Madanmohandas

O yes of course. I had it as 'imaculate'. Untainted and stainless and uncontaminated are good synonyms too. Anyway I'm going to withdraw from this internet sanga now as I find it a bit dangerous.

Where else did we see 'amala'?

So I'm off for today. See if anyone offers some deliberations on the first point. 'Divine truths are declared in the Vedas'. Vaisnava carane dandavat

Thanks for the encouragement Theist. Here's Baladeva Vidyabhusana's 9 propostions derived from Madhva. 1. Visnu is supreme. 2. He is known through the scripture. 3. The universe is real. 4. The differences therein are real. 5. The jivas are servants of Hari and are real. 6. The differences among them are real. 7. Liberation consists in obtaining the feet of Visnu. 8. The means is worship with purity of heart. 9. The proofs are three - perception, inference and holy writ. Then Srinatha Cakravarti's verse found in the invocation to his commentary on the Bhagavatam. 1. The almighty lord and object of worship is the son of the cowherd chief. 2. His sacred abode is Vrndavan. 3. The highest and most delightful mode of adoration is that concieved by the young brides of Vraja. 4. Srimad Bhagavatam is the imaculate proof. 5. Divine love is the ultimate end.

Well it's Thakura Bhaktivinoda's inovation, based on something Baladeva Vidyabhusana did showing how the nine prameyas or propositions of Madhva Acarya corelate to the teachings of lord Gauranga. Bhaktivinoda has derived it almost entirely on the teachings found in the Caitanya Caritamrta. There was also the famous verse of Srinatha Cakravarti, ArAdhyo bhagavAn... etc. which Bhaktivinoda wanted to expand on, and with a kind of synthisis of the two ( Baladeva's and Srinatha's) prameyas, came up with the Dasa Mula. All Bhaktivoda's major works include the detailed analysis of the Dasa Mula, particularly Jaiva Dharma, Caitanya Siksamrta, Hari Nama Cintamani etc. Baladeva's Prameya Ratnavali expounds the nine prameyas. When I come back I can list them here too. Oh and 'Sri Caitanya His Life and Precepts' offers the perfect explanations in the Thakura's own English. It's in the second part, 'His Pecepts'.

Interesting stuff. I guess some people will get the impression that when Prabhupad says Krsna consciousness is scientific they think in terms of modern science. Well Krsna says; rAjavidyA rAjaguhyaM pavitramidamuttamam/ pratyakSAvagamaM dharmyaM susukhaM kartumavyayam// Gita 9.2 A royal lore, and mystery, The best of sanctifiers this, Of easy practice, plainly seen, Unperishing, not 'gainst the law. 'sarvam tattvatah' all established truths or verities.

O yes, my experience of ISKCON is limited. I was there from 83-87. And I know they have now publeshed a book on Dasa Mula. I should not have said that maybe-no offence intended.

What about the Dasa mula? If I list them here and invite whoever feels like it to comment or explain with referance from sastra each point, or a few people could give their explanations on the first point and then we could proceed point by point. It could be great fun. Perhaps I should start a new thread for it. See what the moderator decides. atha, now then, 1. Divine truths are declared in the Vedas. 2. Hari is supreme. 3. He is endowed with infinite power. 4. He is the repositry of rasa. 5. Living entities are his disassociated parts. 6. Some are covered by Maya. 7. Some are released from Maya. 8. All existance is distinct and non-distinct from Hari. 9. The means to actualise realisation is bhakti. 10. The ultimate fulfilment is intence love for Hari. We can get a lot of pleasure explaining all these points, as lord Krsna says, mac-cittA mad-gata-prANA bodhayantah parasparam/ kathayantazca mAM nityaM tuSyanti ca ramanti ca// Gita 10.9 Minds fixed in me, lives giv'n to me, Each praising me to each, Of me conversing always they, With joy and peace are filled.

The systematic treatment of the subject is what is lacking, if I may say, in ISKCON. Various answers might be givin to one question. The 'scientific' approach to this kind of subject would be that of analasasys and synthesis. Thakura Bhaktivinoda provided the 'Dasa Mula' or ten fundamental priciples of Gaudiya Vaisnava doctrine. Those ten points present the teachings of lord Gauranga in a way that can be commited to memory and the devotee can relish the explanations of each point. Systematising the teachings in that way is very helpful. In the Gaudiya Mission it is compulsory for new comers to learn by heart the Dasa Mula. It's like learning by rote which creates an impression on the mind.

We were not someone else in our last lives, but the same self that we are now, and will continue to be. How can you actually refute the theory?

'Butchering a verse Srila Prabhupad translated' speak for yourself. Really quite an outrageous thing to say. Do you take pleasure in it? We can surely analyse the text to gain deeper meanings. It is a wonderful verse and thanks for quoting it. Just imagine, the great lord Siva imparting the highest truth to his beloved and devoted consort, addressing her as 'devi', goddess. O goddess! ArAdhanAnAM sarvesaM, of all varieties of adoration, viSNu ArAdhanaM param, the adoration of Visnu is highest; tasmAd, therefore, parataraM, superior to that, tadiyAnAm samarcanam, is the worship of those things and persons belonging and related to him.

Well, I'll go with what Prabhupad says as quoted above. You can argue till you you turn as blue as Krsna. The thing is it's no good undermining the importance of absorbtion in hearing and reciting the Bhagavatam and the like scriptures. If more people actually studied these books, which Prabhupad very kindly popularised in the west, then we might be able to discuss things more in terms of the subject as it is. It can be daunting enough to people when they see how much there is to read, and it takes years to get familiar with the books, so we should be encouraged to get right into it. Work now, samadhi later.

What you ought to have quoted really is; yasya deve parA bhaktir-yathA deve tathA gurau/ tasyaite kathitA hyarthAh prkAzante mahAtmanah// Svet.Up If these truths have been told to a high minded man, who feels the highest devotion for his god, and for his guru as his god, then they will shine forth indeed. Anyway. No one is denying the exalted position of the guru; its just a smoke screen to cover up the original point. Sanatana Goswami says, in praise of the Bhagavat; mad-eka bandhu mat-sangin mad-guro man-mahA-dhana/ man-nistAraka mad-bhAgya mad-Ananda namo'stu te// My only friend, my companion, my guru and my great wealth; my redeemer, my fortune and my joy - I bow to thee. And without reading the Padma Puran, how will you know the context of Sri Mahadeva's words. One would at least need to know a few verses before and after. It's not a question in the 'ArAdhnAnAM...etc., sloka of context here. As others have wisely pointed out Srila Prabhpad oft quoted it to support various propositions. This is called 'arguing the toss' where I come from. madiya-mine. bhavadiya-yours. tadiya-his And yes, Srila Prabhupad reads it as vaisnava, absolutely. But you cited it originally as if it refered exclusively to the acarya. Nice quote Stonehearted.

Silly. If you look at the verse you will see 'tadiyAnAm' things related to Krsna. That means Guru, Tulsi, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc. What's the good of quoting these things?

What nonsense. Hearing and reading the Bhagavat is the highest service to the guru, to Krsna and devotees. The Bhagavatam is Krsna himself transposed into words and the more familiar an aspirant becomes with that holy text, the more Krsna reveals himself, through the ears. Especially reciting and hearing in the company of sensitive devotees, and relishing or seeking to relish and enjoy. Some are afraid to 'enjoy' spiritual practices thinking it is incompatible with a service dispostion. Talk about seriously misgiuded! Who said anything about not serving the spiritual master;again, hearing and reciting the Bhagavatam is serving the spiritual master. If that cannot be appreciated it is due to not studying the scriptures with deep attention, or not studying them at all, most likely the latter. nigama-kalpa-taror-galitaM phalaM suka-mukhAd-amrta-drava-saMyutam/ pibata bhAgavataM rasam-AlayaM muhur-aho rasikA bhuvi bhAvukAh// Bhag.1.1.3 O connoisseurs and sensitive devotees! Drink deep repeatedly to inebriety, this store-house of nectar, the Bhagavat- the fruit of the scripture-tree, flowing from the mouth of Suka, the great parrot, perched on that tree and pecking at its fruit. nigama-kalpa-taru-vigalita-phala/ suka-mukhe patita amrta madhutara// ksiti-tale nipatita bhAgavata nAma/ piya, re bhAvuka bhAi, rasika sujana// Means more or less the same but its in Bengali verse.

Amazing! Have you got 'Ananda Vrndavan Campu' by Kavi Karnapur? you can get that in English. I'd love to get a copy of th 'Gopala Campu'. Judging by the chapter titles it promises to be a treasury of nectar.

zrI-govinda padAmbhoja madhuno mahad-adbhutam/ yat-pAyino na muhyanti muhyanti yad-apAyinah// The liquor distilled from Sri Govinda's lotus-feet is passing wondrous; those who drink it to excess remain free from infatuation, while those that refuse it, become intoxicated by illusion. Kulasekhara Raja

The instruction of the Bhagavat is to hear the Bhagavat. Only those who don't read it get confused with the idea that having read it you would then have something else to do. I remember one senior devotee asking me, the first time I had completed the text, what I would now do to implement the teachings, to which I replied, 'I will read it again and again'. That devotee, like others who hardly ever read the Bhagavat, grew angry at me. Aha! what a fool!

Hari bol! It's quite shocking that people can indulge in throwing insults at so many respectable vaisnavas. Whatever quarrels the disciples of Sarasvati Thakura may have had between them are not much different to those that go on all the time in this world. And no one can really determin exactly, because there are no independant or unbiased veiws. The original post was more objective than any of the responses it generated. From my own perspective I find it quite hurtful because my revered gurudev is, nitya lila pravistha 108 Bhakti Srirupa Bhagavat Maharaja. I met him in 1987 in London and stayed with him for a month in the Vasudeva Gaudiya Math, London, and recieved Hari nama and diksa at that time. I also stayed with him at Bagh Bazar Gaudiya Mission on three occasions, each for a month. He left this world in 1993. He spoke very fondly of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and praised his institution. And when he questioned me on what 'ISKCON' means, and I told him, International Society for Krsna Consciousness, be became full of joy and laughted for a while, and then said, in his broken English, 'A very goood term! Aha!'. My point is, we seem to be much more hung up about these controversies than we need to be. If your father had some differance with your uncle or granddad, what's that to you? And as quoted above from the Bhagavat, 'nirmatsarAnAM', we should try to overcome base passions like envy and malice, then we are elegable for hearing the Bhagavat. It cannot be healthy to speak so harshly; there are other ways of expressing things. ps. forgive my spelling. got so used to spell checks, forgot how to spell.

OK that's good. So which edition of Gopala Champu are you reading? Is it available in English? I am quite familiar with the distinctive character of svakiya and parakiya.

Hey is that Kiranasa that I know? Is that the only place for a description of their marriage? I think the question at the top of the thread was why they where not formally married, and therefore still engaged in extra-marital love. I'm not always able to appriciate some of the teachings of Narayana Maharaja, but the above transcription was pretty to the point, don't you think? And if it is you, how are you after so long?

What is the reference that you are citing there itself?

Those nine principle doctrines are taken from Thakura Bhaktivinoda's 'Dasa Mula', which is actually ten principes, nine of which are propositions founded on the first. What is the first then? In order to establish the valid testemony (pramAna) upon which the nine propositions (prameya) are founded, the first priciple determins that the Vedic scriptures, handed down in preceptorial succession, and refered to as 'AmnAya', is established as the valid testemony. The original verse says,; 1.AmnAya prAha tattvaM.....the reality is proclaimed in the 'AmnAya'; 2.harim-iha paramam......here Hari is supreme; 3.sarva zaktim.......he is possessed of infinte power; 4.rasAbdhim.........he is the ocean of rasa; 5.tad-bhinnAMsca jIvAn.......the jivas are his disassociated parts; 6.prakrti kavalitAm.........some are involved/covered by prakrti; 7.tad-vimuktAMsca bhAvAt........some are released from that state; 8.bhedAbheda prakAzaM sakalam-api hareh...everything is manifest as distinct and nondistinct from Hari; 9.sAdhanaM zudha bhaktim.........the means/discipline is unalloyed devotion; 10.sAdhyaM tat-prItiM......the goal is intence love for him;

mleccha nivaha nidhanaM kalayasi karavAlam/ dhUmaketum-iva kimapi karAlam/ kezava dhrta kalki zarIra jaya jagadIza hare// (Jayadeva's Gita Govinda) To route and slaughter the barbarian host, brandishing his mighty sward, appearing like a comet in his fury, Kesava assumes the Kalki form; Hail Hari! Lord of the world! dhumaketu prAya bANa kharga hAte kari/ kATile mlecchera-gaNa mahAyudha kari// yAvadiya mleccha-gaNe karile nidhana/ jaya kalki avatAra jagata kAraNa// (Bengali padyanuvad) Appearing like a comet discharging arrows, brandishing his sward, he cuts down the barbarian host in a mighty conflict 'til all are laid low. Hail Kalki avatara! Cause of the world.

Yes indeed. You might say, 'possible, but not probable'.