cbrahma Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Ayodhya: Jesus does not love me, because I am a pagan. I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament. I do not believe that Jesus is my savior. I do not believe Jesus to be the best person on the planet Earth (Gandhi definitely seems better) I do not believe that Jesus died for my sins. Obviously. I bow to idols. I've broken the First Commandment a thousand times, thus as God, he would feel the need to punish me as Moses did when they created a statue of a cow (which by the way, I consider sacred). That is your option. I choose not to. It is inconsistent with my faith. Your hatred for ISKON blinds you cbrahma. My 'hatred' for ISKCON is based on knowledge and experience, not blindness. I more moved, however, by my love of Jesus on which you are not an authority. Simply because it states in the Bible that Jesus rose the dead does not mean he actually did it or actually even lived. You are discrediting an entire religion because of one book - and that is the mark of a fundamentalist (which is a bad thing, by the way). Actually the Bible isn't just one book. It is a compilation of many many texts over several centuries. Bhagavad Gita is also one book. Likewise, just because the SB says that MahaVisnu laid down in the ocean breathed out universes doesn't mean he did. If you believe it you are a fundamentalist, of course. Can it also be said that simply because Frodo took the ring to Mt.Doom that it is also true? You're acting on blind faith, not reason. This gets you nowhere, however comforting it may be to derail another's religion. No blinder than you for accepting that a statue is God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I was responding to the accusation that Jesus could not be guru.Jesus is guru in role of teacher and savior. But he is not just a human being, he is also divine, in a way that is not in accord with the jiva-tattva philosophy of the vaisnavas. You are wrong here. Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught simultaneous oneness and difference between the jiva and God. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." He also said "The Father is greater than I" in a verse that follows that in the next chapter of John. That is exactly what Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach. Not all vaisnavas but GV. He does ask me to follow his commandments because He is one with the Father God. This is where it differs from the diksa concept. Diksa in the deepest sense of the word refers to being reborn of the spirit as in "You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God." You may not get along with Iskcon's ways as many of us here do not but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Likewise, just because the SB says that MahaVisnu laid down in the ocean breathed out universes doesn't mean he did. If you believe it you are a fundamentalist, of course. Touche'! I wouldn't take brother Ayodha too seriously. lack I heard from him he was claiming to accept eternal individuality of the soul while preaching Advaita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Can there be harmony between christian and hindu spirituality? What kind of person has the unique ability to teach this harmony through reasonable, sensible dialogue? The attached thesis (master of theology) is an objective analysis of a wonderful christian monk (Bede Griffiths) who said his religion was christianity and his spirituality was hindu. His contact with hinduism was with advaita, but any swanlike vaisnava may enjoy this thesis also. Very enlightening read for the inquisitive who has time...[ATTACH]1318[/ATTACH] Bede Griffiths Thesis.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 You are wrong here. Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught simultaneous oneness and difference between the jiva and God. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." He also said "The Father is greater than I" in a verse that follows that in the next chapter of John. That is exactly what Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach. Not all vaisnavas but GV. I was expecting that inconceivable rabbit out of the theological hat. acintya beda beda tattva means we are equal in quality but not quantity. If we are God in the second sense, then we should all be worshipped. Nobody should be bowing to anybody else. Diksa in the deepest sense of the word refers to being reborn of the spirit as in "You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God." You may not get along with Iskcon's ways as many of us here do not but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The sense of diksa applied to human beings I reject, is a worshipable being to which we must surrender totally and bow down. This is idolatry. Do not commit 'argumentum ad hominem' by constantly referring to my position on ISKCON. Do not obfuscate intelligent and justifiable rejection by repainting it as irrational hatred. That tactic is too easy. I can play it also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Can there be harmony between christian and hindu spirituality? No because the thinking of I am Christian or I am Hindu is a sure sign of ahankara. Vaisnava realization is the transcendental platform of harmony. This is not 'vaisnavism as a sect of Hinduism' nonsense ,it is the Vaisnavism of the realized soul in relation to Krsna which is pure bhakti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I was expecting that inconceivable rabbit out of the theological hat.acintya beda beda tattva means we are equal in quality but not quantity. If we are God in the second sense, then we should all be worshipped. Nobody should be bowing to anybody else. We are not God in the second sense of being one in quantity. That is the whole point. But we can be one in the sense of quality or else Jesus would not have said, "be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect." The sense of diksa applied to human beings I reject, is a worshipable being to which we must surrender totally and bow down.This is idolatry. I reject it as well. Diksa is not a formality that one human can perform on another like water baptism or a fire sacrifice. Jesus said you must be born of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. That spiritual rebirth comes from God in response to one's faith in His representative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 There exists no evidence that the New Testament came from the purported original apostles or anyone else that had seen the alleged Jesus. Although the oldest surviving Christian texts came from Paul, he had never seen the earthly Jesus. There occurs nothing in Paul's letters that either hints at the existence of the Gospels or even of a need for such memoirs of Jesus Christ. The oldest copy of the New Testament yet found consists of a tiny fragment from the Gospel of John. Scholars dated the little flake of papyrus from the period style of its handwriting to around the first half of the 2nd century C.E. The language of most of the new testament consists of old Greek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayodhya Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Obviously. So are you saying that Jesus doesn't love me? If he doesn't, than obviously Christianity is not universal and not the great religion you suppose it is. Touche'! I wouldn't take brother Ayodha too seriously. lack I heard from him he was claiming to accept eternal individuality of the soul while preaching Advaita. I have never claimed to the eternal individuality of the soul because I do not believe that can ever exist. If you remembered correctly, I do not consider myself to be of any sect - Bhaktin, Advaitain, etc. I am the farthest from a fundamentalist than any of you. I guarantee it. Bhagavad Gita is also one book. Only a fool would say that the Bible is not one book, because it is. I am not a neither a Gaudiya Vaishnava nor a Vaishnava in general, so my spiritual advancement does not come only from the Bhagavatam Purana or the Bhagavad Gita. Hindu texts range from the Vedas, to Upanishads, to poetry about the sublime. Also, surprising as it may seem to all of you, there is spirituality in Western literature besides religious texts! No blinder than you for accepting that a statue is God. Forget Christianity for a second and examine yourself. When did I ever state that I accepted the statue itself as God? When? The answer: never. Being as naive as you are, you are putting words in my mouth to prove the superiority of one religion over another. The statue is a representation of God, not God Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 You're barking up a very slim tree. If historical documentation were that inadequate, scholars would have refuted Christianity as pure myth a long time ago. Most Gospels were written within the lifetime of the evangelists. They compiled oral tradition. An understanding of this kind of tradition is essential in that it carries eye witness accounts through the community over time. The same can be said of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Whether the writers were the original apostles is not critical to their authenticity. Paul never saw Jesus but associated with many who had (Peter) I'm afraid you're grasping at straws here. There exists no evidence that the New Testament came from the purported original apostles or anyone else that had seen the alleged Jesus. Although the oldest surviving Christian texts came from Paul, he had never seen the earthly Jesus. There occurs nothing in Paul's letters that either hints at the existence of the Gospels or even of a need for such memoirs of Jesus Christ. The oldest copy of the New Testament yet found consists of a tiny fragment from the Gospel of John. Scholars dated the little flake of papyrus from the period style of its handwriting to around the first half of the 2nd century C.E. The language of most of the new testament consists of old Greek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 So are you saying that Jesus doesn't love me?If he doesn't, than obviously Christianity is not universal and not the great religion you suppose it is. . You said Jesus didn't love you. Not I. I said just the opposite in a prior post. Only a fool would say that the Bible is not one book, because it is. I am not a neither a Gaudiya Vaishnava nor a Vaishnava in general, so my spiritual advancement does not come only from the Bhagavatam Purana or the Bhagavad Gita. Hindu texts range from the Vedas, to Upanishads, to poetry about the sublime. Also, surprising as it may seem to all of you, there is spirituality in Western literature besides religious texts ! It was not written as a single book. It was compiled over a long period of time from very different texts and different sources. Calling it 'one book' is deliberately misleading. It's like saying the Mahabharata, or the Srimad Bhagavatam is just one book. Forget Christianity for a second and examine yourself. When did I ever state that I accepted the statue itself as God? When? The answer: never. Being as naive as you are, you are putting words in my mouth to prove the superiority of one religion over another. The statue is a representation of God, not God Himself Then you are bowing down to something which is not God. Same difference. What does that have to do with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated. I too am Christian. I too am Vaisnava. Lord Jesus tells me to love God. Lord Caitanya tells me how. You may abandon the idea of hasty initiation, and that is likely wise, but you can never forget what you know now. It is Christ's mercy that you encountered this powerful Vaisnava preaching Juggernaut. It is the Holy Spirit that moved your feet to that place, at that time. He will not abandon you now. This is the method. So much can be gained simply by chanting the names of Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda-Gauranga. And the Hare Krsna mahamantra, there is no greater pleasure to be had. You know that truth, and wherever you go, that truth will dwarf all that you see. Guru or not, you will surrender to Krsna .... that is the message that Christ was sent to teach: the Kingdom of God is at hand, seek ye first the Kingdom of God - on earth as it is in Heaven. Yoga will facilitate that. The goal is the same, one strategy just more clearly defined, documented, and accessible. As far as being lorded over by another being: when we advance in dhyana (astanga) yoga we follow and if lucky, surrender to the Holy Spirit, aka Paramatma, aka caitya-guru. In that state, from that perspective will we see (without a doubt) the guru as His representative, the one through whom He speaks. We will only listen to Him, and if a guru is not representing Him, then we will not hear. It is to Krsna we surrender, through the external guru. It must not become a personality cult. Krsna remains always at the centre - the goal and the path. <blockquote>Luke 4 42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.</blockquote> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayodhya Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 To cbrahma: I do not follow Jesus' rules, thus eventhough you say that Jesus loves me, it cannot be true. That is all I am saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 To cbrahma: I do not follow Jesus' rules, thus eventhough you say that Jesus loves me, it cannot be true. That is all I am saying. By that logic if someone does not follow God's rules it cannot be possible for God to love that person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 You may abandon the idea of hasty initiation, I abandon the idea of initiation altogether. I am initiated by baptism. I don't need to be enslaved by a human being. The Papacy tried it and failed miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Your statement is false, though it is a common misunderstanding among those who fear initiation. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati taught very clearly that the true Vaishnava devotee does not surrender directly to Krishna, but rather to the servant of the servant of Krishna. A "devotee" who says he cannot find any Vaishnava greater than himself to whom he should surrender is a very low devotee. This is why the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta even exclude Mirabai from the pantheon of advanced devotees; they recognize that her "surrender directly to Krishna" was the hallmark of a very junior devotee if not an outright pretender. Be careful in selecting those to whom you will surrender, but if you have not surrendered to real, flesh-and-blood Vaishnavas whom you consider your superiors, there's a very good chance that you have made little or no advancement in your devotion. Sridhar Maharaja gave the example of the mountain climber approaching Mount Everest. From a distance, the climber sees the peak of Everest, and considers that his goal. But as he grows nearer his goal, his view of the peak gives way to a view of the smaller mountains to which he is closer. This teaching can be abused by evil men who seek power over others. One must be careful in applying it. However, it is the true teaching of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Well you're not interpreting correctly - you're correct that we [should want to] serve the servant of the servant - that is one mood - but - don't forget God's words: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear. [bG 18.66] Then of course let's look at this - what does He say about gurus: Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. [bG 4.34] So from that quote in BG 4.34 it is clear that you're wrong in your guru worship...'render service' is not worship. To 'Inquire from him submissively' is not the same 'surrender' that you speak of - a guru is a TEACHER and that is clear from this verse - from God. Everything I know was learned from reading Prabhupada's vani and - a good book is better than a bad guru - right? ...The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great acaryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness. All transcendentalists other than devotees make no distinction between the individual soul and the Supersoul because they miscalculate the Superconsciousness and the individual consciousness to be one and the same. Such miscalculation by the nondevotees makes them unfit to receive any direction from within, and therefore they are bereft of the direct cooperation of the Lord. After many, many births, when such a nondualist comes to sense that the Lord is worshipable and that the devotee is simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, then only can he surrender unto the Lord, Vasudeva... [sB 3.5.4, purport] ...The Supreme Godhead in His Paramatma feature is present in everyone’s heart, and He is always trying to induce the individual soul to surrender unto Him and to engage in devotional service; therefore He is the original spiritual master. He manifests Himself as spiritual master both internally and externally to help the conditioned soul both ways... [sB 4.21.36, purport] Without a doubt - for one who wants a vedic education in the science of bhakti it is the the EXTENSIVE writings lectures and conversations - all of which are on a searchable database - of Srila Prabupada which remain the best and most accessible source of instruction: ...No one should try to squeeze out his own meaning by imperfect mundane knowledge. The guru, or the bona fide spiritual master, is competent to teach the disciple in the right path with reference to the context of all authentic Vedic literature. He does not attempt to juggle words to bewilder the student. The bona fide spiritual master, by his personal activities, teaches the disciple the principles of devotional service. Without personal service, one would go on speculating like the impersonalists and dry speculators life after life and would be unable to reach the final conclusion. By following the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master in conjunction with the principles of revealed scriptures, the student will rise to the plane of complete knowledge, which will be exhibited by development of detachment from the world of sense gratification... [sB 2.9.37, purport] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sruti Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Bhaktivinode Thakura On Jesus Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles. Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers. Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa. Srila Prabhupada, on Dec 31 1966 in New York said: "In the beginning, Lord Caitanya says that by the symptoms, we can understand that He is saktyavesa. By the symptoms and activities and influence. So what is that symptom? Symptom is that eternal and temporary. So avatar, incarnation comes to glorify the eternal existence of the Supreme Lord. So any avatara, any incarnation, He comes to glorify that "There is spiritual kingdom. There is God, and I have come to reclaim you to back to Godhead, back to home." This is the symptom. So therefore, by that symptom, we accept Lord Jesus Christ as saktyavesa avatara.....© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Well you're not interpreting correctly - you're correct that we [should want to] serve the servant of the servant - that is one mood - but - don't forget God's words: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear. [bG 18.66] Here's a part of a piece by Narasingha Maharaja: "Gour Mohan De, a pure devotee of Krsna, desired the very best for his son. "Please bless him," he used to say, whenever holy men used to visit his home. "Please bless my son that he will become a great devotee of Srimati Radharani." Srila Prabhupada said, "My father also trained me and instructed me to his best capacity, and he prayed for me that Radharani may be pleased upon me, and I think by my father's blessings and grace, I may have come to this position, and I have gotten into relationship with His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja also by his mercy. So it is Krsna's grace that I got a good father and also a good spiritual master." What else did Gour Mohan desire for his son? "He should learn to play mrdanga very nicely and he should engage in the worship of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda."" This is also confirmed in Bhaktivedanta purport in S.B. that I can't quote at this time. (can somebody find it?) Where does this fit it your line of reasoning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I too am Christian. I too am Vaisnava. Lord Jesus tells me to love God. Lord Caitanya tells me how. You may abandon the idea of hasty initiation, and that is likely wise, but you can never forget what you know now. It is Christ's mercy that you encountered this powerful Vaisnava preaching Juggernaut. It is the Holy Spirit that moved your feet to that place, at that time. He will not abandon you now. This is the method. So much can be gained simply by chanting the names of Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda-Gauranga. And the Hare Krsna mahamantra, there is no greater pleasure to be had. You know that truth, and wherever you go, that truth will dwarf all that you see. Guru or not, you will surrender to Krsna .... that is the message that Christ was sent to teach: the Kingdom of God is at hand, seek ye first the Kingdom of God - on earth as it is in Heaven. Yoga will facilitate that. The goal is the same, one strategy just more clearly defined, documented, and accessible. As far as being lorded over by another being: when we advance in dhyana (astanga) yoga we follow and if lucky, surrender to the Holy Spirit, aka Paramatma, aka caitya-guru. In that state, from that perspective will we see (without a doubt) the guru as His representative, the one through whom He speaks. We will only listen to Him, and if a guru is not representing Him, then we will not hear. It is to Krsna we surrender, through the external guru. It must not become a personality cult. Krsna remains always at the centre - the goal and the path. Luke 4 42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee. I really like that. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 so, what's it like being controlled by love and affection? is it nice? I believe that it is called Krsna consciousness, or bhakti. The name of His Divine Grace's summary study of Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti rasamrta sindhu is called the Nectar of Devotion. Real devotional sevice is always joyfully performed. <CENTER>Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge</CENTER> TEXT 2 raja-vidya raja-guhyam pavitram idam uttamam pratyaksavagamam dharmyam su-sukham kartum avyayam SYNONYMS raja-vidya--the king of education; raja-guhyam--the king of confidential knowledge; pavitram--the purest; idam--this; uttamam--transcendental; pratyaksa--directly experienced; avagamam--understood; dharmyam--the principle of religion; su-sukham--very happy; kartum--to execute; avyayam--everlasting. TRANSLATION This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed. PURPORT This chapter of Bhagavad-gita is called the king of education because it is the essence of all doctrines and philosophies explained before. There are seven principal philosophers in India: Gautama, Kanada, Kapila, Yajnavalkya, Sandilya, Vaisvanara, and, finally, Vyasadeva, the author of the Vedanta-sutra. So there is no dearth of knowledge in the field of philosophy or transcendental knowledge. Now the Lord says that this Ninth Chapter is the king of all such knowledge, the essence of all knowledge that can be derived from the study of the Vedas and different kinds of philosophy. It is the most confidential because confidential or transcendental knowledge involves understanding the difference between the soul and the body. And the king of all confidential knowledge culminates in devotional service. Generally, people are not educated in this confidential knowledge; they are educated in external knowledge. As far as ordinary education is concerned, people are involved with so many departments: politics, sociology, physics, chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, engineering, etc. There are so many departments of knowledge all over the world and many huge universities, but there is, unfortunately, no university or educational institution where the science of the spirit soul is instructed. Yet the soul is the most important part of this body; without the presence of the soul, the body has no value. Still people are placing great stress on the bodily necessities of life, not caring for the vital soul. The Bhagavad-gita, especially from the Second Chapter on, stresses the importance of the soul. In the very beginning, the Lord says that this body is perishable and that the soul is not perishable. That is a confidential part of knowledge: simply knowing that the spirit soul is different from this body and that its nature is immutable, indestructible and eternal. But that gives no positive information about the soul. Sometimes people are under the impression that the soul is different from the body and that when the body is finished, or one is liberated from the body, the soul remains in a void and becomes impersonal. But actually that is not the fact. How can the soul, which is so active within this body, be inactive after being liberated from the body? It is always active. If it is eternal, then it is eternally active, and its activities in the spiritual kingdom are the most confidential part of spiritual knowledge. These activities of the spirit soul are therefore indicated here as constituting the king of all knowledge, the most confidential part of all knowledge. This knowledge is the purest form of all activities, as is explained in Vedic literature. In the Padma Purana, man's sinful activities have been analyzed and are shown to be the results of sin after sin. Those who are engaged in fruitive activities are entangled in different stages and forms of sinful reactions. For instance, when the seed of a particular tree is sown, the tree does not appear immediately to grow; it takes some time. It is first a small, sprouting plant, then it assumes the form of a tree, then it flowers, bears fruit, and, when it is complete, the flowers and fruits are enjoyed by persons who have sown the seed of the tree. Similarly, a man performs a sinful act, and like a seed it takes time to fructify. There are different stages. The sinful action may have already stopped within the individual, but the results or the fruit of that sinful action are still enjoyed. There are sins which are still in the form of a seed, and there are others which are already fructified and are giving us fruit, which we are enjoying as distress and pain, as explained in the twentieth verse of the Seventh Chapter. A person who has completely ended the reactions of all sinful activities and who is fully engaged in pious activities, being freed from the duality of this material world, becomes engaged in devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. In other words, those who are actually engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord are already freed from all reactions. For those who are engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all sinful reactions, whether fructified, in the stock, or in the form of a seed, gradually vanish. Therefore the purifying potency of devotional service is very strong, and it is called pavitram uttamam, the purest. Uttamam means transcendental. Tamas means this material world or darkness, and uttamam means that which is transcendental to material activities. Devotional activities are never to be considered material, although sometimes it appears that devotees are engaged just like ordinary men. One who can see and is familiar with devotional service, however, will know that they are not material activities. They are all spiritual and devotional, uncontaminated by the material modes of nature. It is said that the execution of devotional service is so perfect that one can perceive the results directly. This direct result is actually perceived, and we have practical experience that any person who is chanting the holy names of Krsna (Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare) in course of time feels some transcendental pleasure and very quickly becomes purified of all material contamination. This is actually seen. Furthermore, if one engages not only in hearing but in trying to broadcast the message of devotional activities as well, or if he engages himself in helping the missionary activities of Krsna consciousness, he gradually feels spiritual progress. This advancement in spiritual life does not depend on any kind of previous education or qualification. The method itself is so pure that by simply engaging in it one becomes pure. In the Vedanta-sutra this is also described in the following words: prakasas ca karmany abhyasat. "Devotional service is so potent that simply by engaging in the activities of devotional service, one becomes enlightened without a doubt." Narada, who happened to be the son of a maidservant, had no education, nor was he born into a high family. But when his mother was engaged in serving great devotees, Narada also became engaged, and sometimes, in the absence of his mother, he would serve the great devotees himself. Narada personally says, "Once only, by their permission, I took the remnants of their food, and by so doing all my sins were at once eradicated. Thus being engaged, I became purified in heart, and at that time the very nature of the transcendentalist became attractive to me."(Bhag 1.5.25) Narada tells his disciple Vyasadeva that in a previous life he was engaged as a boy servant of purified devotees during four months of their stay and that he was intimately associating with them. Sometimes those sages left remnants of food on their dishes, and the boy, who would wash their dishes, wanted to taste the remnants. So he asked the great devotees whether he could eat them, and they gave their permission. Narada then ate those remnants and consequently became freed from all sinful reactions. As he went on eating, he gradually became as purehearted as the sages, and he gradually developed the same taste. The great devotees relished the taste of unceasing devotional service of the Lord, hearing, chanting, etc., and by developing the same taste, Narada wanted also to hear and chant the glories of the Lord. Thus by associating with the sages, he developed a great desire for devotional service. Therefore he quotes from the Vedanta-sutra (prakasas ca karmany abhyasat): if one is engaged simply in the acts of devotional service, everything is revealed to him automatically, and he can understand. This is called prakasah, directly perceived. Narada was actually a son of a maidservant. He had no opportunity to go to school. He was simply assisting his mother, and fortunately his mother rendered some service to the devotees. The child Narada also got the opportunity and simply by association achieved the highest goal of all religions, devotional service. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said that religious people generally do not know that the highest perfection of religion is the attainment of the stage of devotional service. Generally Vedic knowledge is required for understanding of the path of self-realization. But here, although he was not educated in the Vedic principle, Narada acquired the highest results of Vedic study. This process is so potent that even without performing the religious process regularly, one can be raised to the highest perfection. How is this possible? This is also confirmed in Vedic literature: acaryavan puruso veda. One who is in association with great acaryas, even if he is not educated or has not studied the Vedas, can become familiar with all the knowledge necessary for realization. The process of devotional service is a very happy one. Why? Devotional service consists of sravanam kirtanam visnoh, so one can simply hear the chanting of the glories of the Lord or can attend philosophical lectures on transcendental knowledge given by authorized acaryas. Simply by sitting, one can learn; then one can eat the remnants of the food offered to God, nice palatable dishes. In every state devotional service is joyful. One can execute devotional service even in the most poverty-stricken condition. The Lord says, patram puspam phalam: He is ready to accept from the devotee any kind of offering, never mind what. Even a leaf, a flower, a bit of fruit, or a little water, which are all available in every part of the world, can be offered by any person, regardless of social position, and will be accepted if offered with love. There are many instances in history. Simply by tasting the tulasi leaves offered to the lotus feet of the Lord, great sages like Sanat-kumara became great devotees. Therefore the devotional process is very nice, and it can be executed in a happy mood. God accepts only the love with which things are offered to Him. It is said here that this devotional service is eternally existing. It is not as the Mayavadi philosophers claim. They sometimes take to so-called devotional service, and as long as they are not liberated they continue their devotional service, but at the end, when they become liberated, they "become one with God." Such temporary time-serving devotional service is not accepted as pure devotional service. Actual devotional service continues even after liberation. When the devotee goes to the spiritual planet in the kingdom of God, he is also engaged there in serving the Supreme Lord. He does not try to become one with the Supreme Lord. As it will be seen, actual devotional service begins after liberation. So in Bhagavad-gita it is said, brahma-bhuta. After being liberated, or being situated in the Brahman position, one's devotional service begins. By executing devotional service, one can understand the Supreme Lord. No one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by executing karma-yoga, jnana, or astanga-yoga or any other yoga independently. Without coming to the stage of devotional service, one cannot understand what is the Personality of Godhead. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is also confirmed that when one becomes purified by executing the process of devotional service, especially by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam or Bhagavad-gita from realized souls, then he can understand the science of Krsna, or the science of God. Evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti yogatah. When one's heart is cleared of all nonsense, then one can understand what God is. Thus the process of devotional service, of Krsna consciousness, is the king of all education and the king of all confidential knowledge. It is the purest form of religion, and it can be executed joyfully without difficulty. Therefore one should adopt it. Bg. As It is 9.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I abandon the idea of initiation altogether. I am initiated by baptism. I don't need to be enslaved by a human being. The Papacy tried it and failed miserably. Gour Hari I know someone who may want to buy your house In Govardhana. I am still in India. I will return to braja from delhi on the 28th. I will be in Govardhana on purnima January 3rd. Can you arrange for me to look at it and let me know how much you want for it? My email is purudas@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Here is the verse and purport I mentioned earlier regarding blind following. <CENTER>Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute</CENTER> TEXT 4-5 buddhir jnanam asammohah ksama satyam damah samah sukham duhkham bhavo 'bhavo bhayam cabhayam eva ca ahimsa samata tustis tapo danam yaso 'yasah bhavanti bhava bhutanam matta eva prthag-vidhah SYNONYMS buddhih--intelligence; jnanam--knowledge; asammohah--freedom from doubt; ksama--forgiveness; satyam--truthfulness; damah--control of the senses; samah--control of the mind; sukham--happiness; duhkham--distress; bhavah--birth; abhavah--death; bhayam--fear; ca--and; abhayam--without fear; eva--also; ca--and; ahimsa--nonviolence; samata--equilibrium; tustih--satisfaction; tapah--penance; danam--charity; yasah--fame; ayasah--infamy; bhavanti--become; bhavah--natures; bhutanam--of living entities; mattah--from Me; eva--certainly; prthak-vidhah--differently arranged. TRANSLATION Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, self-control and calmness, pleasure and pain, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy are created by Me alone. PURPORT The different qualities of living entities, be they good or bad, are all created by Krsna, and they are described here. Intelligence refers to the power of analyzing things in proper perspective, and knowledge refers to understanding what is spirit and what is matter. Ordinary knowledge obtained by a university education pertains only to matter, and it is not accepted here as knowledge. Knowledge means knowing the distinction between spirit and matter. In modern education there is no knowledge about the spirit; they are simply taking care of the material elements and bodily needs. Therefore academic knowledge is not complete. Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. Self-control means that the senses should not be used for unnecessary personal enjoyment. There is no prohibition against meeting the proper needs of the senses, but unnecessary sense enjoyment is detrimental for spiritual advancement. Therefore the senses should be restrained from unnecessary use. Similarly, the mind should not indulge in unnecessary thoughts; that is called samah, or calmness. Nor should one spend one's time pondering over earning money. That is a misuse of the thinking power. The mind should be used to understand the prime necessity of human beings, and that should be presented authoritatively. The power of thought should be developed in association with persons who are authorities in the scriptures, saintly persons and spiritual masters and those whose thinking is highly developed. Sukham, pleasure or happiness, should always be in that which is favorable for the cultivation of the spiritual knowledge of Krsna consciousness. And similarly, that which is painful or which causes distress is that which is unfavorable for the cultivation of Krsna consciousness. Anything favorable for the development of Krsna consciousness should be accepted, and anything unfavorable should be rejected. Bhava, birth, should be understood to refer to the body. As far as the soul is concerned, there is neither birth nor death; that we have discussed in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Birth and death apply to one's embodiment in the material world. Fear is due to worrying about the future. A person in Krsna consciousness has no fear because by his activities he is sure to go back to the spiritual sky, back home, back to Godhead. Therefore his future is very bright. Others, however, do not know what their future holds; they have no knowledge of what the next life holds. So they are therefore in constant anxiety. If we want to get free from anxiety, then the best course is to understand Krsna and be situated always in Krsna consciousness. In that way we will be free from all fear. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that fear is caused by our absorption in the illusory energy, but those who are free from the illusory energy, those who are confident that they are not the material body, that they are spiritual parts of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are therefore engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Godhead, have nothing to fear. Their future is very bright. This fear is a condition of persons who are not in Krsna consciousness. Bhayam, fearlessness, is only possible for one in Krsna consciousness. Ahimsa, nonviolence, means that one should not do anything which will put others into misery or confusion. Material activities that are promised by so many politicians, sociologists, philanthropists, etc., do not produce very good results because the politicians and philanthropists have no transcendental vision; they do not know what is actually beneficial for human society. Ahimsa means that people should be trained in such a way that the full utilization of the human body can be achieved. The human body is meant for spiritual realization, so any movement or any commissions which do not further that end commit violence on the human body. That which furthers the future spiritual happiness of the people in general is called nonviolence. Samata, equanimity, refers to freedom from attachment and aversion. To be very much attached or to be very much detached is not the best. This material world should be accepted without attachment or aversion. Similarly, that which is favorable for prosecuting Krsna consciousness should be accepted; that which is unfavorable should be rejected. That is called samata, equanimity. A person in Krsna consciousness has nothing to reject and nothing to accept unless it is useful in the prosecution of Krsna consciousness. Tusti, satisfaction, means that one should not be eager to gather more and more material goods by unnecessary activity. One should be satisfied with whatever is obtained by the grace of the Supreme Lord; that is called satisfaction. Tapas means austerity or penance. There are many rules and definitions in the Vedas which apply here, like rising early in the morning and taking a bath. Sometimes it is very troublesome to rise early in the morning, but whatever voluntary trouble one may suffer in this way is called penance. Similarly, there are prescriptions for fasting on certain days of the month. One may not be inclined to practice such fasting, but because of his determination to make advancement in the science of Krsna consciousness, he should accept such bodily troubles which are recommended. However, one should not fast unnecessarily or against Vedic injunctions. One should not fast for some political purpose; that is described in Bhagavad-gita as fasting in ignorance, and anything done in ignorance or passion does not lead to spiritual advancement. Everything done in the mode of goodness does advance one, however, and fasting done in terms of the Vedic injunctions enriches one in spiritual knowledge. As far as charity is concerned, one should give fifty percent of his earnings to some good cause. And what is a good cause? It is that which is conducted in terms of Krsna consciousness. That is not only a good cause, but it is the best cause. Because Krsna is good, His cause is also good. Thus charity should be given to a person who is engaged in Krsna consciousness. According to Vedic literature, it is enjoined that charity should be given to the brahmanas. This practice is still followed, although not very nicely in terms of the Vedic injunction. But still the injunction is that charity should be given to the brahmanas. Why? Because they are engaged in higher cultivation of spiritual knowledge. A brahmana is supposed to devote his whole life to understanding Brahman. A brahma-jana is one who knows Brahman; he is called a brahmana. Thus charity is offered to the brahmanas because since they are always engaged in higher spiritual service, they have no time to earn their livelihood. In the Vedic literature, charity is also to be awarded to the renouncer of life, the sannyasi. The sannyasis beg from door to door, not for money but for missionary purposes. The system is that they go from door to door to awaken the householders from the slumber of ignorance. Because the householders are engaged in family affairs and have forgotten their actual purpose in life--awakening their Krsna consciousness--it is the business of the sannyasis to go as beggars to the householders and encourage them to be Krsna conscious. As it is said in the Vedas, one should awake and achieve what is due him in this human form of life. This knowledge and method is distributed by the sannyasis; hence charity is to be given to the renouncer of life, to the brahmanas, and similar good causes, not to any whimsical cause. Yasah, fame, should be according to Lord Caitanya, who said that a man is famous when he is known as a great devotee. That is real fame. If one has become a great man in Krsna consciousness and it is known, then he is truly famous. One who does not have such fame is infamous. All these qualities are manifest throughout the universe in human society and in the society of the demigods. There are many forms of humanity on other planets, and these qualities are there. Now, for one who wants to advance in Krsna consciousness, Krsna creates all these qualities, but the person develops them himself from within. One who engages in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord develops all the good qualities, as arranged by the Supreme Lord. Of whatever we find, good or bad, the origin is Krsna. Nothing can manifest in this material world which is not in Krsna. That is knowledge; although we know that things are differently situated, we should realize that everything flows from Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Srila Sridhara Maharaja in the book known as Sermons (1) describes the slave mentality that is required to gain access to our highest fortune in the cit Kingdom of God. We all will likely view this as almost axiomatic. <BLOCKQUOTE>am evaisa vrnute tena labhyah: but there is a conscious land, and whoever is accepted by that land can enter it. Otherwise, by dint of one's own power, no one can enter that land. This point has been missed by the mayavadis. That is an independent element; the soil is independent. Matter is not independent, and the soul is 'independent' here in the material world. But the conscious world is made of supersoul - the very soil is independent. If the min-utely independent soul accepts that land, he can enter that land, otherwise not. There is such a land. So the question of becoming a slave must arise. The highest qualification within us is our acceptance of the slave mentality for the Absolute. This is the only way to be earnest for the association of the highest existence. We must be ready to accept slavery to its perfection, and then we will be allowed to enter into that domain. Otherwise, we have no hope. It is not very easy to embrace slave mentality - eternal slavery. Slavery is also our future prospect. Are you ready to think like this? You have to be so broadminded and hopeful that such a higher entity exists. Your hope and faith will have to be of such a magnanimous type to enter that land. You will sign the bond, the contract: "I am going to accept eternal slavery! I want to enter that land!" You have to search your fortune, and sign the bond of slavery: the association there is so high that even as a slave I want that association. I earnestly hanker for that sweet land where my meager personality can become a slave. Such intense faith is necessary, where all other experience, even knowledge, fails. Only faith can carry us there. Sraddha - faith in devotion to Krsna is the unit with which the whole structure has been constructed there. All is faith. The land of faith. There, faith holds autonomy. Everything moves through faith - no calculation, no robbing, no stealing, no cheating. This is automatic there in the land of faith. None of this nasty life. "I shall always be alert that I may not be cheated in the land of so many cheats; Here, I always have to be alert - I will be cheated, I will be cheated." That is a nasty life. So we must enter into a life where there is automatically no cheating, no calculation, and no reasoning. All are good - all are busy to give you something. Here, we are suffering from the opposite. But there, everyone is promoting you in your progress, pushing you towards your highest fortune. Such a land is there. To become a slave there is really to become a master. Whoever tends most toward slavery will be held by all as the head!</BLOCKQUOTE> The difficulty for many of us, however, is to accept another potentially fallible source as master. Unless we're seeking a free lunch, we need only do that when it is absolutely palatable, and only then. The genuine guru would not want it otherwise. Whether Jesus or Prabhupada, we seem to accept completely the instruction of some bona fide master - otherwise we'd have faded away long ago. Please do not abandon the mercy of Lord Caitanya, cbrahma, simply because you have found no person on the planet now in whom you can invest such complete faith. That is like throwing out the baby with the bath water - it is just not rational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 What kind of response?????? Gour Hari I know someone who may want to buy your house In Govardhana. I am still in India. I will return to braja from delhi on the 28th. I will be in Govardhana on purnima January 3rd. Can you arrange for me to look at it and let me know how much you want for it?My email is purudas@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I have a Bhagavad Gita. There is no need to copy-paste entire purports. Besides I've read it in its entirety. I still refuse to subjugate my soul and mind entirely to another human being. It is incompatible with Judao-Christian teaching and more importantly my own conscience , the still small voice within. It is easily the origin of all the corruption I have known in Eastern religions, especially the ones transplanted here. Luckily Eastern gurus are no longer fashionable like they were in the sixties and seventies. By now most of them have been exposed as charlatans. In the case of Bhaktivedant swami, his organization has been exposed time and time again as corrupt. Do not proselityze me with this kind of Hinduism. Except possibly with Buddhism I think we've come to a period of Western history when Orientalism is an idea whose time has come and gone. Here is the verse and purport I mentioned earlier regarding blind following. <CENTER> </CENTER> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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