sevabhakta

Srila Prabhupada placed a layer of protection in that his final decision was that all those initiated into his Iskcon movement would be his initiated disciples. Everyone else was to pass on his exact instructions, in parampara fashion, thus fulfilling the title they received, disciple of an acarya. But he could not protect against the free will choice to disobey. Any brahminically qualified disciple of Srila Prabhupada, in good standing, was to reach the height of his Varna, Brahmana Sanyassi, and thus Spiritual Master of all others by dint of his recognition of the technicality that only by accepting disciples on behalf of his Guru, as per his instructions, would he be qualified for what he would never be considered as otherwise. A spiritual master. Those of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who accept the ritvik order have better chance of acheiving the goal of the sadhana given than those who do not. Stands to reason. It is a transcendentally ironic twist of fate that the strongest symptom that any sadhana bhakta disciples of Srila Prabhupada has actually become a Pure Siksa Guru will be his recognition that the best person to turn the sinful reactions of a new aspirant over to is the person most responsible and capable of eradicating them, and that is the bonafide spiritual master. Last we checked there was one telling us to do like that. Everything else is a crapshoot. A good Siksa (Instructor) Guru instructs what the previous acarya instructs, anything less is not Guru. Hare Krsna

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport) So far we have looked at this quote from the angle that the spiritual master was unable to direct a disciple to become free, and it is a permanent rebellion. What about the other degrees of the process of "becoming" free of sinful activities. If a spiritual master was able to direct any one disciple to become free of sinful activities, and have it be so immediately, and from that moment on the disciple engaged in pure bhakti sadhana, that person would not sin and little of the Guru's time would be spent dealing with dragging that disciple out of sin and back on track. The Guru may also need to spend LESS TIME with that sadhak and be free to engage with others. So in this example we see how there is no sinful reaction to be responsible for. Largely, we see this is the exception to the rule and most of those who accept discipline are mixed in their following of those instructions but the Guru is always there to inspire even through chastisement. There are many mixed disciples and accidental fall downs and all sorts of reactions and flack the Spiritual Master has to deal with. In the quote above, it clearly states that when a DISCIPLE engages in sinful activities (aka: falls from grace), the spiritual master becomes RESPONSIBLE for those acts. But not to worry, if anyone is ABLE TO RESPOND to the ramifications of those sinful activites it is a Spiritual Master. Only such a Spiritual Master is so capable and responsible that he will accept disciples from a group of people who will most assuredly fall back to sin many times. Only such a person can love you that much. Free of sinful activities is an absolute as well. Once one is free via the path of Bhakti, it is a done deal. So that Spiritual Master is responsible and empowered to continue to show the love of the Supreme Lord through whatever means necessary. Thus responsible and capable to eventually bring that disciple through. For those who do not give up ALL sinful activities IMMEDIATELY, the Spiritual Master gives kind help throughout their probationary period of sadhana bhakti. Hare Krsna

Letters Shmetters, use your discrimination, be swanlike and strain the milk from the water, and then take some gold from a dirty place. Hari Bol

Whoa there Prabhu, please re-read what I wrote. I said it STARTS with you, meaning your willingness to accept Srila Prabhupada as YOUR acarya and YOU make a commitment to HIS idea of a society. Then if YOU are up to it, you do YOUR homework to discover what his ideas for society are, and ASSOCIATE WITH OTHERS, those who are likewise interested, thus think like you. First hint... Stay away from everyone who says it is impossible to follow the body of instructions of one acarya, and then tries to tell you to accept some other person, who will then proceed to give you another body of instructions to remember. Hare Krsna

It starts with you. And the beginning middle and end of this pure society is the following exactly of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, keeping up with any chronological changes in his orders, and associating with those who think the same way. Hare Krsna

The effective result of becoming well adjusted to vedic societal principles dispensed by the acarya is not anything like losing one's individuality in some orwellian borg like communist collective. Remember, OUR philosophy is that when false ego is absent, real ego can be present. BG 13. 8-12 from purport We are speaking about mixed devotees becoming more surrendered to sadhana, and less to subtle I me mine from false ego. Real ego is engaging in activities related to sankirtana according to one's varna and asrama. False ego is when a neophyte thinks that Srila Prabhupada's Daivi Varnasrama vision for Iskcon will lead to the loss of some sense of individuality, and talks himself into rejecting the system that will help him advance.

Hari Bol! All glories to Guru and Gauranga! First someone willingly vibrates the Holy Names and if they touch his stonelike heart that person might next willingly seek to know more about the activities of the devotees who comprise the society based on and propagating the Holy Names, and therefore take their association. Anyone who says such a person is not initiated into the culture of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the sampradaya represented by the Acaryas in Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's Siksa line are simply wrong. The next step, according to the norm of the spiritual culture, is to observe the pancaratrika viddhi prescribed according to time place and circumstance. Srila Prabhupada trained his brahminical order within Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, and the brahminically inclined were to oversee the administration of the pancaratrik viddhi because Srila Prabhupada said so, and the manifest purpose in society is that they are naturally arising opportunities for the more qualified brahmanas to interface with the other varnas and asramas in society, instructing through a meaningful and orderly ceremony wherein the exemplar of using all things in Krsna's service becomes a reality, and those instructed are respected and encouraged as they are following the religious order of things, which for a householder amounts to a very pious and devotional commitment. If Srila Prabhupada advised and integrated a particular ritual observance into his society's meaningful samskaras, then that is Pancaratrik viddhi as given by the acarya to advance one of his purposes which was to see Daivi Varnasrama dharma unfold as part and parcel of the Krsna Consciousness mission. There is spiritual advancement to be made by surrendering more of one's false ego into a pure societal process. I have seen the quote on this forum from an offical Iskcon memo where Srila Prabhupada reiterates an order which came back to him for clarification. It was 1976 and he said (paraphrase) "yes, you heard me, I want ALL GRIHASTAS TO MOVE IMMEDIATELY TO THE FARM COMMUNITIES." We also know of his fated attempt to get to Gita Nagari around Dec 76 where he only made it to Britain before falling so ill that he was forced to return to Vrndavana. The main purpose of his trip to Gita Nagari and live there for an undetermined amount of time? To teach them how to live off the land in rural vedic style. And also to recover his health by doing so. And it has been established on this forum beyond a shadow of a doubt that between 1974 and 1977 he was repeatedly emphasizing that Iskcon members be recognized and organized according to his vision of Daivi Varnasrama Dharma. To practice this we were to simply recognize the natural skills and tendencies that were already present in the members of his society and be sure they are recognized for what they are and dovetailed, instead of repressed and then later erupting pervertedly thus sabotaging our efforts. The temples were supposed to be supported by agrarian farm communities practicing cottage industry. That would constitute a micro spiritual Sankirtana society, manifested amidst Kali Yuga, and allow for the unfoldment of the process of Diksa for those willing to go further with their chanting of the maha mantra, and take the challenge of following the rules and regulations of their varna and asrama in order to advance their ecstacy. Hare Krsna

That would be whomever is preaching and backing what they say by the siddhanta as given by their own chosen acarya. As far as opinions about what is pablum and what is stronger meal, it may be somewhat relative to the perciever, but why attack a guy for what seems to be a reasonable categorization of the broad general realm of the process of instruction? Cbrahma's made this statement, "I see you have decided which of these media are pablum - and which real food." This is a poor conclusion which is unfounded based on anything Guruvani actually said.

Curious how CBrahma ignored these two public statements made in 1977 3 years after the letter to Rupanuga. They directly clear up any issue about association with Srila Sridhara Maharaja. Hare Krsna

It appears that the moderation of this board is losing it's discrimination. They will probably consider this posting a greater candidate for censorship than "melvins" rude and interruptive rantings, just because I am calling their discrimination into question. Such is the way of things. Hare Krsna

Who claimed the above anyway?? Guruvani did liken the murti to a deity in his post... Thing is, for those whose faith invokes Sri Guru in Srila Prabhupada's murti, the murti is "as good as" a deity and certainly spiritualized by the internal potency every time they interact with it. And that is a fact, Jack. So as to your original challenge, Without nitpicking, they are both alive, but not JUST LIKE each other. That is true. Simultaneously one and different. Guruvani was pointing out that a person who doesn't see the murti as alive, is just like the person who doesn't see the deity as alive. But you read more into it, and one thing led to another. Visnu tattva deities only become imbued with spiritual potency at the proper invocation of an intimate servant of the deity. If that invitation is not followed up by caring concern and worship, they reserve the right to skedoodle, and just leave a statue behind. Likewise, the same Lord Visnu reacts accordingly to those who seek shelter in their Guru through his murti, especially a murti installed by the Guru himself. I hope this clears it all up. Hare Krsna

It is not about the murti. How many gurus are there noted in the scripture? The various different animals which serve as guru. The forms that instruction can take through them. Srila Prabhupada spoke of his Guru always being available to him. People see Srila Prabhupada in visions, dreams. I suppose you will just chalk that up to some material manifestation of their neophyte psyche. The potency of Sri Guru to instruct can come through any apparent form, an ant, a brother in law, the sun, a guru's picture, or Sri Krsna in person. The lack of direct mention of the murti or picture of a saksad hari spiritual master and its transcendental nature is not evidence of its mundanity. The fact that Srila Prabhupada authorized it, and oversaw the installation tells me that that murti is a bona fide transcendental device for Sri Balarama to use as he sees fit as Guru of us all. Hare Krsna

The only way any murti "all of a sudden" acquires the properties of internal potency is when a person authorized by dint of their sincere devotion and strict adherence to their spiritual masters orders invites the Lord to be present there. These symptoms of the installer and worshipper are what the Lord respects, and then reciprocates to. If a murti was installed as per Srila Prabhupadas instructions, for one to claim it may or may not be empowered shows a great lack of understanding of the Lord's ability to act at HIS will through his pure representative. Hare Krsna

If our affinity was to a bona fide society, which was HELPING US PROGRESS, and that society was completely taken over and there was no chance to rectify it in its current form, our affinity remains to what was helping us progress. Therefore people in such a situation would naturally find an affinity toward one another, and endeavor to reconvene where they left off and continue to make advancement from there. Then there are the people who were in that society when it went sour, and were not all that gung ho about surrendering to the particular rules and regulations advocated by the Leader to begin with, and they are using the opportunity to justify an emergency speculative endeavor of their own. Good luck to the latter group. Sahajiyism is the highest form of flattery, but not such a direct way to make advancement. I look forward to meeting with those who make up the former group of down to earth honest sadhana bhaktas, and carry on the glorious Iskcon Sankirtana movement, while making the kind of advancement only a regular society can offer to neophyte and madhyama mixed devotees. Hare Krsna

What whimsy, you don't "buy" my proposition, cannot reasonably state why, yet blurt out your opinion anyway. This upstart tendency is why you are no one to judge, but if you ever got called to jury duty on such a serious issue, I am certain the gravity of truth would weigh upon you nicely. Hare Krsna

My uncle was a karmi judge. He wasn't bought off to globalists. If there was logic, reason, and evidence, he would rule for the truth. There is a chain of provable documented evidence which demonstrates reasonably and logically that the ritvik system can be considered an ecclesiastical management system, that it was ordered to remain as such, and the last will and testament strictly backs it. Any judge not yet sold out would resist the threats that would come to his life and family, and rule in the favor of those trying to remove the criminal sinister movement from Iskcon properties. Law enforcement on that issue would then be quite a show. The percentage of judges fitting that bill today are small however. The discerning devotees understand that a societal system that accomodates those of mixed devotional psychology, such as Iskcon, is based on a set of rules and regulations which must be followed strictly in order to ripen the mango of devotion. There is no other way for the true neophyte to advance. Without participating, REGULARLY, in a Sankirtana society functioning in the manner envisioned by Sri Krsna Caitanya's premier and seminal western emissary, not one of the Armchair Cyber Babaji's is going make the spiritual advancement they have the potential of making. Srila Prabhupada stressed that we spend our entire lives preaching either literally, or preaching by supporting the preachers. Then when we are qualified to go to a quiet place alone. Otherwise it is just maya. The terms "Iskcon" and "International society for Krishna Consciousness" are used profusely throughout the purports of the Bhagavatam and CC. The greatest of weight is placed upon Iskcon in relation to the development of devotional service. Often in the same paragraph he interchanges the word Iskcon with "Krsna consciousness movement". And finally this purport speaks for itself. I will only post the most relevant piece to this post, but the omitted part builds very nicely on the premise. All glories to Iskcon. Hare Krsna

Truly anyone who cannot accept descending knowledge as it is spoken to them, without "experiencing it themselves" or proving it by "kicking the tires", is in a relatively unfortunate position, his much vaunted high level of experiential ascension truly a mere speck compared to the ocean of descending grace.

Speaking of wills, Srila Prabhupada's last will and testament proclaims This makes it clear that future directors for properties in ISKCON from now on could only be selected from Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples. Clearly such a provision could only be enacted if Srila Prabhupada had also made a provision for himself to continue initiating new disciples in ISKCON. Otherwise the pool of potential directors would quickly dry up. You anti-ritviks are suffering from envy. Here is a little purport that describes how strictly we must follow the rules and regulations of sastra and the spiritual master's instructions given in regards to the society known as ISKCON, if we are to initiate ourselves solidly into the beginning stage of devotional service prerequisite to the stage wherein we experience the riper nectar of face time in Krsna's pasttimes. 24 HOURS A DAY OF REGULATIONS EQUALS DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. We need a society of like minded for support and encouragement or else we bloop. Unfortunately I have not found such a shelter in what is being passed as Iskcon centers in the few that I have visited, and here that is the norm. So what to do, hmmm?

It is obvious when the Hamsadutta dasa letter was published. I was questioning the dating of the occurance described in the letter/diary of Subal Prabhu.

I have it from a good source that in LA in 1970, Srila Prabhupada was "kept" in a room at the LA asrama for at least a few days, not allowed out, and on rationed diet, during which time "negotiations" occured whereby Srila Prabhupada was coerced into conceeding certain powers to certain of the senior men who had captured him. When was this letter written and was it related? Sherlock? Anyone?

You will know them by their symptoms and their fruits. They ultimately have one leader. Yet much authority is delegated down the pyramid in order to satisfy the greedy senses of those occupying subordinate levels of "management" (coerced obedience of underlings). The philosophy espoused by the leader is, I am greater than Krsna Visnu, Siva and Brahma, I have more power via knowledge than them in this material world and millions of souls who want to be just like me. And millions of other souls who we will work on and tempt them into this pyramid scam where no-one ever actually gets to enjoy the way I do, and will always compete to be closer to my level of enjoyment, but never get there. All will worship me as supreme lord. He is the Anti Christ/Prabhupada/Krsna. Thus driven by exhorbitant amounts of lust and greed, they set out to dominate and manipulate any object, animate or inanimate, to satisfy their endlessly expanding need for greater sense gratification at the expense of others. This organized behavior, perfected through nature, is then insinuated into piously oriented societies as a check to test the devotional mettle of the adherents to spiritual sadhana, always there to offer the GLAMOUR of SINFUL TEMPTATION DISGUISED AS EXALTED ADHERENCE TO LAWS AND REGULATIONS PLUS LICENCE TO BE SPONTANEOUS ONCE AND A WHILE WITH NO NEED TO FEAR CONSEQUENTIAL REACTIONS ON THE GROUNDS THAT GOD LOVES AND FORGIVES TEMPORARY FALLDOWNS. With the goal of adding members to a highly organized and regulated tyrannical orgy of sense gratification at the expense of the lesser fit classes with no offering of God consciousness. And thus the recruiting begins, and some of the flock stray from the fold, but only those who wanted to be cheated anyway right? Of course a heartfelt appeal might win a few back you never know. With this MO, one can look out into the world and see easily which organizations of people on planet earth fit the bill of arranging godless civilization and infiltrating young upstart experimental god-centered societies.

Hare Krsna Prabhus! That letter to Hamsadutta dasa is a bit of an enigma. Earlier in the letter he said the poison was already administered and the only solution is that some of his disciples become like Praladha Maharaja. Then he tells Hamsadutta dasa to think very deeply to figure out how to save the situation, and to work with the others to try and save the Society. So it sounds to me like if his disciples were to stay pure in their following of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, then they would be as good as Praladha Maharaja and by virtue of THAT FACT, be empowered to figure out how to act in a way that the poison would not kill the society. Any other ideas?

If you are going to utter criticism, might as well burn it out on the right target. Those last 2 posts by Theist and Ghari are reflective of criticism. A critique of my behavior. But I guess I am no possible future meal ticket, but the Big Guns over in the hallowed halls of the GBC, better toe the line with them, one day they just might listen to you and give you a spot in the big show. I actually think what he wrote was Ok, I just think that it is foolhardy to believe that disobedient disciples, forming a commitee, using edited scriptures are going to draw proper conclusions regarding all the philisophical controversies which continue to arise as a result of their lack of attention to what is important since time immemorial. Now, I know that the Prabhupada village website CLAIMS that the mission statement of those who live there includes answering any and all disagreements using Srila Prabhupada's instructions as ultimate arbiter. But in truth, that is not practiced there either. In this world, what is said and what is done are often light years apart. For the Iskcon "branch" of the sankirtana movement, those books which were to be the original and exclusive sourcebooks of practical knowledge were named clearly by Srlia Prabhupada. Until someone has comprehended the scientific philosophy therein, best to avoid taking piecemeal conclusions as springboards to studying the opinions of "other acaryas". I will trust the health of the Iskcon movement with a hand-full of Bhakta's from any exile or camp who will rally and live with that principle as their center, and lament the health of Iskcon under the auspices of any career guru's who draw up resolutions to simulate the same activity. Hare Krsna

This is a switch'em up con job using the Hegelian Dialectic of Problem-Reaction-Solution. There never was a "philisophical controversy" until someone neglected the instruction of their spiritual master. Following the order and direction of the Spiritual Master is the prerequisite factor that allows whatever degree of philosophy one gathers reading of Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam to be experienced and understood in a meaningful and revelatory way. Neglecting the order of the spiritual master puts one outside the mercy in terms of spiritual advancement, so it logically follows that without recognition, regret, repentance and reversal of this disobedience, any subsequent philosophical study would only further a twisted false ego's agenda for undue sense aggrandizement. A fallen neophyte who doesn't give a rats ass that he disobeyed, he just wants to tell people about God on his terms. In other words, such ones are the devil quoting scripture. They are easy to spot. After manipulating scripture to give artificial strength to their position, these Sky Pirates troll the sea of nescience for the flotsam and jetsam of lost and naive humanity to join em for a trip to neverland, looking for treasure instead of distributing it. Srila Prabhupada's brahminically inclined disciples were to be like Kardama Munis to their spiritual father/creator, Srila Prabhupada. Personally, I have seen enough sky pirates for one lifetime. The cheaters, their apologists/wannabees, and the cheated sure aren't going to give up their nonsense without a fight. What a circus. It was Ok to peek into their Big Top for a while, but it is just the same old act, different yuga, Yawn, Snore, zzzzzz... They just want everyone to fall back into a dreamy Sahajiya Slumber. You too can be an instant Gopi, as a matter of fact YOU ALREADY ARE, just mail us $108 dollars a week, don't read the fine print, blah, blah blah. They have wreaked havoc on Iskcon. I did a search on my folio, just the word Iskcon, 63 hits, and the first 17 are found in the below purports. SB: 4.8.54 4.8.72 4.12.48 4..22.23 4.22.24 5.8.30 5.14.4 7.2.12 7.4.30-33 9.15.25 CC- Adi 9.50, Adi 10.7, Adi 10.13, Adi 10.160, Adi 12.8, Adi 12.27, Adi 12.73 It was an enlightening experience to read these selections and see how Srila Prabhupada used the term Iskcon in his purports to Sastra. Doing so made it obvious to me that Iskcon will long outlast these buffoons, and the term Iskcon will garner the greatest respect on earth once all the dust is settled and the Founder and Acarya's instructions are taken up in earnest by a few good men. Hare Krsna

The Paramatmarama Muni's are thus on the borderline tatastha region. The stage of being a Jiva who is gradually and increasingly influenced or directed by the Lord's internal potency in the form of some stage of Paramatma realization. Between the impersonal and personal conceptions is a realm of transcendental sadhana via regulative principles. My mental speculation is that Sri Paramatma will guide all such particularly evolved Jiva's to a confirmatory experience with his Bhakti Sastras and Bona fide acaryas. All Glories to the Santa Bhaktas. Hare Krsna