Initiation (?)

[Guest guest]

Some idea becomes knowledge (scientific) when tested useful.

 

Bhagavad-gita says pratykasavagam dharmyam susukam kartum avyayam: the

direct experience(proof) of happiness (the science of KC) is in the doing .

(That´s the raja-vidya verse)

 

 

 

The mundane science also has to prove their theories by practical

application in a laboratorytest . Then it´s scientific.

 

Our laboratory is the consciousness, or the heart - therefore some people

has a hard time acknowleding us as scientific. Because you cannot put the

heart under a microscope.

 

But nonetheless the method of science is the same - judge by the fruit.

 

Still both their "science" and ours is based on initial faith.

 

two cents

 

your servant

Trayimaya dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Certainly. But, would he not "accept" someone who has "approached" him

through

> his books which were by far his most important contribution to the Krsna

> consciosness movement?

 

Guru is one. Yes, he would accept.

 

> Can't Srila Prabhupada deliver a soul to Krsna's lotus

> feet if that person is living anywhere and happens to read one of Srila

> Prabhupada's books with sincerity? Isn't this why Srila Prabhupada wanted us

> to distribute millions and millions of his books?

 

Which makes the book distributor the living link to the sampradaya.

 

>

> I would be very happy to sponsor someone to Srila Prabhupada for acceptance

as

> a disciple similar to the way me and thousands of my godbrothers were

> disciples. In fact, I have been doing that for several years for a good

friend

> of mine who is trying to develop his spiritual life. My "sponsoring" would be

> through prayer and service that Srila Prabhupada please accept this sincere

> person the same way I pray and serve and offer food to Srila Prabhupada's

> pictures every morning. Does he not hear my prayers anymore now that he is

> "gone"?

>

 

So you sponsor him, good thing. Question, if he surrenders, will you absorb

the karma or will you expect Srila Prabhupada to do so?

[Guest guest]

On 12 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> So you sponsor him, good thing. Question, if he surrenders, will you

absorb

> the karma or will you expect Srila Prabhupada to do so?

>

 

Fair question. I believe I am not qualified to accept him as a disciple and

thereby accept his karma, but I will accept any responsibility which Krsna and

Srila Prabhupada would expect of me for my humble part.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2313073 from COM]

>

> On 12 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> > So you sponsor him, good thing. Question, if he surrenders, will you

> absorb

> > the karma or will you expect Srila Prabhupada to do so?

> >

>

> Fair question. I believe I am not qualified to accept him as a disciple and

> thereby accept his karma, but I will accept any responsibility which Krsna

and

> Srila Prabhupada would expect of me for my humble part.

 

At some point someone has to take the karma. Personally, I don't think it is

fair to nurture someone along, then at the critical point, just turn and say

I'm

going to dump all the karma on Srila Prabhupada, which is what I percieve the

rittviks as doing. I think you need to be confident enough in your opinion of

the

candidate to be willing to take the lkarma yourself, or at least let the diksa

guru have the option of reviewing the candidate, which Srila Prabhupada did

have

whilst on the planet, even if to our eyes it seemed he was just far far away

and uninvolved.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Exactly and that is ISKCON problem right now. Most of HKM's disciple

> probably thought he was the real thing, and got horribly let down. There

> appears to be a phenomenon in ISKCON where even if a guru says 'I am not a

> pure devotee', all his disciples go 'Oh he is SO humble, look at him, he's

> such a pure devotee'. They don't want to listen to anyone, even their own

> guru, and often the guru accepts this misconception anyway, becasue it makes

> for bigger collections.

 

TRANSLATION

Sometimes the progress of imperfect transcendentalists is checked by attachment

to family members, disciples or others, who are sent by envious demigods for

that purpose. But on the strength of their accumulated advancement, such

imperfect transcendentalists will resume their practice of yoga in the next

life. They will never again be trapped in the network of fruitive work.

PURPORT

Sometimes sannyasis and other spiritual teachers are bewildered by flattering

followers and disciples sent by the demigods to embarrass spiritual leaders who

are lacking complete spiritual knowledge. Similarly, spiritual progress is

sometimes checked by attachment to one's bodily relatives. Although an

imperfect

transcendentalist may fall down from yoga practice in this life, he will resume

it in the next life on the strength of his accumulated merit, as described in

the Bhagavad-gita. The words na tu karma-tantram indicate that a fallen

transcendentalist does not have to pass through the lower stages of fruitive

activity and gradually be promoted to the practice of yoga. Rather, he will

immediately resume his yoga practice at that point at which he left it. Of

course, one should not presume to fall back on the facility offered here but

should try to become perfect in this lifetime. Sannyasis, especially, should

remove the knot of lust from their hearts and should avoid falling into the

clutches of flattering followers or female disciples sent by the demigods to

expose a so-called spiritual leader who is imperfect in Krsna conscious

knowledge.

 

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.28.29

[Guest guest]

>

>

> And how and when was it that they received diksa? Was there a particular

> ceremony which I missed?

 

Srila Prabhupada routinely used rittviks to give ceremonies when he wasn't

there.

Usually he would chant on beads and send them for the ceremony, though later,

he

designated Kirtananda and others to chant on beads on his behalf and then

Kirtanananda would send the beads. I think he was still picking the names the

devotees would get, even after he had others doing the chanting on the beads

and

giving the physical ceremony.

 

I can remember walking into Kirtananda's cabin and seeing him there with a big

pile of beads he would be chanting on for Srila Prabhupada.

 

>

>

> Madhava Gosh Prabhu, or other Prabhupada disciples on this conference, would

> you please describe to me when it was that you received diksa from Srila

> Prabhupada?

 

About June, 1974, in NV. Srila Prabhupada was there personally and did hand

me

my beads directly.

 

>

> How was it "performed". Did you speak/hear directly/personally to Srila

> Prabhupada when it happened.

>

 

Not other than the question he asked "What are the 4 regulative principles?"

which I did manage to croak out. Then he said my name, but I didn't really

understand what it was exactly, only Madhava something, until later when the

letter or whatever came with it in writing.

 

>

> Please, please respond. This is a very serious question of mine, not

> rhetorical.

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Jd

 

For all his initiations, hewas physically present on the same planet at the

same

time and aware of each individual candidate with a veto power, just sometimes

he

used agents due to logistical difficulties.

[Guest guest]

>

> And you are saying that association cannot be obtained through the books?

> Therefore no one has made advancement in ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada left

> the planet?

 

If you want to learn how to drive a car, it is very beneficial to read the

rules

of the State, to read a book by the most expert driver on all driving tips.

Still, it is best if you have someone in the car with you the first couple of

times around the block, even if their knowledge is not as complete as the

books,

or even if they aren't a world class driver themselves.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2315901 from COM]

>

> On 13 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> > That would be impersonal. Anyone can say, Oh I got the instruction from the

> > books. Spiritual life means discipline, being disciplined by the guru.

>

> I never once was disciplined "personally/directly/bodily" by Srila Prabhupada

> and neither were thousands of my godbrothers. What of us, Prabhu? We have

only

> had his indirect instructions given to us via his authorized representatives

> and mostly his books. Did he not accept any of our service?

 

I thought you said he sauced you for going along with Tokyo Rose fandango?

That

sounded pretty personal.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your prompt response Prabhu.

 

 

 

On 14 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> > And how and when was it that they received diksa? Was there a particular

> > ceremony which I missed?

>

> Srila Prabhupada routinely used rittviks to give ceremonies when he wasn't

> there.

> Usually he would chant on beads and send them for the ceremony, though

later,

> he

> designated Kirtananda and others to chant on beads on his behalf and then

> Kirtanananda would send the beads.

 

 

Is this what diksa means? Chanting on someone's beads? I thought that was

HariNama initiation or something like that. Doesn't diksa require surrendering

to a living guru and serving him personally/directly with inquiries and

instructions? Did you receive your knowledge of Krsna directly from Srila

Prabhupada or was it primarily through his books and tapes and other devotees?

 

 

Also, if it was KSwami who chanted on the beads does this negate the diksa

because of his subsequent major fall down?

 

 

 

>

> About June, 1974, in NV. Srila Prabhupada was there personally and did

hand

> me

> my beads directly.

 

 

I never had that happen to me. Did I miss the diksa bus?

 

 

 

> > How was it "performed". Did you speak/hear directly/personally to Srila

> > Prabhupada when it happened.

> >

 

> Not other than the question he asked "What are the 4 regulative principles?"

> which I did manage to croak out. Then he said my name, but I didn't really

> understand what it was exactly, only Madhava something, until later when the

> letter or whatever came with it in writing.

 

 

Is this the meaning of diksa initiation?

 

Why didn't Srila Prabhupada arrange to meet every single one of his disciples

personally/directly to give diksa association/instructions? When Srila

Prabhupada visited each temple wasn't it possible to set up a room in each

temple where Srila Prabhupada could have sat and received each disciple in a

temple one by one and given them direct/personal/bodily instructions/diksa?

 

 

 

>

> For all his initiations, hewas physically present on the same planet at the

> same

> time and aware of each individual candidate with a veto power, just

sometimes

> he

> used agents due to logistical difficulties.

 

 

Did he ever "veto" anyone after his trusted ritviks sponsored a prospective

candidate?

 

Did he get a detailed biography of each candidate's qualifications so he knew

the intimate details of this prospective disciple's service attitude and level

of surrender before granting initiation? Or did he know the candidate because

of his connection to Paramatma? Or did he rely upon his ritviks to train the

prospective disciple through instructions from the guru's books and lectures.

If he knew each one of his disciples because he was "physically present" on

the same planet why then did he not veto Kirtanananda's, Bhavananda's,

Jayatirtha's, Harikesha's, etc. ad nauseum, initiations knowing that they

would commit such offenses in the future?

 

If Srila Prabhupada is now preaching on a neighboring planet a few thousand

miles away cannot his ritviks continue to train prospective disciples the same

way they did previously and present the candidates to Srila Prabhpada's murti

in the temple? Does he refuse to accept our service to his murti in the temple

because he is not "here" to tell us if we are serving his murti properly?

Certainly our seva is not spotless. Should we take away all murti's of Srila

Prabhupada? Or does he trust us to serve his murti sufficiently? Does he trust

us to sufficiently train prospective disciples in the same way we did before?

[Guest guest]

On 14 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> > And you are saying that association cannot be obtained through the books?

> > Therefore no one has made advancement in ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada

left

> > the planet?

>

> If you want to learn how to drive a car, it is very beneficial to read the

> rules

> of the State, to read a book by the most expert driver on all driving tips.

> Still, it is best if you have someone in the car with you the first couple

of

> times around the block, even if their knowledge is not as complete as the

> books,

> or even if they aren't a world class driver themselves.

 

 

Thanks for the response, Prabhu.

 

I was speaking of "pure devotee, personal/living" association which was being

alledged as the "only" means of making progress.

 

I love association with devotees. I would never have made it this far in

spiritual life were it not for my association with Srila Prabhupada's

representatives, many of whom became close personal friends to this day.

 

I really do not see why anything has to change from the program which we,

Prabhupada disciples, experienced when he was "present". Rarely was there even

a glimpse of Srila Prabhupada "living" for many of his disciples. We all

worked together everyday in the temple or around it, reading his books

everyday, serving his mission, cleaning and maintaining his asramas, etc.

Diksa was rarely spoken of. If everyone had demanded that each disciple should

receive "personal/living guru" direct, bodily service to Srila Prabhupada so

they could personally speak to him, inquire from him, receive answers from

him, receive personal instruction/orders from him, what do you think the GBC

would have told everyone?

[Guest guest]

On 14 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> > I never once was disciplined "personally/directly/bodily" by Srila

Prabhupada

> > and neither were thousands of my godbrothers. What of us, Prabhu? We have

> only

> > had his indirect instructions given to us via his authorized

representatives

> > and mostly his books. Did he not accept any of our service?

>

 

> I thought you said he sauced you for going along with Tokyo Rose fandango?

> That

> sounded pretty personal.

 

 

 

Never did he he say to me directly, "Janesvara dasa, you are rascal for..." He

told his ritviks that we in the NY temple were foolish if we went along with

Bali Mardan's nonsense. They let us know about it in no uncertain terms.

[Guest guest]

> "Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his

> mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru."

>

> It was only due to the *social* customs that she couldn't

> become Dhruva's diksa-guru. Therefore Druva got to have

> somebody else (so happened to be Narada Muni). Nothing to

> do with her not being an uttama-bhakata.

>

 

Just like Bhaktivinde Thakur wouldn't give diksa to Bhaktisiddhanta

because he was his son.

 

> Guru is one. Siksa or diksa. Our line is indeed rather *siksa*

> line.

>

> However, your application of this example (that you are using to

> confirm your "fact" about our sankirtan devotees) would read:

>

> - Suniti was a bogus guru, so Dhruva got to get another one

> to get initiation from.

> - Dhruva accrues pious credit that results in getting a real

> guru, and thus he may start the actual spiritual advancement.

>

> How differently from Srila Prabhupada's view.

>

> One could also pay some attention to possibility of disciples'

> bringing back to Godhead their gurus. As the good sons are said

> to be the valuable asset to their father, so good disciples

> are the valuable asset to their guru.

>

> > I wonder if you really understand what principle means. We follow

> four

> > principles, and they are very rigid. Principle means rigid, as does

> > siddhanta. Siddhanta means the actual unchangable meaning, you cant

> go

> > aroun it, no matter how difficult it may appear. Surrender is not

> meant to

> > be easy. We can say oh spiritual life is meant to be simple.

> Christianity

> > is simple. Simply accept Jesus in your heart. But Gaudiya Vaisnava

> > siddhanta does not say, simply accept Prabhupada into your heart.

> >

>

> Please provide the guru-sadhu-sastra reference for the "principle"

> that unless one's diksa guru is not an infallible nitya-siddha,

> he can't "begin actual spiritual advancement". That he can't

> be connected to Guru-parampara (Srila Prabhupada, for us).

>

> Then we may go discussing our understandings of "what principle

> means".

>

> > But the entire point is that if you really want Krsna, you will get

> him.

> > If you are sincere he will make the arangements for you, there is no

> loss,

> > but you have to follow the instructions of the acaryas that is all.

>

> That is self-evident, though.

>

> ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Prabhu.. thank you... now I know who is my real guru. I should have

> realised

> it all along. I was determined to find Krsna, and my freind Paddy

> O'Flaherty, showed me the way. He directed me toward the Krsna Temple.

> He

> certainly has potency, as he can down 16 pints of strong ale in a

> single

> evening. I shall immediately approach him for Siksa.

 

You don't have to approach him again, he has already acted as siksa.

However, you can't advance beyond his level of advancement, so keep

looking for other siksas, even though you should continue to think

favorable of him for the aid he did give you.

 

Have you not heard

 

> however, that Kali has also taken shelter in our movement, and

> sometimes

> manifests in so called devotees, to disrupt Prabhupadas movement (can

> anyone

> give a reference to that?). The danger is within. We have to be very

> careful

> who we accept.

>

 

Search of Veda base for

 

Kali not "age of kali" not kali-yuga and movement

 

yielded 45 hits. The only thing close was the following, which talks

about devotees of Kali, not Kali directly. You might have heard that

story from Jayatirtha.

 

Prabhupada: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You

don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee.

Why do you think like that?

Pusta Krsna: Jaya Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: That Bhaktivinoda Thakura, eita eka kalira chela, nake

tilaka, galaya mala:(?) "Here is another follower of Kali. He has got

tilaka and mala." Sahaja bhajana kacen mamu, sanga laiya parera wala

(?): "He is worshiping, bhajana, taking another's wife." Sahaja bhajana

kacen mamu, sanga laiya parera wala, ei ta eka kalira chela: "Here is a

servant of Kali. Simply he has changed his dress with tilaka and mala."

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says. If you take tilaka and mala and do all

nonsense things, then you are not a devotee. You are Kali-chela. To

become a devotee is not so easy thing.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- March 25, 1976, Delhi

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

On 15 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Prabhu.. thank you... now I know who is my real guru. I should have

 

> > realised it all along. I was determined to find Krsna, and my freind Paddy

O'Flaherty, showed me the way. He directed me toward the Krsna Temple. He

certainly has potency, as he can down 16 pints of strong ale in a single

evening. I shall immediately approach him for Siksa.

 

> >

 

 

 

> You don't have to approach him again, he has already acted as siksa.

 

> However, you can't advance beyond his level of advancement, so keep

 

> looking for other siksas, even though you should continue to think

 

> favorable of him for the aid he did give you.

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

Aw Madhava Gosh, your turning into a real fundamentalist. Who knows what

realizations ol' Paddy could share after downing 16 pints of strong ale in a

single evening. And that must have been years ago, his realizations surely

have increased since then. I think all my devotional problems must stem from

never having excepted ol' Paddy as my siksa.

 

 

 

 

 

Sthita 'how dry I am' dhi-muni

[Guest guest]

WWW: Tulasi-priya (Devi

 

> Long ago, somebody in this movement, I can't remember who, quoted

> Prabhupada

> as saying that " After me, finished. No more acarya for the next

> 10,000 years.

>

> Could somebody authoritatively substantiate or refute this?

>

> ys,

> Tulai-priya dasi

 

Would this authoritatively refute it?

 

And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very

faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to

please him and spread Krsna consciousness. That's all. It is not at all

difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and

spread Krsna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

"By following My order, you become guru." And if we strictly follow the

acarya system and try our best to spread the instruction of Krsna...

Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. There are two

kinds of krsna-upadesa. Upadesa means instruction. Instruction given by

Krsna, that is also ‘krsna'-upadesa, and instruction received about

Krsna, that is also ‘krsna'-upadesa. Krsnasya upadesa iti krsna upadesa.

Samasa, sasti-tat-purusa-samasa. And Krsna visaya upadesa, that is also

Krsna upadesa. Bahu-vrihi-samasa. This is the way of analyzing Sanskrit

grammar. So Krsna's upadesa is Bhagavad-gita. He's directly giving

instruction. So one who is spreading Krsna-upadesa, simply repeat what

is said by Krsna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all.

Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not

exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply

vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you

can explain? So, so we want to spread Krsna consciousness. Simply

prepare yourself how to repeat Krsna's instructions very nicely, without

any malinterpretation. Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten

thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then

hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupada: So there will be no scarcity of acarya, and people will

understand Krsna consciousness very easily. So make that organization.

Don't be falsely puffed up. Follow the acarya's instruction and try to

make yourself perfect, mature. Then it will be very easy to fight out

maya. Yes. Acaryas, they declare war against maya's activities, that

maya instructing that "Here is wine. Here is cigarette. Here is that..."

In your country these advertisements are very prominent, holding both

ways, wine advertisement, cigarette advertisement, naked woman

advertisements, and sometimes gambling also, advertisement. What is

that? Congo?

Devotees: Bingo.

Prabhupada: Bingo. (laughter) Yes. So this is maya. And our declaration

of war with maya -- no intoxication, no meat-eating, no bingo --

(laughter) these are our declaration of war. So we have to fight in that

way because nobody can understand Krsna without being free from all

sinful activities. These are sinful activities. Therefore it is acarya's

business to stop these nonsense activities. Otherwise they'll not be

able to understand, especially the meat-eaters. They cannot understand.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.13 -- Mayapur,

April 6, 1975

[Guest guest]

WWW: Tulasi-priya (Devi

 

> Long ago, somebody in this movement, I can't remember who, quoted

> Prabhupada

> as saying that " After me, finished. No more acarya for the next

> 10,000 years.

>

> Could somebody authoritatively substantiate or refute this?

>

> ys,

> Tulai-priya dasi

 

Would this authoritatively refute it?

 

And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very

faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to

please him and spread Krsna consciousness. That's all. It is not at all

difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and

spread Krsna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

"By following My order, you become guru." And if we strictly follow the

acarya system and try our best to spread the instruction of Krsna...

Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. There are two

kinds of krsna-upadesa. Upadesa means instruction. Instruction given by

Krsna, that is also ‘krsna'-upadesa, and instruction received about

Krsna, that is also ‘krsna'-upadesa. Krsnasya upadesa iti krsna upadesa.

Samasa, sasti-tat-purusa-samasa. And Krsna visaya upadesa, that is also

Krsna upadesa. Bahu-vrihi-samasa. This is the way of analyzing Sanskrit

grammar. So Krsna's upadesa is Bhagavad-gita. He's directly giving

instruction. So one who is spreading Krsna-upadesa, simply repeat what

is said by Krsna, then you become acarya. Not difficult at all.

Everything is stated there. We have to simply repeat like parrot. Not

exactly parrot. Parrot does not understand the meaning; he simply

vibrates. But you should understand the meaning also; otherwise how you

can explain? So, so we want to spread Krsna consciousness. Simply

prepare yourself how to repeat Krsna's instructions very nicely, without

any malinterpretation. Then, in future... Suppose you have got now ten

thousand. We shall expand to hundred thousand. That is required. Then

hundred thousand to million, and million to ten million.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupada: So there will be no scarcity of acarya, and people will

understand Krsna consciousness very easily. So make that organization.

Don't be falsely puffed up. Follow the acarya's instruction and try to

make yourself perfect, mature. Then it will be very easy to fight out

maya. Yes. Acaryas, they declare war against maya's activities, that

maya instructing that "Here is wine. Here is cigarette. Here is that..."

In your country these advertisements are very prominent, holding both

ways, wine advertisement, cigarette advertisement, naked woman

advertisements, and sometimes gambling also, advertisement. What is

that? Congo?

Devotees: Bingo.

Prabhupada: Bingo. (laughter) Yes. So this is maya. And our declaration

of war with maya -- no intoxication, no meat-eating, no bingo --

(laughter) these are our declaration of war. So we have to fight in that

way because nobody can understand Krsna without being free from all

sinful activities. These are sinful activities. Therefore it is acarya's

business to stop these nonsense activities. Otherwise they'll not be

able to understand, especially the meat-eaters. They cannot understand.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.13 -- Mayapur,

April 6, 1975

[Guest guest]

> > I thought you said he sauced you for going along with Tokyo Rose

> fandango?

> > That

> > sounded pretty personal.

>

>

>

> Never did he he say to me directly, "Janesvara dasa, you are rascal

> for..." He

> told his ritviks that we in the NY temple were foolish if we went

> along with

> Bali Mardan's nonsense. They let us know about it in no uncertain

> terms.

 

First, a rittvik is an officiating priest engaged for a specific

purpose of ritualistic ceremony. A TP may act as a rittvik on

occasion, but when passing on info from Srila Prabhupada, that is a

little differnet, not exactly a rittvik.

 

Second,

 

On my first visit, His Divine Grace said that it was necessary for

educated boys like me to go to foreign countries and preach the gospel

of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I replied that India was a foreign-dominated

nation and that no one would hear our messages. Actually, at the time

foreigners considered Indians very insignificant because in the face of

so many independent nations India was still dependent, being dominated

by Britain. At the time there was one Bengali poet who actually lamented

that even uncivilized nations were independent, whereas India was

dependent on the British. His Divine Grace convinced me that dependence

and independence are simply temporary conditions, and he pointed out

that because we are concerned with the eternal benefit of humanity, we

should take up this challenge of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This meeting with

His Divine Grace, my Guru Maharaja, took place in 1922, half a century

ago.

I was officially initiated in 1933, just three years before the passing

of Guru Maharaja from this mortal world. At the last moment, just a

fortnight before his passing away, he wrote me a letter repeating his

instructions. He specifically said that I should try to preach this

gospel among English-speaking people.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => The Perfection of Self-realization

 

Even though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wasn't personally present all the time

with Srial Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada was still rendering personal

service, and following personal instructions.

 

Personal association doesn't need to mean actual physuical presence

daily, as you seem to be struggling with. You had Srila Prabhupada's

personal approval for your initiation, and you recieved personal

instructions from him, even though he wasn't personally looking you in

the eye at the time.

[Guest guest]

> Is this what diksa means? Chanting on someone's beads? I thought that

> was

> HariNama initiation or something like that. Doesn't diksa require

> surrendering

> to a living guru and serving him personally/directly with inquiries

> and

> instructions?

 

There is the heart connection of diksa, and there is the external

ritual acknowledging that connection. In the ritual, the guru chants

on the beads and gives them to his disciple.

 

> Did you receive your knowledge of Krsna directly from Srila

> Prabhupada or was it primarily through his books and tapes and other

> devotees?

 

I think you are obsessing on this point way beyond what is productive.

Of course it was books, tapes, and other devotees. So what? If I

personally plant the seeds in my garden, or I employ someone to plant

them for me, what is the difference? They are still my plants.

 

Srila Prabhupada is available to everyone through his books etc as

siksa. I think everyone agrees on that point. What are you trying to

prove by this insistence on making this point about physical presence?

 

>

>

> Also, if it was KSwami who chanted on the beads does this negate the

> diksa

> because of his subsequent major fall down?

>

> >

> > About June, 1974, in NV. Srila Prabhupada was there personally

> and did

> hand

> > me

> > my beads directly.

>

> I never had that happen to me. Did I miss the diksa bus?

>

> > > How was it "performed". Did you speak/hear directly/personally to

> Srila

> > > Prabhupada when it happened.

> > >

>

> > Not other than the question he asked "What are the 4 regulative

> principles?"

> > which I did manage to croak out. Then he said my name, but I

> didn't really

> > understand what it was exactly, only Madhava something, until later

> when the

> > letter or whatever came with it in writing.

>

> Is this the meaning of diksa initiation?

>

> Why didn't Srila Prabhupada arrange to meet every single one of his

> disciples

> personally/directly to give diksa association/instructions? When Srila

>

> Prabhupada visited each temple wasn't it possible to set up a room in

> each

> temple where Srila Prabhupada could have sat and received each

> disciple in a

> temple one by one and given them direct/personal/bodily

> instructions/diksa?

>

>

> >

> > For all his initiations, hewas physically present on the same

> planet at the

> > same

> > time and aware of each individual candidate with a veto power,

> just

> sometimes

> > he

> > used agents due to logistical difficulties.

>

> Did he ever "veto" anyone after his trusted ritviks sponsored a

> prospective

> candidate?

>

> Did he get a detailed biography of each candidate's qualifications so

> he knew

> the intimate details of this prospective disciple's service attitude

> and level

> of surrender before granting initiation? Or did he know the candidate

> because

> of his connection to Paramatma? Or did he rely upon his ritviks to

> train the

> prospective disciple through instructions from the guru's books and

> lectures.

> If he knew each one of his disciples because he was "physically

> present" on

> the same planet why then did he not veto Kirtanananda's, Bhavananda's,

>

> Jayatirtha's, Harikesha's, etc. ad nauseum, initiations knowing that

> they

> would commit such offenses in the future?

>

> If Srila Prabhupada is now preaching on a neighboring planet a few

> thousand

> miles away cannot his ritviks continue to train prospective disciples

> the same

> way they did previously and present the candidates to Srila

> Prabhpada's murti

> in the temple? Does he refuse to accept our service to his murti in

> the temple

> because he is not "here" to tell us if we are serving his murti

> properly?

> Certainly our seva is not spotless. Should we take away all murti's of

> Srila

> Prabhupada? Or does he trust us to serve his murti sufficiently? Does

> he trust

> us to sufficiently train prospective disciples in the same way we did

> before?

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much Prabhu.

 

> Search of Veda base for

>

> Kali not "age of kali" not kali-yuga and movement

>

> yielded 45 hits. The only thing close was the following, which talks

> about devotees of Kali, not Kali directly. You might have heard that

> story from Jayatirtha.

>

> Prabhupada: Devotees.... To become devotee is not so cheap thing. You

> don't think that because you have got a tilaka you have become devotee.

> Why do you think like that?

> Pusta Krsna: Jaya Prabhupada.

> Prabhupada: That Bhaktivinoda Thakura, eita eka kalira chela, nake tilaka,

> galaya mala:(?) "Here is another follower of Kali. He has got tilaka and

> mala." Sahaja bhajana kacen mamu, sanga laiya parera wala (?): "He is

> worshiping, bhajana, taking another's wife." Sahaja bhajana kacen mamu,

> sanga laiya parera wala, ei ta eka kalira chela: "Here is a servant of

> Kali. Simply he has changed his dress with tilaka and mala." Bhaktivinoda

> Thakura says. If you take tilaka and mala and do all nonsense things, then

> you are not a devotee. You are Kali-chela. To become a devotee is not so

> easy thing.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- March 25, 1976, Delhi

>

>

> >

[Guest guest]

> And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very

> faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to

> please him and spread Krsna consciousness. That's all. It is not at all

> difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and spread

> Krsna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.

 

 

There may be different applications of word "acarya":

 

1. The infallible maha-bhagavata Vaisnava, a nittya-siddha descending

to this world to save the fallen world (like Prabhupada).

2. Guru who teaches by example (like "ISCKON good-standing gurus")

3. Any serious devotee who, by practicing what told by guru, is

representing Prabhupada and his movement to the world (like Madhava

Gosh prabhu).

 

 

> Prabhupada: So there will be no scarcity of acarya, and people will

> understand Krsna consciousness very easily. So make that organization.

> Don't be falsely puffed up. Follow the acarya's instruction and try to

> make yourself perfect, mature. Then it will be very easy to fight out

> maya. Yes. Acaryas, they declare war against maya's activities, that maya

> instructing that "Here is wine. Here is cigarette. Here is that..."

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

On 15 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> WWW: Tulasi-priya (Devi

 

> And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very

> faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to

 

 

I completely accept this, but what I meant is acarya in the sense of how

Prabhupada was "founder-acarya" of ISKCON. That list of acaryas in BG is only

partial; it's a list of major acaryas, who "set" standards, not merely

following them. In other words, Prabhupada is the last person to set standards

for Krsna consciousness in general, for the whole world, what to speak of

ISKCON.

 

ys,

Tulasi-priya dasi

 

p.s. I'm not logging on to conferences for a while so if you could make sure

to send replies to me directly, I'd appreciate it.

[Guest guest]

On 15 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Even though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wasn't personally present all the time

> with Srial Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada was still rendering personal

> service, and following personal instructions.

 

 

So, Srila Prabhupada was following those same personal instructions after the

passing of his guru from this mortal world?

 

 

 

> Personal association doesn't need to mean actual physuical presence

> daily, as you seem to be struggling with. You had Srila Prabhupada's

> personal approval for your initiation, and you recieved personal

> instructions from him, even though he wasn't personally looking you in

> the eye at the time.

 

 

So why does the guru have to be "living" to give this type of instruction? Do

not his personal instructions live on forever in his teachings/books?

[Guest guest]

On 15 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

>

> There is the heart connection of diksa, and there is the external

> ritual acknowledging that connection. In the ritual, the guru chants

> on the beads and gives them to his disciple.

 

 

So if Srila Prabhupada did not chant on one's beads in an external ritual the

diksa can still take place in the heart?

[Guest guest]

On 15 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> I think you are obsessing on this point way beyond what is productive.

 

Please forgive this fallen, thick fool. In the future you may find it easier

to just hit the delete key on my comments.

 

 

> Of course it was books, tapes, and other devotees. So what? If I

> personally plant the seeds in my garden, or I employ someone to plant

> them for me, what is the difference? They are still my plants.

>

> Srila Prabhupada is available to everyone through his books etc as

> siksa. I think everyone agrees on that point.

 

 

I also agree on this point. But that is not the point we are discussing.

 

 

> What are you trying to

> prove by this insistence on making this point about physical presence?

 

 

First, this is important to me personally. I'm sorry if it agitates you,

Prabhu. You stated previously that diksa connection takes place in the heart

and that an "external" ritual takes place with chanting on beads, etc. But in

many cases, like mine and many of my godbrothers, there was no chanting on

beads but we have to hope that diksa took place between Srila Prabhupada and

us spiritually in the heart. This certainly seemed to be one of Srila

Prabhupada's authorized methods of giving diksa because that is exactly how it

was done in ISKCON for many disciples.

 

Secondly, I am concerned for many of Srila Prabhupada's wonderful

granddisciples who have been left in a difficult situation due to cheating

"gurus". They did not receive diksa from these cheating gurus obviously or, if

they did, it was by the grace of Srila Prabhupada in his "non-living" form. If

they did not receive diksa yet it would seem logical that they could receive

diksa from Srila Prabhupada through the heart connection you mentioned just as

my self and many other disciples did even though the external ritual (which

requires a "living" guru's presence) may not take place.

 

Thirdly, I think it is important enough to spend a bit of time discussing it

intelligently without undue emotion and narrow-mindedness or fear of some

imagined "ritvik evil monster conspiracy" which I find very childish and high

school clique consciousness - name calling. It is important for the millions

of fallen souls "out there" who have a right of access to a pure devotee like

Srila Prabhupada. This is most important. Obviously we do not seem to be

developing an excess of pure devotee gurus in present day ISKCON.

 

Does this really mean the that no one can receive diksa from him as you say

"through the heart" connection? Is "physical/living" presence required for

this? Does the "external" ritual have to take place by the same guru or can it

be performed by ritviks on behalf of the pure guru?

[Guest guest]

> Secondly, I am concerned for many of Srila Prabhupada's wonderful

> granddisciples who have been left in a difficult situation due to cheating

> "gurus". They did not receive diksa from these cheating gurus obviously

> or, if they did, it was by the grace of Srila Prabhupada in his

> "non-living" form.

 

I received Diksha from Harikesha Swami. At the time, he was in good

standing. He always simply tried to do as Prabhupada told and was,

therefore, a bona fide guru. I feel that the diksha he gave me is a bona

fide connection to the parampara. I do not feel cheated or lost, even though

he now acts in a way which contradicts Prabhupada's teachings. He taught me

the philosophy of Krishna consciousness well enough for me to understand

that he has a problem at present and does not represent the parampara.

 

I am grateful to Harikesha Swami for initiating me, always being kind to me,

and giving me guidance which, I feel, has served me well over the years and

continues to do so even after he left ISKCON. I am grateful to him for that

and I will continue to be so until I drop dead. I will not listen to what he

says as long as it contradicts what Prabhupada says in his books and

teachings, however, that does not mean that he was a "cheating guru".

Neither does it mean that I am now a diksha disciple of Prabhupada.

Prabhupada is my main siksha guru, but Harikesha Swami will remain my diksha

guru in this lifetime.That is what Prabhupad said: "He will be a regular

guru and they will be his disciple...my granddisciple."

 

Harikesha (ex) Swami and many other fallen ISKCON gurus were not malicious

"cheating gurus". They had the best intentions and did much, much more for

Prabhupad than many of us can ever dream to do. HKS suffered a lot on behalf

of Prabhupad and Prabhupad will probably never forget that, even if

Harikesha (ex)Swami is now angry at him and blaming him for the many

failures of ISKCON. I believe that these gurus were either crushed by

accepting the bad karma of too many disciples or by offending their

godbrothers.

 

Let's not commit the same mistake by minimizing the position of those

Prabhupada disciples who have accepted the duty of initiating disciples.

They are not merely officiating priests. They are regular gurus, whether

they are madhyama or uttama, as stated by Prabhupad and as such they deserve

the utmost respect. And let's make sure that initiating gurus are not

accepting too many disciples and are freed from the burden of micro

management (which also means, imho, that a guru should not be a GBC at the

same time).

 

ys Anantarupa