Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by sevabhakta

  1. Keep up this sahajya mentality, and you will become a monkey in Vrndaban for a punishment lifetime. Last time you suffered your material conditioning did it hurt? Of course it did. Did your repeating the mantra "I am really a gopi in Vrndaban" help to relieve that suffering? Did you suffer again after that? Bad enough you are misleading yourself to think you can escape your conditioning by jumping over the head of an Acharya, but to mislead others in the same way to deny the truth of their situation, and the only way out does not bode well for you. Personally I believe that you get one punishment lifetime as a Monkey IF and ONLY IF, you do not mislead others. For each person you convert to your Sahajya mentality, you will likely spend an additional punishment lifetime. As a monkey, you will not be able to spend even a moment in your false reverie of "I am already a gopa". You will simply suffer your ignorance every moment. And it will feel very real. Because although this realm is "like a dream", it is very REAL and so is the suffering. It will be "like a dream" when you actually awaken to your Siddha swarupa. Til then it will be just like every other day. You in the mahat tattva specualting yourself into oblivion. I wish you the best, but on your present course I am afraid of the worst for you. Please try to understand. Hari Bol
  2. Let us break this down. Quote #1. Yes, once one is in Vaikuntha proper, they don't fall. This quote actually contradicts the fairy tale. Thank you for using it. Also note that those from Vaikuntha who come to the material world actually may "think" or "dream" they are fallen. We hear this confession from all the great pure devotees, who claim they are fallen and less than worms in stool. Quote #2. Yes, when someone in their waking state as a human/demon who is within the Mahat-tattva conditioned by the mode of ignorance IMAGINES that they are in a world separate from Krsna, this is COMPARED to the act of dreaming or daydreaming. It is compared to this so we neophytes can get a reference point and understand through our mundane experience a little bit about the reality of our situation. If mundane examples could not be used by an Acharya, how would he approach us? Quote #3 This quote is way out of context but again, he is saying our separation from Krnsa is LIKE "that". LIKE meaning similar or analagous to. The use of the word "LIKE" is only used when you are not directly describing a thing, but trying to give a similar example so someone ignorant can get a reference point. I hope this helps. Hare Krsna
  3. Wow, it is 12 hours later and none of the "mates" from "fallen down under" have replied on this topic. It is so simple and crystal clear. Gaura Nitai!
  4. Amen. I mean, Hari Bol!! Srila Prabhupada said that the option to neglect Krsna according to free will is always present in the Spiritual World, but once one is fixed in loving service they NEVER choose that way. SB 2.2.31 purport: "But any devotee who enters the kingdom of God by transcendental engagement of his senses in devotional service, and who associates with the liberated souls and the Personality of Godhead there, will never be attracted to the limited surroundings of the material world." SB 4.7.29 purport: "Now he says that because his mind is fixed on the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, Visnu, he is no longer disturbed by the ordinary critics of his way of life. From this statement by Lord Siva it is understood that as long as one is on the material platform one is affected by the three modes of material nature. As soon as one is in Krsna consciousness, however, one is no longer affected by such material activities. One should therefore always be fixed in Krsna consciousness, busy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. It is guaranteed that such a devotee will never be affected by the actions and reactions of the three modes of material nature." 70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUSE OF ONE'S INDEPENDENCE. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN.
  5. My favorite quote from Srila Prabhupada on the subject. Really simplifies the matter. From Nectar of Devotion, ch 2. 1970 version Now this sädhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sädhana-bhakti is called rägänugä. Rägänugä refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ärotika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ärotika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sädhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.
  6. The kicker is that most people who argue in favor of the fairy tale were properly educated as to the meaning of the word marginal, yet conveniently consider the word loses its meaning. Others it seems consider that possessing free will automatically indicates a marginal position. However according to the simple definition of the word "marginal", there is no correlation. Service in Goloka Vrndavana and Vaikunthaloka is Full. There is no marginal service position. Everything is experienced in fullness. "Oh, playing with the cowherd boys was kind of monotonous yesterday, and Krsna is not all he cracks himself up to be. I wonder what Maya is doing today. I wonder if she has the same phone number..." Please
  7. Problem is a sahajya, who is by definition not approaching the discipline seriously, but cheaply, is using his Kama-manas conditioned mind to imagine who a parishad is, and what it would be like to follow in their footsteps. Since they had ulterior motive, they may read about parishads, and the process of raganuga sadhana, and even expound upon it, yet the TRUTH of it eludes them, no matter how many regs they can muster up to follow. Adi 9.53 purport: "But one who joins with an ulterior purpose, to get material benefit or personal gratification, will never be able to grasp the philosophy of this movement." I think now you know that the type of imagination I was referring to was not transcendental TV, but material motivated daydreaming. Hari Bol
  8. Whether one imagines one is actually a ragatmika eternal associate, or imagines they are engaged in Raganuga following of an eternal associate, it is sahajya illusion none the less. Either way, it is much easier, in the short term, than accepting who one really is in reality right now. Worm in stool comes to mind. The fairy tale opens up all the possibilities for a fertile mind, except the truth. Of course this is actually part of the brilliance of Srila Prabhupada. He was so merciful he played perfectly to his audience to engage them in chanting and spreading around his books. They will purify their conceptions with time.
  9. It seems to me that we are told of how Krsna and the liberated Acharya see our condition in order to wake us up to the theory of who we are and where we are. That theory is something our conditioned mind can grasp and we get a glimpse of our transcendental identity. That glimpse is the real thing, the theory we meditate on is still just that for us. The theory has no bearing on the reality that we are present here and still conditioned. It has no bearing on the process we must engage in to purify ourselves of the very real status of where we place our conscious attention day in and day out. As well, as has been shown, the Acharya, being a master wordsmith, is able to use terms which are broadly defined in order to start us meditating on the truth of our constitutional position, which has completely escaped us til we met him by grace. So we interpret his parable in a way that keeps us enlivened. For some that means they MUST believe they are actually already a gopa or gopi and just having a bad dream. They MUST constantly imagine in their material mind what they are doing with Krsna each day, and call it Raganuga bhakti. They MUST attempt to stifle any contradictory understanding, such as that we are all almost terminally conditioned, struggling with rajas and tamas, and only glimpse the mode of goodness on a good day. For such an understanding will ruin what inspires them to keep trying to execute devotional service. However, a word to the unwise is to keep dear to you the conception which fits you best but do not preach against what conception others find inspiring, for they may just turn around and unequivocally shatter your conception using Sastra, and leave you naked and squirming in your ignorance. Unless you are ready for that. Actually to one who claims to be aspiring for spiritual advancement, that state should be welcomed, but that is the difference between one who sees what a tenuous and terrible state they are really in and one who thinks they are already enlightened and have no work to do. Hare Krsna
  10. If one is not even fit to be a disciple, but receives the mercy of an Acharya anyway because the Acharya wants to make disciples at all costs, it would be axiomatic that the unfit person was still prone to the four defects, and thus lusty for prestige, or fame adoration and distinction. So it is a crap shoot, and as we can see in retrospect, a large group will fall quickly and hard. But we are assured that someway, someday, they will be gradually elevated. And as far as an Acharya's authority, an Acharya is an Ideal Teacher, and more. They are rare. They also do not make adjustments to the sadhana given to a sadhaka of another Acharya. Not their job. Good discussion.
  11. Great article Suchandra. It really sheds light on some of the contributing factors to the sham that the Roman Catholic Church with its militant Jesuit branch, and Popery has become. The lust for fame adoration and distinction is very powerful, and Paul traded in his old laws, which he couldn't follow, for a new set which he made up from his speculative mind, and made sure they were all in his capacity to adhere to. And he found lots of people to agree with him and set up a system for world domination to rival that of the Hebrews who had temporarily lost sight of the spirit behind their strict adherance to laws. Unfortunately, the crew in Iskcon is displaying a similar tact. May Lord Krsna have mercy on all of us.
  12. Here is another crucial point to consider, from Nectar of Devotion Ch 7 purport. Note there is no timeframe offered on the guarantee of gradual elevation, but every single ambitious monkey like disciple Srila Prabhupada created was made by his MERCY on the rest of humanity who didn't even step up to the plate. In one sense, it seems useless criticizing the GBC et al. for their endeavors unless the one criticizing is spreading the gospel and inducing people to chant himself. They may not have been fit to become disciples way back when, and may still be in the clearing stage, you know the "gradual" part and the next step is elevation to the point where they are at least fit to become disciples. That happens to be the plateau I see before me, that is still a little higher than I can leap up to, but I can understand now why everything has gone done the way it did before I even got on the scene. All glories to the merciful Acharya.
  13. "or those who leave Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in their dreams (not as their perpetual identity or body) and have such dreams be given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu." You have no proof that anyone who is participating in Sri Radha and Krsna's pasttimes in Goloka Vrndavana comes to the dreamlike mahat-tattva in anything less than their siddha-swarupa. Guruvani already proved, using Sastra, that Lord Krsna's 3 potencies are able to transmute into one another interchangeably, specifically that marginal sakti may become cit-sakti and still retain free-will, yet will NEVER exercise that free will to forget KRSNA after falling irrevocably in love with him. Even Jaya and Vijaya are not to be considered inhabiting "ethereal biological vehicles" housing their "secondary consciousness". You cannot prove such a theory by Sastra. You only back up your theory by citing broad proclamations by Srila Prabhupada from personal letters to wild-eyed neophytes, proclamations which can be interpreted in various ways when the rule of acintya bedhabheda tattva is applied. It would be a shame if you continued your one sided "lecture" in this manner. But free will is king, you decide. I wish you well in your decisions. Hare Krsna
  14. Hari Bol Sounds to me like some wishful thinking that one will just wake up one day and find that they were dreaming their rascaldom in the material world and be instantly and fully immersed in loving exchanges with Sri Krsna. Without having to purify oneself of the reason why they were in the material dream in the first place. I hate to, but have to break it to these folks that the Dream analogy is just that. A very good approximation of the situation to give us neophytes an idea of what is going on. But attaining Krsna prema is certainly not as easy as what you did when you woke from your dreams last night and got out of bed this morning. This material world is so expertly manifested that it is very real, and our conditioning is very real, and it takes alot of effort to purify ourselves and transfer our desires from sense objects to Krsna seva. Once we get serious about regulative Vaidhi sadhana and forget about the crow and tal fruit discussions, Maybe we can say we are beginning to wake up from the nightmare of the material "dream", and can even sense the pressure of our bed beneath our back and hear the far off call of the morning rooster.
  15. Obeisances to the cyber sanga. What a sensitive topic. Perhaps Srila Prabhupada himself could shed some light on the topic. Here is the only thing Srila Prabhupada actually wrote in his presentation of the Sastra (according to my Vedabase search) explaining to his audience how they were to understand this issue (time frame and context for mutual examination). This from the lips of the Current Acharya (himself), which is how we are to understand the issue, unless one is already the disciple of an Acharya who appeared prior to Srila Prabhupada, or has by grace found a self effulgent Acharya since him. For as we understand the rule in Iskcon, a disciple understands the purport of all commentary and instructions of previous Acharyas by listening to the current Acharya that they have surrendered to. CC Madhya 24.330 purport. Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura introduced the system of giving the sacred thread to a bona fide Vaisnava, and we are also following in his footsteps. The qualifications of a bona fide disciple are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.10.6) as follows:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> amanya-matsaro dakso<o:p></o:p> nirmamo drdha-sauhrdah<o:p></o:p> asatvaro 'rtha-jijnasur<o:p></o:p> anasuyur amogha-vak The disciple must have the following qualifications. He must give up interest in the material bodily conception. He must give up material lust, anger, greed, illusion, madness and envy. He should be interested only in understanding the science of God, and he should be ready to consider all points in this matter. He should no longer think, "I am this body," or, "This thing belongs to me." One must love the spiritual master with unflinching faith, and one must be very steady and fixed. The bona fide disciple should be inquisitive to understand transcendental subject matter. He must not search out faults among good qualities, and he should no longer be interested in material topics. His only interest should be Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.<o:p></o:p> As far as the mutual testing of the spiritual master and disciple is concerned, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that a bona fide disciple must be very inquisitive to understand the transcendental subject matter. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.3.21):<o:p></o:p> tasmad gurum prapadyeta<o:p></o:p> jijnasuh sreya uttamam One who is inquisitive to understand the highest goal and benefit of life must approach a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him." A serious disciple must be alert when selecting a bona fide spiritual master. He must be sure that the spiritual master can deliver all the transcendental necessities. The spiritual master must observe how inquisitive the disciple is and how eager he is to understand the transcendental subject matter. The spiritual master should study the disciple's inquisitiveness for no less than six months or a year. A spiritual master should not be very anxious to accept a disciple because of his material opulences. Sometimes a big businessman or landlord may approach a spiritual master for initiation. Those who are materially interested are called visayis (karmis), which indicates that they are very fond of sense gratification. Such visayis sometimes approach a famous guru and ask to become a disciple just as a matter of fashion. Sometimes visayis pose as disciples of a reputed spiritual master just to cover their activities and advertise themselves as advanced in spiritual knowledge. In other words, they want to attain material success. A spiritual master must be very careful in this regard. Such business is going on all over the world. The spiritual master does not accept a materially opulent disciple just to advertise the fact that he has such a big disciple. He knows that by associating with such visayi disciples, he may fall down. One who accepts a visayi disciple is not a bona fide spiritual master. Even if he is, his position may be damaged due to association with an unscrupulous visayi. If a so-called spiritual master accepts a disciple for his personal benefit or for material gain, the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple turns into a material affair, and the spiritual master becomes like a smarta-guru. So, as we can see, the so called living with the Guru, adjusted to time place and circumstance, is that Srila Prabhupada examined his aspiring disciples, either himself or through his REPRESENTATIVES. He gave the standard criteria, and expected his leading men to observe and hold new aspirants to the criteria. If an Acharya says that he is empowering others to assist him in the fulfillment of any of his duties as Acharya, that is that.
  • Create New...