Why so many fall down?

[suchandra 1]

In his article, "ISKCON and Varnasrama-Dharma: A Mission Unfulfilled", Ravindra Svarupa das leaves us with an ambivalent conclusion: Yes, we know what to do but we have not yet tried to do.

He tries to explain this contradiction by saying, "it seems that even Prabhupada’s ideas changed", and "In the application of principle to practice we frequently must have recourse to the method of ‘trial-and-error.’ ‘You learn from experience,’ Prabhupada is often quoted as saying. ‘And experience means you make mistakes."

 

However, Prabhupada's words are beyond doubt:

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is …

 

Prabhupada: That is - Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

(Room Conversation: Mayapura, 14 February 1977)

 

Ravindra Swarupa das' conclusion:

 

...Yet over the course of time these projects have evolved largely into suburban-style Hare Krsna communities. We still await the self-sufficient agrarian community in practice. Although there are social and economic reasons why this ideal has failed in practice, I suspect a necessary condition for its future success will be the contribution of genuine brahmanas, whose creation is still ISKCON’s unfulfilled mission....If we continue in this way, I am sure we will become eligible to receive Prabhupada’s legacy and empowered to convey it to the rest of humankind.

 

At least what can be said is that there is some inner conflict and no clear concept how to proceed.

[gHari 0]

Falling down. Here, I am the expert.

 

It is the great ahankara.

 

Since before recorded time we have been subjected, conditioned by life after life in 8,400,000 different forms to scratch and claw out a living, barely able to lift our eyes beyond the next meal. Conditioned to the dictates of the bodies one after another we stand in this human form a mass of attachments, prejudices and whims - completely tied up by ahankara. It has taken eons to make us really believe that we are this body so we can truly enjoy as if separate from Krsna.

 

Now we are to undo all that conditioning and fall in love with Krsna from scratch. It is an insurmountable task, one that is only possible in the final analysis through receiving the rare gift of Krsna's special causeless mercy. Somehow we must attract Him, His heart.

 

They talk about a fan that keeps spinning for a time even after the plug has been pulled out of the wall socket. It is not an easy thing, yet it is an easy thing because all these so many attachments and false conceptions and goals are not really part of us, not part of our eternal self, our true self. They are like mushrooms that have no real root in our soul. They are born in matter and fall away as the soul stands up.

 

Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed one.

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is …

 

Prabhupada: That is - Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

(Room Conversation: Mayapura, 14 February 1977)

 

 

 

Why so many fall down? To a very large extent: because the expectations placed on them are too high. They feel like a failure when they cant approach the idealistic standards and they leave. That is why Prabhupada wanted to set up varnasrama system, where you dont expect everybody to act like a brahmana.

[Guest guest]

And in the general sense: Why so many fall down?

 

Because they have no faith in the process. If you know what happened in the past in our movement, and you see what is going on now in many places: controversies, scandals, neophyte mentality at every step even in people who have been around for three decades - who would not have their doubts? Thus many vote with their feet and leave our movement. Which religious organization lost more than 90% of their members over the years like we did?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Falling down. Here, I am the expert.

 

It is the great ahankara.

 

Since before recorded time we have been subjected, conditioned by life after life in 8,400,000 different forms to scratch and claw out a living, barely able to lift our eyes beyond the next meal. Conditioned to the dictates of the bodies one after another we stand in this human form a mass of attachments, prejudices and whims - completely tied up by ahankara. It has taken eons to make us really believe that we are this body so we can truly enjoy as if separate from Krsna.

 

Now we are to undo all that conditioning and fall in love with Krsna from scratch. It is an insurmountable task, one that is only possible in the final analysis through receiving the rare gift of Krsna's special causeless mercy. Somehow we must attract Him, His heart.

 

They talk about a fan that keeps spinning for a time even after the plug has been pulled out of the wall socket. It is not an easy thing, yet it is an easy thing because all these so many attachments and false conceptions and goals are not really part of us, not part of our eternal self, our true self. They are like mushrooms that have no real root in our soul. They are born in matter and fall away as the soul stands up.

 

Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed one.

 

That is difficult. I think even Sri Arjuna had hard time, so who am we!

[gHari 0]

Surely Ahankara is not the real cause?

[gHari 0]

This is the higher understanding.

 

There is a fault in our heart. Sri Krsna is so kind that He arranges a little training session in maya to correct the flaw. His agent Ahankara comes and puts us through our paces and we eventually correct the flaw.

 

It is all Krsna's mercy; even this trivial existence of nonsense and frivolity, pain and pleasure is His mercy.

 

We have a very dear friend in Lord Sri Krsna.

[gHari 0]

 

That is difficult. I think even Sri Arjuna had hard time, so who am we!

And yet that little sparrow was ready to drain the ocean with her tiny beak, one drop at a time. She could do nothing else, because her heart forced her despite her utter helplessness.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

And in the general sense: Why so many fall down?

 

Because they have no faith in the process. If you know what happened in the past in our movement, and you see what is going on now in many places: controversies, scandals, neophyte mentality at every step even in people who have been around for three decades - who would not have their doubts? Thus many vote with their feet and leave our movement. Which religious organization lost more than 90% of their members over the years like we did?

 

Many aspiring Vaishnavas may have the impression that, before ISKCON, the Gaudiya Vaishnava line was free of controversy and scandal. The more familiar we become with the history,the more we see that, aside from the circumstances, there is nothing unique about today's situation.

 

There have always been scandals and "fall downs". Even in the time of Mahaprabhu (was it Chota Hari Das?).

 

This is why the wise make a distinction between the "aspiring" side and the "inspired" side of each of us.

 

Rather than becoming disheartened by all of the cheating and falsehood, let us become even more determined to fully surrender to the will of the Lord which, surely, will rectify our vision.

[muralidhar_das 0]

When I read Ravindra Swarup's article I felt it was the best thing I've ever read, written by an ISKCON man.

 

Finally, a sensible man speaks the plain facts.

 

Srila Prabhupada DID change his thinking on many issues. Look at his ambivalent statements about varnashrama, his godbrothers, fall of the jiva, americans on the moon, etc. etc.

 

Trial and error, that is what he was doing. He tried different things and the things that worked he encouraged people to practice. What works: street sankirtan; book distribution; archana; promoting vegetarianism;

 

What doesn't work: varnashrama; making homosexuals into sannyasis; skam-kirtan; making money from selling paraphenalia; etc. etc.

[suchandra 1]

Ravindra Svarupa prabhu clearly states that for him it was possible to transcend the modes of material nature and become situated in the liberated platform but considers others within ISKCON as struggling with the modes and not able to achieve his state of spiritual realization - a long analysis but with a missing solution and disappointing.

It also doesnt come to his mind what Srila Prabhupada could have really meant - that it is a great loss for the society when devotees leave and that this great loss is what should be solved. Not to lose devotees.

This is of course never the intention of present ISKCON, to make devotees stay and create powerful congregations but to simply exploit them for a certain period of time and at one point be happy when they're gone and an elite of leaders who take profit from this kind of setup.

For this I could collect signatures and would get an awful lot!

[Devarsirat 0]

we mostly fall down because of offences, daubt and not accepting proper guidance from genuinly advanced devotees. Other causes are not being able to be engaged 24/7 because of having material desires, so our service is mixed, sometimes here sometimes there, this mood that mood, sometimes endevouring and then not.

 

I think this is quiet an acceptable process in the beginning and to be expected. Later we get more taste and begin to understand on a deeper level and become more aware of our offences and loose gradually interest in sense gratification.

 

The main thing is to persevere and not give up, ever. How long does it take a baby to walk? The answer is...until it can walk! We never see a baby lying down for long, even if it bangs its head and falls, it gets up again and starts all over.

 

lets take a lesson from a baby :-)

[Vedesu 0]

Offenses, doubts, asat sanga. Doubts must be cleared up by submissive inquiry from advanced devotees. Without proper faith, how can one follow strictly? Understanding the 10 offenses to the Holy Name and avoiding them will help protect us, especially the 1st, 3rd, and 7th offense. The example above of the baby is quite good. Never give up. Always pick ourselves back up after a falldown. However, one should not take that lightly. Falldowns can be addictive. Whether it's illicit sex, intoxication, eating unoffered foodstuffs, criticizing Sadhus, reducing our chanting, stopping our chanting... all these things begin to feel "normal" after some time. It will feel even more normal if we're associating with nondevotees and for whatever reason, we have no sadhu sanga. We become like the people we associate with. We need to study the books of past and present Acaryas, for therein lie the instructions for remaining steady on the path of Krsna Consciousness and avoiding falldowns. We need to find ways to keep ourselves inspired, and that will come from hearing (which includes reading the books) and chanting. Even if it's just 5 minutes a day, reading something inspirational can make a world of difference with regard to keeping us on the straight and narrow. We know we're fallen when: faced with a choice of spending 2 hours watching a show on TV, or spending those 2 hours chanting 16 rounds, and we choose the former. Making those correct choices becomes easier if there are other devotees nearby. And preferably, devotees who have a higher

taste and who naturally choose devotional activities when confronted with those that are mundane.

[suchandra 1]

Well thanks a lot for taking interest.

When Prabhupada says, varnashram should be introduced he of course wants to establish Lord Caitanya's merciful global Sankirtan Mission and that everybody should be connected with the Sankirtan Mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through varnashram and all should go home back to Godhead.

Somehow we find instead Vaishnavas who explain who is fallen and who is not fallen, "I'm good, you're bad", but what happened with the quality of mercifulness?

Isnt this Lord Caitanya's spirit of saving all the conditioned soul?

Instead prominent gurus write articles:

"we failed to introduce varnashram and spread Lord Caitanya's mercy with the tool of varnashram because we are not fallen, although Prabhupada told us to introduce varnashram with the perspective of saving all the conditioned souls, we don't know how to do it, but we are experimenting and learn through our mistakes.

Meanwhile we feel real sorry about so many thousands of ISKCON members having left, but they're fallen."

[Guruvani 0]

I can't remember exactly where, but I remember a place in the books where Srila Prabhupada explains in the purport that there are two basic issues that I would say can be at the bottom of so many sincere devotes falling down.

 

1. Weakness of heart

2. Attachment to matter

 

So, I think these two categories can cover the reasons why most apparently sincere devotees fall down.

 

As far as the ISKCON failure rate is concerened, I think a lot can be blamed on the fact that ISKCON never really became a utopia like it could have and instead became a top-heavy society with a political bureaucracy clogging up the drain pipe.

 

Many devotees left ISKCON and fell away because they were just turned-off by the repulsive nature of the GBC.

 

If ISKCON could have actually created some utopian sanctuaries where devotees could live together without a political bureaucracy dominating everything and casting a cloud over the atmosphere, then I think ISKCON could have have much grander success.

 

Personally. I am just very turned off to the way ISKCON has evolved and I don't see a really great model of a utopian village or community of devotees where I would really feel inspired and motivated.

 

I think the whole GBC concept should be scrapped.

 

It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a GBC is not ultimately a long term solution to anything.

 

I think devotional communities centered around genuine sincere spiritual leadership is what is needed.

 

I don't think ISKCON with it's GBC is EVER going to fulfill the dream of Srila Prabhupada.

I think that in order for the dream of Srila Prabhupada to be realized an alternative to ISKCON is going rise up from the ashes.

 

After all, in case nobody has noticed, Srila Prabhupada never mentioned "GBC" one time in his books.

[theist 1]

 

Why so many fall down? To a very large extent: because the expectations placed on them are too high. They feel like a failure when they cant approach the idealistic standards and they leave. That is why Prabhupada wanted to set up varnasrama system, where you dont expect everybody to act like a brahmana.

 

I agree. But setting up a large scale varnashrama system is probably the most impractical undoable idea around. Why this topic is even considered and talked about today is baffeling.

 

Why is this section of the Bhagavad-gita rarely if ever focused on?

 

Bg 12.6-7 - But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Påthä-for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death.

 

Bg 12.8 - Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt.

 

Bg 12.9 - My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me.

 

Bg 12.10 - If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage.

 

Bg 12.11 - If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated.

 

Bg 12.12 - If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind.

 

Everyone connects tothe Krsna consciousness movement from where they presently are in consciousness. How could it be otherwise? Many of us are more on the lower rungs of realization. We inhabite the preliminary stages of God consciousness and need to proceed from here upward.

 

By social pressure we may for some time try to establish ourselves of the higher levels of spiritual practice but we won't be able to be there factually in consciousness so our attempts are mostly pretend and bluff to try to fit within the dominant group dynamic whose other memebers are also largely pretend and bluff.

 

Since there is no real nectar on in such a false life we naturally give it up and return to a place where we thought we experienced pleasure in the past i.e. material sense gratification. The fall down.

 

This is not really a fall down IMO because we never were really up in the first place.

 

Better for us to drop the pretense and act on the level most suited to our actual development. From here it is all up in the larger view of things (this process continuing over lifetimes). Minor fluxuations in degrees of practice needn't be seen as major fall downs and traumatic events. They can be expected. When the socio/religious body one is associating with understands this dynamic then there will not be a need for labeling others as fallen with the following ostrazation (sp) and tsk tsk attitude that is so common and drives the beginner farther from the association or it causes him to learn to pretend and bluff that much better so he can regain acceptance.

 

IOW's we need to lighten up on each other and be more supportive to those who aren't able to practice the full sadhana program.

 

And again from another angle what is a fall down really?We are taught that even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous and fear situation. And that the progress we make is held in our spiritual bank accounts and is not lost. We need to define faldown more specifically IMO.

 

What it is not is just leaving a particular sanga.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

I agree. But setting up a large scale varnashrama system is probably the most impractical undoable idea around. Why this topic is even considered and talked about today is baffeling.

 

Why is this section of the Bhagavad-gita rarely if ever focused on?

 

Bg 12.6-7 - But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Påthä-for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death.

 

Bg 12.8 - Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt.

 

Bg 12.9 - My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me.

 

Bg 12.10 - If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage.

 

Bg 12.11 - If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated.

 

Bg 12.12 - If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind.

 

Everyone connects tothe Krsna consciousness movement from where they presently are in consciousness. How could it be otherwise? Many of us are more on the lower rungs of realization. We inhabite the preliminary stages of God consciousness and need to proceed from here upward.

 

By social pressure we may for some time try to establish ourselves of the higher levels of spiritual practice but we won't be able to be there factually in consciousness so our attempts are mostly pretend and bluff to try to fit within the dominant group dynamic whose other memebers are also largely pretend and bluff.

 

Since there is no real nectar on in such a false life we naturally give it up and return to a place where we thought we experienced pleasure in the past i.e. material sense gratification. The fall down.

 

This is not really a fall down IMO because we never were really up in the first place.

 

Better for us to drop the pretense and act on the level most suited to our actual development. From here it is all up in the larger view of things (this process continuing over lifetimes). Minor fluxuations in degrees of practice needn't be seen as major fall downs and traumatic events. They can be expected. When the socio/religious body one is associating with understands this dynamic then there will not be a need for labeling others as fallen with the following ostrazation (sp) and tsk tsk attitude that is so common and drives the beginner farther from the association or it causes him to learn to pretend and bluff that much better so he can regain acceptance.

 

IOW's we need to lighten up on each other and be more supportive to those who aren't able to practice the full sadhana program.

 

And again from another angle what is a fall down really?We are taught that even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous and fear situation. And that the progress we make is held in our spiritual bank accounts and is not lost. We need to define faldown more specifically IMO.

 

What it is not is just leaving a particular sanga.

 

 

Wow. That just simply nails it on the head in my opinion. The problem is the writings of Krishna Consciousness as beautiful and wonderful as they are appear to me to be full of apparent contradictions. Sometimes you will see a dogmatic unforgiving approach to falldowns and other times unending mercy. I realize you have to take the context into account and all that and as Shakti-fan says try to harmonize the contradictions but I gotta admit a lot of the contradictions confuse me sometimes but when all is said and done I view Prabhupada as very merciful and understanding person and not a dogmatic preacher ready to cast people into the lake of fire.

[Guruvani 0]

What I find a little peculiar is that Varnashrama culture was traditionally, under Vedic principles, implemented by a King or a Rajarsi.

A powerful and wealthy Rajarsi can set-up a Varnashram culture in his Kingdom.

 

I would never encourage or recommend that any Varnashram community be administered by the defunct ISKCON GBC.

 

The Vedic way of Varnashrama requires a powerful, wealthy Ksatriya to implement.

 

Unless and until some powerful, wealthy Kingly type person comes forward to establish a Varnashrama village, I don't see how is is possible.

 

I think any suggestion that a Varnashrama society be administrated by the ISKCON GBC is lunacy.

 

The future of the Krishna consciousness movement is very bleak unless and until some really viable alternative to ISKCON can be developed.

 

The GBC is holding back the movement like shackles and chains.

[AncientMariner 0]

The way I look at it is a falldown is when you do stuff that causes you to forget Krishna. I had that happen with a girlfriend once. I used to think about God all the time when I was a kid but then I met a girl in high school and all I could think about was her and then my life turned into misery because she wasn't a chaste girl. I realize in a sense God was punishing me because of the chaos that my life turned into but I also realize now that God was also trying to protect me from her because my father told me to avoid her in the first place but I had such a liberal love everyone philosophy that I didn't understand the concept of discernment. Ultimately even through all of the difficulty I realize that God was looking out for me and his punishment so to speak is actually a benediction.

[Guest guest]

 

...setting up a large scale varnashrama system is probably the most impractical undoable idea around. Why this topic is even considered and talked about today is baffeling..

 

There MUST be a separation of material power (ksahtriyas) and the spiritual power (brahmanas) in Iskcon for our society to function properly. Combining these two types of power is the root of all evil in spiritual organizations. If introduction of the varnashrama system accomplishes just that one goal it will be a great success.

[theist 1]

Lowborn,

 

"in Iskcon" perhaps but I don't think in terms of Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada's talks in Vrndavana on Varnashrama was pointed more to the general society surrounding Iskcon than in Iskcon itself. Personally I don't believe it is feasible within Iskcon even.

 

Besides these divisions are already there naturally in nature. Some devotee take naturally to academic and religious forms of service like giving lectures and pujari functions. Some others are more interested in administration and management. Others serve by maintaining the property vehicles etc. of the temple. It just takes someone with a little vision to steer devotees to the service most in keeping with their nature. Nothing formal is needed IMO. Indeed any formal desiginations will cause chaos, friction, envy, exploitive oppurtnities etc. A huge distraction.

 

I would like to see Srila Prabhupada's concept of more automous independent temples loosely bound as Iskcon tried for once. The big organization model itself is the problem.

[suchandra 1]

 

Lowborn,

 

"in Iskcon" perhaps but I don't think in terms of Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada's talks in Vrndavana on Varnashrama was pointed more to the general society surrounding Iskcon than in Iskcon itself. Personally I don't believe it is feasible within Iskcon even.

 

Besides these divisions are already there naturally in nature. Some devotee take naturally to academic and religious forms of service like giving lectures and pujari functions. Some others are more interested in administration and management. Others serve by maintaining the property vehicles etc. of the temple. It just takes someone with a little vision to steer devotees to the service most in keeping with their nature. Nothing formal is needed IMO. Indeed any formal desiginations will cause chaos, friction, envy, exploitive oppurtnities etc. A huge distraction.

 

I would like to see Srila Prabhupada's concept of more automous independent temples loosely bound as Iskcon tried for once. The big organization model itself is the problem.

These are good points, although we tend to immediately reject when hearing certain terms that are afflicted with previous negative experiences, like ISKCON is a place of brahmanas and varnashram is something what should happen outside of ISKCON.

Ravindra Svarupa says, where're the brahmins within ISKCON, there're none, indicating that ISKCON considers itself as brahminical but is in fact something else. Since varnashram is a network of cooperation, we have to find out that this planet is presently run by a most efficient economic network. Of course not by Vaishnavas but by people who show us that it is possible to set up a real successful global network: 100th Anniversary of the First Zionist Congress (Zionism=global economic networking) http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern+History/Centenary+of+Zionism/Centenary+of+Zionism.htm

[Guest guest]

 

"in Iskcon" perhaps but I don't think in terms of Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada's talks in Vrndavana on Varnashrama was pointed more to the general society surrounding Iskcon than in Iskcon itself. Personally I don't believe it is feasible within Iskcon even.

 

Besides these divisions are already there naturally in nature. Some devotee take naturally to academic and religious forms of service like giving lectures and pujari functions. Some others are more interested in administration and management.

 

Srila Prabhupada had big plans. Too bad we cant even help ourselves, let alone helping the world live better.

 

As to natural divisions already there. What on earth is natural about sannyasis living and acting like kings? It is a total perversion of the varnashram system.

[theist 1]

 

Srila Prabhupada had big plans. Too bad we cant even help ourselves, let alone helping the world live better.

 

As to natural divisions already there. What on earth is natural about sannyasis living and acting like kings? It is a total perversion of the varnashram system.

 

As I see it some plans are more essential than others. I favor a super simplified approach to God for myself so I tend to think that would be the best approach for everyone. This is my colored vision I admit.

 

If so many big plans are not going to be fulfilled then we must fullfill the simplest most essential part of the program. That is kirtan; hearing and chanting. I would rather see Bhajan Halls spring up rather than formal temples with formal Deity worship etc. Just meeting places for big kirtans bhajans, lectures and prasada distribution (and comsumption ). A large picture of Pacha Tattva with a small altar for offerings. Simple. Easy to maintain with the focus clearly on hearing and chanting.

 

These sannyasis that you rightly complain of are the very same personalities that would be instrumental in establishing the offical varnas for the rest of the organizations. Does that not spell increased corruption and chaos?

 

In this age we need only look to increased hearing and chanting for a solution to our problems not varnashram which will just complicate matters.

[theist 1]

 

These are good points, although we tend to immediately reject when hearing certain terms that are afflicted with previous negative experiences, like ISKCON is a place of brahmanas and varnashram is something what should happen outside of ISKCON.

Ravindra Svarupa says, where're the brahmins within ISKCON, there're none, indicating that ISKCON considers itself as brahminical but is in fact something else. Since varnashram is a network of cooperation, we have to find out that this planet is presently run by a most efficient economic network. Of course not by Vaishnavas but by people who show us that it is possible to set up a real successful global network: 100th Anniversary of the First Zionist Congress (Zionism=global economic networking) http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern+History/Centenary+of+Zionism/Centenary+of+Zionism.htm

 

 

How about if iskcon and all other sangas were just seen as having devotees living in them and teaching karma/bhakti yoga to the public as prescribed in the verses I quoted above from the 12th chapter of Bg?