Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja; agree on raga-bhakti?

[gHari 0]

They are words in sentences. Simple logic dictated my statements. If you want to try to cheat then that is your privilege. You are saying that the ragamuffin off the street on his first day in the Temple is liberated and can pursue raganuga - I simply noted that NOD states that only after the anartha-nivRtti stage can raga begin, then only with the mercy of Sri Krsna or His devotee. I'm just reading the words in the book.

 

My understanding is that liberation, nama, and svarupa are simultaneous phenomena.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Prabhupada gave his books as the Bible of the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Letters are relative and incidental in many cases.

 

 

And yet, the books were edited far more severely by Prabhupada's ambitious disciples, while the letters were directly dictated by Prabhupada.

 

So the books may represent Jagannatha-suta's or Jayadvaita's point of view regarding Prabhupada's Bible, but at least the letters (except for a time in 1977) represent Prabhupada's conditional statements directly.

[theist 1]

 

Well, considering that actions speak louder than words, we could also conclude that one would therefore be prohibited from any public act of raga-bhakti, which would put a sever strain on the execution of many acts of devotion.

 

"Those who say they have raga-bhakti" could as well include anyone who manifests any public display of affection or attraction to the Lord.

 

To strip devotees of any and all acts and forms of spontaneous service and attraction seems to reduce the devotee down to a non-feeling, non-caring, non-loving robot.

 

Why should Saraswata devotees be herded into the corral of vaidhi-bhakti and deprived of spontaneous feelings?

 

It appears to me that you are reading WAYtoo much into a few words said in conversation. Do you know the context of that conversation?

 

The thought that BR Sridhara Maharaja wants to deprive everyone from feelings of spontaneous love for Krsna is absurd. It is obvious too me he was talking about people who spend time and effort on promoting themselves as spontaneous loving servants of Krsna. One who is promoting himself in such a way is clearly not in any spontaneous mood and is a fraud.

[theist 1]

If this is the same nameless guest making all these posts I would request you distinquish yourself.

[Admin5 1]

 

If this is the same nameless guest making all these posts I would request you distinquish yourself.

Guest posts 1, 4, 7, 8, 9, 18, 20, 21, 23, and 25 are by the same person.

[Guest guest]

 

And yet, the books were edited far more severely by Prabhupada's ambitious disciples, while the letters were directly dictated by Prabhupada.

 

So the books may represent Jagannatha-suta's or Jayadvaita's point of view regarding Prabhupada's Bible, but at least the letters (except for a time in 1977) represent Prabhupada's conditional statements directly.

 

I think that is an extreme over-exageration that really amounts to blaspheme of Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

The tampering with Srila Prabhupada's books don't amount to 1/10th of 1%.

I am certainly not going to let a few changes in phrasing harm my faith in Srila Prabhupada's books which are very nectarean even after the editors did their work.

 

That's a very lame excuse to minimize the authority of Srila Prabhupada's books.

Letters can be manufactured and altered without any editorial supervision.

 

I'll put my faith in the books.

 

I could manufacture a letter from Prabhupada and deceive hundreds of devotees.

I can't change the books.

 

The only letter from Prabhupada that would matter to me would be a letter from him to me.

 

I never got a letter from Srila Prabhupada, so I depend on the books.

[gHari 0]

Anartha-nivRtti -- a stage in the progressive development of devotion to Lord KRSNa in which one is freed from unwanted desires and karmic reactions; cleansing the heart of all unwanted things [from Vedabase Glossary]

 

Conversation 1976

PrabhupAda: First of all, anartha-nivRtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarUpa. Where is your svarUpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. SvarUpa, when you are cured, that is svarUpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarUpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivRtti, that is anartha-nivRtti. Then svarUpa will come. That is the bAbAjIs. In VRndAvana, you have seen? Siddha-praNAlI.

Pradyumna: Ah, siddha-praNAlI, siddha-deha?

PrabhupAda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women -- svarUpa! Rascal. This is called sahajiyA, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarUpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarUpa, then talk of svarUpa.

Devotee: So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death.

PrabhupAda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking utopian? First business is anartha-nivRttiH syAt. Adau zraddhA tathaH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA tato anartha-nivRttiH syAt. You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "KRSNa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivRttiH syAt, you'll be free from all these.... These are the stages. There is.... Up to anartha-nivRtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niSThA tato rucis tataH, athAsaktis tato bhAvaH. So before svarUpa, anartha-nivRtti, don't expect all these. Read.

 

CC Madhya 23.13p

SrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura summarizes this growth of love of Godhead as a gradual process. A person becomes interested in devotional service by some good fortune. Eventually he becomes interested in pure devotional service without material contamination. At that point, a person wants to associate with devotees. As a result of this association, he becomes more and more interested in discharging devotional service and hearing and chanting. The more one is interested in hearing and chanting, the more he is purified of material contamination. Liberation from material contamination is called anartha-nivRtti, indicating a diminishing of all unwanted things. This is the test of development in devotional service. If one actually develops the devotional attitude, he must be freed from the material contamination of illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. These are the preliminary symptoms. When one is freed from all material contamination, his firm faith in devotional service awakens. When firm faith develops, a taste arises, and by that taste one becomes attached to devotional service. When this attachment intensifies, the seed of love of KRSNa fructifies. This position is called prIti or rati (affection) or bhAva (emotion). When rati intensifies, it is called love of Godhead. This love of Godhead is actually life's highest perfection and the reservoir of all pleasure.

 

Thus devotional life is divided into two stages--sAdhana-bhakti and bhAva-bhakti. SAdhana-bhakti refers to the development of devotional service through the regulative principles. The basic principle for the execution of devotional service is faith. Above that, there is association with devotees, and after that there is initiation by a bona fide spiritual master. After initiation, when one follows the regulative principles of devotional service, one becomes freed from all unwanted things. In this way one becomes firmly fixed and gradually develops a taste for devotional service. The more the taste grows, the more one desires to render service to the Lord. In this way one becomes attached to a particular mellow in the Lord's service--zAnta, dAsya, sakhya, vAtsalya or madhura. As a result of such attachment, bhAva develops. BhAva-bhakti is the platform of purified goodness. By such purified goodness, one's heart melts in devotional service. BhAva-bhakti is the first seed of love of Godhead. This emotional stage is there before one attains pure love. When that emotional stage intensifies, it is called prema-bhakti, or transcendental love of Godhead. This gradual process is also described in the following two verses, which are found in the Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu (1.4.15–16).

 

Narada-bhakti-sutra 2p

[...] The next stage is called anartha-nivRtti, in which all the misgivings of material life are vanquished. A person gradually reaches this stage by regularly performing the primary principles of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master. There are many bad habits we acquire in the association of material contamination, chief of which are illicit sexual relationships, eating animal food, indulging in intoxication, and gambling. The first thing the expert spiritual master does when he engages his disciple in regulated devotional service is to instruct him to abstain from these four principles of sinful life.

 

Since God is supremely pure, one cannot rise to the highest perfectional stage of love of God without being purified. In the Bhagavad-gItA (10.12), when Arjuna accepted KRSNa as the Supreme Lord, he said, pavitraM paramaM bhavAn: "You are the purest of the pure." The Lord is the purest, and thus anyone who wants to serve the Supreme Lord must also be pure. Unless a person is pure, he can neither understand what the Personality of Godhead is nor engage in His service in love, for devotional service, as stated before, begins from the point of self-realization, when all misgivings of materialistic life are vanquished.

 

After following the regulative principles and purifying the material senses, one attains the stage of niSThA, firm faith in the Lord. When a person has attained this stage, no one can deviate him from the conception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No one can persuade him that God is impersonal, without a form, or that any form created by imagination can be accepted as God. Those who espouse these more or less nonsensical conceptions of the Supreme Lord cannot dissuade him from firm faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, KRSNa.

 

In the Bhagavad-gItA Lord KRSNa stresses in many verses that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But despite Lord KRSNa's stressing this point, many so-called scholars and commentators still deny the personal conception of the Lord. One famous scholar wrote in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gItA that one does not have to surrender to Lord KRSNa or even accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but that one should rather surrender to "the Supreme within KRSNa." Such fools do not know what is within and what is without. They comment on the Bhagavad-gItA according to their own whims. Such persons cannot be elevated to the highest stage of love of Godhead. The may be scholarly, and they may be elevated in other departments of knowledge, but they are not even neophytes in the process of attaining the highest stage of perfection, love of Godhead. NiSThA implies that one should accept the words of Bhagavad-gItA, the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as they are, without any deviation or nonsensical commentary.

 

If a person is fortunate enough to vanquish all misgivings caused by material existence and rise up to the stage of niSThA, he can then rise to the stages of ruci (taste) and Asakti (attachment for the Lord). Asakti is the beginning of love of Godhead. By progressing, one then advances to the stage of relishing a reciprocal exchange with the Lord in ecstasy (bhAva). Every living entity is eternally related to the Supreme Lord, and this relationship may be in any one of many transcendental humors. At the stage called Asakti, attachment, a person can understand his relationship with the Supreme Lord. When he understands his position, he begins reciprocating with the Lord. By constant reciprocation with the Lord, the devotee is elevated to the highest stage of love of Godhead, prema.

 

Lecture 1966

So these are the techniques. So Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgaH atha bhajana-kriyA tataH anartha-nivRttiH syAt [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Anartha means... Anartha means that creates my miseries. Material activities will continue to increase my misery. And if you adopt spiritual life, then your material miseries will be gradually decreased, and practically it will be nil. And when we are actually free from material affinity, then your real spiritual life begins. AthAsakti. You become attached. You cannot give up any more. When your anartha-nivRtti, when your material activities are completely stop, then you cannot give up. AthAsakti. Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA tato 'nartha-nivRttiH syAt tato niSThA [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. NiSThA means your faith becomes more firm, fixed up, steady. Tato niSThA tato ruciH. Ruci. Ruci means you will simply hanker after spiritual things. You won't like to hear anything except spiritual message. You won't like to do anything except spiritual activities. You won't like to eat anything which is not spiritualized. So your life will be changed. Tato niSThA athAsaktiH. Then attachment, then bhAva. Then you will be transcendentally, I mean to say, ecstaticized. There will be some ecstasy. And that is the... These are the different steps for highest platform of spiritual life. Tato bhAvaH. Tato bhAvaH. BhAva, that bhAva stage, is the right platform from where you can directly talk with the Supreme Lord.

 

So we have to gradually find out that stage of life. Here the Lord says that by force we cannot stop anyone's material activities. That is not possible. By force, it is not possible. So any other system of spiritual realization, either by the process of philosophical speculation or by this process of artificial, I mean to say, gymnastic of this body, you see, or meditation, forceful meditation... Whole day I am working in a material atmosphere. Suppose for two hours I meditate. Of course, it will make some progress. Anything, spiritual action, that will not go in vain. That is a fact. But that progress is very slow, very slow. Our determination should be... I am very glad to say that our this boy, Mr. Paul, he says sometimes, "Swamiji, I want to increase my spiritual life immediately." (laughs) Take patience, patience. It will be done, of course. When you have got such desire, God will help you. He is within you. He is simply trying to see how much sincere you are. Then He will give you all opportunities to increase your spiritual life. TeSAM satata-yuktAnAM bhajatAM prIti-pUrvakam [Bg. 10.10], dadAmi buddhi-yogam.

 

So if we become sincerely to be servant of God, just like Arjuna became, and if we want to serve His purpose and mission, as soon as... The Lord is within you. IzvaraH sarva-bhUtAnAM hRd-deze 'rjuna tiSThati [Bg. 18.61]. He is simply waiting, when you are turning your face towards Him. You are now turned your face towards mAyA, the illusion. As soon as you turn your face towards Him, oh, He will help you in every respect, every respect. He is so kind. He is so merciful. Just like father. However rebellious son he may be, as soon as comes to his father, "Father, forgive me. I shall now obey you," that father at once... He was always ready to forgive him. Father is so kind to the son that he wants that "If my son comes back, I shall forgive all his misgiving, if he comes back just like a good boy." That is a natural instinct. You see? Similarly, whatever we have done, never mind. If we take the step that "From now we have got the opportunity of human life. Now this life... I have enjoyed material life in various lives, as cats and dogs and in so many lives, the AhAra-nidrA-bhaya-maithunaM ca, the same pleasure, eating, sleeping, and sexual intercourse and to take protection... So this is not the business of human life. The human life is just to understand my relationship with the Supreme and engage myself in that engagement." You see? That should be the mission of life. And as soon as we do it, all facilities are open and the little progress you make, you will find that you have no more attachment for material life and material enjoyment.

 

Thank you very much. (end)

[theist 1]

Thanks Admin.

[Guest guest]

"All these days we have not spoken about lila. Why? Because this is our most confidential asset. This is our only sadhya (perfection). But, one should not make the mistake of thinking that anartha-nivrtti (overcoming impediments such as lust and greed) is the prayojana (goal of life). One thinking like this will never enter into artha-pravrtti (acquiring one's actual need). For this reason, I will begin speaking about asta-kaliya-lila. I know that you are not ready to hear it. But we should know such a transcendental ideal exists within the realm of devotion. This is why anartha-nivrtti is essential. After the realm of anartha-nivrtti is artha-pravrtti, pure conjugal service to Radha and Krsna. This is transcendental reality. If we do not know of this transcendental realm, then all of our efforts may end in nirvisesa-vada (impersonalism). Do not let your day pass in trying for anartha-nivrtti. Artha-pravrtti is also necessary. Anartha-nivrtti is necessary until artha-pravrtti has started. When artha-pravrtti is present then anartha-nivrtti becomes unimportant - artha-pravrtti becomes prominent."

 

<b>"Those who have chanted hari-nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things.</b> The beginners need not hear these topics or they will misunderstand. These topics are for certain audiences, not for all.

 

---<i>Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur</i>

[raga 0]

 

<b>"Those who have chanted hari-nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things.</b> The beginners need not hear these topics or they will misunderstand. These topics are for certain audiences, not for all.

 

---<i>Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur</i>

I believe his idea was that it's for those who have changed for fifteen or twenty years, one lakh (64 rounds) daily. For those chanting 16 rounds, it would then read "<i>those who have chanted hari-nama for sixty or eighty years...</i>."

 

--

 

Regarding earlier comments on my posts, I'm disinclined to respond to guests who don't identify themselves.

[Guest guest]

 

I believe his idea was that it's for those who have changed for fifteen or twenty years, one lakh (64 rounds) daily.

 

 

 

So, now the child genius of the babajis is telling the Saraswata devotees what was the actual mind of Saraswati Thakur?

 

Does that mean that you are now the prodigal child of the Saraswata school? Or are you just advertising that at the babaji camp you can get your svarupa in a matter of weeks or months without chanting a lakh of rounds a day for 60 years in order to get siddha-pranali?

 

Just curious.

[Guest guest]

 

 

These rAgAnugA devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or YazodA, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously.

 

 

 

As well,

 

 

The natural inclination to devotional service is also based on scriptural injunction, and one who has attachment for such devotional service is not required to give it up simply on the strength of scriptural argument.

[SishirSaha 0]

anartha na gele sisye jata-rati bole na

anartha-visistha sisye rasa-tattva bole na

 

Translation:

Without the removal of anarthas, attachment (rati) cannot blossom in the disciple. So a disciple infested with anartha is never instructed in rasa-tattva.

 

Verse 59 of Prakrta Rasa Shatadushani, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

[Beggar 0]

 

anartha na gele sisye jata-rati bole na

anartha-visistha sisye rasa-tattva bole na

 

Translation:

Without the removal of anarthas, attachment (rati) cannot blossom in the disciple. So a disciple infested with anartha is never instructed in rasa-tattva.

 

Verse 59 of Prakrta Rasa Shatadushani, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

Ask Jagat from the Babaji camp if what Narayana Maharaja is giving about rasa-tattva is detailed or cursory. In fact others are giving also things that could be considered beyond the purview of Prabhupada's teachings. Do you think that Sridhar Maharaja never explained the position of the manjaris to the Westerners?

[SishirSaha 0]

What does it matter to me what Sridhara Swami says? I don't follow any of those Gaudiya Math swamis. I have read most of the books of Sridhara Svami in English and I read many of other books published from Gaudiya Matha. Even I have many books I bought at the Bagh Bazaar temple of Gaudiya Mission when I visited Kolkata last year because they are printing the books of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur which I wanted to read in the original Bengali. But I am most definitely not a follower of Gaudiya Math and I never will be.

[Beggar 0]

 

What does it matter to me what Sridhara Swami says? I don't follow any of those Gaudiya Math swamis.

That's true. Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur gave sannyas to Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja gave sannyas to Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja gave sannyas to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

 

anartha na gele sisye jata-rati bole na

anartha-visistha sisye rasa-tattva bole na

 

Translation:

Without the removal of anarthas, attachment (rati) cannot blossom in the disciple. So a disciple infested with anartha is never instructed in rasa-tattva.

 

Verse 59 of Prakrta Rasa Shatadushani, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

 

perhaps the worst anartha of all is to begrudge a Vaishnava for his shortcomings and slander him over circumstantial weakness.

 

when we get rid of that most abominable anartha of persecuting devotees for some shortcoming, then we can get a glimse of what is anartha-nivrtti.

 

trees also follow the four regs.

 

following the four regs is not a major accomplishment if we don't know foregiveness, compassion and mercy.

 

self-righteous indignation and superiority complex is the most repulsive anartha.

 

When all your pride and dignity has been taken from you, then you will start to feel what is humility.

 

Everyone loves Krishna but me.

That is the humble feeling of an advanced devotee.

 

Everyone can follow raga but me. it's ok.

[Guest guest]

 

What does it matter to me what Sridhara Swami says? I don't follow any of those Gaudiya Math swamis. I have read most of the books of Sridhara Svami in English and I read many of other books published from Gaudiya Matha. Even I have many books I bought at the Bagh Bazaar temple of Gaudiya Mission when I visited Kolkata last year because they are printing the books of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur which I wanted to read in the original Bengali. But I am most definitely not a follower of Gaudiya Math and I never will be.

 

Reading books?

But, have you followed the regulative principles for years and taken diksha from a spiritual master?

Have you chanted regularly maha-mantra and practiced austerity, sacrifice and service to the guru for many years?

 

Apparently not, because you cannot detect a pure devotee when you hear him.

 

When you have practiced bhakti and devotional service sincerely for a long time, the maybe you will be able to appreciate great Vaishnavas from any Matha or sect.

[SishirSaha 0]

According to Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his book Sri Krsna Samhita those trees Nalakuvara and Manigriva symbolize the stage of devotion when a devotee is infected with the anartha of lustful sex desire. To get free of this anartha they were born as trees so they could follow some regulation of their behaviour and not do lusty things.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote many things in Prakrtarasasatadushani telling not to speak of lila-katha to neophytes who are infected with the anarthas of Nalakuvara and Manigriva. Neophytes who have not reached anartha-nivritti should not listen to the rasa-lila and other higher pastimes of Radha-Govinda.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has described many beautiful pastimes of Radha-Krsna we can meditate on. Pastimes which are appropriate for neophytes. But neophytes shouldn't meditate on rasa-lila.

 

jasomati-ajna pe'ye dhanistha-anito

sri-krsna-prasada radha bhunje ho'ye prito

lalitadi sakhi-gana avasesa paya

mane mane sukhe radha-krsna-guna gaya

[SishirSaha 0]

Beggar asked me if I have met Sudhir Goswami and Govinda Maharja. Then beggar deleted his message. I don't know why.

 

Beggar I have visited their temple. Early one morning I came from Mayapura with one of my friends and we visited their temple for a whole day. We rode to there on our bicycles after visiting the temple of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaja in Nabadwip. I didn't get into trouble for that because my Gurudeva said we should go there and see their temple. I talked with the old brahmacaris and a sanyasi there. I listened to a class by an old brahmacari called Haricharan das. He ws reading from Caitanya Bhagavata. We talked with him for a long time after the class. He took us to meet a sanyasi called acharya maharaja from Bangladesh (my family are from Bangladesh). He was a very nice devotee. I never met govinda Maharaja. Maybe I will one day. They are not against ISKCON. When I asked Haricharan about Narayana Maharaja he said "Narayana Maharaja is a disciple of Kesava Maharaja. Kesava Maharaja is a sanyasa-sisya of Guru Maharaja (Sridhar). We are all following Guru Maharaja directly here at this Math".

[Beggar 0]

 

Then beggar deleted his message. I don't know why.

 

Another message mysteriously disappears. Maybe premature Alzheimers disease. Very nice experience. I'm not really in any camp, or so it seems. In going in between camps I have noticed that some in the Narayana Maharaja camp assume that Govinda Maharaja's camp is an antiparty that Govinda Maharaja can't be a pure devotee (and of course visa versa). I have also met Govinda Maharaja and he seems to be a very exalted pure devotee. I know Narayana Maharaja and I feel that this is also true of him. I know that there are deep divisions and outlooks. But I also know that somehow they are both trying to serve their gurudevas and that their service has be uninterrupted for a very long time. Also both had extensive association with Prabhupada especially pre-ISKCON times. I spoke with Narayana Maharaja about his position on the current ISKCON leaders and he assured me that he had great admiration and respect for their service to Prabhupada over these many years. He said that he just wants them to be more "liberal" and "come closer to the real Krsna Consciousness." It's obvious that you are concerned with some of his rhetoric, but its always good to give devotees the benefit of the doubt. It just seems to me that all this fighting, offenses and counter-offenses are somekind of sign that the Earth planet is in serious trouble. In America we have a famous history of two hillbilly families known as the Hatfields and the M'Coys. They were well known for an intractable feud that lasted a few generations. Its time for the feuds amongst the Gaudiya Vaisnava groups to come to and end. It has to be, the whole World is depending on it, even if they don't know it. It's time to fulfill the real vision of Bhaktivode Thakur, that devotees from all over the World will come together with the Bengali and Indian Devotees in a unified way and gloriy Gaur Nitai.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

Another message mysteriously disappears. Maybe premature Alzheimers disease. Very nice experience. I'm not really in any camp, or so it seems. In going in between camps I have noticed that some in the Narayana Maharaja camp assume that Govinda Maharaja's camp is an antiparty that Govinda Maharaja can't be a pure devotee (and of course visa versa). I have also met Govinda Maharaja and he seems to be a very exalted pure devotee. I know Narayana Maharaja and I feel that this is also true of him. I know that there are deep divisions and outlooks. But I also know that somehow they are both trying to serve their gurudevas and that their service has be uninterrupted for a very long time. Also both had extensive association with Prabhupada especially pre-ISKCON times. I spoke with Narayana Maharaja about his position on the current ISKCON leaders and he assured me that he had great admiration and respect for their service to Prabhupada over these many years. He said that he just wants them to be more "liberal" and "come closer to the real Krsna Consciousness." It's obvious that you are concerned with some of his rhetoric, but its always good to give devotees the benefit of the doubt. It just seems to me that all this fighting, offenses and counter-offenses are somekind of sign that the Earth planet is in serious trouble. In America we have a famous history of two hillbilly families known as the Hatfields and the M'Coys. They were well known for an intractable feud that lasted a few generations. Its time for the feuds amongst the Gaudiya Vaisnava groups to come to and end. It has to be, the whole World is depending on it, even if they don't know it. It's time to fulfill the real vision of Bhaktivode Thakur, that devotees from all over the World will come together with the Bengali and Indian Devotees in a unified way and gloriy Gaur Nitai.

 

 

I know virtually nothing about any other gurus than Prabhupada and what I know about him I only know from reading his books. To be honest I am not at all qualified to have any sort of opinion one way or another on any of the other Gaudiya Gurus. I hope you are right that the feuds between different groups can come to an end because based on my limited vision it seems like there is a lot of merit to Krishna Consciousness.

[Guest guest]

I hope you are right that the feuds between different groups can come to an end because based on my limited vision it seems like there is a lot of merit to Krishna Consciousness.

[Guest guest]

If you really think about it in terms of "not a blade of grass moves without the will of the supreme Lord" and that the Yadus had a big internal feud and destoyed every last one of them except for the Pandavas, then you can start to understand that feuds are part of the Lord's plan and that feuds are natural and unavoidable.

 

It's the nature of this vitiated plane called "the world".

 

In the highest vision, the feud is also Krishna.

It has a reason and purpose, though it might not be apparent from a outside viewpoint.

 

Even in Goloka there is a feud between Radhika and Candravali.

 

Feuding can be spiritual if Krishna is at the center of the feud.

[Beggar 0]

 

If you really think about it in terms of "not a blade of grass moves without the will of the supreme Lord" and that the Yadus had a big internal feud and destoyed every last one of them except for the Pandavas, then you can start to understand that feuds are part of the Lord's plan and that feuds are natural and unavoidable.

 

It's the nature of this vitiated plane called "the world".

 

In the highest vision, the feud is also Krishna.

It has a reason and purpose, though it might not be apparent from a outside viewpoint.

 

Even in Goloka there is a feud between Radhika and Candravali.

 

Feuding can be spiritual if Krishna is at the center of the feud.

Its good that Krsna is the center of these fights. I don't think that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur desired to bring Westerners to Mayapur/Navadvip to display their expertness is "fighting and sex life". If the current Saraswat Vaisnavas wish to go on with their fratricidal war they will find the different camps of babajis the victors by default. Is this what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada wanted?