Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

At 14:46 -0800 5/2/99, COM: Gokula das (New Nandagram - AU) wrote:

 

 

>If this is so why did Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur write the Sri Krsna

>Bhajanamrta

 

Does anyone have electronic versions of the relevant passages to share?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani

[Guest guest]

> >If this is so why did Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur write the Sri Krsna

> >Bhajanamrta

>

> Does anyone have electronic versions of the relevant passages to share?

 

Here is at least a part of the Krsna-Bhajanamrta.

 

®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam

 

by ®r…la Narahari S€rkara µh€kura

 

Translated by: ®r… Jayapat€k€ Swami

Sanskrit/Bengali Editing by: ®r… Subhaga Swami

 

"Narahari was the fortieth (branch of the Caitanya tree)."

 

Purport by ®r…la Prabhup€da:

 

"Narahari d€sa S€rkara was a very famous devotee. Locana d€sa µh€kura, the

celebrated author of Caitanya-ma‰gala, was his disciple. In Caitanya-ma‰gala

it is stated that ®r… Gad€dhara D€sa and Narahari S€rkara were extremely

dear to ®r… Caitanya Mah€prabhu..."

 

®r… Caitanya-carit€mta (šdi-l…l€ Chapter 10)

 

 

500 copies printed by the Sydney Farm Contact Sa‰k…rtana Party with due

thanks and acknowledgment to

 

The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust

 

 

Introduction

 

The ®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam is the original work of ®r… Narahari S€rkara

µh€kura, the famous devotee who offered Lord Caitanya the personal service

of fanning with c€mara. The ®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam is possibly the only

known book which deals with practical aspects of dealings between the

disciple and guru including when the guru falls down. Therefore ®r…

KŠa-bhajan€mtam is very timely for better understanding the authorized

manner in which to deal with sensitive issues regarding initiating gurus and

ika-gurus. H.H. Bhakti C€ru Swami informed me of the existence of this

book and without his encouragement we would not have endeavored to locate

it.

The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, which ®r…la Prabhup€da founded for

preserving the Gau…ya VaiŠava Samprad€ya culture and heritage, in addition

to promoting it's unity and mutual cooperation, has been researching lost

shrines and holy places for nearly a decade. The newest project is to locate

lost or out of print literatures in original language and to publish

reference copies for use of s€dhus and scholars around the world. The ®r…

KŠa-bhajan€mtam is the first book located in this new project.

The ®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam was only printed once as far as is known, in the

Bengali year 1309, which brings it to the late 19th century. Only 95 copies

were printed and has therefore been out of print and unavailable for quite

some time, but with research the last known copy was located at ®r… Khanda,

the birthplace of ®r… Narahari µh€kura, in torn and blackened condition;

even the threads in the binding had turned to dust. By Lord Caitanya's mercy

the book was loaned to the BSCT. for re-publishing and translation.

The ®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam is 64 pages long, but only the first 16 pages

deal with guru-tattva. The remaining part of the book deals with

sambandha-tattva in regard to Lord KŠa's expansions, energies, demigods,

etc. Since ISKCON, at present, specifically needs €stric direction in

regard to some aspects of guru-tattva the verses 27-67, which deal

specifically with the subject matter of guru-tattva and VaiŠava

relationships, are being presented.

Although the first 19 verses simply form the introduction to the book, they

are also included, since they help the reader to get a clearer understanding

of the background to it and ®r… Narahari µh€kura's purpose in writing ®r…

KŠa-bhajan€mtam. Verses 19-26 give the explanation of topics which the

book covers, other than guru-tattva, so they are not included.

 

 

®r… KŠa-bhajan€mtam

by ®r…la Narahari S€rkara µh€kura

 

Verse 1

I offer my respectful obeisances to that incarnation of Godhead who has

distributed more unlimited causeless mercy than any other avat€ra. He is the

total Lord of my life-®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu.

 

Verse 2

I offer my respectful obeisances to ®r… ®ukadeva Gosv€m… who is like the

ripened fruit of the tree of devotional service. He is eternally relishing

in the transcendental mellows in devotional service.

 

Verses 3-4

During this Kali-yuga, when the time of Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu

and Lord ®r… Nity€nanda Prabhus' transcendental pastimes become unmanifest,

Their Lordships become the object of transcendental research and discussion.

At that time all level of devotees including uttama-adhik€r…,

madhyama-adhik€r… and kani˜ha-adhik€r… shall always be in anxiety and it

will be at all times. They shall almost feel uncertainty in their hearts

regarding the correct understanding of the eternal truths of devotional

service.

 

Verses 5-6

I offer my respectful obeisances in full surrender to the thousands and

thousands of previous VaiŠavas and particularly to those paramahaˆsas,

perfect souls, who meditate constantly in pure loving devotion on the lotus

feet of Lord ®r… Caitanya Mah€prabhu and by His mercy are studying all of

the Vedic literature in regard to devotional service. Following in the

footsteps of these great spiritual authorities I shall explain the clear,

transparent conclusions of the scriptures in their concise, condensed form,

with some detailed explanations.

 

Verse 7

I, Narahari D€sa, consider myself to be a fool. Therefore, how will I be

able to explain this most difficult subject matter on the absolute

conclusions of the €stra? Will the learned VaiŠavas bless my deliberations

that they may not be false or deviate from the authorized conclusions of the

€stra in any respect.

 

Verse 8

In any case, whether someone has all good qualities or whether one has no

good qualities, whether one is a fool or whether one is a great paŠita; who

is there in this material world who is able to completely understand pure

devotional service to KŠa?

 

Verse 9

In my sleep while dreaming I said the above words. While dreaming I was

meditating upon the words of previous authorities and great VaiŠava €c€ryas

and their conclusions on the authorized €stra in regard to pure devotional

service. While thus engaged in my dream suddenly my heart became filled with

spiritual bliss as if I had entered and taken shelter of an ocean of

transcendental nectar.

 

Verses 10-11

Just at that time Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu appeared holding the

hand of Sarvabhauma Bha˜˜€c€rya. Lord Caitanya said, "s€dhu, s€dhu." As Lord

Caitanya said these words He was laughing and He came and stood before me

saying, "What you have said is certainly true. Now awaken and arise." Saying

these words again and again Lord Caitanya disappeared from my vision.

 

Verse 12

Thereafter, meditating on the lotus feet of Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya

Mah€prabhu who is known as Gaurahari, I got up from my bed and I was feeling

great separation being deprived of His transcendental association, I

considered my unqualified self blessed by Lord Caitanya's causeless mercy

upon me.

 

Verse 13

Feeling myself blessed by the mercy of Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu

and remembering His merciful words, while being absorbed in the remembrance

of His transcendental glories I was immersed in an ocean of transcendental

bliss. At that time I could not understand my actual condition.

 

Verse 14

On the strength of the mercy of Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu I have

decided to write something. Using my intelligence I have considered the

truth of devotional service and although considering myself a fool I have

written in my own hand, sometimes in verse and sometimes in prose, this

supremely auspicious "Bhajan€mta."

 

Verse 15

In this Kali-yuga the great paramahaˆsa perfect devotees who have descended

to this universe in order to purify it have blessed me with their remnants

which I have accepted. As I am strictly following in the footsteps of these

liberated souls this work is completely purified with their blessings.

 

Verse 16

At the outset of this work my humble prayer is that all pure, non-envious

devotees of Lord ®r… KŠa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, may listen

to these authorized words as I have heard them from the great VaiŠava

authorities of the disciplic succession.

 

Verse 17

It is well known from the authorized Vedic literatures that in this

Kali-yuga, through the power of the holy name of Lord ®r… KŠa, all

VaiŠavas are equal and qualitatively non-different from Lord KŠa.

However, it is seen that amongst the VaiŠavas that sometimes in some places

some VaiŠavas appear greater or lesser. In such cases how is it to be

understood?

 

Verse 18

Amongst all of the assembled VaiŠavas there is the initiating guru and the

instructing guru. In regard to them what type of behavior is authorized?

 

Verses 19-27

not included (see introduction)

 

Verse 28

Now listen to the authorized conclusion of the previous authorities.

 

Verse 29

It is certainly true that all VaiŠavas are on the same transcendental

platform. However, although amongst VaiŠavas there may be a difference in

spiritual strength, how will the less intelligent materially attached

sense-gratifiers, who become afraid justly by seeing the horrifying

appearance of beggar mendicants, ascertain the actual strength of a saintly

person? Since they cannot distinguish between a lesser spiritual force and a

greater spiritual force, they do not know how to deal appropriately with

different saintly persons. Therefore, they treat everyone the same. Since

they don't know how to distinguish the specific character of greater

spiritual personalities from lesser spiritual personalities, rather than

risk their destruction for neglecting a potentially spiritual personality,

they treat everyone on the same level.

 

Verse 30

However, all those practicing VaiŠavas progressing on the path of

devotional service, who have heard and understood the conclusion of the

revealed €stras and are therefore endowed with special intelligence, are

able to recognize who is more spiritually powerful and who is less

spiritually powerful. Those who are expert in the science of devotional

service can understand in whose body what quantity of KŠa's spiritual

potency is present. Being able to understand who has less spiritual potency

and who has more spiritual potency, they offer special treatment considering

the scriptural injunctions in this regard.

 

Verse 31

If one can distinguish between the greater or lesser spiritual strength of a

person but does not accordingly offer respect, then that person shall be

held guilty for that offense.

 

Verse 32

For the reason mentioned before, if two VaiŠavas come at the same time, one

of greater strength, one of lesser spiritual strength, first one has to

offer respect to the VaiŠava of greater strength then offer to the VaiŠava

of lesser strength.

 

Verse 33

Should the respect due to a VaiŠava of greater strength or to a VaiŠava of

lesser strength be offered at the same level if they come at a different

time? Equal respect should not be offered to both even if they are not

present at the same time.

 

Verse 34

If a volcano type of fire is burning, the wise man will not first put out

............... first one has to be able to extinguish the volcano fire then

a candle of deep light can easily be extinguished. Similarly if one is able

to appropriately receive and respect VaiŠavas possessed of great spiritual

force to their satisfaction, then one shall easily be able to satisfy those

VaiŠavas of lesser potency.

 

Verse 35

If a person of small spiritual advancement sees a great devotee endowed with

considerable spiritual potency being worshipped and given respect, should

the less advanced person become angry upon seeing this? For this offense

against the more advanced person's spiritual position the foolish offender

will ruin whatever spiritual potency he possesses. Subsequently, in the

future, such angry persons simply plan how they can punish those who have

participated in such worship.

 

Verse 36

Those who are well-versed in all of these matters, having heard properly

from authorities, those VaiŠavas who are enthusiastically engaged in

worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead and all those

transcendentalists who are practicing the spiritual path, know the truths in

regard to these matters. However, in spite of knowing these truths, if they

do not appropriately offer worship to a greater or lesser degree, according

to the person's spiritual potency, then they will be spiritually ruined.

However, if they consider the respective spiritual strength or lack of

strength and accordingly offer respect then they will certainly advance in

KŠa Consciousness.

 

Verse 37

For those who take shelter of the great Sumeru mountain what can others do

to harm them? Others should offer them worship as devotees with respect and

service.

 

Verse 38

One should never engage in criticizing a VaiŠava or neglecting a VaiŠava

even in joking. For VaiŠavas are so glorious that there is nothing to

regret even if one sacrifices one's life for their benefit.

 

Verse 39

No one should find fault with a VaiŠava for his activities or behavior.

What person is free from the influence of Kali-yuga or has perfect pure

behavior and action?

 

Verse 40

Because the VaiŠava devotees of the Lord are always meditating on Lord ®r…

KŠa the contamination of sinful activities cannot come upon them. Because

a VaiŠava's body has the fire of KŠa consciousness within it, even if

they are fallen, this fire of KŠa consciousness will burn up to ashes any

material contamination.

 

Verse 41

However, those who are not able to understand the respective levels of

spiritual potency may take shelter of this example. As in the Ganges there

are many waves, and some of these waves are larger then other waves but all

of the waves are considered to be sacred, one wave being not considered more

holy than another wave, similarly, all types of VaiŠavas, those who are

spiritually strong and those who are not so strong, can be offered equal

worship. Considering this perspective in such circumstances that can be

accepted as perfect worship.

Here completes the conclusion in this regard.

 

Verse 42

All VaiŠavas are considered as guru or spiritual master.

 

Verse 43

Amongst all of the VaiŠavas the initiating guru (dik€-guru) and

instructing guru (ika-guru) are special.

 

Verse 44

It is proper to offer these two special respect.

 

Verse 45

Amongst all of the other spiritual masters these two (dik€-guru and

ika-guru) spiritual masters' orders are to be followed.

 

Verse 46

If one's initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual master are of

small spiritual potency, or in other words, if they do not possess a special

power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then

one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced VaiŠavas and

understand the special instructions. However, thereafter, the disciple must

go to his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.

 

Verse 47

One should not disobey the order of the spiritual master.

 

Verse 48

Just as a faithful son may go out for earning money and subsequently brings

to his father the wealth gained, later the son may ask for some allowance

from the father and whatever he receives from the father he is entitled to

spend for his own enjoyment. Similarly, a disciple may hear some

instructions from another advanced VaiŠava but after gaining that good

instruction he must bring it and present it to his own spiritual master.

After presenting them he should hear the same teachings again from his

spiritual master with appropriate instructions.

 

Verse 49

If the son earns money but does not give it to the father and instead,

directly enjoys the wealth, he is considered to be a fallen son and a sinful

person. Similarly, a disciple who listens to the words of other VaiŠavas,

even if their instructions are proper and true, but does not reconfirm these

teachings with his own spiritual master and instead directly personally

accepts these instructions, is considered a bad disciple and a sinner.

 

Verse 50

For this reason, in all circumstances all VaiŠavas are offered respect like

one offers respect to one's spiritual master. However, with body, mind and

words one serves one's own spiritual master.

 

Verse 51

Even if in the performance of one's devotional activities one has disobeyed

the spiritual master, still one should not give him up, but should remain

faithfully with him, because all authorities say that the shelter of one's

own spiritual master is best and perfect (even if another spiritual master

is more powerful).

 

Verse 52

Kindly understand this example:

Just as one respects one's father as a guru, his (the father's) older and

younger brothers are also similarly respected, but nonetheless, the father

is worthy of the most respect. Not withstanding the above, if the father's

guru, even if he is family related, comes, one should double the respect, as

he is the spiritual father of the father, or the guru of the guru. He is

offered twice the p™j€ or respect.

This behavior is recognized as appropriate by all authorities.

 

Verse 53

Just as if, during daily life, the brothers (older or younger) of the father

criticize him, still one takes shelter of one's father, similarly, one

remains under the shelter of one's own spiritual master, even if he is

criticized by his older or younger Godbrothers. Just as one depends upon

one's father for one's livelihood, one must depend upon the strength and

shelter of the spiritual master for advancing in devotional service.

 

Verse 54

If a father or spiritual master or husband are not possessed of outstanding

qualities even then they are always worshipable.

 

Verse 55

Taking shelter of the above-mentioned persons one may even disagree with

those senior to oneself.

 

Verse 56

In this world, what kind of person is there who can remain alive at the

expense of his father's or guru's defamation or disgrace?

 

Verse 57

Everyone considers that if their spiritual master is very powerful then he

himself is powerful but that if his spiritual master is less powerful, then

he is, therefore, weaker, and according to the attitude of the spiritual

master the disciple gains the same attributes. Those disciples who are

intelligent can understand the desires of the spiritual master directly

through their intelligence. Other disciples, who are less intelligent,

understand by directly hearing instructions from the spiritual master. These

activities are being practiced since time immemorial.

 

Verse 58

Learned VaiŠava authorities say that these instructions are the perfection

of religiosity.

 

Verse 59

If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking VaiŠava regulative

principles then in that case one should, in a solitary place, confront him

for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from s€dhu,

€stra, and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

 

Verse 60

One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or

challenging a spiritual master.

"For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a

spiritual master who is:

- bewildered about what he should or shouldn't do;

- who is inexperienced or ignorant;

- who has deviated from the KŠa conscious path;

- or if he is bewildered by false pride."

 

Verse 61

This statement of the revealed scriptures is applicable at all times and

under all circumstances.

 

Verse 62

The natural behavior of the VaiŠava devotees is to take complete refuge of

Lord ®r… Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, accepting Him as their

principal and real shelter. The very life of the VaiŠava devotees of the

Lord is singing the glories or Lord ®r… KŠa, describing and expanding the

fame of Lord ®r… KŠa, and discussing the nectar of His transcendental

pastimes.

 

Verse 63

The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with one's

prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through instructions

from the VaiŠavas, as all VaiŠavas are considered guru or "spiritual

master", or one may use one's own intelligence, duly considering the

relevant instructions from s€dhu, €stra and guru. In all cases one should

continue in one's devotional service.

 

Verse 64

However, if the spiritual master:

- acts enviously towards '…varebrantaƒ', that which is connected with the

Supreme;

- is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead;

- is averse to expanding the fame of Lord KŠa;

- personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious

pastimes of Lord ®r… KŠa;

- has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant

persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen-then the

spiritual master must be renounced.

 

Verse 65

Under those circumstances one should not doubt, "How can I give up my

spiritual master?" With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional

service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord KŠa, the Supreme Personality

of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master as the via

media to Lord ®r… KŠa. However, after accepting the responsibility of

serving the spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on "asuric"

qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is one's duty to reject such a

demon "asura" guru and in his place accept a KŠa conscious spiritual

master and worship him.

 

Verse 66

By taking shelter of the strength of the KŠa conscious spiritual master's

devotional service the ill effects or contamination of the demoniac previous

spiritual master is counteracted and destroyed. These activities are

recommended by all VaiŠava authorities as the authorized conclusion of the

€stra.

 

Verse 67

During the pastimes of Lord ®r… KŠa Caitanya Mah€prabhu there have been

many practical examples of the above.

 

This concludes the deliberation and final conclusions of s€dhu, €stra and

guru on the spiritual master and related matters.

[Guest guest]

"COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2285745 from COM]

>

> > If this is so why did Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur write the Sri Krsna

> > Bhajanamrta

>

> Valid point. Do you think that the gurus who fell down used to be bona fide

> but then fell down? Is that possible according to Sri Krsna Bhajanamrta? I

> have read the chapter where it is explained what to do if the guru looks

> like he is fallen, and how to ultimately reject him.

>

> My point is that I wonder whether such a guru ever was bona fide. What I

> meant with:

>

> "It is unheard of in the history of our parampara, a bona fide guru cannot

> fall down, which means that my spiritual master was never in "good standing"

> as a guru."

>

> was that I believe that a bona fide guru never can fall down, only one who

> never was bona fide.

>

> Ys

> Jkd

 

Couple of things.

 

One thing is our concept of time, which is linear. We see a beginning,

moving

through the middle , and then an end. So we think that whatever the state at

the end is, that is the bottom line. Yet spiritual life is not dependent on

time. So who says that our level of spiritual advancement is based on what we

see at our point of timeline alone? Maybe Krsna sees what the peak was as the

achievement, and is less concerned about when that peak was. If there is a

flood, the determination of the height of the flood is where it reached, not

what the water level is whne we get around to coming to measure it. Srila

Prabhupada needed some devotees to help spread, so maybe Krsna messed with the

timeline a little and put the most advanced portion of a devotee's life in the

middle instead of where it would normally be, the end. What to speak of , we

haven't yet seen where these fallen gurus could end..

 

Certainly with Kirtanananda, he needed a lesson in humility to have the whole

package, so his life isn't over so who are we to be too judgemental? Of

course, at this time no one should be advised to take diksa from him as he is

now. But I am not sure that his current state invalidates his previous good

times.

 

Of course, I fully acknowledge the above to be mental speculation, and don't

tie your spiritual life to it. Just a thought.

 

Second, the paranpara is a via medium to conduct Krsna consciousness, just

like a copper wire transmitts electricity. Suppose you are in a dark room,

and

someone gives you a frayed cord to plug your lamp into. You recieve light,

and

now can see that in the room your are in, there are so many outlets. Then you

see some sparking in the cord you have been given, and realise it would be

dangerous to continue to use it. So you use a different outlet. Does that

meant that the light you first recieved wasn't bona fide? It is the

electricity

that is important, not the cord.

 

The purity of the devotion of a guru is one thing, but the connection he gives

is another. If Robert now has fallen, then as a siksa guru for you he is

inappropriate, but still, he did bring you to Krsna Conssciousness, and that

can't be taken away.

 

I think of the diksa as like a license examiner, who certifies that you are

capable of driving a car, and know all the safety rules. If that examiner

certifies your license, that doesn't mean he owns the road you drive on , or

has some power to tell you where to drive. If later, he himself goes out and

drives while drunk and speds and crashes, then he is not be considered a good

siksa, but your license is not invalidated.

 

So you owe Robert a debt for bringing you to Krsna, and that debt is eternal,

but Srila Prabhupada is there as siksa for you, and I hope other devotees

also.

 

As far as the never fall down kind of guru, great if you can find one, but a

blind uncle is better than no uncle.

 

Third, not every diksa guru is an acarya, but I feel a little uncomfortable

going there in explanation because all that can get a little technical and I

don't feel qualified to speak about that in detail. Just that a lot of what

gets thrown in the the guru discusssion is about acaryas and there is some

difference.

[Guest guest]

>Madhava Gosh wrote:

>I think of the diksa as like a license examiner, who certifies that you are

>capable of driving a car, and know all the safety rules. If that examiner

>certifies your license, that doesn't mean he owns the road you drive on , or

>has some power to tell you where to drive. If later, he himself goes out and

>drives while drunk and speds and crashes, then he is not be considered a good

>siksa, but your license is not invalidated.

 

What a wonderful analogy. As long as your driving teacher taught you the

proper rules of the road at the time of instruction, his later behavior is

irrelevant. And you don't need to go through the process of getting a new

licence, just continue to learn about (and keep up) good driving habits.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> >Madhava Gosh wrote:

> >I think of the diksa as like a license examiner, ...... If later, he

himself goes out and

> >drives while drunk and speds and crashes, then he is not be considered a

good

> >siksa, but your license is not invalidated.

>

> What a wonderful analogy. As long as your driving teacher taught you the

> proper rules of the road at the time of instruction, his later behavior is

> irrelevant. And you don't need to go through the process of getting a new

> licence, just continue to learn about (and keep up) good driving habits.

 

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

 

Now wait a minute....

How can this Madhava Gosh be giving us this high philosophy when he was

chanting the "F" word and other choice English language derivatives to our

Great White North friend just a while ago? ;-)

 

 

You guru you, Gosh.

[Guest guest]

> Couple of things.

>

> One thing is our concept of time, which is linear. We see a beginning,

> moving through the middle , and then an end. So we think that whatever

> the state at the end is, that is the bottom line. Yet spiritual life is

> not dependent on time. So who says that our level of spiritual

> advancement is based on what we see at our point of timeline alone?

> Maybe Krsna sees what the peak was as the achievement, and is less

> concerned about when that peak was. If there is a flood, the

> determination of the height of the flood is where it reached, not what

> the water level is whne we get around to coming to measure it. Srila

> Prabhupada needed some devotees to help spread, so maybe Krsna messed

> with the timeline a little and put the most advanced portion of a

> devotee's life in the middle instead of where it would normally be, the

> end. What to speak of , we haven't yet seen where these fallen gurus

> could end..

>

> Certainly with Kirtanananda, he needed a lesson in humility to have the

> whole package, so his life isn't over so who are we to be too

> judgemental? Of course, at this time no one should be advised to take

> diksa from him as he is now. But I am not sure that his current state

> invalidates his previous good times.

>

> Of course, I fully acknowledge the above to be mental speculation, and

> don't tie your spiritual life to it. Just a thought.

 

All of these thoughts are worth noting, no question. We cannot know who

these devotees actually are, and whether they are actually advanced devotees

or not. So we should be careful with criticizing them too much, because that

may be dangerous.

 

> Second, the paranpara is a via medium to conduct Krsna consciousness,

> just like a copper wire transmitts electricity. Suppose you are in a dark

> room, and someone gives you a frayed cord to plug your lamp into. You

> recieve light, and now can see that in the room your are in, there are so

> many outlets. Then you see some sparking in the cord you have been given,

> and realise it would be dangerous to continue to use it. So you use a

> different outlet. Does that meant that the light you first recieved

> wasn't bona fide? It is the electricity that is important, not the cord.

 

That sounds like it makes sense. But the principle is that you always need a

working outlet in order to get electricity.

 

> The purity of the devotion of a guru is one thing, but the connection he

> gives is another. If Robert now has fallen, then as a siksa guru for you

> he is inappropriate, but still, he did bring you to Krsna

> Conssciousness, and that can't be taken away.

 

True. I will always be greatful to him for that. But I have to admit that I

do not feel that I made any advancement after taking initiation from him.

>From that time, I slowly lost my inspiration for some reason. He did give me

a lot of the inspiration to take spiritual life very seriously, though, but

I felt that most of that inspiration came before I became initiated.

 

> I think of the diksa as like a license examiner, who certifies that you

> are capable of driving a car, and know all the safety rules. If that

> examiner certifies your license, that doesn't mean he owns the road you

> drive on , or has some power to tell you where to drive. If later, he

> himself goes out and drives while drunk and speds and crashes, then he is

> not be considered a good siksa, but your license is not invalidated.

 

Could be a good analogy, but what if he is wrong? What if I was initiated

prematurely? I don't think I am the only one who feels like that... That is

like a driving teacher who gives you the license before you learn to drive.

Is that bona fide?

 

> So you owe Robert a debt for bringing you to Krsna, and that debt is

> eternal, but Srila Prabhupada is there as siksa for you, and I hope

> other devotees also.

 

Sure.

 

> As far as the never fall down kind of guru, great if you can find one,

> but a blind uncle is better than no uncle.

 

Maybe. I would prefer to have an uncle who can see when he is supposed to

guide me to Krishna. I don't want to fall in the ditch because of following

the wrong guru. To fall in the ditch, I am perfectly able to do on my own.

:-)

 

> Third, not every diksa guru is an acarya, but I feel a little

> uncomfortable going there in explanation because all that can get a little

> technical and I don't feel qualified to speak about that in detail. Just

> that a lot of what gets thrown in the the guru discusssion is about

> acaryas and there is some difference.

 

I think you are right. Thank you for your intelligent letter.

[Guest guest]

>

> (Maybe I should change it into it anyway. "MB" also may stand for

> "Mercedes Benz", and that's really an uttama-car.)

>

> ys mnd

 

LOL.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Jatukarnya das wrote:

 

>

> That is the general idea in ISKCON, but I am still not sure whether it is

correct when it comes to guru.

>

 

Thus, the siksa relationship is more significant. Getting the drivers liscence

is simply a preliminary formality in the analogy given. This could be taken as

a minimum requirement for driving on the road.

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > Second, the paranpara is a via medium to conduct Krsna consciousness,

> > just like a copper wire transmitts electricity. Suppose you are in a dark

> > room, and someone gives you a frayed cord to plug your lamp into. You

> > recieve light, and now can see that in the room your are in, there are so

> > many outlets. Then you see some sparking in the cord you have been given,

> > and realise it would be dangerous to continue to use it. So you use a

> > different outlet. Does that meant that the light you first recieved

> > wasn't bona fide? It is the electricity that is important, not the cord.

>

> That sounds like it makes sense. But the principle is that you always need a

> working outlet in order to get electricity.

 

Of course, every analogy breaks down at some point, but we can see that

occasionally Krsna sends an acarya along. Maybe the acarya would be like the

outlets? Not that every initiation that has ever happened in our line has been

done by an acarya, but they seem to come along often enough so Krsna is still

available some how or other.

 

>

> True. I will always be greatful to him for that. But I have to admit that I

> do not feel that I made any advancement after taking initiation from him.

> >From that time, I slowly lost my inspiration for some reason. He did give me

> a lot of the inspiration to take spiritual life very seriously, though, but

> I felt that most of that inspiration came before I became initiated.

 

The Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross may shed some light on

that

if you feel comfortable with literature outside the movement.

 

It used to be preached that initially , Krsna gives you a taste , a free

sample of what spiritual life can be, but then you have to work for it. Just

like in marriage, first there is a honeymoon, then comes the long years of

sacrifice to raise a family. The way we feel about our spirituality is not

necessarily the best barometer of our actual progress.

 

But I hear you. Although initiated by Srila Prabhupada, I spent most of my

career under the management of Kirtanananda, and understand your frustration.

 

>

>

> > I think of the diksa as like a license examiner, who certifies that you

> > are capable of driving a car, and know all the safety rules. If that

> > examiner certifies your license, that doesn't mean he owns the road you

> > drive on , or has some power to tell you where to drive. If later, he

> > himself goes out and drives while drunk and speds and crashes, then he is

> > not be considered a good siksa, but your license is not invalidated.

>

> Could be a good analogy, but what if he is wrong? What if I was initiated

> prematurely? I don't think I am the only one who feels like that... That is

> like a driving teacher who gives you the license before you learn to drive.

> Is that bona fide?

 

You either pass the test or not. To work within the confines of the analogy,

your question might be rephrased, if I bribe an official to give me a license

without taking the test, is that bona fide? Or in otherwords, was the alleged

gurus offering me initiation due to my being ready for it, or was he simply a

professinal recitor of Bhagavatam who was making his living doing some

showbottle

guru business? Frankly, I don't think that with philosophy or logic you will

ever get a real black and white answer. It is ultimeately a question of your

own

consciousness.

 

The following quote has nothing to do with this, but I was looking for

something

else and stumbled on it so thought it might be amusing to post.

 

This verse describes the paramahamsa stage of life, in which there is no

further

need for rituals, external paraphernalia or rules and regulations. A completely

realized jnana-yogi pursuing liberation, or beyond that, a perfect devotee of

the

Lord who does not desire even liberation, has no further desire for material

engagement. When one completely purifies the mind, there is no possibility of

sinful behavior. Rules and regulations are meant for guiding those who have a

tendency to act in ignorance or for personal gratification, but one who is

perfect in spiritual consciousness can move freely, as described here by the

Lord. One who tends to drive a car recklessly or who is unfamiliar with the

local

road conditions certainly needs the discipline of elaborate road signs and

police

enforcement of traffic laws. A perfectly safe driver, however, is thoroughly

familiar with the local road conditions. He has no real need for the

enforcement

officials or the speed limits and caution signs meant for those unfamiliar with

the road. A pure devotee of the Lord desires nothing except service to the

Lord;

he automatically fulfills the purport of all negative and positive injunctions,

which is to always remember Krsna and never forget Him. One should not,

however,

artificially imitate the exalted position of a paramahamsa devotee, for such

imitation will quickly ruin one's spiritual career.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.18.28

[Guest guest]

>

> > p.s. Just read Madhva Gosh's comments. Prabhu you are a sadhu and very

> > down to earth, What great analogies.

>

> I agree that his anologies are good. When Gosh speaks, I listen.

>

> Ys

> Jkd

 

Why, just hearing those comments has been very good for me. I am already

calculating how many disciples I could initiate and how much daksine per

each.....

[Guest guest]

At 2:24 -0800 5/4/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

wrote:

>So how does one know whether a guru is actually authorized or not? According

>to GBC, it is enough that one has reached a certain age, and has not had a

>falldown in a certain time period, and that at least 3 GBC's reccomend such

>a person as being guru. Is that really the way to judge a guru's

>qualification? I just wonder. My conviction while reading Srila Prabhupada's

>books has always been that the guru is supposed to be someone really

>special, a person who can actually give you Krishna. A person who gives you

>mercy, and who genuinely makes you attracted by Krishna and inspires you to

>get rid of the impurities in your heart.

 

Those are excellent questions. My understanding is that the Guru disciple

relationship is very personal and can not be institutionalized. If you're

fortunate enough to meet someone who inspires you in spiritual life to such

a degree that you want him/her to be your guru, and s/he in turn accepts

you as his/her disciple, he or she *is* your guru. That requires no

legislation. However to be your *ISKCON* guru, they also have to be

approved by the ISKCON ultimate managing authority, who has certain minimum

criteria.

 

That's why consumer education is so important. We need to know how to judge

and what to look for in a prospective guru. It can't just be someone who

gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>There is absolutely no question in my heart that anyone's link to the

>parampara, leading all the way back through 31 bonafide acaryas to Lord Krsna

>Himself,

 

I've been meaning to ask someone about this. The first time I read that

list, I became confused because there were so *few* names on a list that

was supposed to go back such thousands of years. I haven't thought about it

much since, because there always are so many other issues around. However,

now seems like as good a time as any: Are these the only *bonafide*

acaryas in our disciplic succession? Does that mean that the others in

between, who are not listed, were not bonafide? Or were these the *most*

important ones, and others are bonafide too? Or what's the deal?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

What does LOL mean?

 

ys

hkdd

 

"COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2289262 from COM]

>

> >

> > (Maybe I should change it into it anyway. "MB" also may stand for

> > "Mercedes Benz", and that's really an uttama-car.)

> >

> > ys mnd

>

> LOL.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

 

> >There is absolutely no question in my heart that anyone's link to the

> >parampara, leading all the way back through 31 bonafide acaryas to Lord

Krsna

> >Himself,

 

 

 

> I've been meaning to ask someone about this. The first time I read that

> list, I became confused because there were so *few* names on a list that

> was supposed to go back such thousands of years. I haven't thought about it

> much since, because there always are so many other issues around. However,

> now seems like as good a time as any: Are these the only *bonafide*

> acaryas in our disciplic succession? Does that mean that the others in

> between, who are not listed, were not bonafide? Or were these the *most*

> important ones, and others are bonafide too? Or what's the deal?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

 

 

 

 

I believe there has been some further commentation on the list. I find it most

inspiring and chant each name every morning from memory.

 

But I also know that in the same Bhagavad-gita Srila Prabhupada has stated

that Arjuna is the beginning of the parampara, yet he is not listed. Also

between some of those gurus listed were all of the mahajanas who obviously

were bonafide gurus.

 

I am interested in more info on this also.

[Guest guest]

"COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2289462 from COM]

>

> What does LOL mean?

>

> ys

> hkdd

 

Laugh Out Loud

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I believe there has been some further commentation on the list. I find it

most

> inspiring and chant each name every morning from memory.

>

> But I also know that in the same Bhagavad-gita Srila Prabhupada has stated

> that Arjuna is the beginning of the parampara, yet he is not listed. Also

> between some of those gurus listed were all of the mahajanas who obviously

> were bonafide gurus.

>

> I am interested in more info on this also.

 

Must be like a highlights film. Also, it is instructive to note that the list

is

a siksa disciplic succession and not diksa, as I believe I have been told.

[Guest guest]

Here is a reference to a madyama adhikari being a spiritual master.

 

TRANSLATION

"When Parvata Muni saw the ecstatic loving symptoms of the hunter, he told

Narada, ‘Certainly you are a touchstone.'

PURPORT

When a touchstone touches iron, it turns the iron to gold. Parvata Muni called

Narada Muni a touchstone because by his touch the hunter, who was the lowest

among men, became an elevated and perfect Vaisnava. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

said that the position of a Vaisnava can be tested by seeing how good a

touchstone he is -- that is, by seeing how many Vaisnavas he has made during

his

life. A Vaisnava should be a touchstone so that he can convert others to

Vaisnavism by his preaching, even though people may be fallen like the hunter.

There are many so-called advanced devotees who sit in a secluded place for

their

personal benefit. They do not go out to preach and convert others into

Vaisnavas, and therefore they certainly cannot be called sparsa-mani, advanced

devotees. Kanistha-adhikari devotees cannot turn others into Vaisnavas, but a

madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can do so by preaching. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

advised His followers to increase the numbers of Vaisnavas.

yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

(Cc. Madhya 7.128)

It is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's wish that everyone should become a Vaisnava and

guru. Following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His disciplic

succession, one can become a spiritual master, for the process is very easy.

One

can go everywhere and anywhere to preach the instructions of Krsna. The

Bhagavad-gita is Krsna's instructions; therefore the duty of every Vaisnava is

to travel and preach the Bhagavad-gita, either in his country or a foreign

country. This is the test of sparsa-mani, following in the footsteps of Narada

Muni.

Madhya 24.278

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 24.278

[Guest guest]

Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahuti

The guru is one, because he does not speak differently from his predecessors

in

disciplic succession:

The Vedas enjoin us to seek out a guru; actually, they say to seek out the

guru,

not just a guru. The guru is one because he comes in disciplic succession. What

Vyasadeva and Krsna taught five thousand years ago is also being taught now.

There is no difference between the two instructions. Although hundreds and

thousands of acaryas have come and gone, the message is one. The real guru

cannot be two, for the real guru does not speak differently from his

predecessors. Some spiritual teachers say, "In my opinion you should do this,"

but this is not a guru. Such so-called gurus are simply rascals. The genuine

guru has only one opinion, and that is the opinion expressed by Krsna,

Vyasadeva, Narada, Arjuna, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Gosvamis. Five

thousand years ago Lord Sri Krsna spoke the Bhagavad-gita, and Vyasadeva

recorded it. Srila Vyasadeva did not say, "This is my opinion." Rather, he

wrote, sri-bhagavan uvaca, that is, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead says."

Whatever Vyasadeva wrote was originally spoken by the Supreme Personality of

Godhead. Srila Vyasadeva did not give his own opinion.

Consequently, Srila Vyasadeva is a guru. He does not misinterpret the words of

Krsna, but transmits them exactly as they were spoken. If we send a telegram,

the person who delivers the telegram does not have to correct it, edit it, or

add to it. He simply presents it. That is the guru's business. The guru may be

this person or that, but the message is the same; therefore it is said that

guru

is one.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SMD 2.3:The Qualifications and Characteristics of the

Spiritual Master

[Guest guest]

>

> I've been meaning to ask someone about this. The first time I read that

> list, I became confused because there were so *few* names on a list that

> was supposed to go back such thousands of years. I haven't thought about

> it much since, because there always are so many other issues around.

> However, now seems like as good a time as any: Are these the only

> *bonafide* acaryas in our disciplic succession? Does that mean that the

> others in between, who are not listed, were not bonafide? Or were these

> the *most* important ones, and others are bonafide too? Or what's the

> deal?

 

The explanation that I know for (from a devotee who is a scholarly

researcher in these matters) is that it was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Saraswati Thakura who compiled the list, putting on it the names

of the most famous Vaisnava acaryas of the time that would be

fitting in the line of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudhiya. The purpose of

such list is to rather make an impression than to show some

technically exact linage. Perhaps for the West that may not be

of some big meaning, but for the India's circumstances, especially

in the time when Bhaktisiddhanata started the campagne against the

influence of smarta-brahmanas, which names would be on the least meant

a lot.

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> What does LOL mean?

 

It means "Laugh out loud".

[Guest guest]

> Of course, every analogy breaks down at some point, but we can see that

> occasionally Krsna sends an acarya along. Maybe the acarya would be like

> the outlets? Not that every initiation that has ever happened in our line

> has been done by an acarya, but they seem to come along often enough so

> Krsna is still available some how or other.

 

It seems like there is almost always an acarya around, which is very

fortunate, and I am sure it is not by chance.

 

> > True. I will always be greatful to him for that. But I have to admit

> > that I do not feel that I made any advancement after taking initiation

> > from him.

> > >From that time, I slowly lost my inspiration for some reason. He did

> > >give me

> > a lot of the inspiration to take spiritual life very seriously, though,

> > but I felt that most of that inspiration came before I became initiated.

>

> The Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross may shed some light

> on that if you feel comfortable with literature outside the movement.

 

I have to admit that I do read litteratures outside the movement some times,

and I don't think I would have a problem with reading the book you advice me

to. Do you know how to get it?

 

> It used to be preached that initially , Krsna gives you a taste , a

> free sample of what spiritual life can be, but then you have to work for

> it. Just like in marriage, first there is a honeymoon, then comes the

> long years of sacrifice to raise a family. The way we feel about our

> spirituality is not necessarily the best barometer of our actual progress.

 

Makes sense.

 

> But I hear you. Although initiated by Srila Prabhupada, I spent most of

> my career under the management of Kirtanananda, and understand your

> frustration.

 

Thank you (a lot).

 

> > Could be a good analogy, but what if he is wrong? What if I was

> > initiated prematurely? I don't think I am the only one who feels like

> > that... That is like a driving teacher who gives you the license before

> > you learn to drive. Is that bona fide?

>

> You either pass the test or not. To work within the confines of the

> analogy, your question might be rephrased, if I bribe an official to give

> me a license without taking the test, is that bona fide? Or in

> otherwords, was the alleged gurus offering me initiation due to my being

> ready for it, or was he simply a professinal recitor of Bhagavatam who

> was making his living doing some showbottle guru business? Frankly, I

> don't think that with philosophy or logic you will ever get a real black

> and white answer. It is ultimeately a question of your own consciousness.

 

My own consciousness and conviction, I suppose. I just try to make it

straight to myself, and that's a reason why I ask for my friends' opinions

and understandings on this issue.

 

> The following quote has nothing to do with this, but I was looking for

> something else and stumbled on it so thought it might be amusing to post.

 

A very interesting quote.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> One thing more. Think about that Harikesa Maharaja (former)

> was named by Srila Prabhupada, along with 10 others, to carry

> on with initiating disciples after Prabhupada' soon departure.

> Thus your question "Was he ever bona fide" on that way

> may just well turn into calling in question Prabhupada's

> competency. Was Prabhupada in illusion about wether all

> those "elevens" were uttama-adhikaris, or did he make a

> deliberate blunder and violated sastric injunctions by

> authorizing non-uttama adhikaris into the position of

> initiating gurus in the line of Guru Parampara? Or

> something else.

>

> ys mnd

 

Personally, I think something else. I think he specifically named them as

rittvik gurus as sort of a back hand way of saying that they shouldn't be

diksa gurus, at least not as of that time. (Yes, that's right, I think

that famous letter was not a general instruction for all time, but a very

specific instruction for those very specific devotees). As we can see, 7 of

the 11 aren't around anymore, so that is a high percentage call.

 

Plus as we can see from another quote I posted, madhyamas can be gurus.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I have to admit that I do read litteratures outside the movement some times,

> and I don't think I would have a problem with reading the book you advice me

> to. Do you know how to get it?

 

Amazon.com has it. Any decent Catholic bookstore will have it.

 

Paperback (August 1997)

Hodder & Stoughton Pubs; ISBN: 0340422742

; Dimensions (in inches): 0.36 x 7.05 x 4.43

Other Editions: Paperback

 

Amazon.com Sales Rank: 231,919

Avg. Customer Review:

Number of Reviews: 2

 

Write an online review and share your

thoughts with other readers!

 

Reviews

Amazon.com

As a Carmelite monk, the 16th-century

Spanish mystic St. John of the Cross

was well trained in the systematic

theology of St. Thomas Aquinas. In Dark

Night of the Soul, St. John's sharply

organized mind gives clean shape to his

mystical belief in a loving Being

somewhere outside the realm of feeling,

thought, or imagination, who can only be

known through love. Dark Night

of the Soul describes the process of

purgation, first of senses, and then of

spirit, that precedes the soul's loving

Union with God. To quote from this

book would detract from the coiled power

of its tightly focused picture of the

soul's progress; suffice it to say that

there has never been a better book for

discouraged Christians. When you cannot

understand what or why you

believe, but you find yourself unable to

abandon faith, look to St. John for

help. --Michael Joseph Gross --This text

refers to the paperback edition

of this title

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

>

> Must be like a highlights film. Also, it is instructive to note that the

list is a siksa disciplic succession and not diksa, as I believe I have been

told.

>

>

 

 

Isn't it also true that some of these acaryas are not exactly working under

the jurisdiction of human earth time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

>

> The gurus are highly respected, and I am afraid that not all gurus took

> their position only due to a service attitude to Prabhupada. There are many

> benefits from being a guru in ISKCON, financially and comfort-wise. I see in

> ISKCON many gurus who have a lot of strong material qualitifications, and

> who undoubtedly have much more wealth and surrendered servants than what

> they could have expected to have if they would be bosses somewhere in

> material society.

>

> I don't suggest that to be the only reason why they accept the role as guru,

> but I think it may be there for many. And in ISKCON, we find many people who

> want to be humble and think nothing wrong about a guru. Thus the gurus can

> easily abuse their position, and even if they fall down, it does not have to

> mean that they have to leave their position, as long as they are not caught.

> And none of their disciples would believe that the guru ever fell down,

> unless it can be proven, and even then many hesitate as has been seen.

 

Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think any of these gurus consciously set out

to

do what they became. I give to them that they were sincere at the onset, but

power corrupts. That is inevitable law of material nature.

 

When the guru is not seen as a brahman, a teacher, but starts to act as a

ksatriya, an admistrator, taking power over devotees lives, that is a very

dangerous situation. Because VAD was only started, this clear separation has

never been made. That is another reason we need to finish implementing VAD.

Then there is a check and balance. Guru as king has been a very unsuccessful

experiment, so now we need to move on to another way of doing it.

 

I would advise anyone thinking of initiation to look close at a guru and see,

is he acting as teacher or administrator? Not what he says he is doing, but

what he/she is actually doing. It is one thing running a small math, or

school, but another when a larger community is involved. If we look at the 7

of 11 ( I feel like I'm going to a convenience store) who fell, I think that

the common thread is they were were involved in managing men and money on a

larger scale. Whether as vaisya or king, whatever, but as an interested

party

in the economic lives of their disciples, not as a disinterested mentor.

 

Guru as king. Bad.