sevabhakta

Hare Krsna So, as always, we are faced with a broad field of possible angles and stages of approach to Sri Krsna. Below we are shown, in Madhya 24.165-177, how the "Santa Bhaktas" are "in reality" being witnessed by the eternal residents of Goloka Vrndavana. The saintly atmaramas and mystic yogis and all the Santa Bhaktas are so pleasing to Krsna, like the bees and birds of Goloka Vrnadavana who are rapt with attention to the sound of Krsna's flute. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p>165 TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> "The word atma sometimes means 'the mind.' In this case, the word atmarama means 'a person who is satisfied by mental speculation.' When such a person associates with a pure devotee, he takes to devotional service at the lotus feet of Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 166<o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> " 'Those who follow the path of great, saintly mystic yogis take to the yogic gymnastic process and begin worshiping from the abdomen, where it is said that Brahman is located. Such people are called sarkaraksa, which means that they are situated in the gross bodily conception. There are also followers of the rsi known as Aruna. Following that path, they observe the activities of the arteries. Thus they gradually rise to the heart, where subtle Brahman, Paramatma, is situated. They then worship Him. O unlimited Ananta! Better than these persons are the mystic yogis who worship You from the top of their heads. Beginning with the abdomen and proceeding through the heart, they reach the top of the head and pass through the brahma-randhra, the hole at the top of the skull. Thus yogis attain the perfectional platform and do not enter the cycle of birth and death again.'<o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.18).<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 167<o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> "Being attracted by the transcendental qualities of Krsna, yogis become great saints. At that time, not being hampered by the yogic process, they engage in unalloyed devotional service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 168 TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> "Atma also means 'endeavor.' Being attracted by Krsna's transcendental qualities, some saints make a great endeavor to come to the point of rendering service to Him.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 174 <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> "Another meaning of atma is dhrti, or endurance. A person who endeavors with endurance is atmarama. With endurance, such a person engages in devotional service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 175<o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> "The word muni also means 'bird,' and 'bumblebee.' The word nirgrantha refers to foolish people. By the mercy of Krsna, such creatures contact a sadhu [spiritual master] and thus engage in devotional service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 176<o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> " 'My dear mother, in this forest, all the birds, after rising on the beautiful branches of the trees, are closing their eyes and, not being attracted by any other sound, are simply listening to the vibration of Krsna's flute. Such birds and bees must be on the same level as great saints.'<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.21.14). This statement was made by the gopis, who were lamenting in separation from Krsna and studying how the inhabitants of Vrndavana were enjoying life like saintly persons.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 177<o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> " 'O good fortune personified! O original Personality of Godhead, all these bees are chanting about Your transcendental fame, which will purify the entire universe. Indeed, they are following Your path in the forest and are worshiping You. Actually they are all saintly persons, but now they have taken the form of bees. Although You are playing like a human being, they could not forget that You are their worshipable Deity.'<o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.15.6). Krsna and Balarama were just on the verge of boyhood and were entering the forest of Vrndavana when Krsna began to offer prayers to please Balarama.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> </o:p>

Melvin, I am glad you are interested in Gaudiya Philosophy. You personally should really get past the rudimentary "stage" of understanding of this philosophy before entering into conversations like this. So perhaps you could study up, take association of the devotees local to your area, and maybe come back here and read what others have to say from time to time, but just jumping in here and speaking about that which you don't understand yet, as if you were quite certain, will be the cause of you incurring certain reactions, you are breaking etiquette, and it just isn't very sporting of you. Hare Krsna

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The śānta-rati realization of Kṛṣṇa is in the neutral stage between the conception of impersonalism and personalism. This means that one is not very strongly attached to the personal feature of the Lord. An appreciation of the greatness of the Lord is called śānta-rati. This is attachment not to the personal feature but to the impersonal feature. Generally, one in this stage is attached to the Paramātmā feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Hare Krsna In that Nectar of Devotion verse he was decribing a state called santa-rati. In my opinion, this is not a rasa. That is why the bolded and red type words read as they are. The concept of the stage between personalism and impersonalism may also be looked at from the point of view of the process of moving from impersonalism to personalism, in stages, and the stage just before the understanding of the personal individuality of Sri Bhagavan is considered a neutral stage between the two conceptions. We see evidence of this unique neutral staging area where in the Srimad Bhagavatam he says.. And in the Gita he points out, So in this unique stage, generally, a soul is attached to the Paramatma feature when this tatastha stage between impersonalism and personalism is reached. The Christian lila is a Paramatma lila, for Jesus said he would instruct them further after he was gone through the decent of the Holy Spirit, and those who caught the essence of the teachings of Jesus have focused on meekly and submissively hearing Paramatma within. Hare Krsna

Try this one on for size Prabhus. SB 2.3.12 TRANSLATION<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Transcendental knowledge in relation with the Supreme Lord Hari is knowledge resulting in the complete suspension of the waves and whirlpools of the material modes. Such knowledge is self-satisfying due to its being free from material attachment, and being transcendental it is approved by authorities. Who could fail to be attracted?<o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> According to Bhagavad-gita (10.9) the characteristics of pure devotees are wonderful. The complete functional activities of a pure devotee are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and thus the pure devotees exchange feelings of ecstasy between themselves and relish transcendental bliss. This transcendental bliss is experienced even in the stage of devotional practice (sadhana-avastha), if properly undertaken under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master. And in the mature stage the developed transcendental feeling culminates in realization of the particular relationship with the Lord by which a living entity is originally constituted (up to the relationship of conjugal love with the Lord, which is estimated to be the highest transcendental bliss). So according to Srila Prabhupada, the rasa we may be headed for could be the highest. So that would mean that transcendentally some are already engaged in Madhurya Lila, but forget and become sadhaks. Hare Krsna

Just check out the info on the surprising Comet Holmes that just appeared, see how Pakistan is being manipulated and splintered by the western powers and the Taliban. Srila Prabhupada said Pakistan and India would be the flashpoint for Nuclear war. It is already happening, subtly, but not so much that even dullards can't see the signs. And another comet due simultaneously in Jan. 2008 http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=113678 Noone will escape being affected, up to their knees in stool, as the ground we walk upon slowly fills with the stuff over the next 3 years. Its ok, death is glorious for devotees, so we should try and make a few in the mean time. Hare Krsna

On that note, the qualification is put plainly and simply here. from Raja Vidya, The King of Knowledge, Ch 7. Therefore it is stated in Bhagavad-gita that if we at all want to learn transcendental knowledge, we must approach one who has actually seen the Absolute Truth (tad-viddhi pranipatena [bg. 4.34]). Traditionally, brahmanas are meant to be spiritual masters, but in this age of Kali, it is very difficult to find a qualified brahmana. Consequently it is very difficult to find a qualified spiritual master. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya/yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei ‘guru’ haya: [Cc. Madhya 8.128] “Whether one be a brahmana or a sudra or a sannyasi or a householder, it doesn’t matter. If he knows the science of Krsna, he’s a bona fide spiritual master.” Bhagavad-gita is the science of Krsna, and if we study it scrutinizingly with all of our argument, sense and philosophical knowledge, we will come to know that science. It is not that we are to submit ourselves blindly. The spiritual master may be self-realized and situated in the Absolute Truth, yet we have to question him in order to understand all spiritual points. If one is able to factually answer the questions about the science of Krsna, he is the spiritual master, regardless of where he is born or what he is—whether he be a brahmana or sudra or American, Indian or whatever. When we go to a doctor, we do not ask him whether he is a Hindu, Christian or brahmana. He has the qualification of a medical man, and we simply surrender, saying, “Doctor, treat me. I am suffering.” Of course we need to take into consideration that most folks are entering the process from square one, with little or no previous spiritual advancement, so the actual living process that occurs while reading the Gita in the association of one who knows its purport and obeing his instructions in order to be able to "come to know that science" implies a gradual process over time where one becomes "purified" (humility, etc.) and develops Vaisnava qualities. Then when the study is complete and they are living the Gita, they are Guru. Right now there I see alot of people either pretending to be Guru, or talking about those pretending to be Guru's, and a few fortunate ones coming to clarity on what a Guru we really have in Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita as it is, and Vaisnava sanga. Hare Krsna

Srila Prabhupada on "worship", and what it means to worship as god. KB 2.20 After taking his bath, King Yudhisthira dressed in a new silken cloth and wrapper and decorated himself with valuable jewelry. The King not only dressed himself and decorated himself, but he also gave clothing and ornaments to all the priests and to the others who had participated in the yajnas. In this way, they were all worshiped by King Yudhisthira. He constantly worshiped his friends, his family members, his relatives, his well-wishers and everyone present, and because he was a great devotee of Lord Narayana, or because he was a Vaisnava, he therefore knew how to treat everyone well. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Quest for Enlightment Ch 6, discussion. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru—a person who is a representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih. The representative of God is worshiped as God, but he never says, “I am God.” Although he is worshiped as God, he is the servant of God—God Himself is always the master. <o:p></o:p> SB 7.14.41 Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, saksad dharitvena samasta-sastraih: in all the scriptures the spiritual master, who is the best of the brahmanas, the best of the Vaisnavas, is considered to be as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This does not mean, however, that the Vaisnava thinks himself God, for this is blasphemous. Although a brahmana or Vaisnava is worshiped as being as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, such a devotee always remains a faithful servant of the Lord and never tries to enjoy the prestige that might accrue to him from being the Supreme Lord’s representative. <o:p></o:p> SB 1.3.40 Srimad-Bhagavatam is the literary incarnation of Lord Sri Krsna and is therefore nondifferent from Him. Srimad-Bhagavatam should be worshiped as respectfully as we worship the Lord. Thereby we can derive the ultimate blessings of the Lord through its careful and patient study. As God is all light, all bliss and all perfection, so also is Srimad-Bhagavatam. We can have all the transcendental light of the Supreme Brahman, Sri Krsna, from the recitation of Srimad-Bhagavatam, provided it is received through the medium of the transparent spiritual master. <o:p></o:p> SB 2.5.7 Following in the footsteps of Sri Narada Muni, one should not blindly accept his spiritual master as God Himself. A spiritual master is duly respected on a par with God, but a spiritual master claiming to be God Himself should at once be rejected. <o:p></o:p> SB 5.15.7 Since the king is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is sometimes called nara-deva, that is, the Lord as a human being. According to the Vedic injunctions, he is worshiped as God on the material platform. <o:p></o:p> Teachings of Lord Kapila, 16 This is the information given in Brahma-samhita, the prayers offered by Lord Brahma. This Brahma-samhita was accepted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who copied it when He toured South India. Formerly there were no presses to print these literatures, and these important Vedic writings were written by hand. These literatures were not very cheap, and only highly qualified brahmanas were able to keep them. They were worshiped in the temple as the sastra Deity. It is not that they were available everywhere. Now, of course, the printing press has changed all this, but nonetheless we should always understand that the granthas, the scriptures, should be worshiped as God because they are the sound incarnation of God. One should not consider Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam to be ordinary books, and one should take care of them just as carefully as one takes care of the Deity. <o:p></o:p>

vancha-kalpa-tarubhyas ca<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> krpa-sindhubhya eva ca<o:p></o:p> patitanam pavanebhyo<o:p></o:p> vaisnavebhyo namo namah May this offering please the disciples of our Srila Prabhupada, His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on this Day of his Divine Disappearance, now celebrated on the wrong day by most, but celebrated none-the-less. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada on his Disappearance Day. A bittersweet day indeed, sweet to remember him and Sri Krsna and how he lifted me from the gutter of ignorance so mercifully, bitter because of the tenacious and strident resistance on the part of myself and every devotee on this forum to take to heart that we are each supposed to be part of a cult, and who better than devotees to embody the transcendental manifestation of what is reflected pervertedly as a mundane cult. The cultic tendency of the mundane human being is to place, for pious or demoniac reasons, their own self or some other person at the center, it is called leadership. The Kings consult those they know are wiser, the Rogue goes deeply into false ego for more power and leads others who enjoy that path. Ah, but when the attractive center of a cult is Sri Krsna Caitanya, now that is a Sankirtana Party. But then the Bhakti Cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu went under ground, and was "lost" to each and every one of us envious God-rejecting westerners, until a handful of Krsna's maidservants came themselves and had mercy on us by sending their jewel like Senapati master in our midst, patita pavana Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. He brought the invitaition to membership in Mahaprabhu's Bhakti cult, on the condition we keep the his instructions as our pole star. Remembering that we did not understand anything until he came, we can see His coming to us IS EXACTLY EQUAL TO SUPERSOUL HIMSELF assessing us and then instructing us so that we could then FOLLOW or REJECT the instruction. So if we accept, we get knowledge. Just read the Gita text below where SP describes that Knowledge inspired by EITHER SCRIPTURE OR GURU is our inspiration to work. And next the CC purport where he claims sastra is the central litmus test for whether or not to accept a thing as genuine. Who is telling us this? Why do we have faith that his telling us to keep sastra at the center is what we should do? Because we knew nothing about nada before he showed up to tell it AS IT IS. We never would have been speaking the following words to each other, unless we heard it from him first. "If a spiritual master does not speak according to revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted." He was the spiritual master telling us all these things we never knew, and instructing us for our benefit, and so we have built a small lexicon and have some taste and suddenly we need to check everything he told us against the scriptures he gave us? A spiritual master DOES NOT SPEAK AGAINST revealed scripture, because anyone who does speak against scripture was certainly not a spiritual master to begin with, this is the point of that statement. Unfortunately many twist this statement into the falsity that a spiritual master can suddenly become a self-aggrandizing abuser who concocts his own version to cheat others. Similar to those who believe that one who is a bosom friend and servant of Sri Krsna can fall asleep and dream an almost neverending lucid nightmare that they are a donkey being beaten daily for some grass, a worm in stool, or some dumb white boy who thinks he knows something. Finally, later in that same purport, he lays down the criteria for remaining outside of any mundane pretender cult of personality, Including One's Own, and be able to stay centered around the true incarnation of God, Sri Krsna Caitanya. The criteria to receive this ultimate benediction includes following the instructions of the acarya. Acarya instructions at the center = Mahaprabhu at the center. Kapeesh?? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

And the Acarya who is completely surrendered to Supersoul's direction tells each and every person they meet exactly what Supersoul wanted them to hear, each according to their evolutionary moment, which Supersoul knows perfectly well, and it is certainly within Supersoul's capabilities to use his TRANSPARENT via media to impart exactly what he wants each soul to hear. This is the system. So, only a wise and fully surrendered Spiritual Master can be held blameless for the techniques such as TECHNICALLY stating the truth Like we "were" and "are" all serving Krsna in Goloka, while using the broadest definition of a few terms, which tends to baffle some less intelligent and narrow minded devotees who can't yet perceive the simultaneous oneness and difference in these statements. In terms of development of a Vedic expression of simple pious human qualities during this dark age, the "people in general" (everyone but intermediate or advanced Vaisnavas), are probably less than 15 years old by vedic standards, no matter how old their bodies are. We all needed to hear a fairy tale or two, because we were and still are rather dull. So perhaps if we can remember where we came from, it will be easier to empathize and relate with those still "dreaming" they are anywhere but present with Krsna, in some shape or form, and believing some fairy tale instead of participating directly in Krnsa's Sankirtana Lila. That said, it is nice to find some who strive to penetrate deeper and deeper to the heart of the transcendental contradictions as we learn to please the all attractive autocrat despot and liar. Sri Krsna.

If you just get ahold of your emotional "feelings" on the matter, you might come to understand that the only "realistic" manner of presenting Srila Prabhupada's teachings is to present them AS THEY ARE. Your feelings of needing to be accepted by "people in general" are nothing but a sentimental self esteem issue that you should put behind you before spouting off publicly about Srila Prabhupada's legacy. Many will reject his teachings, and Mahaprabhu. And they will reject you for repeating them like a (knowledgeable) parrot. Perhaps you should get the translations of the core scriptures from every acarya in the line, for example start with Sridhar Swami for the SB. And read their translations and commentaries. Then read what Srila Prabhupada had to say. Then put any contradictions to rest. Then preach, and you will be able to share with others according to their unique time place and circumstance in a way that will not be mundane repeating of Srila Prabhupada's words without relevance to the moment, yet will be your own paraphrase, quickly backed up by a relevant quote from scripture. Until then, you are lost in confusion, as is evidenced by the negative connotation you give to a person who follows his Guru's teaching to the letter, when that is just what the Acarya's tell us to do. BG 18.59 Translation If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be engaged in warfare. purport. No one can ascertain his destiny as the Supreme Lord can; therefore the best course is to take direction from the Supreme Lord and act. No one should neglect the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the order of the spiritual master who is the representative of God. SB 3.24.5 Purport One should accept the instruction of the spiritual master as one’s life and soul. Whether one is liberated or not liberated, one should execute the instruction of the spiritual master with great faith. Srila Prabhupada disappeared today. I am struggling to be a disciple of his, and he helps me along. To wake up and read you railing against a Guru-centric cult, when he himself said to keep the Acarya in the center tells me you are struggling too. Don't worry so much what other people may think. You have to get it right first. Then Krsna will use you to take home whoever HE wishes, and it might not be all the Karmi's you are so worried about. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna

Prabhupada said to do that at once when speaking in spiritual circles. Of course from this moment on, my only qualification is a quick folio search for the relevant purport. And then cut and paste. 20 year meat eater, I am lucky I am not drooling on myself, i'll take a mediocre memory. So being consistent, I'll take the lazy way out and just let those interested look it up themselves. It would be educational as well to imbibe the context of the nearby texts. I think I'll read that one again myself. Bhagavad Gita 17.15 purport. Something like "when discussing in spiritual circles one must at once back up one's statements with scripture." Oh, and how they should be pleasurable to hear. Hare Krsna

I didn't think so. As it is, is at it's best. Hare Krsna

Of course for some, Srila Prabhupada gave personal instruction as above. I think it is sage advice for those blinded by science, and those just inclined to a useless waste of time arguement now and then. Like yours truly. Some people misunderstand the word allegory. Here are some nice comprehensive definitions of allegory 1. Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy. Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning 2. An allegory (from Greek αλλος, , "other", and αγορευειν, agoreuein, "to speak in public") is a figurative mode of representation conveying a meaning other than the literal. So if one is to decide to GO THERE ANYWAY and waste time bothering with trying to prove or disprove the factual nature of Bhagavatam, instead of taking the essence, one must first determine which accounts in the Bhagavatam are allegorical. Remembering that characters in the Bhagavatam more often than not embody and personify abstract ideas, and the stories always have more than one layer of meaning, so good luck at that. And then the only way you can PRETEND to prove it is strictly allegory with no true literal meaning, will be to present the conclusions of a Karmi scientist which contradict some fact or two presented in the allegory. Also consider that as always, Srila Prabhupada is merciful to all, and if someone was just a little skeptical due to Karmi training, Srila Prabhupada would be willing to call the stories allegories (because they are so far different from what we experience here in Kali Yuga that it makes them much easier to accept) so he tricked us into reading them, he didn't care that he fudged a little, let them believe they are ALL allegories. Just get em focused on the essence. Hare Krsna

A dire prediction. How about giving the esteemed acarya the benefit of your doubt unless you are prepared to present contradictory translations of the Bhagavat Purana, not purports, but translations made by one or more qualified spiritual masters in the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya line in authorized disciplic succession as per page 29 of the 1972 Bhagavad Gita who's alpha and omega read #1. Krsna and #32. His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Other bona-fide Vedic texts specific to such matters, from bona-fide Vaisnava sampradayas, texts not already sabotaged by the British, could be secondary source of such information. Apply this method of verification to each instance where Srila Prabhupada "taught" some "thing" that you find dubious to your highly acute and sharply honed but defective senses that you mistakenly try to cheat others with. Have at it. Then let us know the results of your scientifically conducted research before decrying the works of a Mahabhagavat acarya. Have to be? Sounds imperative. Reconciled with tradition? You tradition-vadis tread a slippery slope and as usual wind up sitting on your brains more than we would like to see from our sanga. The first thing we need to reconcile is that part of ourself that believes it can criticize an acarya, and that part of ourself that wants to avoid offenses and make spiritual advancement. However, due diligence behooves any and all to reconcile Srila Prabhupada's conclusions with Guru Sadhu and Sastra, as he himself suggests. As a matter of fact, I suggest to all the neophytes visiting this forum that by simply and exclusively reading Srila Prabhupada's 1972 MacMillan "Bhagavad Gita As It Is", you will be properly educated as to 1. who in your life is Qualified to be considered "GURU", 2. who is a "SADHU", And then you will discover that what you just read is the first of the increasingly pure Bhakti Sastras, written by a Guru, and handed to you by a sadhu, who may someday qualify as a Guru if he meets the criteria you just read in sastra. By coincidence, I found an error in the spelling of a word in the Bhagavad Gita today. In this case another valid word resulted by the displacement of one letter. I went back and read the sentence again to be sure that there was no way the word that was printed could be reasonably construed to fit properly. Then I immediately chastised myself, because at that next moment I realized that the essence was not changed at all, and that it JUST DIDN'T MATTER. And this is the difference, probably the only one, between me and all you change-vadis out there. I know it is Maya's trap. You don't. I can just hear your mind whirring away now. "Oh but Prabhu, if it is such an obvious and glaring spelling error, how do we just let that go. EVERYONE would understand us changing THAT ONE. And it would ENHANCE the presentation, I mean just think of all the "discerning" persons who will be turned off and think it not scholarly enough." And that leads to rearranging minor grammar to make things more "fluid" and readable. And that leads in the end to the dark well where I found Jayadwaita and Dravida dasa's blatant omissions and twistings to a purport in the CC which they fully admitted were made to reflect the "current understandings in Iskcon". I say the essence was there, is still there, and keep your muddy lower minds off of the text of the books. It is just fine AS IT IS. AS IT IS. Which one of those 3 little words is so hard to understand? So, as we see, in some cases the problem IS always with the reader, as long as that reader does not feel that what IT IS is good enough. To all you changevadis, why don't you work on changing yourself into pure vaisnavas before contemplating these other changes you are simply not qualified or authorized to make. Hare Krsna

After reading the passages from the Bhagavatam I have printed below, the only mistake I possibly see is mistaking 800,000 miles for 1,600,000 miles, unless that distance doubles due to the angle created by the vector from earth to moon as compared to the earth-sun vector. Either way, it is irrelevant as he is using the karmi's measurement of approx 93 million to the sun, give or take the extra .8 to 1.6 million, and claiming, on the basis of the vedic injunction that the moon is above the sun (away from the earth) by 100,000 yojanas, that IF the Karmi's are right with their sun measurement then according to Vedic scripture they cannot have made their moon trip in the time alloted at the speed they claimed to travel at. The way to double check this for the doubters is to check previous translations of SB Canto 5 by predecessor Vaisnava acaryas and to check the Vedic scriptures other than SB which relay this information. If 100,000 yojanas above is the consensus, then that is that. I personally am not so motivated, I am fine with SB. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> SB 5.16.1 In this verse it is stated that the planetary system known as Bhu-mandala extends to the limits of the sunshine. According to modern science, the sunshine reaches earth from a distance of 93,000,000 miles. If we calculate according to this modern information, 93,000,000 miles can be considered the radius of Bhu-mandala. <o:p></o:p> SB 5.22 summary- The moon is situated 100,000 yojanas above the rays of the sunshine. Day and night on the heavenly planets and Pitrloka are calculated according to its waning and waxing. Above the moon by a distance of 200,000 yojanas are some stars, <o:p></o:p> SB 5.22.8 <o:p></o:p> TEXT evam candrama arka-gabhastibhya uparistal laksa-yojanata upalabhyamano ’rkasya samvatsara-bhuktim paksabhyam masa-bhuktim sapadarksabhyam dinenaiva paksa-bhuktim agracari drutatara-gamano bhunkte. <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> evam—thus; candrama—the moon; arka-gabhastibhyah—from the rays of the sunshine; uparistat—above; laksa-yojanatah—by a measurement of 100,000 yojanas; upalabhyamanah—being situated; arkasya—of the sun globe; samvatsara-bhuktim—the passage of one year of enjoyment; paksabhyam—by two fortnights; masa-bhuktim—the passage of one month; sapada-rksabhyam—by two and a quarter days; dinena—by a day; eva—only; paksa-bhuktim—the passage of a fortnight; agracari—moving impetuously; druta-tara-gamanah—passing more speedily; bhunkte—passes through. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION Above the rays of the sunshine by a distance of 100,000 yojanas [800,000 miles] is the moon, which travels at a speed faster than that of the sun. In two lunar fortnights the moon travels through the equivalent of a samvatsara of the sun, in two and a quarter days it passes through a month of the sun, and in one day it passes through a fortnight of the sun. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> When we take into account that the moon is 100,000 yojanas, or 800,000 miles, above the rays of the sunshine, it is very surprising that the modern excursions to the moon could be possible. Since the moon is so distant, how space vehicles could go there is a doubtful mystery. Modern scientific calculations are subject to one change after another, and therefore they are uncertain. We have to accept the calculations of the Vedic literature. These Vedic calculations are steady; the astronomical calculations made long ago and recorded in the Vedic literature are correct even now. Whether the Vedic calculations or modern ones are better may remain a mystery for others, but as far as we are concerned, we accept the Vedic calculations to be correct. <o:p></o:p> SB 5.24.2 TEXT yad adas taraner mandalam pratapatas tad vistarato yojanayutam acaksate dvadasa-sahasram somasya trayodasa-sahasram rahor yah parvani tad-vyavadhana-krd vairanubandhah surya-candramasav abhidhavati. <o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p> yat—which; adah—that; taraneh—of the sun; mandalam—globe; pratapatah—which is always distributing heat; tat—that; vistaratah—in terms of width; yojana—a distance of eight miles; ayutam—ten thousand; acaksate—they estimate; dvadasa-sahasram—20,000 yojanas (160,000 miles); somasya—of the moon; trayodasa—thirty; sahasram—one thousand; rahoh—of the planet Rahu; yah—which; parvani—on occasion; tat-vyavadhana-krt—who created an obstruction to the sun and moon at the time of the distribution of nectar; vaira-anubandhah—whose intentions are inimical; surya—the sun; candramasau—and the moon; abhidhavati—runs after them on the full-moon night and the dark-moon day. TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and Rahu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles]. Formerly, when nectar was being distributed, Rahu tried to create dissension between the sun and moon by interposing himself between them. Rahu is inimical toward both the sun and the moon, and therefore he always tries to cover the sunshine and moonshine on the dark-moon day and full-moon night. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> As stated herein, the sun extends for 10,000 yojanas, and the moon extends for twice that, or 20,000 yojanas. The word dvadasa should be understood to mean twice as much as ten, or twenty. In the opinion of Vijayadhvaja, the extent of Rahu should be twice that of the moon, or text of the Bhagavatam, Vijayadhvaja cites the following quotation concerning Rahu; rahu-soma-ravinam tu mandala dvi-gunoktitam. This means that Rahu is twice as large as the moon, which is twice as large as the sun. This is the conclusion of the commentator Vijayadhvaja. <o:p></o:p> SB 8.10.38 <o:p></o:p> PURPORT<o:p></o:p> The cloud of dust covered the entire horizon, but when drops of blood sprayed up as far as the sun, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky. A point to be observed here is that although the blood is stated to have reached the sun, it is not said to have reached the moon. Apparently, therefore, as stated elsewhere in Srimad-Bhagavatam, the sun, not the moon, is the planet nearest the earth. We have already discussed this point in many places. The sun is first, then the moon, then Mars, Jupiter and so on. The sun is supposed to be 93,000,000 miles above the surface of the earth, and from the Srimad-Bhagavatam we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles above the sun. Therefore the distance between the earth and the moon would be about 95,000,000 miles. So if a space capsule were traveling at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, how could it reach the moon in four days? At that speed, going to the moon would take at least seven months. That a space capsule on a moon excursion has reached the moon in four days is therefore impossible. <o:p></o:p> Light of the BHAGAVATA ch.48 <o:p></o:p> “The moon is too cold for the inhabitants of this earth, and therefore ordinary persons who want to go there with earthly bodies are attempting to do so in vain. Merely seeing the moon from a distance cannot enable one to understand the real situation of the moon. One has to cross Manasa Lake and then Sumeru Mountain, and only then can one trace out the orbit of the moon. Besides that, no ordinary man is allowed to enter that planet. Even those admitted there after death must have performed the prescribed duties to satisfy the pitas and devas. Yet even they are sent back to earth after a fixed duration of life-on the moon.” <o:p></o:p> Hare Krsna

So what you are saying is that the so called "proclamation" you mentioned from Srila Prabhupada regarding Vaikuntha falling is the snapshot conclusion your mind has come up with from reading the Sleepervadi threads, paraphrased, and then attributed to Srila Prabhupada verbatim, and when asked for the exact quote, you give me the above to contemplate. Sorry, I disagree with your assessment and your presentation even more, so you have not proved anything. And as for the moon quote, this part right here is telling. Prabhupada: According to our sastra, the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. Telling of what? Just yesterday I was thinking about how much we accept on blind faith when we receive quotes over the internet for which we may not have a complete vedabase to verify their veracity. And even that is subject for I have seen fatal flaws in Folio software in regards to search results, and also considering all the cheating and editing that has gone on.... so just look at that quote. Srila Prabhupada is figuring some simple math. The equation should equal to 95,000,000 miles away. That is what should be issuing from Srila Prabhupada's lips. He added 93 plus 2 and would have said Ninety Five million. Now even though it just looks like a typo, that 15 should have been 95, try imagining Srila Prabhupada speaking the word "Fifteen" after doing that math. Maybe "Eighty five" or "One hundred and five", but not fifteen. That said, your point is?? Are you trying to say that you checked sastra and that was not the proper delineation, or are you still just believing the myths proposed by Illuminati controlled Karmi scientists? Hari Bol

, Do you have the exact quote? In addition, not that it would ever trump sastra, but have you at least employed your own fallible senses in scientifically measuring the distances in question in order to speak with such authority, or did you read what some other person who cheats has flawed senses and makes mistakes wrote on the subject? Love to see that proclamation in quotes. Is that all you got?

Jaya Prabhu! Just imagine the space around the very bodily form of Sri Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana to about 3 feet in front of his body. That is the Brahmajyoti, same as the sky that is hundreds of miles away from him. It permeates everything, yet in particular is defined as the sky which pervades. So all potential reciprocal experiences that Krsna may enjoy with a devotee exist in that potential in his brahmajyoti, and as his bodily effulgence EXPANDS the potential for different experiences EXPANDS, and thus innumerable new living enties arise from his very life force, at every moment, and that new living entity contains the potential of an everlastingly fresh and unique service exchange with the Lord. Every one of us has that potential. And he creates new unique living entities at all times always, and expands himself to taste that unique reciprocation which cannot be found anywhere in his own spiritual or material sky except for right there with each different one of us. We spring from his effulgence because that is what creates the eternally fresh forms of Lila for the Lord and his devotees. The relation between the "birth" of the Jiva and the making of the "choice" between service in heaven, or a nice mayadevi in hell is another story.

Two things exist simultaneously. The story which is a multifaceted journey in itself, filled with characters who when meditated upon create portals into unique service moods that are opened to flood the devotee with nectar. and The various effects the story has, as intended by the Supreme arrangement. That these discussions may evince a regular morality in a person who hears its purport is a large portion of the intended effect, and is what maintains a temporary ephemeral society just long enough for the other purposes of the Masters of the Lila, Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. That other devotional mellows may be derived from examining these stories with that exact intent is also true. Of course a devotee advanced enough to know the difference would never downplay or obscure the moral codes on the Vaisnava path, but on the contrary would keep the confidential subject matters from the ears of those who might misunderstand and misapply those conclusions. Thanks for the conversation. Hari Bol!

Those temporary falldowns are considered to be arranged by Krsna himself to suit his purposes, the same way the real reason Maharaja Pariksit became thirsty, and Sringi lost his cool, etc. etc. was so that Sukadeva Goswami would recite the Bhagavatam. I once saw good evidence that 4 of the Pandava brothers were Indras from other universes. Demigods are considered eternal associates of the Lord. Even their actual mixed devotional status is considered a small speck on the moon of their transcendental dedication to Krsna. The field of devotion is a broad one.

As an example, I know that you don't mean all SP disciples are worse than the GM in those terms, but that is what you said. This is a common method of conversational hyperbole. The context of a conversation is often difficult to comprehend essentially by reading it on paper as opposed to being there. Not impossible, just a little more difficult. Hari Bol

Not to take away from the good points you are making in general about this phenomenon, but that particular quote does not reflect a categorical accusation by Srila Prabhupada. Although I can see how in an emotionally charged topic like this how it could be read that way, along with the other quotes thrown in from other contexts, it is potent voodoo. When he was speaking of his Big Big Godbrothers, that is not an all inclusive statement. In his mind, he knew which ones he was speaking of. And later in the quote goes on to call them sudras. Which by the way, if a sudra is submissive to whichever Vaisnava is directing him, he is a Vaisnava in good standing. So yes, these great offenders are using Srila Prabhupada's quotes in a twisted way that does not reflect the reality of his mental posture at the moment, evidenced by the quotes of praise and love regarding certain Godbrothers. So last night before taking rest I posted a sort of warning of things to come from these knuckle dragging apes, and sure enough I wake up and they are BACK to defaming Godhead, only amping it up a notch. Told ya so. Hare Krsna

Hari Bol! What a joy reading the nectar of this third page. Discussion like this allows for the descent of the true perspective to come to light. To accept that we WILL NOT understand something using our materially conditioned way of "fact" finding is the key that unlocks the true revelation, and we get to read about it from the lotus lips of our most prominent preceptors, compiled so nicely by the guardians of devotion on this forum. For a real mind bender, try to put yourself in the mental posture of a sleepervadi, where you are so bent on the "easy way" (cheap sahajyaism) that you ignore all the myriad yet relevant dimensions of Jiva-tattva as gradually experienced by an awakening Jiva, because this is the only way to continue to fool one's self into claiming identitical status with a pure advanced mahabhagavata who experiences only eternal time. (In other words, you are "already there", wink-wink) Cheap imitative Sahajyaism is not actual discipleship. If there was any following of discipline before the Sahajya tendencies took over, when chastisement from neither Acarya nor Conscience were heeded, that soul is to be considered in violation of the discipline of following the regulative principles. The Guru's order is the life and soul, so neglecting such they lose their life and sould and therefore are temporarily dead to Sri Guru's Grace, not because Sri Krsna removes his potency from that disciples life, but that the disciple chooses Maha Maya. So while those with eyes and ears will see that this battle was decisively won by the Sastravadi's here in Cyberspace, realize that the Sleepervadis MUST push on because their tremendous false egos result in a directly proportionate wholesale rejection of engaging in regulative discipline because they are already at the goal. At least that is what they tell the hundreds or thousands of followers whose emotional and physical energy they feed off of. Sure they might make a show of the regs when they are forced to keep up the image, but not always. So they MUST and WILL take the fight out of the realm of intellect where they have been summarily defeated, and attempt to squelch the source of the expression of that intellect. Yep, the "etherial biological vehicle" must be silenced, lest it keep uttering words which jeopardize the FEAST. The Feast of the Beast will not tolerate the impingement of reallity dished out by a minority handful of rag-tag and motley extremist devotees. Just remember, our resident Snooze-head, Viagra-kattah, represents the ringleader in each local area. Just try walking into your local temple during class and challenge the "pure devotee" giving their little spin on the Bhagavatam that day. Or handing out flyers at Sunday feast with a short sastrically backed synopsis of where we (conditioned souls and nitya-siddhas) come from, why the Iskcon position is techinically Sahajayism bordering on Mayavada and distortedly twists Blissful Loving service of Krsna into something so cheap and ordinary that it could be discarded at a whimsical whiff of Maha Maya's purfume that somehow wound its way into Goloka Vrndavana on a waft of material wind, though that liar Krsna promised it could not be so in his Homeland. Then you will find out how many "friends" you had in that community. Time to circle the wagons, and let sleeping dogs lie. Jaya Prabhupada

Well Spoken Gurvani and Kula, nice realizations. and Cbrahma, Srila Prabhupada once, after a long period of silence during a room conversation, spoke this simple order to the disciples present. "Become broad-minded". Hare Krsna

What's the matter Sleepyheads? Too tired out to challenge Srila Prabhupada's conclusion??