sacrifice for this age - Hearing the transcendental message of Godhead

[theist]

 

SB 1.1.4 - Once, in a holy place in the forest of Naimisharanya, great sages headed by the sage Saunaka assembled to perform a great thousand-year sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Lord and His devotees.

SB 1.1.5 - One day, after finishing their morning duties by burning a sacrificial fire and offering a seat of esteem to Srila Suta Gosvami, the great sages made inquiries, with great respect, about the following matters.

 

SB 1.1.6 - The sages said: Respected Suta Gosvami, you are completely free from all vice. You are well versed in all the scriptures famous for religious life, and in the Puranas and the histories as well, for you have gone through them under proper guidance and have also explained them.

 

SB 1.1.7 - Being the eldest learned Vedantist, O Suta Gosvami, you are acquainted with the knowledge of Vyasadeva, who is the incarnation of Godhead, and you also know other sages who are fully versed in all kinds of physical and metaphysical knowledge.

 

SB 1.1.8 - And because you are submissive, your spiritual masters have endowed you with all the favors bestowed upon a gentle disciple. Therefore you can tell us all that you have scientifically learned from them.

 

SB 1.1.9 - Please, therefore, being blessed with many years, explain to us, in an easily understandable way, what you have ascertained to be the absolute and ultimate good for the people in general.

 

SB 1.1.10 - O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.

 

SB 1.1.11 - There are many varieties of scriptures, and in all of them there are many prescribed duties, which can be learned only after many years of study in their various divisions. Therefore, O sage, please select the essence of all these scriptures and explain it for the good of all living beings, that by such instruction their hearts may be fully satisfied.

 

SB 1.1.12 - All blessings upon you, O Suta Gosvami. You know for what purpose the Personality of Godhead appeared in the womb of Devaki as the son of Vasudeva.

 

SB 1.1.13 - O Suta Gosvami, we are eager to learn about the Personality of Godhead and His incarnations. Please explain to us those teachings imparted by previous masters [acaryas], for one is uplifted both by speaking them and by hearing them.

 

SB 1.1.14 - Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Krishna, which is feared by fear personified.

 

SB 1.1.15 - O Suta, those great sages who have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord can at once sanctify those who come in touch with them, whereas the waters of the Ganges can sanctify only after prolonged use.

 

SB 1.1.16 - Who is there, desiring deliverance from the vices of the age of quarrel, who is not willing to hear the virtuous glories of the Lord?

 

SB 1.1.17 - His transcendental acts are magnificent and gracious, and great learned sages like Narada sing of them. Please, therefore, speak to us, who are eager to hear about the adventures He performs in His various incarnations.

 

SB 1.1.18 - O wise Suta, please narrate to us the transcendental pastimes of the Supreme Godhead's multi-incarnations. Such auspicious adventures and pastimes of the Lord, the supreme controller, are performed by His internal powers.

 

SB 1.1.19 - We never tire of hearing the transcendental pastimes of the Personality of Godhead, who is glorified by hymns and prayers. Those who have developed a taste for transcendental relationships with Him relish hearing of His pastimes at every moment.

 

SB 1.1.20 - Lord Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead, along with Balarama, played like a human being, and so masked He performed many superhuman acts.

 

SB 1.1.21 - Knowing well that the age of Kali has already begun, we are assembled here in this holy place to hear at great length the transcendental message of Godhead and in this way perform sacrifice.

SB 1.1.22 - We think that we have met Your Goodness by the will of providence, just so that we may accept you as captain of the ship for those who desire to cross the difficult ocean of Kali, which deteriorates all the good qualities of a human being.

 

SB 1.1.23 - Since Sri Krishna, the Absolute Truth, the master of all mystic powers, has departed for His own abode, please tell us to whom the religious principles have now gone for shelter.

 

What need is there for anyother sacrifice or practice?

[Guruvani]

 

What need is there for anyother sacrifice or practice?

 

but if after one makes the sacrifice of hearing and then doesn't follow the instructions what good is it?

 

the Bhagavatam contains instructions.

just hearing is not everything.

there are instructions to be followed or the hearing is not complete.

[fish]

 

SB 1.1.4 - Once, in a holy place in the forest of Naimisharanya, great sages headed by the sage Saunaka assembled to perform a great thousand-year sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Lord and His devotees.

 

Oh thanks, the scripture so pleases and freshens as anything else

[theist]

My pleasure to be of service fish.

 

The more we concentrate on the transcendental message of Godhead the more we can join those great sages of Naimaisharanya forest in their sacrifice. The inner life of such sacrifices has no time limit like a thousand years imposed on it from material nature. We can be confident their sacrifice is still going on unbroken.

 

The more we concentrate on the trascendental message of Godhead, as passed down through Suta Gosvami, and even amongst our chit chat and inspite of our minds wild forays into mental speculation and acrimony with each other, the closer we come to the outskirts of that great assembly and one day by the grace of Krsna and gurus we may even be allow to it among them.

 

This is obviously the reason Janava Nitai das maintains this site, to give us a training ground in Krsna Katha and I feel I must once again apologize for misusing it.

 

Please help me improve by reminding me always of my need to hear and chant the transcendental message of Godhead.

 

Haribol

[fish]

I think, that your reason is very serious, Shrila Prabhupada emphasized what to hear the God is very important, even more important than to see. Because seeing Krishna we cannot understand Him, but hearing Him even after 5000 years we can understand Him. I am glad to see a place in a scripture which confirms this moment of first importance.

 

Hare Krishna

[fish]

And the beginning of Bhagavatam is fundamental

[Madanmohandas]

The instruction of the Bhagavat is to hear the Bhagavat. Only those who don't read it get confused with the idea that having read it you would then have something else to do. I remember one senior devotee asking me, the first time I had completed the text, what I would now do to implement the teachings, to which I replied, 'I will read it again and again'. That devotee, like others who hardly ever read the Bhagavat, grew angry at me. Aha! what a fool!

[Madanmohandas]

zrI-govinda padAmbhoja madhuno mahad-adbhutam/

yat-pAyino na muhyanti muhyanti yad-apAyinah//

 

The liquor distilled from Sri Govinda's lotus-feet is passing wondrous;

those who drink it to excess remain free from infatuation,

while those that refuse it, become intoxicated by illusion.

 

Kulasekhara Raja

[Guruvani]

 

The instruction of the Bhagavat is to hear the Bhagavat. Only those who don't read it get confused with the idea that having read it you would then have something else to do. I remember one senior devotee asking me, the first time I had completed the text, what I would now do to implement the teachings, to which I replied, 'I will read it again and again'. That devotee, like others who hardly ever read the Bhagavat, grew angry at me. Aha! what a fool!

None of the Saraswata acharyas have approved of a devotee just reading the books without doing any service to the spiritual master or the deities.

 

The BOOKVADIs have missed the essential instruction of the Bhagavatam about the impotanace of rendering service to the pure devotee.

 

Reading and reading and reading with no service to the cause of Mahaprabhu is not what the acharyas have taught.

 

We need to serve the mission of Mahaprabhu, not just set around our houses reading books and ignoring all the Vaishnavas.

 

BOOKVADIS have a serious disconnect from the practical instructions of the acharyas.

They think they can set around reading books and actually make spiritual advancement without serving the spiritual master.

 

That of course is a pipe-dream for the seriously misguided.

[Madanmohandas]

What nonsense. Hearing and reading the Bhagavat is the highest service to the guru, to Krsna and devotees. The Bhagavatam is Krsna himself transposed into words and the more familiar an aspirant becomes with that holy text, the more Krsna reveals himself, through the ears. Especially reciting and hearing in the company of sensitive devotees, and relishing or seeking to relish and enjoy. Some are afraid to 'enjoy' spiritual practices thinking it is incompatible with a service dispostion. Talk about seriously misgiuded! Who said anything about not serving the spiritual master;again, hearing and reciting the Bhagavatam is serving the spiritual master. If that cannot be appreciated it is due to not studying the scriptures with deep attention, or not studying them at all, most likely the latter.

 

nigama-kalpa-taror-galitaM phalaM

suka-mukhAd-amrta-drava-saMyutam/

pibata bhAgavataM rasam-AlayaM

muhur-aho rasikA bhuvi bhAvukAh// Bhag.1.1.3

 

O connoisseurs and sensitive devotees! Drink deep repeatedly

to inebriety, this store-house of nectar, the Bhagavat-

the fruit of the scripture-tree, flowing from the mouth of

Suka, the great parrot, perched on that tree and

pecking at its fruit.

 

nigama-kalpa-taru-vigalita-phala/

suka-mukhe patita amrta madhutara//

ksiti-tale nipatita bhAgavata nAma/

piya, re bhAvuka bhAi, rasika sujana//

 

Means more or less the same but its in Bengali verse.

[Guruvani]

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 11.31

 

aradhananam sarvesam

visnor aradhanam param

tasmat parataram devi

tadiyanam samarcanam

 

SYNONYMS

aradhananam -- of varieties of worship; sarvesam -- all; visnoh -- of Lord Visnu; aradhanam -- worship; param -- the most exalted; tasmat -- and above such worship of Lord Visnu; parataram -- of greater value; devi -- O goddess; tadiyanam -- of persons in relationship with Lord Visnu; samarcanam -- rigid and firm worship.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"[Lord Siva told the goddess Durga:] 'My dear Devi, although the Vedas recommend worship of demigods, the worship of Lord Visnu is topmost. However, above the worship of Lord Visnu is the rendering of service to Vaisnavas, who are related to Lord Visnu.'

 

 

Worshiping of the acharya is topmost.

[fish]

We are anyhow inclined to develop different insignificant ideas, making them a "basis" and heeling that in one party in another. But beginning of Bhagavatam is fundamental and establishes us in devotion very well. Then we cease to loom in mind and to invent

Hearing about a spiritual subject - conducting process and sages of Naimisharanya, notwithstanding what everyone were very much skilled and had many pupils, came to hear glory of the Lord. They did not think: We Shall go to chant better, etc. The Present process should be shown

 

SB 1.1.21 - Knowing well that the age of Kali has already begun, we are assembled here in this holy place to hear at great length the transcendental message of Godhead and in this way perform sacrifice.

[fish]

Worshiping of the acharya is hearing of the acharya.

[gHari]

From the Sri Caitanya-caritamrita verse Adi 3.40:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>kali-yuge yuga-dharma----nAmera pracAra

tathi lAgi' pIta-varNa caitanyAvatAra

</CENTER>

kali-yuge--in the Age of Kali; <B>yuga-dharma--the religious practice for the age</B>; nAmera--of the holy name; pracAra--propagation; tathi--this; lAgi'--for; pIta-varNa--having a yellow color; caitanya-avatAra--the incarnation of Lord Caitanya.

<B></FONT>

The religious practice for the Age of Kali is to broadcast the glories of the holy name. Only for this purpose has the Lord, in a yellow color, descended as Lord Caitanya.

 

PURPORT

</B>In this Age of Kali the practical system of religion for everyone is the chanting of the name of Godhead. This was introduced in this age by Lord Caitanya. Bhakti-yoga actually begins with the chanting of the holy name, as confirmed by MadhvAcArya in his commentary on the MuNDaka UpaniSad. He quotes this verse from the NArAyaNa-saMhitA:

<CENTER>

dvAparIyair janair viSNuH

paJcarAtrais tu kevalaiH

kalau tu nAma-mAtreNa

pUjyate bhagavAn hariH

</CENTER>

"In the DvApara-yuga people should worship Lord ViSNu only by the regulative principles of the NArada-paJcarAtra and other such authorized books. In the Age of Kali, however, people should simply chant the holy names of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." The Hare KRSNa mantra is specifically mentioned in many UpaniSads, such as the Kali-santaraNa UpaniSad, where it is said:

<CENTER>

hare kRSNa hare kRSNa

kRSNa kRSNa hare hare

hare rAma hare rAma

rAma rAma hare hare

 

iti SoDazakaM nAmnAM

kali-kalmaSa-nAzanaM

nAtaH parataropAyaH

sarva-vedeSu dRzyate

</CENTER>

"After searching through all the Vedic literature, one cannot find a method of religion more sublime for this age than the chanting of Hare KRSNa."

 

</BLOCKQUOTE>

[theist]

 

"In the DvApara-yuga people should worship Lord ViSNu only by the regulative principles of the NArada-paJcarAtra and other such authorized books. In the Age of Kali, however, people should simply chant the holy names of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." The Hare KRSNa mantra is specifically mentioned in many UpaniSads, such as the Kali-santaraNa UpaniSad, where it is said:[...]

<center>

</center>

[som]

Sometimes when I visit this site I do read your posts Theist and it surely does have a Krishna conscious element to it. So, please do not think that you are not involving in Krishna conscious discussions.

 

You are indeed doing it!!! Hare Krishna!

 

 

My pleasure to be of service fish.

 

The more we concentrate on the transcendental message of Godhead the more we can join those great sages of Naimaisharanya forest in their sacrifice. The inner life of such sacrifices has no time limit like a thousand years imposed on it from material nature. We can be confident their sacrifice is still going on unbroken.

 

The more we concentrate on the trascendental message of Godhead, as passed down through Suta Gosvami, and even amongst our chit chat and inspite of our minds wild forays into mental speculation and acrimony with each other, the closer we come to the outskirts of that great assembly and one day by the grace of Krsna and gurus we may even be allow to it among them.

 

This is obviously the reason Janava Nitai das maintains this site, to give us a training ground in Krsna Katha and I feel I must once again apologize for misusing it.

 

Please help me improve by reminding me always of my need to hear and chant the transcendental message of Godhead.

 

Haribol

[Madanmohandas]

 

Worshiping of the acharya is topmost.

 

Silly. If you look at the verse you will see 'tadiyAnAm' things related to Krsna. That means Guru, Tulsi, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc. What's the good of quoting these things?

[Guruvani]

 

Silly. If you look at the verse you will see 'tadiyAnAm' things related to Krsna. That means Guru, Tulsi, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc. What's the good of quoting these things?

 

I looked at the verse.

I follow the translation of Srila Prabhupada, not yours.

 

Your translation is seriously flawed.

[stonehearted]

 

I looked at the verse.

I follow the translation of Srila Prabhupada, not yours.

 

Your translation is seriously flawed.

I see a big problem with such a narrow approach: Srila Prabhupada cited this verse from Padma Purana many times in his books and talks, and translated it in different ways. Srila Prabhupada often gives tadiya as "the vaishnavas"; just as often, however, he says something like "anything related to Vishnu." Here's one example:

 

Thus following in the footsteps of Maharaja Prataparudra and other devotees, we should learn to worship everything belonging to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is referred to by Lord Siva as tadiyanam. In the Padma Purana it is said:

 

 

aradhananam sarvesam visnor aradhanam param

tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam

 

"O Devi, the most exalted system of worship is the worship of Lord Visnu. Greater than that is the worship of tadiya, or anything belonging to Visnu." Sri Visnu is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]. (

Cc.

Madhya 12.38, purport)

 

In his discussion here, the guru heads the list of tadiya, but Srila Prabhupada rounds it out with the things used by the Lord and the vaishnavas. Here's another:

 

So in the

Siva Purana

, there was a question by Parvati to Lord Siva. Lord Siva and Parvati, husband and wife. Parvati means the material nature.

Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga

[bs. 5.44]. Durga-devi. Durga-devi is in charge of this material world. It is called

durga

,

durga

, just like fort. And the superintendent of this fort is Durga. You cannot go out of this fort; you are imprisoned. So such Durga-devi, who is so powerful energy -- she can create, annihilate, maintain,

srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana

--she is always sitting by the side of her husband, Lord Siva, and questioning about spiritual enquiries. Just see. Such powerful deity is also ignorant about spiritual life. So the husband, Lord Siva, is Vaisnava, and she's always asking, and sitting down underneath a

bael

tree. She can create so many universes, but for her, no building; only underneath a tree.

 

 

So the question was, "Which worship is best?" So Lord Siva replied,

aradhananam sarvesam visnor aradhanam param

: "My dear Parvati, of all methods of worship, Visnu worship is the topmost." There are many demigods' worship, even Lord Siva's worship, but Lord Siva says, "Visnu worship is the best." Then he says again,

tasmat parataram devi

. "My dear Devi, better than that Visnu worship is

tadiyanam samarcanam

."

Tadiya

.

Tadiya

means those who are in relationship with Visnu,

tadiya

. Just like His devotee,

tadiya

.

Tulasi-vrksa

. Tulasi is

tadiya

. Or temple

tadiya

. Preaching tadiya.

Tadiyanam samarcanam

. This is

bhagavata

. So Lord Siva recommends that "Of all methods of worship, Visnu worship is the best, and better than Visnu worship is to worship His devotee or things in relationship with Him." (Lecture on SB 1.2.18, 8/21/72)

 

Here's yet another:

 

Bathing in the Ganges and serving a pure Vaisnava are also known as

tadiya-upasanam

. This is also

pada-sevanam

. The word

tadiya

means "in relationship with the Lord." Service to the Vaisnava, Tulasi, Ganges and Yamuna are included in

pada-sevanam

. (

SB

7.5.23-24, purport)

 

Your assertion, then, that the translation of tadiya as "things related to Krishna" is "seriously flawed" is somthing you may want to reconsider. It is, in fact, quite accurate, as Srila Prabhupada confirms many times.

[Guruvani]

 

ya as "things related to Krishna" is "seriously flawed" is somthing you may want to reconsider. It is, in fact, quite accurate, as Srila Prabhupada confirms many times.

 

the word must be taken in consideration and context of the whole meaning of the verse.

If we take the word out and put it into a different context, then the meaning can be different.

 

Srila Prabhupada specifically translated it as "Vaishnava".

 

Maybe some others would like to change that translation and use their own idea.

 

Many Sanskrit words have different meanings within the context of the whole verse.

 

Srila Prabhupada sees it as meaning "Vaishnava" and I accept that meaning.

 

In the context of the verse there is the subject of demigods and Lord Vishnu.

The verse is dealing with different worshipable deities.

The verse is refering to the worship of different deities, not worshiping objects.

 

So, in this verse the word tadiya is specifically dealing with deities (persons), so the translation as "objects" is not appropriate in this context.

[Madanmohandas]

What you ought to have quoted really is;

 

yasya deve parA bhaktir-yathA deve tathA gurau/

tasyaite kathitA hyarthAh prkAzante mahAtmanah// Svet.Up

 

If these truths have been told to a high minded man,

who feels the highest devotion for his god, and for

his guru as his god, then they will shine forth indeed.

 

Anyway. No one is denying the exalted position of the guru; its just a smoke screen to cover up the original point.

Sanatana Goswami says, in praise of the Bhagavat;

 

mad-eka bandhu mat-sangin mad-guro man-mahA-dhana/

man-nistAraka mad-bhAgya mad-Ananda namo'stu te//

 

My only friend, my companion, my guru and my great wealth;

my redeemer, my fortune and my joy - I bow to thee.

 

 

And without reading the Padma Puran, how will you know the context of Sri Mahadeva's words. One would at least need to know a few verses before and after.

It's not a question in the 'ArAdhnAnAM...etc., sloka of context here. As others have wisely pointed out Srila Prabhpad oft quoted it to support various propositions.

This is called 'arguing the toss' where I come from.

madiya-mine.

bhavadiya-yours.

tadiya-his

 

And yes, Srila Prabhupad reads it as vaisnava, absolutely. But you cited it originally as if it refered exclusively to the acarya.

 

Nice quote Stonehearted.

[Guruvani]

 

 

And yes, Srila Prabhupad reads it as vaisnava, absolutely. But you cited it originally as if it refered exclusively to the acarya.

 

 

well, we also need to understand the difference between aspiring Vaishnavas and the actual self-realized Vaishnava.

 

most of the sadhaka section are aspiring to be Vaishnava, not yet really there.

 

When Lord Siva refers to that which is in relation to Lord Vishnu he means that which is of the same quality.

 

The acharya is the true Vaishnava and the sadhakas are aspiring to be "tadiya" or in relation to Lord Vishnu.

 

So, I seperate the true Vaishnava - the acharya from the aspiring sadhakas who are aspiring to be a true Vaishnava.

 

Lord Siva is refering to the true, self-realized Vaishnava, not the aspiring Vaishnavas who come and go like Johns at a brothel.

[Madanmohandas]

Well, I'll go with what Prabhupad says as quoted above. You can argue till you you turn as blue as Krsna.

The thing is it's no good undermining the importance of absorbtion in hearing and reciting the Bhagavatam and the like scriptures. If more people actually studied these books, which Prabhupad very kindly popularised in the west, then we might be able to discuss things more in terms of the subject as it is.

It can be daunting enough to people when they see how much there is to read, and it takes years to get familiar with the books, so we should be encouraged to get right into it.

Work now, samadhi later.

[Guruvani]

 

Well, I'll go with what Prabhupad says as quoted above. You can argue till you you turn as blue as Krsna.

The thing is it's no good undermining the importance of absorbtion in hearing and reciting the Bhagavatam and the like scriptures. If more people actually studied these books, which Prabhupad very kindly popularised in the west, then we might be able to discuss things more in terms of the subject as it is.

It can be daunting enough to people when they see how much there is to read, and it takes years to get familiar with the books, so we should be encouraged to get right into it.

Work now, samadhi later.

 

I don't disagree with any of that.

But, I don't agree with butchering a verse Srila Prabhupada translated and adding our unqualified, unrealized interpretation based upon our speculation.

[stonehearted]

Since it's Srila Prabhupada who says, "Then he says again, tasmat parataram devi. "My dear Devi, better than that Visnu worship is tadiyanam samarcanam." Tadiya. Tadiya means those who are in relationship with Visnu, tadiya. Just like His devotee, tadiya. Tulasi-vrksa. Tulasi is tadiya. Or temple tadiya. Preaching tadiya. Tadiyanam samarcanam. This is bhagavata. So Lord Siva recommends that "Of all methods of worship, Visnu worship is the best, and better than Visnu worship is to worship His devotee or things in relationship with Him," and not just on this one occasion, I don't see how you can reasonably call another way of reading the verse that's not different in substance from that one translation butchering, speculation, or "seriously flawed." That reading comes directly from Srila Prabhupada.

 

That said, Prabhupada's use of tadiya, especially in his books, is essentially worshiping the vaisnavas. As far as which vaishnavas are on the same level as the Lord, here's what Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has to say:

 

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

 

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself. (

Cc

. Antya 4.192)

 

 

It is significant that the Lord qualifies that with atma-samarpana. That leaves the question of who is qualified to judge. You guys can argue that until go-dhuli. I have to get myself moved out of my house so our renters can move in.