Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2291769 from COM]

>

> On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Must be like a highlights film. Also, it is instructive to note that the

> list is a siksa disciplic succession and not diksa, as I believe I have been

> told.

> >

> >

>

> Isn't it also true that some of these acaryas are not exactly working under

> the jurisdiction of human earth time?

 

I think Narada pretty much falls under that category. Just see the power of

gourds!

[Guest guest]

> Here is a reference to a madyama adhikari being a spiritual master.

 

Thank you very much for the quote. I hate to be picky, but it does not say

specifically that a madhyama-adhikari can be a spiritual master, at least I

did not read that in the text. One can maybe say that it is stated

indirectly, though.

[Guest guest]

"COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2291892 from COM]

>

> > Here is a reference to a madyama adhikari being a spiritual master.

>

> Thank you very much for the quote. I hate to be picky, but it does not say

> specifically that a madhyama-adhikari can be a spiritual master, at least I

> did not read that in the text. One can maybe say that it is stated

> indirectly, though.

 

Yes, you are being picky.

 

I think over a long span of time, such as Srila Prabhupada's books are meant

for, many different permutations of guru will manifest, so too specific may

be right at one time and wrong at the next. If we try to get too narrow in our

definition of guru, we could miss out on a lot of opportunities.

 

The clear principle is that it takes acceptance of someone else other than just

our own mind to make spiritual advancement and connection. Details of which

kind of guru and what type of ritualistic relationships there are or how they

are sustained are all secondary to that.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I don't know anybody in ISCKON maikin such claim for himself.

>

> ys mnd

 

I don't know if Kirtanananda ever explicitly made such a claim but he

certainly implied it strongly.

[Guest guest]

> > I don't know anybody in ISCKON maikin such claim for himself.

> >

> > ys mnd

>

> I don't know if Kirtanananda ever explicitly made such a claim but he

> certainly implied it strongly.

 

But I still don't know anybody in ISCKON making (implying it) such a

claim.

 

I mean, there is nothing really so unic about to say for someone

in ISCKON "He does not claim to be an uttama adhikari." Who does?

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2293607 from COM]

>

> >

> > >

> > > > Srila Prabhupada did definatly make at least one pure devotee, HH Gour

> > Govinda Swami, and of course we have Jayananda prabhu, who knows who else

> > their may be?

> > > >

> >

> >

> > I didn't realize that HH Gour Govinda Swami was an officially ISKCON

> > endorsed pure devotee. How exactly does one 'make' a pure devotee?

>

> I am not sure about official. His dissapearance and appearance days are on

> the calander, and if you know his dissapearance pastime, there can be no

> doubt.

 

Not to take sides one way or another, but among some people there is doubt

*precisely* because of the circumstances of his disappearance.

 

ys

 

hkdd

[Guest guest]

At 7:43 -0800 5/6/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) wrote:

>it is Srimate

>Radharani who is the bestower of pure devotional service. Let people's

>activities speak for themselves.

 

Seems much safer to me too. No need to focus on labels when there are so

many wonderful activites and qualities to glorify and encourage.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > I don't know anybody in ISCKON maikin such claim for himself.

> >

> > ys mnd

>

> I don't know if Kirtanananda ever explicitly made such a claim but he

> certainly implied it strongly.

 

Dead right, there is a difference between saying that I am not such a

person, and implying by actions that one is, and not categoricaly denying

it. It is the difference between honesty and dishonesty.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

>

> > [Text 2293607 from COM]

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > Srila Prabhupada did definatly make at least one pure devotee, HH

> > > > > Gour

> > > Govinda Swami, and of course we have Jayananda prabhu, who knows who

> > > else their may be?

> > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I didn't realize that HH Gour Govinda Swami was an officially ISKCON

> > > endorsed pure devotee. How exactly does one 'make' a pure devotee?

> >

> > I am not sure about official. His dissapearance and appearance days are

> > on the calander, and if you know his dissapearance pastime, there can be

> > no doubt.

>

> Not to take sides one way or another, but among some people there is doubt

> *precisely* because of the circumstances of his disappearance.

 

Really I had no idea, what do they think?

[Guest guest]

> > Thank you very much for the quote. I hate to be picky, but it does not

> > say specifically that a madhyama-adhikari can be a spiritual master, at

> > least I did not read that in the text. One can maybe say that it is

> > stated indirectly, though.

>

> Yes, you are being picky.

 

I am sorry. I am actually convinced that a madhyama-adhikari guru can make

sense, even if it is not the best solution if an uttama-adhikari is around.

 

> I think over a long span of time, such as Srila Prabhupada's books are

> meant for, many different permutations of guru will manifest, so too

> specific may be right at one time and wrong at the next. If we try to get

> too narrow in our definition of guru, we could miss out on a lot of

> opportunities.

>

> The clear principle is that it takes acceptance of someone else other than

> just our own mind to make spiritual advancement and connection. Details

> of which kind of guru and what type of ritualistic relationships there are

> or how they are sustained are all secondary to that.

 

It is esential to advance in spiritual life, and if one finds someone who

can actually help, then that is naturally always better than accepting no

help. Makes sense.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I still believe that it may be difficult for a lot of devotees to go on for

> the rest of their life advancing spiritually without having a fully

> qualified and physically manifested guru (diksa or siksa). And I am

> convinced that "everyone" would benefit from such a situation, where they

> get siksa from advanced devotees.

 

I think everyone would agree with you. Plus,

 

TRANSLATION

O King, I have taken shelter of twenty-four gurus, who are the following: the

earth, air, sky, water, fire, moon, sun, pigeon and python; the sea, moth,

honeybee, elephant and honey thief; the deer, the fish, the prostitute Pingala,

the kurara bird and the child; and the young girl, arrow maker, serpent, spider

and wasp. My dear King, by studying their activities I have learned the science

of the self.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.7.33-35

 

 

 

 

> I have heard so many things in different lectures and read som many things

> in Srila Prabhupada's books, but one thing which somehow is stuck in my

> consciousness is that the only was to get out of the material world is

> through the mercy of a pure devotee. Am I completely off having this idea?

 

It is 2 fold. One is hearing bona fida the authorised teachings, the other is

taking advantage ofthe opportunity.

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, one who has understood

the

futility of material existence can approach a bona fide spiritual master. In

the

two previous verses the futility of earthly and heavenly sense gratification

has

been described. Now, the natural conclusion is that one who has understood this

should approach a bona fide spiritual master. The bona fide spiritual master

broadcasts the sound vibration from the spiritual planets called Vaikuntha. The

inhabitants of the spiritual planets, headed by the Supreme Personality of

Godhead Himself, are certainly not deaf and dumb; they are in constant

communication through unlimited transcendental bliss and knowledge. And the

bona

fide spiritual master can transmit this sound vibration of bliss and knowledge

to his disciple. Just as a radio broadcasts mundane news, the bona fide guru

broadcasts the news from Vaikuntha. This is confirmed by Narottama dasa

Thakura:

golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama-sankirtana. The spiritual master also transmits

to the disciple the holy name of Krsna, which is nondifferent from Krsna

Himself. The bona fide guru informs his disciple that every living entity is

qualitatively one with the Supreme Lord but quantitatively different and thus

engages the disciple in the loving service of the Lord. Because the living

entity is qualitatively one with the Lord and is part of Him, there is an

eternal loving relationship between them. And because the living entity is

quantitatively different, that relationship is eternally one of service.

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, even though one may have

the good fortune to accept a bona fide, highly qualified guru, if one maintains

a taste for fruitive activities or mental speculation one's advancement will be

checked. But if a serious student surrenders to a bona fide spiritual master

there is absolutely no impediment to the transmission of perfect knowledge and

bliss in the devotional service of the Lord.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.3.21

 

 

 

 

 

> The idea is that if you are swimming around in material nescience, you

> cannot get out of it without getting help from a person who is already

> sitting in a boat who can drag you out. If you meet someone who is himself

> stuck in the ocean, who tells you about the boat or the shore, maybe he can

> help you to figure out where to look for the boat, but he cannot pick you up

> himself before he is safe. Something like that, ok?

>

> Ys

> Jkd

 

At least knowing which way to look can be helpful.

[Guest guest]

On 09 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

>

> TRANSLATION

> O King, I have taken shelter of twenty-four gurus, who are the following:

the earth, air, sky, water, fire, moon, sun, pigeon and python; the sea, moth,

honeybee, elephant and honey thief; the deer, the fish, the prostitute

Pingala, the kurara bird and the child; and the young girl, arrow maker,

serpent, spider and wasp. My dear King, by studying their activities I have

learned the science of the self.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.7.33-35

>

 

 

ISKCON's difficulty is that we need more elephants at the GBC meetings in

Mayapura, but there ain't no way I'm gonna offer a comment on the possible

circumstances surrounding Pinagala offering siksa to someone in the SB.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> On 09 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> >

> > TRANSLATION

> > O King, I have taken shelter of twenty-four gurus, who are the

> > following:

> the earth, air, sky, water, fire, moon, sun, pigeon and python; the sea,

> moth, honeybee, elephant and honey thief; the deer, the fish, the

> prostitute Pingala, the kurara bird and the child; and the young girl,

> arrow maker, serpent, spider and wasp. My dear King, by studying their

> activities I have learned the science of the self.

> >

> > >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.7.33-35

> >

 

So to learn from a pigeon was not so far out after all.

 

>

>

> ISKCON's difficulty is that we need more elephants at the GBC meetings in

> Mayapura, but there ain't no way I'm gonna offer a comment on the possible

> circumstances surrounding Pinagala offering siksa to someone in the SB.

>

 

After seeing a film yesterday about prostitution in Thailand and India, I

drastically changed my opinion about what a prostitute is. Obviously a girl

having been sold at the age of 13 and trained up and forced to survive such

circumstances might very well be a devotee at heart.

 

Your servant Gunamani d.d.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> It is my humble opinion that Krsna has given us the eternal association of

His

> pure devotee, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, through the "agency" of his books.

The

> guru is the expansion of Vyasadev Who is Krsna Himself.

>

> Prabhupada's purports are the association of the pure devotee.

 

And where did those purports come from? Does anyone think he was just thinking

them up on the fly? In truth, he had a volume of Srimad Bhagavatam that had

the puports of 3 or 4 previous acaryas compiled for each verse. He would read

those, then, based on the existing purports of previous members of the

sampradaya, give his own for English translation.

 

Please don't think I am trying to minimize Srila Prabhupada in any way, but,

as

he stated many times, his perfection was passing on what he had been told

without

speculating on it. He happened to be a great personality, but it is the

connection to the sampradaya that is important, not just the limitations of

any

particular individual.

 

 

Just like in a football (soccer) match, we may think of Srila Prabhupada as

the

striker who puts the ball into the net of contemporary ugrakarmic society, but

if Bhaktivinode Thakur hadn't defended the last thread of Vaisnavism from the

encroaching Kali Yuga, if Bhaktisiddhanta hadn't shown the way of by

breaking

caste bonds and initiating nonbrahmans and women, thus delivering the ball

through the midfield, all of Srila Prabhupada's ball handling expertise would

be

for naught.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> So, does this negate the spiritual advancement of thousand and thousands of

> disciples of Srila Prabhupada who never had the opportunity to HEAR the pure

> devotees instruction , directly, personally from his LIPS? Virtually all of

> the disciples had by far a majority of association with Srila Prabhupada

> through his books and tapes (gramaphone?). Some never HEARD personally from

> his LIPS instructions for spiritual life.

>

> Did he ask us to distribute his books by the millions and millions, but after

> he left the planet they were useless with out his personal association?

>

 

Why do you think someone is saying that?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Apparently there is a letter of 69-11-16, (I dont know to who) where

> Prabhupada states "Articles written by my Guru Maharaja can be published

> without any hesitation". Maybe someone could check it on folio.

> >

 

Letter to: Hayagriva

--

London

7 November, 1969

69-11-07

 

My Dear Hayagriva,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated

October 29, 1969 and noted the contents. Things are going on nicely in every

department, and it is very encouraging. But as I have already told you, your

first business is to see about the publication of my books. I have already

advised Satsvarupa and Brahmananda in this connection, and they will take the

necessary care for it. I want to know if Nectar of Devotion is coming along at

proper pace. So you will kindly manage in Columbus that the printing matters

are

substantially ready for the press. The press may not sit idly for want of

printing matter. Then it will be very nice from all sides. Pradyumna is in

charge of making the diacritic marks nicely, so I shall be glad to know if he

is

doing that work according to plan. Recently I received one letter from

Arundhati

that she wants to work very hard. So Syama Dasi should also do this as it was

previously programmed. The main point is that the press should not sit down for

want of printing matter. That you will kindly manage.

As you write that you cannot find suitable work in Boston, you stick to

Columbus

and give sufficient time to your editing work. Please also take care of the

children. They are our future hopes, and the adolescent age is the most

dangerous age. It is the turning point of one's life. In this age, if you take

care of the children, surely they will come out first class Krishna Conscious

devotees.

Regarding publishing articles from the Harmonist, after the departure of my

Guru

Maharaja so many nonsense things have been written. So we should know who has

written these articles. Articles written by my Guru Maharaja can be published

without any hesitation, but articles written by Prof. Sannyal after 1936, they

are not at all good.

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good

health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hayagriva -- London 7 November, 1969

[Guest guest]

>

> >

>

> ISKCON's difficulty is that we need more elephants at the GBC meetings in

> Mayapura, but there ain't no way I'm gonna offer a comment on the possible

> circumstances surrounding Pinagala offering siksa to someone in the SB.

>

> .

 

SB 11.8.22 - O son of kings, previously in the city of Videha there dwelled a

prostitute named Piìgalä. Now please hear what I have learned from that lady.

 

SB 11.8.23 - Once that prostitute, desiring to bring a lover into her house,

stood

outside in the doorway at night showing her beautiful form.

 

SB 11.8.24 - O best among men, this prostitute was very anxious to get money,

and

as she stood on the street at night she studied all the men who were passing

by,

thinking, “Oh, this one surely has money. I know he can pay the price, and I am

sure he would enjoy my company very much.” Thus she thought about all the men

on

the street.

 

SB 11.8.25-26 - As the prostitute Piìgalä stood in the doorway, many men came

and

went, walking by her house. Her only means of sustenance was prostitution, and

therefore she anxiously thought, “Maybe this one who is coming now is very

rich...Oh, he is not stopping, but I am sure someone else will come. Surely

this

man who is coming now will want to pay me for my love, and he will probably

give

lots of money.” Thus, with vain hope, she remained leaning against the doorway,

unable to finish her business and go to sleep. Out of anxiety she would

sometimes

walk out toward the street, and sometimes she went back into her house. In this

way, the midnight hour gradually arrived.

 

SB 11.8.27 - As the night wore on, the prostitute, who intensely desired money,

gradually became morose, and her face dried up. Thus being filled with anxiety

for

money and most disappointed, she began to feel a great detachment from her

situation, and happiness arose in her mind.

 

SB 11.8.28 - The prostitute felt disgusted with her material situation and thus

became indifferent to it. Indeed, detachment acts like a sword, cutting to

pieces

the binding network of material hopes and desires. Now please hear from me the

song sung by the prostitute in that situation.

 

SB 11.8.29 - O King, just as a human being who is bereft of spiritual knowledge

never desires to give up his false sense of proprietorship over many material

things, similarly, a person who has not developed detachment never desires to

give

up the bondage of the material body.

 

SB 11.8.30 - The prostitute Piìgalä said: Just see how greatly illusioned I am

!

Because I cannot control my mind, just like a fool I desire lusty pleasure from

an

insignificant man.

 

SB 11.8.31 - I am such a fool that I have given up the service of that person

who,

being eternally situated within my heart, is actually most dear to me. That

most

dear one is the Lord of the universe, who is the bestower of real love and

happiness and the source of all prosperity. Although He is in my own heart, I

have

completely neglected Him. Instead I have ignorantly served insignificant men

who

can never satisfy my real desires and who have simply brought me unhappiness,

fear, anxiety, lamentation and illusion.

 

SB 11.8.32 - Oh, how I have uselessly tortured my own soul! I have sold my body

to

lusty, greedy men who are themselves objects of pity. Thus practicing the most

abominable profession of a prostitute, I hoped to get money and sex pleasure.

 

SB 11.8.33 - This material body is like a house in which I, the soul, am

living.

The bones forming my spine, ribs, arms and legs are like the beams, crossbeams

and

pillars of the house, and the whole structure, which is full of stool and

urine,

is covered by skin, hair and nails. The nine doors leading into this body are

constantly excreting foul substances. Besides me, what woman could be so

foolish

as to devote herself to this material body, thinking that she might find

pleasure

and love in this contraption?

 

SB 11.8.34 - Certainly in this city of Videha I alone am completely foolish. I

neglected the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who awards us everything, even

our

original spiritual form, and instead I desired to enjoy sense gratification

with

many men.

 

SB 11.8.35 - The Supreme Personality of Godhead is absolutely the most dear one

for all living beings because He is everyone’s well-wisher and Lord. He is the

Supreme Soul situated in everyone’s heart. Therefore I will now pay the price

of

complete surrender, and thus purchasing the Lord I will enjoy with Him just

like

Lakñmédevé.

 

SB 11.8.36 - Men provide sense gratification for women, but all these men, and

even the demigods in heaven, have a beginning and an end. They are all

temporary

creations who will be dragged away by time. Therefore how much actual pleasure

or

happiness could any of them ever give to their wives?

 

SB 11.8.37 - Although I most stubbornly hoped to enjoy the material world,

somehow

or other detachment has arisen in my heart, and it is making me very happy.

Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viñëu, must be pleased with me.

Without even knowing it, I must have performed some activity satisfying to Him.

 

SB 11.8.38 - A person who has developed detachment can give up the bondage of

material society, friendship and love, and a person who undergoes great

suffering

gradually becomes, out of hopelessness, detached and indifferent to the

material

world. Thus, due to my great suffering, such detachment awoke in my heart; yet

how

could I have undergone such merciful suffering if I were actually unfortunate?

Therefore, I am in fact fortunate and have received the mercy of the Lord. He

must

somehow or other be pleased with me.

 

SB 11.8.39 - With devotion I accept the great benefit that the Lord has

bestowed

upon me. Having given up my sinful desires for ordinary sense gratification, I

now

take shelter of Him, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 11.8.40 - I am now completely satisfied, and I have full faith in the Lord’s

mercy. Therefore I will maintain myself with whatever comes of its own accord.

I

shall enjoy life with only the Lord, because He is the real source of love and

happiness.

 

SB 11.8.41 - The intelligence of the living entity is stolen away by activities

of

sense gratification, and thus he falls into the dark well of material

existence.

Within that well he is then seized by the deadly serpent of time. Who else but

the

Supreme Personality of Godhead could save the poor living entity from such a

hopeless condition?

 

SB 11.8.42 - When the living entity sees that the entire universe has been

seized

by the serpent of time, he becomes sober and sane and at that time detaches

himself from all material sense gratification. In that condition the living

entity

is qualified to be his own protector.

 

SB 11.8.43 - The avadhüta said: Thus, her mind completely made up, Piìgalä cut

off

all her sinful desires to enjoy sex pleasure with lovers, and she became

situated

in perfect peace. Then she sat down on her bed.

 

SB 11.8.44 - Material desire is undoubtedly the cause of the greatest

unhappiness,

and freedom from such desire is the cause of the greatest happiness. Therefore,

completely cutting off her desire to enjoy so-called lovers, Piìgalä very

happily

went to sleep.

[Guest guest]

Thank you, it is very encouraging to read the full letter.

 

> > Apparently there is a letter of 69-11-16, (I dont know to who) where

> > Prabhupada states "Articles written by my Guru Maharaja can be published

> > without any hesitation". Maybe someone could check it on folio.

 

> Regarding publishing articles from the Harmonist, after the departure of

> my Guru Maharaja so many nonsense things have been written. So we should

> know who has written these articles. Articles written by my Guru Maharaja

> can be published without any hesitation, but articles written by Prof.

> Sannyal after 1936, they are not at all good.

> Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good

> health.

> Your ever well-wisher,

> A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hayagriva -- London 7 November, 1969

[Guest guest]

On 10 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> > Did he ask us to distribute his books by the millions and millions, but

after

> > he left the planet they were useless with out his personal association?

> >

>

> Why do you think someone is saying that?

 

 

 

I am not criticizing any good member of this conference and I apologize for

the inference. It was a rhetorical question as the result of the discussion

regarding writings of SBSST wherein "reading" is discussed.

 

I would become concerned with interpretations, albeit innocent ones, which may

minimize the value of reading scripture as translated/written by a pure

devotee. Obviously, SBSST wrote hundreds of books also, so he is not saying

that reading has no value.

 

Samba Prabhu's view on this is important in my opinion. The quality of the

"transmitter" and the "receptacle" are of considerable importance. A

smarta(i.e., false, pretentious) brahmana could read every scripture there is

and memorize thousands of verses and still not understand a thing about

spiritual life (bhakti), and yet an illiterate beggar could be trying to read

the Bhagavad-gita upside down and grasp the whole thing due to sincerity of

heart.

[Guest guest]

> So you will kindly manage in

> Columbus that the printing matters are substantially ready for the press.

> The press may not sit idly for want of printing matter. Then it will be

> very nice from all sides...

 

> Regarding publishing articles from the Harmonist, after the departure of

> my Guru Maharaja so many nonsense things have been written. So we should

> know who has written these articles. Articles written by my Guru Maharaja

> can be published without any hesitation, but articles written by Prof.

> Sannyal after 1936, they are not at all good.

> Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good

> health.

> Your ever well-wisher,

> A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Janesvara Prabhu mentioned that there does not appear to be much emphasis on

the works of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Srila Prabhupada said we

should not hesitate to print any of his articles. Yet in ISKCON they appear

to be almost unheard of. Why is that? Is the siddhanta too revealing?

 

Maybe better late than never?

 

Sd

[Guest guest]

At 18:15 -0800 5/10/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

>

>I feel he included everything in his works which we need to understand Krsna

>scientifically and lovingly.

 

I can understand "lovingly", but "scientifically"? Are we perhaps using

different definitions of that word?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 10 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

 

> I can understand "lovingly", but "scientifically"? Are we perhaps using

> different definitions of that word?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said over and over again: "the SCIENCE of Krsna

consciousness".

 

yfs,bbd

[Guest guest]

> > Why do you think someone is saying that?

> I would become concerned with interpretations, albeit innocent ones, which

> may minimize the value of reading scripture as translated/written by a

> pure devotee. Obviously, SBSST wrote hundreds of books also, so he is not

> saying that reading has no value.

> The quality of the

> "transmitter" and the "receptacle" are of considerable importance. A

> smarta(i.e., false, pretentious) brahmana could read every scripture there

> is and memorize thousands of verses and still not understand a thing about

> spiritual life (bhakti), and yet an illiterate beggar could be trying to

> read the Bhagavad-gita upside down and grasp the whole thing due to

> sincerity of heart.

 

Great points. One of the reasons I got cold feet in this debate, is because

actualy our philosophy is so vast, and I was afraid I would not really do it

justice. Its a fact that reading Srila Prabhupadas books can mean the

difference between eternal life, or dismal death.

 

My main point is that after having read them, (and this is Bhaktisiddhantas

point also), you then have to act on them, and that means, the way of making

*spiritual* advancement, is to surrender to a book Bhagavat, and render

unmotivated loving service to him. If you do that and he is pleased you will

get the goods, by his mercy. If you are duplicitous or have a cheatin heart

(as they say in the good ole USA), you will get cheated.

 

You can make a lot of preparatory advancement by intellectualy

understanding, but spiritual advancement comes when you accept a (real) guru

in your heart and start rendering service. You have to accept a guru, to

whom, you can offer actual tangible service, and accept guidance and

chastisement.

 

That was always my understanding of the process of spiritual life, the

process of enquiry.

 

Prabhupadas books contain a lot more than probabaly many of the other

acarayas specificaly in relating spiritual life in a western context.

Spiritual life, the process of surrender is a very complex series of

interactions. The guru sees the motivation, and the level of the sisya, and

molds the teaching to his particular need, sometimes cajoling, sometimes

chastising, sometimes sending away. If we are simple it is simple but if we

are complicated, it is complicated, and I feel that many off us are way too

complicated (or should that be crooked?).

 

Srila Prabhuada was totaly eager to get as many people in the net as

possible, and therefore he gave diksa to almost anyone who showed minimum

interest. But we know that the knowledge is also transmitted by siksa. He

set up a worldwide society, and he fully expected at least some of his

disciples to succeed, to actualy become qualified. he wanted a society that

would take care of the needs of the people he had brought, and so he

expected his people to BECOME qualified. And I beleive that is by prayer,

and service attitude to each other. It has been mentioned that in the

Guadiya Math, you often see the swami's doing the service, serving prasad

etc. That is the kind of attitude required.

 

We have done the greatest disservice in not establishing the siddhanta in

the minds of all our devotees, and by pushing and encouraging minimal

standards in my opinion. Becasue of this, and also because we have not had a

society where truthful,sincere devotees can safely speak up, what to speak

of being encouraged to speak up, when barriers of behaviour are

transgressed.

 

Our leaders also, instead of being introspective, instead of going deeper

into the previous acarayas works, seem to sometimes hide behind a kind of

sentimental Prabhupada appreciation, instead of actualy following his

instructions, and studying the works of the previous acaryas, making a

unified constitution, starting varnasrama, etc, etc.

 

Our philosophy appears to be so weakened that we are going the way of the

Christian church, with 'figurehead' priests, innefectual, sense gratifying

pontifs, in their finery, and the lay people criticising, and ignoring papal

authority.

 

Sd

[Guest guest]

>> I can understand "lovingly", but "scientifically"? Are we perhaps using

>> different definitions of that word?

>

>

>Srila Prabhupada said over and over again: "the SCIENCE of Krsna

>consciousness".

 

Maybe someone can define how it fits the usual definition for "scientific"

or if we are talking about a *different* definition of this word (if so,

what?) here than the one normally used. The reason I asked the previous

author this question, was because he appeared to have some insight in how

this could be.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 11 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

>

> >> I can understand "lovingly", but "scientifically"? Are we perhaps using

> >> different definitions of that word?

> >

> >

> >Srila Prabhupada said over and over again: "the SCIENCE of Krsna

> >consciousness".

>

> Maybe someone can define how it fits the usual definition for "scientific"

> or if we are talking about a *different* definition of this word (if so,

> what?) here than the one normally used.

 

 

I know sometimes quotes aren't read because of time limitations but a couple

of relevant quotes are necessary to reference where my idea of scientific is

coming from:

 

"The protection of the brahmanas maintains the institution of varna and

asrama, the most scientific culture for attainment of spiritual life." SB

1.8.5

 

"Distinction of human life and animal life therefore begins with the

scientific system of varna and asrama, guided by the experience of the sages

in relation with the demigods, gradually rising to the summit of

reestablishing our eternal relation with the Supreme Absolute Truth

Personality of Godhead Lord Sri Krsna. When God-made varnasrama-dharma, which

is strictly meant for developing animal consciousness into godly

consciousness, is broken by advancement of foolishness, the whole system of

peaceful and progressive life is at once disturbed." SB 1.16.31

 

"The Vedic religion or the principles of the Vedas have been followed by the

highly cultured population of India since time immemorial; no one can trace

out the history of Vedic religion. Therefore it is sanatana, and any blasphemy

against the Vedas is calculated to be atheism... The Vedas describe how to

divide the human race into four divisions according to quality and working

capacity. This is very scientific system, and it is also sanatana, for no one

can trace out its history, and it has no dissolution. No one can stop the

system of varna and asrama, or the castes and divisions. SB 4.2.31

 

"In the Visnu Purana it is stated that unless people are educated or situated

in the scientific social order comprised of four varnas and four asramas

society can never be considered real human society, nor can it make any

advancement toward the ultimate goal of human life. It is the duty of the

government to see that things go on in terms of varna and asrama. SB 4.14.18

 

"The varnasrama system is the most scientific presentation of religiosity on

the earth, and those who are most perfect in that system come to the point of

Krsna consciousness, or dedicating everything for the satisfaction of the

Supreme Lord." (SB 11.17.9, purport)

 

Unless this system is introduced, human activities cannot be systematically

executed... The conclusion is that the scientific method of Varnasrama-dharma

should be adopted by society." CC Mad. 8.58.

 

 

 

My frame of thought regarding science revolves around these references which I

have studied for years and have become stuck in my mind as the true standard

of what really gives science relevance. To me. I realize that others have

concepts about science and its relevance to them.

There is spiritual science and material science.

 

Science, as I know it, means the study of the world and life within it and

brings everything to the conclusion that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of

Godhead and everything is created and controlled by Him. And that, service to

Him through the varnasrama-dharma institution is the most scientific and

eternal service platform for living entities who are trying to purify

themselves in the material world.

 

There are some other very nice quotes following for anyone who may be

interested:

 

 

"Astronomical calculations of stellar influences upon a living being are not

suppositions, but are factual, as confirmed in Srimad Bhagavatam. ...The law

of nature is so subtle that every part of our body is influenced by the

respective stars, and a living entity obtains his working body to fulfill his

terms of imprisonment by the manipulation of such astronomical influence. A

man's destiny is therefore ascertained by the birth time constellation of

stars and a factual horoscope is made by a learned astrologer. It is a great

science, and misuse of a science does not make it useless. S.B. 1.12.12.

 

"...Srimad-Bhagavatam is so scientifically presented that any sincere student

of this great science will be able to understand the science of God simply by

reading it with attention or simply by regularly hearing it from the bonafide

speaker... Even those who are after the enjoyment of this material world can

also take shelter of the great science of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and they will be

successful at the end." S.B. 2.7.52.

 

"In Bhagavad-gita it is said that in order to make spiritual progress, one

must become fearless.(16.1)...Without being fearless, one cannot be joyful...

By practicing bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, one becomes fearless and joyful. Unless

one becomes fearless and joyful, he cannot understand the science of God."

S.B. 4.24.52.

 

"One doesn't have to give up his occupation as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaishya,

shudra or whatever. In any position, while discharging his prescribed duty,

one can develop Krishna consciousness simply by associating with devotees who

are representatives of Krishna and who can teach this science." S.B. 5.14.40.

 

"At the present moment, thousands of spiritual masters are needed to spread

this great science throughout the world." Raja-vidya pg 88

 

"The qualification, then, of a spiritual master is not to be a qualified

brahmana, but to be well versed in the science of Krsna. One who is conversant

with Vedic wisdom is a brahmana. And only a brahmana who is a pure Vaisnava

and knows all the intricacies of the science of Krsna can become a spiritual

master. Srimad Bhagavatam 3.6.30

 

"Whether one is a brähmana, a sannyäsi or a südra—regardless of what he is—he

can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna."

 

If one understands the truth of Krsna

consciousness and seriously desires to attain transcendental knowledge for the

perfection of life, he can accept a spiritual master from any social status,

provided the spiritual master is fully conversant with the science of Krsna.

Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura also states that although one is

situated as a brähmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacäri, vänaprastha,

grhastha or sannyäsi, if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can

become a spiritual master as vartma-pradarsaka-guru, diksä-guru or siksä-guru.

The spiritual master who first gives information about spiritual life is

called the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, the spiritual master who initiates

according to the regulations of the sastras is called the diksä-guru, and the

spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the

siksä-guru. Factually the qualifications of a spiritual master depend on his

knowledge of the science of Krsna.

 

"The living entities are therefore completely dependent on the mercy of the

Lord, and all their so-called enjoyments by scientific improvements are

crushed by the Lord into dust when the Lord desires." S.B. 2.10.12.

 

"The modern scientists who are trying to travel in space are having difficulty

going even to the nearest planet, the moon, to say nothing of the highest

planets within the universe." S.B. 3.15.15.