Is disciplic succession a scriptural injunction?

[Guruvani 0]

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

There is a proverb. "Which is more useful: the nose or the breath?"

The intelligent will say that the breath is more essential than the nose.

To sustain the life, the nose may be cut off, but if the breath continues,

one may live. We consider the breath to have more importance than

the nose. The physical form will misguide people to go away from the

truth and follow a different direction.

We don't consider the body connection important in the acaryaship. It

is a spiritual current, and not a body current. The disciple of a true

devotee may even be a nondevotee. We admit that, because we see it,

and the Lord Himself says in Bhagavad-gita, sa kaleneha mahata,

yogo nastah parantapa: "The current is damaged by the influence of

this material world." In the line, some are affected, go astray, and may

even become nondevotees. So, the continuation through the physical

succession is not a safe criterion to be accepted. We must trace only

the current of spiritual knowledge.

[Guest guest]

There are some that want to know about Krsna only from the sastra, scripture. In the almanac it is written that this year so much rain is expected, so much rain will come. But if we press the almanac, will a drop of water ooze out of it? The sastra is like that, something like that. The sastra says do this, do that, but the scripture cannot give us Krsna. First we get the direction, then we practice; we are to do it. We are helpless when searching with this method or that method.

[AncientMariner 0]

Originally Posted by Narottama dasa Thakura

“Unable to obtain their association, I must simply weep.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter." (Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

"I also do not feel seperation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's word is more important that to serve him physically." (Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70)

 

"We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same." (Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

[Guest guest]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

the scripture cannot give us Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Ancient Mariner,

 

do you really believe there is no difference in associating with Srila PRabhupada in person and through his books.

[AncientMariner 0]

By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

 

PURPORT

Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhāgavatas. There are two types of Bhāgavatas, namely the book Bhāgavata and the devotee Bhāgavata. Both the Bhāgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhāgavata is as good as the book Bhāgavata because the devotee Bhāgavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhāgavata and the book Bhāgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhāgavatas. Bhāgavata book and person are identical.

 

The devotee Bhāgavata is a direct representative of Bhagavān, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhāgavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhāgavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhāgavata or the book Bhāgavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Śrīla Nāradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant’s son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Śrīla Nāradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhāgavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhāgavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhāgavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhāgavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhāgavata, and the combination of these two Bhāgavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

the scripture cannot give us Krsna.

No, it can't but it can give you directions how to get Krishna.

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

First we get the direction, then we practice; we are to do it.

So, we get direction from shastra, then we follow that, then we get Krishna.

 

Sridhar Maharaja is not supporting physical succession in that quote.

 

He is explaining that one must follow the directions of the shastra, because without following then one cannot get the benefit.

 

He is Not promoting physical succession in that statement, but you are trying to make it that he is.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

Ancient Mariner,

 

do you really believe there is no difference in associating with Srila PRabhupada in person and through his books.

 

 

Prabhupada has made it very clear that the devotee bhagavata and the book bhagavata are identical.

[Guest guest]

"do you really believe there is no difference in associating with Srila PRabhupada in person and through his books."

 

-------

 

In his books he has put everything which one can associate with at any time.

If you had his personal association for a few minutes what do you thing would happen, he'd touch you and you'd see some bright light?

[Guest guest]

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura

 

se-saba sangira sange ye koilo bilasa

se-sanga na paña kande narottama dasa

They have all gone off together in their own lila (Pastimes). Narottama dasa

Thakura says: “Unable to obtain their association, I must simply weep.”

[cbrahma 0]

Srila Prabhupada writes in the Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila 25:9 Purport:

 

"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: "Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, no human being can become the spiritual master of the whole world. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna's effulgence throughout the world. Such an Acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna-that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna's potency. Such a personality is “krsna lingita-vigraha”- that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is the guru or spiritual master for the entire world, a devotee on the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura."

 

 

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

"do you really believe there is no difference in associating with Srila PRabhupada in person and through his books."

 

Certainly not.

The books are a lot more intimate and revealing than some physical proximity to the acharya.

The books are actually more intimate and thorough than physical contact.

 

What can you get from a guru in a few minutes personal contact?

Not that much.

In the books you get the full course of philosophy and siddhanta.

 

The idea that we have to get physical association so we can ask stupid questions to take up the valuable time of the acharya is common neophyte ignorance.

 

the real important questions have already been addressed and answered in the shastra.

 

We don't need to bother the acharya with our stupid questions.

 

Take the course, study the books and then all questions will be answered.

[Guest guest]

 

 

For a time Iskcon was even telling those who were intiated by such people to be reintiated by other Iskcon gurus. After some needed to be reintiated two or three times, this proposal was dropped.

 

Two or three? I know of one case where a devotee had FOUR different "spiritual masters" fall down and/or bloop on him. I wonder, what's the record? Five? Six?

[AncientMariner 0]

"The idea that we have to get physical association so we can ask stupid questions to take up the valuable time of the acharya is common neophyte ignorance."

 

 

I gotta admit that was funny and true.

[Guest guest]

 

Certainly not.

The books are a lot more intimate and revealing than some physical proximity to the acharya.

The books are actually more intimate and thorough than physical contact.

 

What can you get from a guru in a few minutes personal contact?

Not that much.

In the books you get the full course of philosophy and siddhanta.

 

The idea that we have to get physical association so we can ask stupid questions to take up the valuable time of the acharya is common neophyte ignorance.

 

the real important questions have already been addressed and answered in the shastra.

 

We don't need to bother the acharya with our stupid questions.

 

Take the course, study the books and then all questions will be answered.

 

 

There's not much point in continuing this conversation, is there?

[theist 1]

Sastra does not automatically reveal Krsna or else how could there be mayavadis who read Krsna lila and then think they are Krsna.

 

However Caitya-guru within can use those scriptures to bring one into the same understanding as the author. Caitya guru is the prime guru and he reveals Himself through his devotee in body His devotees in vapu through more advanced souls on the path and even through so-called mundane things like science or the wind.

 

Sorry to see everyone so anxious to wrap chains around the unlimited.

 

The very same people that had the most intimate contact with Prabhupada while he was in body are the very same people that immediately jumped onto there own big chairs and tries to play pure devotee. Apparently even in lieu of all that "intimate" body association they didn't hear a damn thing.

[AncientMariner 0]

"Apparently even in lieu of all that "intimate" body association they didn't hear a damn thing."

 

 

 

That's another funny but also sad but true statement.

 

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[Guest guest]

 

 

This is the typical "strawman" arguement tactic, as it is not really a choice of choosing which association is better between Prabhupada or his books. It's a choice which is better to associate with, Prabhupada's books, or Harikesha, Prabhupada's books,or Bhagavan, Prabhupada's books or......... you fill in the name from the past or present. And if you took intiation from someone today, do you really think you would get to spend much time around them? Most likely the initiating gurus in Iskcon have a few people around them that try to control things and keep others away, just as it was with Prabhupada and the few around him who tried to control and isolate him. I would think if one took intiation from Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj or Govinda Maharaj, it would be the same. So the real association you get is not with these advanced souls (if they are, i would assume Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj and Govinda Maharaj are) but with others just like yourself. So i think it is best to be patient, you cant go wrong with the books.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

"The idea that we have to get physical association so we can ask stupid questions to take up the valuable time of the acharya is common neophyte ignorance."

I gotta admit that was funny and true.

One time a western devotee was asking Srila Sridhar Maharaja the same questions over and over again. Srila Sridhar Maharaja told him that since he was somewhat senior, he should know the answer. Guru Maharaja explained that "this is a system, you must know the system". A moment later when the same devotee asked another foolish question Maharaja replied, "I am not a question and answer machine!" You have to balance this episode with the fact that the great book by Srila Sridhar Maharaja, "Sri Guru and His Grace" came from answers that SM gave to inquiring devotees all of whom were Prabhupada disciples. "Sri Guru and His Grace" is one of the most definitive works on guru tattva available in English and it is a must read for anyone who really wants to know the truth about guru and Krsna.

Remember from the viewpoint of Vaisnavism every thing is ultimately a person. So the Bhavavatam, the book Bhagavat is ultimately Krsna. The guru is not Krsna, although we are told "sakshadhari tvena samasta sastrair". The guru is Krsna's shakti (therefore from that angle the guru is Krsna) and who is the full embodiment of Krsna's shakti?

[Guest guest]

 

I would think if one took intiation from Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj or Govinda Maharaj, it would be the same. So the real association you get is not with these advanced souls (if they are, i would assume Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj and Govinda Maharaj are) but with others just like yourself. So i think it is best to be patient, you cant go wrong with the books.

 

My wife is going to visit Srila Govinda Maharaj, her Guru, in January. She will stay with him for two weeks. Usually she gets to spend about 3-4 hours a day sitting with him and talking with him, when she visits.

[Guest guest]

 

Remember from the viewpoint of Vaisnavism every thing is ultimately a person. So the Bhavavatam, the book Bhagavat is ultimately Krsna. The guru is not Krsna, although we are told "sakshadhari tvena samasta sastrair". The guru is Krsna's shakti (therefore from that angle the guru is Krsna) and who is the full embodiment of Krsna's shakti?

 

 

This is a very relevant point when it comes to understanding who guru represents, that is why it is so auspicious to be around such a genuine Guru. Not only their unique individual soul, but the empowerment of that serving pleasure potency is also to be traced in the person who Krsna favours.

And that can hardly be expressed in mere words. The real ones are glints of His hladini shakti.

 

 

When they come across the part in the books that states one should hear the sastra from a realized soul otherwise the potency won't be there, then don't follow that advice given just continue on with your own conclusions, ignore what the books are saying, because after all a book isn't going to correct our misconception.

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" Paul Simon.

 

You know this reminds me of an incident I once saw where a small 3 year old child was so used to worshipping a picture in their home that when they first met the spiritual master in real life, still they offered a flower to his picture not realising he was present in the flesh. That spiritual master then went and took that flower and gave it back to the child face to face, to their wide eyed amazement and the audiences amusement.

I can happily say I've had the good fortune to meet many wonderful elevated Vaisnavas personally both older and contempory, and as relishable as their writings and realizations may be, it doesn't compare to a moments personal association.

Mahaprabhu is so merciful that He continues to send wave after wave of His faithful friends and followers, the greatest sadness is when we miss the company of one of those emmisaries, after they spend so much time here and we only discover their glories when they have moved on.

 

Maybe we could put a book on the altar and it could give a morning class if no one is to be trusted or qualified, a sort of direct transmission process. It can turn it's own pages and send whispers from eternity to each and every heart, making sure everyone receives it perfectly the same. Distributing sweetmeats to the faithful. Then it can go out and mysticly distribute itself to the fallen souls on the street, and if He encounters anyone drowning on His path He can extend His pages to pull them out of that dark ocean of ignorance.

 

Mind you I love Srila Prabhupads books I would travel a thousand klms just to be there at the release of a new one, spending everything I had before buying food even. Relishing all the new artworks in them, marvelling at the miracle of the volumes of instructions we would try to imbibe, and the pastimes that we would enact in dramas for the public. Distributing them to libraries and far and wide. They were and are a wonderful service in themselves. No doubt Chaitanya Charitamrtam is a monumental miracle. Still Prabhupad the person and his service, always came before the Krsna book.

And Krsna verifies that in Srimad Bhagavatam.

Your dasanudas

[AncientMariner 0]

"Remember from the viewpoint of Vaisnavism every thing is ultimately a person. So the Bhavavatam, the book Bhagavat is ultimately Krsna. The guru is not Krsna, although we are told "sakshadhari tvena samasta sastrair". The guru is Krsna's shakti (therefore from that angle the guru is Krsna) and who is the full embodiment of Krsna's shakti?"

 

How come Prabhupada said the book bhagavata and devotee bhagavata are identical and both of them or either of them are competent remedies to eliminate the obstacles in the path of self realization? What is your interpretation of what Prabhupada was saying?

[AncientMariner 0]

"When they come across the part in the books that states one should hear the sastra from a realized soul otherwise the potency won't be there, then don't follow that advice given just continue on with your own conclusions, ignore what the books are saying, because after all a book isn't going to correct our misconception."

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" Paul Simon.

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada:

 

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing." (Letter to Rupanuga Das 19/10/74

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

"When they come across the part in the books that states one should hear the sastra from a realized soul otherwise the potency won't be there, then don't follow that advice given just continue on with your own conclusions, ignore what the books are saying, because after all a book isn't going to correct our misconception."

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" Paul Simon.

 

Prabhupada:

 

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing." (Letter to Rupanuga Das 19/10/74

 

As Prabhupada once said during the installation of the Radha Krsna dieties in L.A. ,"be careful you are dealing with Krsna." Krsna's nature is acintya bheda - abheda tattva. Every aspect of Krsna and His multifareous energies are simultaneously one and differents from themselves. First off specific topic you are discusing first must be seperated from the rtvik/diksha issue. Krsna can reveal Himself through the agency of guru however He wants. So if He wants that revelation can come through Prabhupada's books. At the same time we cannot ignore Srila Prabhupada's description of Narada Muni's childhood service to the "Bhaktivedantas:

"But actually these are facts explained by Śrīla Nāradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant’s son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Śrīla Nāradadeva."

I can't recall the verse In Gita that Srila Sridhar Maharaja paraphrases but he says that Krsna says, "I am there but I am not there. I am everywhere but I am no where. I don't think that the poster Guruvani sees this and you appear to now be going down the same road. Just when you think you have Krsna all figured out, then you don't. Try to have a balanced approach. "Be careful you are dealing with Krsna."

[AncientMariner 0]

 

As Prabhupada once said during the installation of the Radha Krsna dieties in L.A. ,"be careful you are dealing with Krsna." Krsna's nature is acintya bheda - abheda tattva. Every aspect of Krsna and His multifareous energies are simultaneously one and differents from themselves. First off specific topic you are discusing first must be seperated from the rtvik/diksha issue. Krsna can reveal Himself through the agency of guru however He wants. So if He wants that revelation can come through Prabhupada's books. At the same time we cannot ignore Srila Prabhupada's description of Narada Muni's childhood service to the "Bhaktivedantas:

"But actually these are facts explained by Śrīla Nāradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant’s son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Śrīla Nāradadeva."

I can't recall the verse In Gita that Srila Sridhar Maharaja paraphrases but he says that Krsna says, "I am there but I am not there. I am everywhere but I am no where. I don't think that the poster Guruvani sees this and you appear to now be going down the same road. Just when you think you have Krsna all figured out, then you don't. Try to have a balanced approach. "Be careful you are dealing with Krsna."

 

What exactly do you mean by balanced approach? Does that mean I have to agree that Prabhupada is not accessible by his books?