciousness, facilitated and governed totally by Maha-Vishnu. Everything can only happen under the Lords plan whether in the Vaikuntha’s or dreaming outside the Vaikuntha’s.

“The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies. There is no difference of opinion about the personal feature of God as the controller because a controller cannot be impersonal’. Srimad-Bhagavatam – Canto One preface.

Comment - The fall down (choosing to forgetting Krishna) state is NOT a bodily plunge from Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations, that are real but perishable, are not factually created by the nitya-baddha consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates. In actual fact, all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu who knows the past, present and future.

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present.

This confirms that ones original nitya-siddha-svarupa body is always PRESENT in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream within the maha-tattva or even in a dreamless state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

That dream world or the non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, and death - all things that do not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

This clearly means all of us have an eternal individual vigraha form and rasa relationships that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we may be consciously unaware of this everlasting fact of creation due to our selfishness and egocentricity that create our independent dreaming secondary consciousness, that is transferred to the material universe, as a forgetful condition in an impermanent existence.

‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

comment - Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of Maya are all creations Maha-Vishnu’s illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality because of its temporary nature.

“When one is Krishna conscious, he can realize that material existence, whether one is awake or dreaming, is nothing but a dream and has no factual value.” S.B. 7.7.27

Comment - In the same way, a self-realized soul is completely detached from the material body and the material world around it. He is like a person who has awakened and arisen from a dream. With expert vision sharpened by detachment, the self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces through knowledge of the self and completely withdraws his consciousness from the expansion of material variety and engages fully in the service of Krishna and eventually re-establishes his original svarupa identity in Goloka.

“The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized text 28 purport

Comment - The material world is only temporarily “real” because is constantly decaying. After Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva back into His dreaming Body, the material world is no longer real. Because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense because of its temporary nature. So, no, the material world is not real. It is an illusion. Nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The marginal living entities in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness are in the sleeping condition within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in His Mahat-tattva creation under the spell of His wife Maya and foolishly think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. It is just like a dream. It appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. It is a real illusion’.

Srila Prabhupada also says we must be careful how we understand this concept of dreaming.

“Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream”. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8

Akruranatha says - ‘Bhakta Rod, you are now saying we cannot fall down because it is only a dream? That’s okay, but that dreaming is what we mean by fall down. It is not a “merrily merrily life is but a dream. . . ” It is very serious, most imperative. I am “dreaming”, you are “dreaming”. We have to be very afraid of this “dreaming.” We have to wake up. It is easier said than done. We cannot simply wish away the horrors of material existence by knowing theoretically that liberated souls see it as a dream.

Comment – The fact is our fall down IS only thought generated and we factually can never fall down in our svarupa body, quote -‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Sarva gattah · October 12, 2007

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Actually we are eternal family members of the lord, but due to our misuse of independence we have now forgotten our eternal relationship with Krishna, exactly like a man who is mad forgets his family relationship and loiters in the street. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna’s family. 69-06-07. Prabhupada Letter: Uttamasloka

“Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’ Bg Introduction

Shiva says - The material world and material consciousness is dreamlike, but it is not an actual dream. The metaphor of a dream is used because a dream is temporary and the dreamer has limited mental acuity in the dream e.g. the dreamer doesn’t know that he is in a dream, (lucid dreaming notwithstanding) his mental awareness of the nature of the reality of the dreamscape he is in is limited to varying degrees. The main points in the metaphor is that the person in the dream doesn’t understand reality for what it really is and that eventually he will wake up and live in a more permanent reality. So a person in material consciousness living in the material world is not really “dreaming that he has left Vaikuntha but in reality is living in Vaikuntha” while his “nitya baddha consciousness” dreams it lives in the material world. Those ideas are simply your speculative extrapolations from your misunderstanding of various things you have read”.

Comment - Unfortunately your understanding of shastra is incomplete and mostly immature; there are many, many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that have been used on this thread that clearly proves our existence in the mahat-tattva is simply the dream of the soul. This is no metaphor or mental speculation, it is a fact.

The truth is, you and no one else can refute what Srila Prabhupada has said. And that is, the material world is not only the dream of Maha-Vishnu, but also the dream of the marginal living entity.

Therefore shastric conclusion is that the dreaming of the marginal living entities becomes evident when they misuses their free will and choose to ignore Krishna AND THE NITYA-SIDDHA BODY THEY SERVE Krishna as. This is how one can only fall down, therefore dreaming within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu is NOT A METEPHOR, it is a temporary reality.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal nitya-siddha body ALWAYS remains in Goloka.

Therefore, unlike the misunderstanding some pandits have, some of them even Guru’s, caste Brahmanas and Swamis of Indian origin, who foolishly take words literately and claim the original state of the marginal living entity is like atoms, molecules and sparks in some impersonal effulgence, the fact is, such terminologies ARE METORPHOR because originally we are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna.

Therefore the nitya-siddha body that is the full expression and potentail of EVERY marginal living entity, can never fall down and therefore they are not originally jiva-tatastha.

“Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Jappa Jim was right in this assessment however, where he has misunderstood shastra is WE ARE ALL NITYA-SIDDHA and the so called fall down by some marginal living entities (25%) is only in a dreaming state, that state of dreaming is called the nitya-baddha consciousness, we therefore agree on at least one thing and that is nitya-siddhas can never fall down from their perpetual svarupa body.

‘We are right now with Krishna, for Krishna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarupa dasa web site

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in Krishna’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) that is like the dreams one has at night yet, unlike ones illusionary dreams in a biological body, the ‘dreams’ of the marginal living entity are real but temporary.

“Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity” April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

We must understand that the marginal living entities are by constitution internal energy because all ‘life’ can only enter the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti only after one is transferred from the personal Vaikunthas that is also Known as the spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti.

The marginal condition of the living is always known as marginal due to the ability of free will, this is the real meaning of the word marginal, of whom all living entities, Except of course the unlimited numbers of vishnu tattvas (direct expansions of Krishna), are.

Many devotees understand these facts of the Shastra, in fact it is a concern that many cannot correctly understand the teachings of the Vedas that Srila Prabhupada correctly understood. Not even many of his Godbrothers and God nephews precisely understood Vedanta and have irrationally claimed we have originated from the IMPERSONAL Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada strongly rejected that nonsense.

‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967).

Akruranatha states - Bhakta Rod says: “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact.”

That could be one answer. It is a highly theoretical answer, not necessarily suited for every time and place.

For starters, I did not say that, Srila Prabhupada did -

‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Sarva gattah · October 12, 2007

Akruranatha says - I have no problem with Bhakta Rod’s basic premise that the jiva’s “original” form is his siddha-svarupa, siddha deha, a form with limbs and senses and transcendental activities in the spiritual world.

The thing I find strange is that some of the contributors here have a whole complicated philosophy that apparently leads them to conclude that those situated in their spiritual bodies are no longer jivas, no longer Krishna’s parts and parcels, no longer marginal or “tatastha” potency.

I think mostly it is a disagreement about terminology only. All of us are devotees. No one seriously thinks that when a jiva attains perfection he becomes the Supreme Lord, the supreme enjoyer, Vishnu tattva. (Right?)

I think also that we are a little challenged in our conversation because we are striving for “victory” over opposing views to a certain extent and thus we are not as charitable to each other as we might be, for example, in a friendly, supportive study session.

I will be the first to admit that I am still very addicted to foolishly trying to enjoy this “dream” and thus I have little or no practical realization of what it is like to be situated in the spiritual world in my eternally perfect spiritual body.

Some (non-ISKCON) devotees may well say we have never been to the spiritual world, we originated in the brahmajyoti, our spiritual bodies have never formed yet, etc. Part of their argument is that anyone who goes to the spiritual world never returns.

Such statements do not seem in line with what Srila Prabhupada taught. However, Prabhupada also told us not to argue about such things. Apparently this particular question (about how and when we first became conditioned) is not particularly relevant to helping us make spiritual advancement, and arguing about it just seems to be a waste of time or, worse, a cause for dissention among devotees. I think that is the more impoprtant instruction of Srila Prabhupada about this.

Bhakta Rod wants to solve the conflict by pointing out that we never fell, we are not in contact with material nature, we are eternally situated in our perfected, liberated body in the spiritual world. Even though we *can* return, it is not *really* returning because no one ever leaves anyway. It is a noble effort at least, but I cannot embrace it with his enthusiasm.

Although we may understand theoretically that the spirit-soul is eternally perfect, we also have to acknowledge that our practical experience is that we really are suffering, we really are unsure, afraid, ignorant of our true position. So, even though it seems like a nice, neat solution, Bhakta Rod’s approach to the “jiva fall” controversy neglects reality as experienced by conditioned souls.

Someone could challenge Bhakta Rod, “If you say you and I are really eternally in our svarupa siddhi spiritual bodies, then what specifically is your siddha svarup? What color are you? Are you a boy, girl, cow, tree…what? And what am I?”

Krishna may know, Srila Prabhupada may know, but Bhakta Rod and I do not know (and Srila Prabhupada did not tell us in that kind of specific detail). For now we have to focus on practical service and gradually it will be revealed to us.

So, if someone challenged us like that, we would be defeated and would not be representing Srila Prabhupada well.

One related point: Srila Prabhupada’s mood was definitely not to encourage us to withdraw from the world and philosophize or meditate in a solitary place. He demanded that we serve the preaching mission with our body, mind and words. We should learn Srila Prabhupada’s books together in the spirit of being able to engage in spreading the “gospel” of Lord Caitanya everywhere. To become fully absorbed in such work is “practical samadhi” or, in other words, “Work now, samadhi later.”

Akruranatha prabhu says - ‘Our idea is …..’ Sounds a bit supercilious to me.

It is not a question of ‘our idea’ but rather what Srila Prabhupada has written and said.

The concept of ‘our ideas’ has no relevant weight. It is Srila Prabhupadas teachings that carry ALL the influence of scriptural meaning.

Bhakta Rod is also quoting many intimate conversations Prabhupada had with the inner circle of devotees that was possibly not for everyone to understand, due to many devotees of the time, as well as the outside human society, only beginning their pathway in Krishna Consciousness. It is therefore obvious some devotees will have a deeper understanding of the real meaning of scripture than others.

Srila Prabhupadas mission is meant to re-awaken and re-establish every living entities ‘old’ or original Krishna Conscious constitutional position back home in Goloka.

A few more points in response to Akruranatha posts

“The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized

text 28 purport

What is the real source of dreaming?

Even though the marginal living entities may choose to leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is only a sub-conscious ‘dreaming’ departure like in a mirage; their unadulterated ceaseless svarupa body will always remain eternal founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

In this way their non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams can find shelter and an avenue for expression within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu that are real but only a temporary manifestation, WHICH IS His maha-tattva creation. From there the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness can further devolve to the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that exists outside His dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

Until the marginal living entity chooses to re-establish and again wake up from their nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness to achieve the shelter of the of their own continuous svarupa body that is ceaselessly serving Krishna unconditionally, they are prone to be defeated again and again by Maya.

The unlimited number of conditioned nitya-baddha’s (JIVAS) being defeated by Maya remain under the influence of Her three modes within the three world of the mahat-tattva. Therefore the principle is that only the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness manifests as the jiva tatastha and not ones eternal svarupa body.

The atomic conscious nitya-baddha secondary feature of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) that can only manifest outside the realm of Goloka, come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance and enter within His maha-tattva creation. Being in propinquity to Maya, these jivas, or the dreaming inferior nitya-baddha feature of the marginal living entity, see the effervescent variegatedness of the mahat-tattva. They have all the characteristics of the selfish forgetful secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity which is self interested sensual gratification and to constantly deny Krishna to be the Supreme Lord and cause of all causes.

Therefore because of their minute nature they may sometimes glance slightly towards the spiritual creation where the full eternal potential of their marginal identity eternally exists as nitya-siddha svarupa, and sometimes towards the material creation where they can possess ethereal and biological containers or vessels. In this way the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness is also known as jiva-tatastha that is only relevant OUTSIDE of Goloka and Vaikuntha. In this way they take shelter of ethereal and biological impermanent vessels that are the decorative ornaments of the mahat-tattva.

The lowly nitya-baddha non Krishna conscious state individual consciousness (jiva) is weak, because he has been separated from his authentic constitutional body for so long in Goloka that he has not yet recognized the know-how or ability to re-establish, or again reconnect to his legitimate spiritual svarupa Krishna Conscious bodily identity.

Out of these unlimited nitya-baddhas or jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy Maya remain eternally bound by Maya because of being attached to sense enjoyment they seek after within the ethereal and biological vessels they possess. Those who engage in pure selfless unconditional devotional service to the Lord reawaken gradually to their eternal nitya-siddha body whom they really are and have always have been. In this way one eventually goes back home back to Godhead as their nitya-baddha ‘jiva’ identity dissipates as the sun disperses darkness.

The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

The word svarūpa-sthah is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Krishna.

This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one’s pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18

svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one’s constitutional position

svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 2.6

And what is that form?

“But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 5.21

Akruranatha made the comment i.e. ‘Gauragopala is advancing the opposite proposition that, once the jiva becomes liberated and goes to Vaikuntha or Krishnaloka, it is no longer “marginal”, “minute quantity”, or “fragmental’.

This comment is incorrect if one reads my post, I said -

“It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.”

I also agree with Bhakta Rod - ‘It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism’.

I also like to point out that marginal can be used in different ways. When Srila Prabhupada referred to marginal living entities in Goloka, he meant they had the ability to use their free will and choose serving Krishna, or do their own thing with in the material creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.”

Comment -If that choice and free will to choose did not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha, then we would be no better than assimilated androids. Free will is there is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities in Goloka so they can use their own individuality, identity and personality to express a personal service to Krishna, or, if they choose, they can mise use it and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva and forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as.

Prabhupada: They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) emphases

The other use of the word marginal is a totally different context, the word marginal can also mean borderline or tatastha but this is a different use of the word when referring the freewill and the ability to choose.

The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Murali_Mohan_das · October 12, 2007

Srila Sridhar Maharaja says that Vrindavana is a state of consciousness (not necessarily, a "place" as we understand it).

Furthermore, the characteristic of those who are in Vrindavana is that they are unaware of their position.

Our constitutional position may be as a servant of the Lord with a transcendental spiritual form, but until we are in that Vrindavana consciousness, we are not in Vrindavana.

Vigraha · October 13, 2007

Could the following be the answer to this entire discussion on the word tatastha -

By definition we are the marginal energy of the Lord and that marginal energy is represented first and for most as the nitya-siddha eternal bodily that perpetually serves Krishna Goloka or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha’s.

Marginal therefore means we are not Krishna, but are separate entities yet at the same time fully dependant on Krishna, just like the rays of the sun cannot exist without the sun (analogy only, not to be taken literally) Marginal also means we have we have free will, as simple as that.

The superior energy is Krishna and the inferior energy is the mahat-tattva. If you mean as marginal, we are neither the superior energy of the inferior energy and call that 'marginal definition' tatastha, then we have no argument.

Jiva-tatastha (borderline) in this description and version of the word can mean we are situated in-between the Superior energy, Krishna (and his unlimited Purusha expansions), and the mahat-tattva or the material creation of Maha-Vishnu, who is one of those Purusha expansions of the superior energy.

If this is the case, then maybe this entire discussion is simply a misunderstanding of words.

If you mean by tatastha the marginal living entity is in-between the superior energy and the inferior energy then yes, in this definition the marginal living entity is tatastha.

However I want to make it perfectly clear that the eternal expression of that borderline or marginal condition, the living entities were created as, which is in-between the inferior and superior energies, called the jiva-tatastha living entity, is perpetual a nitya-siddha bodily devotee of Krishna in Goloka, which is the marginal living entities perpetual Krishna Conscious expression of their 'tatastha' indiviuality.

This interpretation and understanding clearly makes it clear that tatastha is not originally an impersonal state of being, although the marginal living entity can enter and be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) in the dress of ethereal and biological containers. There are other interpretations unfortunately that translate the word tatastha as an impersonal beginning for the marginal living entity.

Question : - What is the meaning of marginal?

"The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

"The supreme knowledge of Krishna is exhibited in three different energies--internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognisance". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

“In the Mayavadi commentary, the spiritual, transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been denied, and the Supreme Brahman has been dragged down to the level of the individual Brahman, the living entity. Both the Supreme Brahman and the individual Brahman have been denied spiritual form and individuality, although it is clearly stated that the Supreme Lord is the one supreme living entity and the other living entities are the many subordinate living entities”. ". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

Many Vaishnava’s know we already have a permanent body in Goloka and further know that our presents in the mahat-tattva or material creation are only their dream. There are those devotees who do understand the origins of the soul but know that only their personal realizations, rather than being a stereotype (parrot like), can truly explain this.

“Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

It is a fact, based on our (Srila Prabhupadas) teachings, nitya-baddha is the dreaming consciousness of the marginal living entity and our original position is eternally nitya-siddha.

Srila Prabhupada has said nitya-siddha is the full expression of all marginal living entity

From my understanding of Srila Prabhupadas teachings, the dreaming consciousness is called nitya-baddha. Some devotees don’t even like the word ‘dream’ used when describing our so called fall down to the mahat-tattva’s ethereal and biological containers and the mahat-tattva’s lifeless material surroundings

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion

There is a paradox her however, and that is technically all the marginal living entities (100%) of all of Krishna's subsidiary potency are perpetually original represented by their fully Krishna Conscious bodily identity (nitya-siddha) in Goloka however, it is up to 25% of them who are the ones actually dreaming that they are in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

In other words some marginal living entities are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as their bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection, that relies on the ethereal and biological bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu, while their perpetual nitya-siddha body is in Goloka or Vaikuntha..

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

"When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: "Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance." This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and night time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krishna consciousness. If he takes to Krishna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he's in the dreamland" Bombay, December 27, 1972

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

This subject is very difficult to comprehend however, Srila Prabhupada clearly states that we, the marginal living entity, is originally nitya-siddha so we cannot of originated from a 'blank sheet of paper' or borderline impersonal consciousness from some Impersonal concept of the Brahmajyoti because all marginal living entities or jivas have a perpetual bodily form that NEVER leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha. The marginal living entity, as their nitya-siddha eternal bodily identity, can therefore only ‘think’ or ‘dream’ they leave Goloka because ones perpetual 'svarupa' body can never leave an atmosphere that is imperishable.

It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT from a plain borderline state of individual consciousness made up of living atoms, molecules or rays because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.

-'All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas] are eternally associated without any break . . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation. Bhag. 2.9.10,

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago. This obviously means we came down not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu, or can eventually merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, which is true, but only after we have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

“Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

“This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination” (Bhag.11.2.38)

Our nitya siddha body is always in Goloka as confirmed by Srila Prabhupada, even if we are off in some dream within the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada confirms this

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted (?)… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky" Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada -”As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Sarva gattah · October 21, 2007

It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism’.

I also like to point out that marginal can be used in different ways. When Srila Prabhupada referred to marginal living entities in Goloka, he meant they had the ability to use their free will and choose serving Krishna, or do their own thing with in the material creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.”

Comment -If that choice and free will to choose did not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha, then we would be no better than assimilated androids. Free will is there is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities in Goloka so they can use their own individuality, identity and personality to express a personal service to Krishna, or, if they choose, they can mise use it and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva and forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as.

Prabhupada: They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) emphases

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time." (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com st1:State>, <st1:date Year= January 28, 1974</st1:date>

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two ttp://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/034.html

"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

"These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42

"The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

"So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti.

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

gHari · October 22, 2007

TOKYO 1972:

zrI zuka uvAca

Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan

parasyAnubhavAtmanaH

na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH

svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA

[

SB 2.9.1

]

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Karandhara: "SrI-zukaH uvAca--SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said; Atma-- the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mAyAm--the energy; Rte-- without; rAjan--O King..."

PrabhupAda: RAjan.

Karandhara: RAjan--O King.

PrabhupAda: It is address, addressing. Nominative is rAja and addressive is rAjan. Go on.

Karandhara: ParasyAsya...

PrabhupAda: Parasya.

Karandhara: Parasya.

PrabhupAda: Parasya. Yes.

Karandhara: "Parasya--of the pure soul; anubhava-AtmanaH-- of the purely conscious; na--never; ghaTeta--it can so happen; artha-- meaning; sambandhaH--relation with the material body; svapna-- dream; draSTuH--of the seer; iva--like it; aJjasA--completely."

PrabhupAda: AJjasA.

Karandhara: "AJjasA--completely. Translation: SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working."

PrabhupAda: So, purport?

Karandhara: "Purport. The question of MahArAja ParIkSit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind."

PrabhupAda:

It is a very important question. ParIkSit MahArAja inquired... Many people inquired that "How the living entity was with KRSNa, he became fallen in this material world?" Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that "How the living entity who was with KRSNa became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?" So this is the answer. Read the translation

.

Karandhara: "SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..."

PrabhupAda:

It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen

. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

PrabhupAda: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a mAyA, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material." That is the reason. He is thinking, "I am this body." Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving. [break] Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan. Except Atma-mAyA, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of KRSNa. This illusory energy develops when we forget KRSNa. That's all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up KRSNa and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore KRSNa is giving us...

Just like when you play some part in a drama, if you feel that "I am king," then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel that "I am Karandhara," then you cannot play nicely king. Is it not? Feeling must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, then you must have the same courage and belief that "I am king." You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then your part will be very nicely played. It will be appreciated. But if you think simultaneously that "I am Karandhara. I am taking, playing the part of the king," then you cannot play. So because we wanted to play the part of KRSNa, enjoyer, KRSNa is giving us chance that "You feel like Me."--"I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God." (laughter) All these rascals, those who are feeling like that, "I am master. I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God," they are all simply in that feeling only. That's all. And this feeling is created by KRSNa: "All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way." Just like director means, dramatic director means, he creates a feeling. His direction is nothing but how to feel.

Sometimes we played in our younger age Caitanya-lIlA. I introduced. And one big director, Amrtalal Chosa, he was just like grandfather. He was one of the, just like in England Shakespeare and others, big, big dramatic, well-known persons. This Amrtalal Chosa and Girish Chandra Chosa, they introduced in India theatric... So we called him to give us direction. He was giving us direction, and repeatedly he was telling that "You feel like that," especially to me. "You feel like that." So actually, when we played according to his direction, the audience were all crying. And we could not understand how they cried. We could not understand. On the stage when we played, it was so perfect that all audience were crying. Actually we saw they were smearing over their eyes with... But the whole thing is artificial, but the effect to the audience became so nice. So similarly, we are... Actually we have nothing to do with this material world, But we have been trained by the illusory energy in such a way that we are thinking, "I am Indian. I am American. I am this. I am that. I am brAhmaNa. I am zUdra. I have to do this. I have got so much duty," all these illusions, simply thinking. We have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but still, we are taking it very serious. "I have to do like that. I have to do like that. I am this. I am that." That's all. That is explained. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan: "Except the influence of that AtmA-mAyA, the illusory energy of KRSNa..." Atma-mAyA. Read. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan parasyAnu. Read it?

Karandhara: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH.

PrabhupAda: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH. Na ghaTeta artha-sambandha. There cannot be any relation at all. Na ghaTeta. Cannot be. Artha sambandhaH. Svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA. The very exact example is given, svapna-draSTuH. Just like a man seeing dream: "Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!" He is crying. Another man is, "Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?" But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: "The tiger has attacked me." Therefore this example is given, na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly we have created this material world and activity. People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors." All these things are created exactly like that, svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That's all.

So the answer is, when somebody asks you that "When one has become in contact with this material nature?" He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, KRSNa has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate KRSNa, so KRSNa has given an opportunity: "All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.' " That is the... So everyone in this material world, they are playing some part. They wanted, "I want to be prime minister.All right.I want to become very big business magnate.I want to be leader.I want to be a philosopher.I want to be a scientist." So all this nonsense, they are trying to play--KRSNa is giving him the opportunity: "All right." But it is a nonsense, all nonsense. Simple dreaming. Just like you are dreaming. Next moment when the dream is gone, everything is finished. No more tiger, no more jungle, no more... Everything is finished. Similarly, so long this body is continuing, I am thinking, "I am a responsible leader, I am this, I am that." But as soon as this body is finished, oh, these are (indistinct) gone.

Sarva-haraz cAham. The death means... KRSNa says, "I am death. I take it away, all, everything. Gone." Now just think of our past life. Suppose I was a king or something like that. From BhRgu-saMhitA it was ascertained. They said--I do not know--that I was a big physician in my last life, very spotless character, no sins, like that. He explained me. So it may be. But actually I have no remembrance that I was a physician. So what do we know? I might have been a very big physician, influential physician, having a good practice, but where is all...? All gone.

So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our KRSNa consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply KRSNa's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of KRSNa conscious. "Oh, KRSNa is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment

. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly. Now what is the purport? Come on.

Karandhara: "The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life."

PrabhupAda: Yes. Distinct. Always distinct. Next?

Karandhara: "But he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called Atma-mAyA. This is already explained in the First Canto in connection with VyAsadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy."

PrabhupAda: KRSNa says, mAm eva ye prapadyante mAyAm etAM taranti te: [bg. 7.14] "As soon as one surrenders unto Me, he has no more illusion." MAyAm etaM taranti. Immediately. So people are conditioned, encaged. So many big, big words The MAyAvAdIs, they are undergoing austerities or penances just to become liberated. Yogis, they are also trying to become one. So many endeavors are going on. But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, "It was illusion. I was dreaming. I am KRSNa's," finished. All gone. "I am KRSNa's. I am KRSNa's eternal servant. These are all nonsense"--he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of KRSNa. Sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja [bg. 18.66]. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by VyAsadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called zAstra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

Karandhara: "The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gItA also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord."

PrabhupAda: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, "Why KRSNa within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...?" Because I wanted. I wanted to forget KRSNa, so KRSNa is giving consciousness: "All right, you can forget Me in this way." That is His kindness. Just like the MAyAvAdIs, the so-called yogis and karmIs, they wanted to forget. KRSNa is giving him intelligence. "All right. You forget Me like this." That's all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, KRSNa will give you intelligence. Buddhi-yogaM dadAmi taM yena mAm upayAnti te: "I shall give intelligence." So KRSNa is... Ye yathA mAM prapadyante [bg. 4.11]. As you want, KRSNa gives you facility. Go on.

Karandhara: "Now the next question will automatically be made as to why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be engaged in his pure consciousness as the part and parcel of the Lord, and thus be engaged in loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made. But because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become independent as the Lord is. The whole nondevotee class of living entities are all desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are..."

PrabhupAda: They will never be God, but we see so many persons. By the influence of the illusory energy they think, "I am God. I am God. I shall become God by pressing my nose like this, doing this." So this is going on. They will never be able. That is not possible. Otherwise, there is no meaning of God. If everyone can become God, then there is no meaning of God. But by influence of... Just like karmIs are saying "I shall become millionaire. I shall become trillionaire. I shall become head of the state. I shall become prime minister." This struggle, this is another struggle: "I shall become God." This is another struggle. But it is illusion. It is illusion. So KRSNa gives them opportunity, some yogic success. Just like in India there is a rascal. He makes like that, and there is immediately some gold. And people become after him: "Oh, he is God. He is God." By producing a little gold, he becomes God. Another yogi, he gives immediately two rasagullA. So by producing two rasagullA, four annas' worth, he becomes God. You see? This is illusion. These rascals, they do not know that, "What is this rasagullA, two rasagullA? I can purchase from the market for four annas. So he is becoming God by four annas?" But they have no sense. "Oh, he is God. He can produce rasagullA." RasagullA I can produce in our kitchen. But they are so rascal. "Oh, wonderful." So the yogic siddhis... So KRSNa gives him some power of yogic siddhi and he thinks that "I have become God," and some flatterers, they also think, "Oh, you are God." The same dream. And as soon as death comes, everything finished, your Godhood and everything finished. Now becomes doghood, come to the stage of doghood. Again, another dream: "I am dog." First of all "I am God," then next stage, "I am dog." This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda ThAkura said, keno mAyAr boze jAccho bhese': "Why you are being washed away by the waves of mAyA? Just fix up. Stand up." JIv kRSNa-dAs ei vizwAs korle to Ar duHkho nAi. You simply remain fixed up on this standpoint, that, "I am eternal servant of KRSNa." Then there is no more dream. And if you allow yourself to be washed away, KRSNa gives you facility, "All right, come on. Be washed away." Then?

Karandhara: "The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him."

PrabhupAda: Yes.

Karandhara: "As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmI and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of Atma-mAyA by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine' and this is ‘I.' The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I' or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.' Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine' persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love."

PrabhupAda: That's all.

Devotees: All glories to you SrIla PrabhupAda. (offer obeisances)

Trivikrama: SrIla PrabhupAda?

You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen

. Yet I read...

PrabhupAda: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, "Oh, tiger is there." It is simply dreaming condition.

Trivikrama: But so many VaiSNavas are praying...

PrabhupAda: So as soon as you understand that "This is not... I am not in contact with tiger. It is all a dream," then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand, "All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. That is KRSNa conscious. If you keep in KRSNa consciousness, that "I am eternal servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. Sa guNAn samatItyaitAn brahma-bhUyaa kalpate [bg. 14.26], KRSNa says. Immediately brahma-bhUtaH. Brahma-bhUtaH prasannAtmA na zocati na kAGkSati [bg. 18.54]. He has no more lamentation, no more hankering. SamaH sarveSu bhUteSu. He can see everyone on equal vision. Because he knows, "Here is also another living entity." He is not a Chinaman. He is a part and parcel of God. He is not a Christian. He is not a Hindu. He is simply thinking like that. So give him KRSNa consciousness. That is real benefit, to bring him to the original position. Yes?

CintAmaNi: If, when we realize KRSNa, then we have no more desire, then how can we desire...

PrabhupAda: You create desire. If you simply keep this contact with KRSNa, then there is no more any other desire than to serve KRSNa. That's all.

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

PrabhupAda: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of KRSNa. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in KRSNa's service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of mAyA. You see?

Devotee: Even at that state, still the body is affected by the modes of nature. We are experiencing desires.

PrabhupAda: You are not experiencing. Your body is experiencing. You are feeling cold due to this body. You are not feeling cold. You are not feeling cold.

Devotee: But I think I am feeling cold.

PrabhupAda: You are thinking. That is illusion. That is illusion.

Devotee: So rise above that.

PrabhupAda: Yes. But not artificially, but this is the fact. You have to gradually rise to that platform. The fact is this. Just like when you are feverish, actually you are healthy, but it has come. So in the feverish condition you are thinking, "I am now feverish." But this feverish will not, condition, will not stay. You will come to the healthy stage. Therefore don't be disturbed with the feverish condition. Go on with your duty. Don't misidentify, "Now I have become feverish. Everything is finished." No. That is external. It has come; it will go. That is given in the Bhagavad-gItA. MAtrA-sparzAs tu kaunteya zItoSNa-sukha-duHkha-dAH [bg. 2.14]. Just like seasonal changes. Sometimes it is very hot, sometimes very cold, sometimes warm. So these are coming and going. So if there is some feeling of pain and pleasure, simply just tolerate it, but don't be absorbed in that thought. That's all. Therefore titikSava. The first symptoms of a saintly person is titikSava, tolerant. Tolerant. So go on reading, go on understanding. Everything will be clear. So next? There is kIrtana, or finished? (end)

Guruvani · October 22, 2007

If there is no such thing as fallen then why is Mahaprabhu known as "Patita Pavana"? (deliverer of the fallen)

Srila Prabhpada and shastra refer to "fallen souls" hundreds of times in his books.

Did the fairytale actually make it easier for the fallen souls of western society to accept Krishna?

I don't think so.

It has created a class of devotees who think they can just wish away their material existence without practicing raganuga bhakti.

Krishna Book - Ch. 89 , The Superexcellent Power of Krishna:

“”My dear Arjuna, the glaring effulgence, the transcendental light which you are seeing, is My bodily rays. O chief of the descendants of Bharata, this brahmajyoti is Myself.” As the sun disc and the sunshine cannot be separated, similarly Krsna and His bodily rays, the brahmajyoti, cannot be separated. Thus Krsna claimed that the brahmajyoti is He Himself. This is clearly stated in the Harivamsa, when Krsna says, “aham sah.” The brahmajyoti is a combination of the minute particles known as spiritual sparks, or the living entities known as citkana. The Vedic word so’ham, or “I am the brahmajyoti,” can also be applied to the living entities, who can also claim to belong to the brahmajyoti. In the Harivamsa, Krsna further explains, “This brahmajyoti is an expansion of My spiritual energy.”

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati says in the purport to Brahma-samhita 5.16:

“The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities.”

Srila Prabhupada:

“Our Knowledge Is Not Knowledge”

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.03

Bombay, December 15, 1974

“So, so long the sun is there, the sunshine is there. Sunshine means the combination of the bright molecules, molecular part. Similarly, we are parts of the brahmajyoti. Brahmajyoti means combination of unlimited living entities. Svayam-jyotih, it is said. Svayam-jyotir visvam. Svayam-jyotir visvam yena samanvitam. That jyoti is spread all over the universe, all over the universe. So the living entities are there just like sunshine is spread all over the universe. And what is the sunshine? A combination of small bright particles. Similarly, we are also bright, jyoti. And that is realization, aham brahmasmi, that “I am also small particle jyoti, and the Supreme Brahman is also jyoti…” Yasya prabha [bs. 5.40]. And what is this prabha, this prabha, this jyoti? It is Krsna’s bodily rays.”

Srila Prabhupada says in Krishna Book: Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.”

Sarva gattah · October 22, 2007

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination". (Bhag.11.2.38)

"just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. "Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha.

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

maharaj13 · October 22, 2007

dreaming in material world not dreaming in spiritual world

Guruvani · October 22, 2007

dreaming in material world not dreaming in spiritual world

true.

there is no dreaming in the spiritual world.

all dreaming of the conditioned living entities takes place in the material world not in the spiritual world.

nobody in the spiritual world is touched by dreaming or illusion.

the nonsense proposition that liberated devotees of Krishna get caught in illusion and have material dreams while in Goloka is based on an asinine philosophy that has been manufactured in the mind of a conditioned soul who is having trouble understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

I think his ISKCON guru has forbidden him to read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

So, he will never understand things properly.

Why he cannot understand that dreaming of the soul happens in the material world and not the spiritual world?

Obviously, he is very confused and suffering from a lack of shastric knowledge.

Vigraha · October 23, 2007

dreaming in material world not dreaming in spiritual world

The Vaikunthas are the perpetual abode of Krishna that represents the full meaning of the word REALITY (without beginning or end and always imperishable) This endless part of the creation or Spiritual Sky is where the full conscious potential of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is fully perpetually manifest, forever present and eternally founded as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily form that is fully awake in the service of the Lord.

The mahat-tattva or the material creation, that includes the ethereal and biological bodily vessels, on the other hand, is the dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu. The material creation is also an illusionary place for the dreaming. It is where the marginal living entity can enter (not as their perpetual svarupa body) but in a dreaming state of forgetful consciousness This phenomenon only happens when one choose to miss use their free will and ignore Krishna AND their own eternal transcendental svarupa body they serve Krishna as.

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination". (Bhag.11.2.38)

"So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun.

(Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes, they also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha.

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

The Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, therefore the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there in Goloka and Vaikuntha – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe). On the other hand eternally conditioned or nitya-baddha is only a temporary stated of consciousness of the marginal living entity as Explained by Srila Prabhupada -

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

NOTE - Eternally conditioned means nitya baddha. Eternally liberated means nitya siddha

Only nitya siddha is truly perpetual

Beggar · October 23, 2007

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Here we see the difficulty of expressing subtle thoughts in the dualistic and coarse English language. "become ānandamaya"? If he is already "part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha " he would be currently be anandamaya, why the need to become? So we can see that this whole debate in some ways is over semantics. It is also over, how accurately analogies can describe the whole Truth? We read and we hear from the bonafide source which is descending, but jnana and vijnana are not the same? What have we actually realized? Consequently to make a campaign of the origin of the soul issue on either side does not really please Srila Prabhupada. This is the only thing here that anyone can "know" for sure. Another "camp within a camp", so now we have the Vigraha camp. When it comes down to it, when Krsna appears to you "face to face" we will experience that we are again meeting our old friend (rasa will come later). The theological arguments will not be in that realm. That being said, we cannot accept any theology that asserts that Krsna's eternal associates either fall or dream that they fall down, even if theoretically they have the potential to do so, for they never, ever make that choice.

Shakti-Fan · October 23, 2007

From Dandavats Blog Archives:

According to Srila Prabhupada in Krishna Book, we have not yet had association with Krishna, because he says that if a devotee becomes perfect he gets to take birth in a universe where Krishna’s pastimes are being manifest and at that time gets his FIRST OPPORTUNITY to associate with Krishna.

Obviously, the statement that “first opportunity” indicates that we have never before had an opportunity to associate with Krishna.

As such, there is no possibility of falling from Krishna’s service and association if we are still waiting for our “first opportunity” to associate with Krishna in Gokula Vrindavan as it is being manifest in a material universe.

If we already have a body in Goloka that is in a coma then we would be able to go straight back to that body. Since we don’t already have a body in Goloka as some person is saying, then we have to take birth in Gokula Vrindavan to establish our spiritual relationship with Krishna and attain a spiritual body which we don’t presently have at this time.

Krishna Book ch. 28

The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.

so, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka.

We have never been in Goloka to fall from there.

There is no falling from Goloka.

The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 23rd, 2007

Home » Our constitutional body is eternal, could it be that we are presently dreaming?

Murali_Mohan_das · October 23, 2007

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul...” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

I'm sorry, but the above quote is not a proper sentence. I've given up reading your ramblings, but thought that reading the direct quotes you present might be good for me. Now I'm wondering just how you're quoting the scripture (are you transcribing by hand, or getting quotes from the Vedabase???) and how accurate your quotes are.

Here's the Vedabase Isopanisad, verse 12:

http://vedabase.net/iso/12/en

I think this is the passage which you are trying to quote. With the first part of the sentence and a comma, it starts to make sense.

Such mental speculators do not know that the Absolute Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa, that the impersonal Brahman is the glaring effulgence of His transcendental body, or that the Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is His all-pervading plenary representation. Nor do they know that Kṛṣṇa has His eternal form with its transcendental qualities of eternal bliss and knowledge. The dependent demigods and great sages imperfectly consider Him to be a powerful demigod, and they consider the Brahman effulgence to be the Absolute Truth. But the devotees of Kṛṣṇa, by dint of their surrendering unto Him and their unalloyed devotion, can know that He is the Absolute Person and that everything emanates from Him. Such devotees continuously render loving service unto Kṛṣṇa, the fountainhead of everything.

Why mangle the words of the Vaishnava when you can cite an authoritative source?

Vigraha · October 24, 2007

"Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now materially manifested, being covered by the material body and mind. The activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of the activities of the original, spiritual senses.... In our pure spiritual form, free from all material contamination, real enjoyment of the senses is possible.Śrī Īśopaniṣad 11 purport

Some say up the road from Mayapur that we have not fallen down from Goloka and no one can fall from Goloka. They also claim we have never been in Goloka to fall from there. The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita".

Yes, that is true, we can never fall as Srila Prabhupada has ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO GET THROUGHT TO US. Try to understand that our svarupa body can never fall from Goloka -

"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all, when the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

The following verse from Krsna Book refers to souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE and on their way to re-establishing their relationship with Krishna, therefore they first go to a place in the material world where Krishna is having His transcendental pastimes before they go back home, back to Godhead and awakened to their perpetual “svarupa body” that has always been in Goloka -

"Those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly." Srila Prabhupadas Krsna Book

It is very clear that Krsna Book is referring to the conditioned souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE (the mahat-tattva) and on their way back to re-establishing or reawakening their eternal svarupa bodily relationship with Krishna that is perpetually founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Krsna's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna's appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe.

Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will.

Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape? - 760708ed.wdc Conversations

So it is a fact that we have all originally come from Goloka.

Vigraha · October 24, 2007

I'm sorry, but the above quote is not a proper sentence. I've given up reading your ramblings, but thought that reading the direct quotes you present might be good for me. Now I'm wondering just how you're quoting the scripture (are you transcribing by hand, or getting quotes from the Vedabase???) and how accurate your quotes are.

Here's the Vedabase Isopanisad, verse 12:

http://vedabase.net/iso/12/en

I think this is the passage which you are trying to quote. With the first part of the sentence and a comma, it starts to make sense.

Why mangle the words of the Vaishnava when you can cite an authoritative source?

Thats a fair point, anyway -

"The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes. In its diseased condition, the spirit soul engages in material activities under the material covering. Realsense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our real spiritual form, free from all material contamination, pure enjoyment of the senses is possible".Srī Isopanisad 11 Srila Prabhupada's purport Text 11 purport

"The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original positon".- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101.

"The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original positon" - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101.

The pratisthacharya of the Sri sampradaya, Srila Ramanujacharya also states:

atma-svarupa-matrasya prag eva siddhatve'pi karma-bandha-vinirmuktaparicchinna-jnanadi-svarupasya hy atravirbhava ucyate.

"Here it's stated that the specific form of the jiva's constitutional body was known, existing in perfection. Upon the manifestation of that form of unlimited knowledge, the jiva is freed from karmic bondage". - Vedanta-sara commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.4.2

"Upon attaining the goal of the Supreme Soul, He serves in his own personal luster and color and in his own personal form of bliss. At that time, the jiva again attains his imperishable form, completely uncovered and free from impediment". - Pada-ratnavali commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Jiva Gosvami's commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam also states the jiva has an eternal perpetual form 11.11.3:

vastuto nitya-mukto'pi pratitito 'nadi-baddha

iti yugapad ubhayatvam ghatata ity arthah.

"Simultaneously, both are transpiring: the jiva is eternally liberated in substantive form and is bound without beginning".

We are considered eternally conditioned, because it has been such a long, long time. The history can never be traced out. The history may well be previous to this kalpa's Brahma. The history of our conditioning is before the material creation:

"And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are--I mean to say--sent to this material world". - Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Buffalo, April 23, 1969

Guruvani · October 24, 2007

So, nitya-siddhas can become nitya-baddha.

That is the message we hear.

So, really there is no such thing as nitya-siddha or nitya-baddha because nitya-siddhas can fall down and nitya-baddhas can become liberated.

Why does shastra even refer to nitya-siddha if the nitya-siddhas are falling down by the billions and rejecting Krishna because they decide they want to give maya a try and reject service to Krishna?

All-in-all, it just sounds like a lot of contradictions and talking out both sides of the mouth saying two different things.

So, there is no such thing as "siddha" because the siddha can become baddha and the baddha was actually siddha before he became baddha.

Is the Hare Krishna philosophy just a confused and they don't really know what they are saying?

It appears so.

The philosophy is not consistent.

It is comprised of contradictions and it appears they are confused what they actually believe and teach.

Maybe it is all just just so much confusion and nobody really knows what they are saying?

When Krishna says that nitya-siddhas are infallible then he must have been confused.

According to his devotees the nitya-siddhas are fallible and falling down like flies by the billions.

Guruvani · October 24, 2007

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (

Tattva Viveka

2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is

avidya.

Avidya

is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This

avidya

did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of

karma

of the

jiva

arose when he was at the

tatastha

position. As such, the beginning of

karma

is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account

karma

is beginningless. (

Jaiva Dharma,

pag 234)

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