Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

>

> Secondly, I am concerned for many of Srila Prabhupada's wonderful

> granddisciples who have been left in a difficult situation due to cheating

> "gurus". They did not receive diksa from these cheating gurus obviously

> or,

 

Then why do you call them "wonderful *granddisciples*"??

 

 

> if they did, it was by the grace of Srila Prabhupada in his

> "non-living" form.

 

Then call them Prabhupada's *disciples*.

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

On 17 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> Then why do you call them "wonderful *granddisciples*"??

 

>

> > if they did, it was by the grace of Srila Prabhupada in his

> > "non-living" form.

>

> Then call them Prabhupada's *disciples*.

 

 

You're right. I apologize. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Anantarupa wrote

>

> I received Diksha from Harikesha Swami. At the time, he was in good

> standing. He always simply tried to do as Prabhupada told and was,

> therefore, a bona fide guru. I feel that the diksha he gave me is a bona

> fide connection to the parampara. I do not feel cheated or lost, even

> though he now acts in a way which contradicts Prabhupada's teachings. He

> taught me the philosophy of Krishna consciousness well enough for me to

> understand that he has a problem at present and does not represent the

> parampara.

>

Hear, hear.

I also feel the same as you prabhu. Having also taken diksa from a fallen

guru.

 

Your servant, Gokula das

[Guest guest]

On 16 May 1999, Tulasi-priya Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> I meant is acarya in the sense of how

> Prabhupada was "founder-acarya" of ISKCON.

 

 

Simply from a logistical standpoint, no one else can be the founder/acarya of

ISKCON.

 

> That list of acaryas in BG is only

> partial; it's a list of major acaryas, who "set" standards, not merely

> following them.

 

 

If taken as a partial list, then it would appear that some of those acaryas

took diksa from devotees who for whatever reason didn't make the 'big' list --

so go figure how their disciple was able to accomplish themselves even while

not having a guru as 'famous' as themselves?

 

 

> In other words, Prabhupada is the last person to set standards

> for Krsna consciousness in general, for the whole world, what to speak of

ISKCON.

>

>

 

 

He certainly set standards for ISKCON, and as his followers we feel the world

would benefit if they were engaged within general human society. But in a

broad sense those standards had already been set -- it was Prabhupada who

found a way to practically engage them.

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

[Guest guest]

On 18 May 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> On 16 May 1999, Tulasi-priya Devi Dasi wrote:

>

> > I meant is acarya in the sense of how

> > Prabhupada was "founder-acarya" of ISKCON.

>

>

> Simply from a logistical standpoint, no one else can be the founder/acarya

of

> ISKCON.

 

Though some have tried to create their own standards in violation of what

Prabhupada established. Kirtananda comes to mind, but there were (and are)

plenty others. Many accepted his innovations because he was considered an

"acarya." Those who deviated (and consequently fell down) would have been just

as much "acarya" if they simply followed the instructions.

 

 

 

>

> > That list of acaryas in BG is only

> > partial; it's a list of major acaryas, who "set" standards, not merely

> > following them.

>

>

> If taken as a partial list, then it would appear that some of those acaryas

> took diksa from devotees who for whatever reason didn't make the 'big'

list --

> so go figure how their disciple was able to accomplish themselves even while

> not having a guru as 'famous' as themselves?

 

 

What does fame have to do with it? or for that matter charisma (which seems to

be a big draw for a lot of devotees aspiring for diksa)?

If fame is a criteria, then Srila Bhaktivinoda was irrelevant compared to his

son or Srila Prabhupada. I wouldn't like to be caught even thinking such a

thing.

>

>

> > In other words, Prabhupada is the last person to set standards

> > for Krsna consciousness in general, for the whole world, what to speak of

> ISKCON.

> >

> >

>

>

> He certainly set standards for ISKCON, and as his followers we feel the

world

> would benefit if they were engaged within general human society.

 

 

I don't think it's a matter of whether his disciples "feel" they would benefit

or not--Krsna conscious is the eternal svarupa of every living entity. I don't

mean you can force all the rules and regs on the pulace at large, of course,

but the general principle of KC is required for everyone, whether the accept

Prabhupada as guru or not.

 

 

 

But in a

> broad sense those standards had already been set -- it was Prabhupada who

> found a way to practically engage them.

 

 

Absolutely. And he took into consideration the time (the next 10,000 years),

the place (the whole world), and the circumstances (since future circumstances

or individual ciricumstances are not wholly predictable, he gave general, but

firm instructions, the details of which are applied by his disciples in their

own lives, and as instructions to their siksa/diksa disciples).

 

Prabhupada gave a lot of various instructions, but the only ones that I think

of that are iron-clad, inviolable, and universally practicable are

 

1. No meat-eating

2. No illicit sex

3. No intoxication

4. No gambling

5. Chant (at least) 16 rounds of the maha-mantra every day.

6. Study SP's books

7. Eat only Krsna-prasadam

8.Preach

 

These are all directed at individuals, which means there's no impediment to

implementing these instructions right now, except lack of faith and desire. As

each individual fulfills his personal obligation to Srila Prabhupada, the

sakti will manifest to solve the institutional problems (like the diksa issue)

as well as fulfill societal obligations, like varnasrama-dharma. If we each

clean up our own room in Prabhupada's house, then there's a better chance of

having the whole house clean, n'est-ce pas?

 

 

Ys,

Tulsai-priya dasi

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Tulasi-priya Devi Dasi wrote:

 

 

> Prabhupada gave a lot of various instructions, but the only ones that I

think

> of that are iron-clad, inviolable, and universally practicable are

>

> 1. No meat-eating

> 2. No illicit sex

> 3. No intoxication

> 4. No gambling

> 5. Chant (at least) 16 rounds of the maha-mantra every day.

> 6. Study SP's books

> 7. Eat only Krsna-prasadam

> 8.Preach

 

 

Not everyone will be able ( as is painfully obvious in ISKCON) to do all these

Vaisnava principles right away.

 

"Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be

established to BECOME a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become

Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so

many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest

qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall

down."

 

 

Is it all so black & white?

 

 

1. No meat-eating Bhima ate meat. "Just like ksatriya, they must learn

how to kill. So, practically, they should go to the forest and kill some

animal, and if he likes he can eat also....Those who are ksatriyas, they are

allowed sometimes to eat meat." SP '74

 

2. No illicit sex There were millions of prostitutes in Dvaraka. They

were all devotees in Dvaraka. Weren't they?

 

3. No intoxication

"If someone is adamant to drink wine there is Durga puja, Candi puja"

SP '74

 

4. No gambling "Four kinds of sinful activities - associating with

women for illicit sex, eating meat, intoxication and gambling - are allowed

for the ksatriyas. For political reasons, sometimes they have to take to these

sinful activities. Ksatriyas do not refrain from gambling. One vivid example

is the Pandavas." S.B. 4.22.13

 

5. Chant (at least) 16 rounds of the maha-mantra every day.

 

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced

them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the

varnasrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people

will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds.

(And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the

varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

 

"Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got

three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name

withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five

women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is

required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be

introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes."

6. Study SP's books

 

"In reference to Varnasrama: Visnujana Swami: This is the most auspicious work

for now, this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world right now.

Prabhupada: Yes, most auspicious. If the people are in chaos, how will they be

able to accept the great philosophy? It requires a cool brain." SP '74

 

 

7. Eat only Krsna-prasadam See above

 

8.Preach

 

"Madhuvisa Swami: Srila Prabhupada, Krsna says in Bg, "Those who repeat this

message of Bg, those persons are most dear to Me. There is no one more dear to

Me than he." Now wouldn't that indicate that a preacher is higher than a

worker?

Srila Prabhupada: No! This is preaching - to help. Suppose you are preaching

and I am helping you. This is also preaching."

SP varnasrama morning walks '74

 

 

> These are all directed at individuals, which means there's no impediment to

> implementing these instructions right now, except lack of faith and desire.

 

 

Pretty big "lacks" for conditioned souls who have been in this material world

for a few million years wouldn't you say? How are you going to get them to

just jump right into being Vaisnavas?

 

"Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was

not possible in this age to introduce this (VAD).

Prabhupada: Yes. .... Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual

platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna

consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa.

He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be

niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is

also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole

society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning,

"I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply

interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall

arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the

spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But

we are preaching. We are preaching."

 

 

>As

> each individual fulfills his personal obligation to Srila Prabhupada, the

> sakti will manifest to solve the institutional problems (like the diksa

issue)

> as well as fulfill societal obligations, like varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

You are putting the cart before the horse aren't you?

 

"Visnujana Swami: No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krsna consciousness.

But if they are already disturbed in every respect, how will they take it?

Therefore we are taking this subject to help them to come to Krsna

consciousness. And this is the method - varna-asrama." SP '74

 

 

 

If we each

> clean up our own room in Prabhupada's house, then there's a better chance of

> having the whole house clean, n'est-ce pas?

 

 

I am a fool and rascal and I am too attached to this material world. This has

caused me to be disturbed in so many ways and I have little peace of mind. I

NEED VARNASRAMA DHARMA TO HELP ME COME TO KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Not the other

way around.

[Guest guest]

>

> What does fame have to do with it?

 

Naturally, that is not the qualification one considers in such things. But my

point in utilizing that word is that it might appear that somehow a guru on

the -big- list who's predecessor acarya didn't get his name posted might

somehow be thought of by an outsider as somehow more accomplished than his own

spiritual master. Indirectly I was taking a swipe at the idea of 'is this guru

maha-bhagavata enough for me to allow myself to be considered his disciple'.

As you so rightly pointed out, such considerations do not seem to preoccupy

the established acaryas in our line.

 

 

>

> I don't think it's a matter of whether his disciples "feel" they would

benefit or not--Krsna conscious is the eternal svarupa of every living entity.

I don't mean you can force all the rules and regs on the pulace at large, of

course, but the general principle of KC is required for everyone, whether the

accept Prabhupada as guru or not.

>

 

 

Yes, that was Prabhupada presentation as has been repeated by the acaryas

since time immemorial.

 

 

 

>

>

> Absolutely. And he took into consideration the time (the next 10,000 years),

the place (the whole world), and the circumstances (since future circumstances

or individual ciricumstances are not wholly predictable, he gave general, but

firm instructions, the details of which are applied by his disciples in their

own lives, and as instructions to their siksa/diksa disciples).

>

 

 

I believe his specific quote along those lines refers to his books being used

as lawbooks (I would imagine specifically with regards to executing devotional

service) for the next ten thousand years. The principles he preached are

eternal, and not subjected to any particular time frame.

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Someone who already got a pure soul, a maha-bhagavata, for a guru

> > would hardly be expected to feel the need for praying to Krsna to

> > send him one. Krsna might "wonder", "What's going on? I have already

>

> > sent him one, and he is still praying me for."

> >

>

> Then there is the issue of a conditioned soul being able to recognize

> the

> qualities of the truly advanced devotees. I believe the story of

> Gadhara

> Pandit and Pundarik Vidyanidhi could be relevant in this light -- and

> by no

> stretch of the imagination could Gadadhara Pandit be considered

> 'conditional'.

>

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu called Pundarika Vidyanidhi "father," and He

gave him the title Premanidhi. Pundarika Vidyanidhi later became the

spiritual master of Gadadhara Pandita and an intimate friend of Svarupa

Damodara's. Gadadhara Pandita at first misunderstood Pundarika

Vidyanidhi to be an ordinary pounds-and-shillings man, but later, upon

being corrected by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he became his disciple.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Adi 10.14

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

> On 19 May 1999, Tulasi-priya Devi Dasi wrote:

>

>

> > Prabhupada gave a lot of various instructions, but the only ones that I

> think

> > of that are iron-clad, inviolable, and universally practicable are

> >

> > 1. No meat-eating

> > 2. No illicit sex

> > 3. No intoxication

> > 4. No gambling

> > 5. Chant (at least) 16 rounds of the maha-mantra every day.

> > 6. Study SP's books

> > 7. Eat only Krsna-prasadam

> > 8.Preach

>

>

> Not everyone will be able ( as is painfully obvious in ISKCON) to do all

these

> Vaisnava principles right away.

>

 

 

Prabhu, I don't disagree that everyone will not be able to do this right away,

but I'm not talking about everyone. I'm talking about those of us who have

PROMISED our spiritual master to do those things. From everything I've read

and heard, Prabhupada fully expected us to follow those vows once we made

them, and if we fell down, to immediately rectify. He did not give us, who

have formally taken those vows, more than we could handle.

 

As to the examples you gave of those not following, they are all sanctioned

and regulated by Vedic culture in one way or another, but those particular

individuals did not take vows we have taken.

 

Prabhupada called the regs the "regulative principles of **freedom**" Those he

gave initiation to were, for the most part, meant to be the heads of this

varnasrama society we so desperately need. I don't think you should exclude

yourself from that group. You're certainly intelligent enough.

 

 

 

> I am a fool and rascal and I am too attached to this material world. This

has

> caused me to be disturbed in so many ways and I have little peace of mind.

 

You're a brahmana, damnit, and if you have to, you can act as a ksatriya, in

order to show ksatriyas how it's supposed to be done. Don't sell yourself

short. How can you have peace of mind if you're not true to your word? Set

yourself free. Follow. At least don't tell yourself you can't do it.

 

I

> NEED VARNASRAMA DHARMA TO HELP ME COME TO KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Not the other

> way around.

>

 

Prabhu, have you ever heard of the Combat Zone in Boston? I think Stitha-dhi,

who's from Boston, will tell you that not even the cops liked to be there, but

that was my field of activities for some time. More degraded you can't get.

But all it took was the association of a few of Prabhupada's grand-disciples

to show me that life could be different, and it is. I became free when I made

up my mind to follow. I have fallen down at times, am still relatively fallen,

but I am moving forward. My intelligence blossomed when I gave up my grossly

sinful activities and I could see (after some years of mental struggle) where

I needed to go. Now I'm getting ready to move to cow country and grow

vegetables. We all have to start somewhere, but we don't have to stay there.

 

If you are determined to see yourself as lacking, even after receiving your

freedom from Prabhupada, than nothing, not even VAD, is going is going to

change that. "Ask not what varnasrama-dharma can do for you, ask what you can

do for varnasrama." To establish VAD, we have to be sober and cool-headed, not

mired in self-destructive behavior and attitudes.

 

Please forgive me if I've offended you, but I really can't stand to hear

devotees talk about themselves in such hopeless terms.

 

Your servant,

Tulasi-priya dasi

[Guest guest]

On 20 May 1999, Tulasi-priya Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> On 19 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> > Not everyone will be able ( as is painfully obvious in ISKCON) to do all

> these

> > Vaisnava principles right away.

 

 

 

> Prabhu, I don't disagree that everyone will not be able to do this right

away,

> but I'm not talking about everyone. I'm talking about those of us who have

> PROMISED our spiritual master to do those things. From everything I've read

> and heard, Prabhupada fully expected us to follow those vows once we made

> them, and if we fell down, to immediately rectify. He did not give us, who

> have formally taken those vows, more than we could handle.

 

 

Some of us, either pretentiously or naively accepting commands from others not

qualified, accepted vows we had no business taking in the first place. In

general, vows are forbidden in Kali-yuga. Same as sannyasa and we all know how

unsuccessful that has been in ISKCON. Most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples

have fallen from their "vows" because they were not rightly situated within

their varna. ISKCON has tried to make brahmanas out of everyone. Srila

Prabhupada had different advice which to date is not being heeded:

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be

sudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava.

But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the

platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system

(VAD) must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have

now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by

experience that they're falling down.

 

So, do you think Srila Prabhupada wants those disciples who fell from

contrived "brahmana" vows to take the same thing up again or just never return

at all? I think not.

 

 

> As to the examples you gave of those not following, they are all sanctioned

> and regulated by Vedic culture in one way or another, but those particular

> individuals did not take vows we have taken.

 

 

The Pandavas all took many vows. But they were well established in

varnasrama-dharma FIRST.

 

 

 

> You're a brahmana, damnit,

 

 

I love that spirit! :-)

 

 

> and if you have to, you can act as a ksatriya, in

> order to show ksatriyas how it's supposed to be done.

 

 

No, I am an aspiring ksatriya who wishes to learn Bhagavad-gita because it was

especially written for ksatriyas so they could manage the citizens

accordingly. That is what I aspire for. Step-by-step!

 

 

> Don't sell yourself

> short. How can you have peace of mind if you're not true to your word? Set

> yourself free. Follow. At least don't tell yourself you can't do it.

 

 

Actually, Prabhu, I have never felt better about my advancement. I chant japa

every morning, prayers, food to Deities, flowers, incense, books, memorize

verses (over 200!) ... the whole shabang! But in my heart of hearts I know

where I am at. The more "advanced" I become the more I realize how little

advanced I am.

 

I said it as follows but I'll change it it a little, just for you...

 

I

> > NEED VARNASRAMA DHARMA TO HELP ME COME TO KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Not the

other

> > way around.

 

 

 

I NEED VARNASRAMA DHARMA TO HELP ME advance my KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Not the

other way around.

 

I want to serve Krsna through my sva-dharma. I work everyday to become focused

on that exclusively. I have spent the better part of my 26 years in ISKCON, or

"out", advocating implementation of varnasrama-dharma. I shall continue.

 

 

 

 

"Ask not what varnasrama-dharma can do for you, ask what you can

> do for varnasrama."

 

I like it!

 

 

> Please forgive me if I've offended you, but I really can't stand to hear

> devotees talk about themselves in such hopeless terms.

 

 

No one can offend me. They can bug the hell out of me sometimes but never

offend me.

 

 

I remain HOPEFULLY,

your fallen servant,

Janesvara dasa.

[Guest guest]

On 24 May 1999, Srila Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> Some "spicy" food for thought (I understand hot pickle is good for digestion

in small quantities),

>

> Srila dasa

 

 

Fortunately for us the chanting of the Hare Krsna Mantra, as recommended by

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is the most powerful of antacids.

 

Ultimately all things auspicious will come about from a change of heart, and

the Hare Krsna Mantra is the catalyst for all things auspicious in Kali Yuga.

 

ys,

 

Sthita