realist

Yes you are right but ultimately there is only Krishna the original cause of all causes and his unlimited Vishnu-tattvas plus the unlimited marginal living entities or jiva tattvas. You are correct that most living entities never choose to activate their nitya-baddha consciousness, even though that choose is always there, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti has named them correctly. The fact is there are many different names for nitya-siddhas on different levels of bodily devotion in Goloka however, under no condirtions do any living enters originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. That is not possible because ALL living entities are originally nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.. What he has described is the different characteristic of the marginal living entity however, in all cases they are marginal, they are not Vishnu-tattva. In all cases they also have the free will to choose to reject Krishna if they desire but Srila Prabhupada explains that most NEVER reject Krishna, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti expains those with the correct terminology however from the bigger picture there are only two kinds of the marginal living entities consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport Then Srila Prabhupada explains we are all nitya-siidha but presently cannot see our perpetual real permanant bodily identity that always is serving Krishna. Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it only appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two .

Yes there is, actually ALL living entities who have chosen to be dream-avardis in the material world by forgetting Krishna and their own perpetual 'svarupa' body, are all dreaming as their nitya-baddha secondary non-Krishna Conscious self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’ Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka established in the endless 'presents' We all can use our freewill and fooolishly enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva DREAM (material creation) All of us living out our mundane dreams of grandur within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva, are ALL dream-avadis or sleep-avadis because we have ALL forgotten Krishna and our eternal DEVOTIONAL body we serve Krishna as. Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally. Srila Prabhupada -”Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency” CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Now I can read it, remember prabhu to read Srila Prabhupadas books, lectures, letters and Srimad Bhagavatam Classes. Srila Prabhupada is the link to all past acharaya's and their teachings. Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The teachings of Srila Prabhupada and all the Vedic texts are not limited by our narrow mindedness and 21st century primitive perceptions of life both in Goloka and in our nitya-baddha dream-avardi state in the mahat-tattva. Lets face the facts prabhuisical, most of the early pioneer devotees where like parrots who had no idea or realizations of Spiritual life or how the mahat-tattva worked through the fascilitation of Maha-Vishnu's dreams. We all just heard and repeated like parrots with very little realizations, not that there is anything wrong with that however, for ISKCON and the Gaudiya math to survive and not sink into stagnation and just become another 'church', we all must go to the next level, just like Prabhupada went to the next level when he progressed from the Gaudiya math and went to New York and then preahed Krishna Consiousness all over the World.

We are ALL nitya-baddha sleep or dream avardis in the material world Baba!! And will remain so until we re-establish our awareness of our original OLD consciousness as nitya siddha svarupa:pray:

Go and distribute books for Prabhupada, go out on the xmas marathon, then and only then will you be able to enter the mood of Srila Prabhupadas preaching mission. What is the use of worshipng the beautiful silagrama-sila if you do not enter the preaching mood of Lord Caitanya as shown to us by Srila Prabhupada?? Its simply the latest fad and selfishness!! wakey wakey! I risk being sacked from my 'santa' work because I put a 'Beyond Birth and Death' Book in EVERY xmas stocking, No-ones going to become introduced to Krishna Consciousness by wishful thinking, pass this on to the mad cook!! "SANKIRTAN ARENA OF PERPETUAL LIFE" "It is not the critic who counts; nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belong to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust, sweat, blood and tears; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again. Who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls, who know neither victory nor defeat." This is the difference between Srila Prabhupada and his Godbrothers

All you nitya-baddha dream-avadis out there in the mahat-tattva and the impersonal Brahmajyoti, wakey wakey stop allowing your thoughts to keep purchasing material vessels off Maha-Vishnu who sleeps and dreams on Ananta Sesa the big gigantic transcendental snakey Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by realist The mahat-tattva world of the nitya-baddha dream-avardis is only attained when one chooses to mise use their free will and forget Krishna and their own perpetual nitya siddha Krishna Conscious body which is their genuine, authentic and permanent devotional bodly self. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

I can be you (bodily vessel) you can be me (bodily vessels) and we can all be each other (Only the bodily material containments of ethereal and biological nature (vessels) The mahat-tattva world of the nitya-baddha dream-avardis is only attained when one chooses to mise use their free will and forget Krishna and their own perpetual nitya siddha Krishna Conscious body which is their genuine, authentic and permanent devotional bodly self.

There all right mate, at least they chant Hare Krishna and are in our line of Gaudiya devotional succession. Any way,we all have to work for a living, I just happen to be santa clause. I will tell you something funny. A Mataji came to Myer (just happens to be Australia's biggest department store) with her kids, a young six year old sat on my lap and told me what he wanted (the latest transformer movie) I asked him, wouldn't you rather have a story about Krishna, then chanted the first three verses of the Brahma samhita in his ear. The young boy ran back to mum saying 'santa' is a devotee, he chanted to me and told me to get a movie about Krishna when he was the boy'.

Your all dreamavardis’ and you don't even know it

Your so innocent and sweet Wakey wakey prabhusical!!, Your in a dream world and don't even know it, maybe next time around you can have my body and I can have your body and then we will know how our nitya-baddha consciousnesses felt confined to those vessels or rather dreamed in the material world of the dream-avardis:sleep: (the nitya-baddha's)

That is the conclusion of all ISKCON devotees. Respect them because their end result is to go back home back to Godhead and serve Krishna. Yesterday I chanted in a street kirtan with Narayana Maharaj disciples and it was ecstatic, they had no idea who I was, I just finished my job as a santa clause and danced with them in my santa costume for an hour.

Only a fool without any understanding of spiritual life wouldn’t understand this.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It’s simple to understand. EVERYONE'S nitya-siddha body is permanently established in the 'endless' present in Goloka. However,for those few who have been covered by their nitya-baddha restricted conscious, or non-Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and DREAMS, THEY ROAM AROUND THE MATERIAL CREATION confined to material ethereal and biological vessels for so long, it seems like an eternity. Sometimes in the ethereal or subtle body of a demigod, a biological human form, a biological dog form, a sahu form, a yogi form, a ghost form even no form dreaming a dreamless state in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. And if you duds stay long enough in the mahat-tattva, you will see its demise and be around for the next mahat-tattva cycle of stage plays where Begger can hire the bodily vessel of Guruvani and Kulapavana can hire or experience the bodily vehicle of Shakti fan. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Hey boys, don't get to attached to those material bodies you are in, they ARE a permanent fixtures of the maha-tattva (material creation) meaning they are destroyed yet again reappear in the next cycle of MAHA-TATTVA CREATION (the dreams of Maha-Vishnu). Maybe you guys can one day, in another time place, circumstance, universe and material creation experience the ethereal and bioliogical vessel of REALISTS Wakey Wakey <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You guys are so spiritual Juvenal in your PRIMITIVE understanding. Can you handle the truth of what is really going on in the material crazy DREAM-vardi world? Sridar Maharaj is/was a great Vaishnava respected by Srila Prabhupada however, his deep understanding of the shastra was nowhere near as advanced as Srila Prabhupada, Prabhupada new the essences of the Vedas and that was preaching in every town and Village of the world. I’m not being offensive or critical here, it’s just a fact

"In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. So let there be one common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krsna. And one mantra only--Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead" .Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Hatred paralyzes life; Krishna Consciousness releases it. Hatred confuses life; Krishna Consciousness harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; Krishna Consciosness illuminates it Let no man pull you low enough to hate him. Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live. Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of helping others become Krishna Conscious. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only the light of Krishna Comsciousness can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only loving selfless devotion to Krishna can do that. Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of Krishna Consciousness, or in the darkness of destructive selfishness. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. ISKCON's History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this pioneering period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad devotees, but the appalling silence of the good devotees.

If only Sridha Maharaj never said we came from a plain sheet of consciousness from the Brahmajyoti ?? Anyway what part of the states are you from or are you from somewhere else. At least we have one thing in common - We love the Srimad Bhagavatam

All glorious to the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam

Chanting Hare Krishna is the only remedy for this age of Kali

Good points you have made, thank you for your undertanding

Srila Prabhupada is all I know; he has saved me from immanent death and HELL (real hell is to forget Prabhupada and Krishna). And being his disciple DOES make me a Prabhupada man, YOU and no one else can EVER take that way from me, YOU and others can ridicule me and find all the faults in me you like because there are plenty of them, this body has committed just about EVERY sinful activity you can think of. My post I stand by and make absolutely NO apologies for. What you call offensive I call truthful and honesty. The fact is, Srila Prabhupada WAS not happy with the way he was treated by his Godbrothers, why should I say anything different just to be the nice guy and suck up to everyone? Hare Krishna

One must command respect by their humility, honesty and dedication to solely Srila Prabhupada. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Those who demand respect with external imitation and show do not deserve respect no matter whose disciple they are. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Remember, Srila Prabhupada was very critical of his Godbrothers because they never understood the preaching instructions of Lord Caitanya.. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The method of understanding shastra is Guru, Sadhu and Shastra. Spiritual life is not a democracy where 10 or 11 give their presentation on Spiritual scripture and that vote makes right, no, it is NOT like that at all. I heard one lecture in MELBOURNE by a sanyasi GBC (Ramai Swami) that suggested we not only see what Srila Prabhupada says, but also see IF other Vaishnava’s agree with Srila Prabhupada. That’s the arrogant impression this sanyasi's lecture gave.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The fact is, ISKCONS understanding of ALL previous Acharays is ONLY found through and strickly based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, AND NO ONE ELSE. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> More than 10 or 11 of his Godbrothers did not agree with him, especially on the origin of the jiva soul coming down from Goloka. ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada) certainly will never accept Sridhar Maharaja’s teachings we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti. <o:p></o:p> ISKCON is the teachings of Srila Prabhupada found in his BOOKS, MORNING WALKS AND LECTURES. If ISKCON becomes polluted by the 'outside' influences and beliefs of the Gaudiya math, then it will become arrogant and stagnated like the Gaudiya math. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada has said everything we need to know HE has given us EVERYTHING!

Maha Vishnu the ultimate dreamer <!-- End - formFullView --><TABLE id=fullSizeContainer><TBODY><TR><TD id=fullSizeCell> .........> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Remember, serve and tell everyone you meet about Krishna and never forget Him. We cannot expect a dog or cat to understand because they do not have the appropriate biological vessel that can inquire into universal creation. Faith must begin somewhere. It is a fact; only faith can reveal the real truth. In other words, if we are completely sincere we cannot be cheated. Who amongst us is ready to understand the secrets of the universe? Where does the faith come from? We all have faith, for example, when you get on a plane you have faith that the pilot can fly the plane or the doctor can perform the operation in a Hospital. Faith is there in everything. If you want to learn how to drive a car, you have faith that the instructor can show you and guide you to be a good driver. In the some way, if your faith is sincere, you will search out a teacher or guide who can nurture your Spiritual faith, encourage you to continue seeking the Devotional Krishna Conscious truth – to become totally selfless and dependant on Krishna. This is not easy. As it is said, the path to self-realization is rough and narrow and covered with stumbling blocks to test your faith. Its true what great devotees say, the truth can be right there in front of you, but without faith you will not see it, you will only see what you want to see. Our search for God or the absolute truth (Krishna) is difficult, we are all so extremely attached to the biological body we are in and we may feel threatened, if not prepared by faith in God or Krishna. Such faith comes from association. We live in a society today; I believe is collectively ready to research for the real final frontier – Krishna Consciousness. We are all already lost in material space, within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu living out our mundane dreams on a small planet in a vast universe, which in its self is a pretty amazing characteristic of our existence - however it's just a dream emanating from who one really is, long, long ago elapsed due to forgetfulness of Krishna. We made that choice, it is our doing, we wanted to branch out on our own and attempt to be the Lord and master of all we purvey Ultimately the goal is love of Krishna, or more accurately re-establishing our old Krishna consciousness we had long before we projected our desires and dreams into the illusionary material universe. The fact is, no amount of accumulation of Knowledge will reveal Krishna to us. Only through faith and loving selfless service can we realize our original relationship with God or Krishna. You may get 100% out of 100% in your written exam for your driver’s license. But without the faith in you instructor in the practical test, you will not know how to drive correctly, similarly it will not give anyone love of Krishna because only through faith and selfless commitment and service to ones Spiritual Master can that be attained. In this way, we must seek out an instructor, a living Spiritual Master if we want to expand on our faith. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada was such a genuine Spiritual guide to many and now there are those living Spiritual Masters (disciples) who continue his legacy.. Srila Prabhupada’s also says you cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading books; you must study under a medical practitioner, or his representative. Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear, you have to associate with one who knows and lives scripture; only he can knows Krishna can give Krishna. He makes it clear, if you cannot understand; you have to take lesson from one who is devotee, if not from Srila Prabhupada, then by one who knows Srila Prabhupada books. He left us his books as the guiding light to Krishna consciousness however; this must go side by side with those who follow the teachings of those books and who strictly chants the Hare Krishna Mantra at least 16 rounds a day. Those who have understood Srila Prabhupada’s books and live and breath those books, they are qualified to guide us and help us understand how to find our way back home back to Godhead. This was the principle instructions in all the ISKCON Temples he established, He could not be personally present all the time but his books are always there. Prabhupada explains further, “Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain.” Through Srila Prabhupada’s books one CAN gain access to the Absolute however, one must associate with devotees who are not lazy sitting back in comfort in their Temple satisfied only with a few followers and Sunday guests, but always seek out the humble preachers who are devoid of arrogance, pride, being idle with the longing to be worshiped and served. No it is those who are selfless humble Sanyasy’s and Gurus servants who are the sincere genuine followers and teachers of Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON society. Srila Prabhupada’s books direct the sincere enquirer of the Truth to a devotee of Krishna, from there the aspiring devotee can learn further about Him by submitting to and listen with an open mind to the Transcendental Sounds of scripture, chanting, Sankirtan, offering food to the deities. The transcendental words of Srila Prabhupada is an extended manifestation of his pure consciousness and no different than him. Those who want to understand the contents of Srila Prabhupada’s books must not loose goal of that knowledge, as the story of the scholar and the street sweeper reveal. As it is said, the path to self-realization is rough and narrow and covered with stumbling blocks to test your faith. It’s true what many devotees say, the truth can/is (be) right there in front of you, but without faith in your Spiritual Master you will not see it, you will only see what you want to see. Attachment to only Knowledge and rituals keeps ones consciousness stagnant, cold and bitter. One becomes attached to the accumulation of Knowledge and rituals that rivet’s one to their ‘imagination of what spiritual life is’ and therefore cannot see Krishna even if he was standing right their in front of them. This is because we are not attached to selfless, humble devotion to Krishna, but rather more attached to our concocted regimented imature VERSION of "surrender prabhoooo" to Krishna – there is a fine line between the real and the imaginary (imitators). Unfortunately they are bound to be self-deceived and deceive others. Instead of serving Krishna and his devotees, many follow their own mental concoction of Krishna Consciousness; they do not realize they are dreaming-up a separated and perverted imaginary ‘Krishna and the Kingdom of God’ that they have manufactured by their own understandings and speculations about scripture that is only a sentimental perverted dream and part of the material illusion, part of their own mental attachments, part of their own dream. It is difficult to wake up in our real selfless perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious selfless body by allowing the layers upon layers of our biological and ethereal material bodily vessels of selfish thoughts, desires and imaginings (nitya-baddha consciousness) to be shed. In this way, if the so called devotee is just attached to imitating Srila Prahupada and accumulating knowledge and performing of rituals, like the present fad of worshiping Shaligram shilas like one devotee does ALL day that is very inspiring and devotional however, WITHOUT PREACHING AND DISTIBUTING BOOKS, then what is the use of such SELFISH worship. Unfortunatly many who simply imitate a devotee or foolishly act out being a devotee on the level of a mundane profession for a wage only, will foolishly carry theirs errors,(still thinking they are their mundane fading material bodily identity), arrogance and puffed-up pride into the realm of ‘their’ version of Absolute Truth like many (not all) in the present day Gaudiya math did after the disappearance of. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Along these lines they marched on for decades lay back on their laurals satisfied with their few disciples and followers living out their entire life (wasting it) with so much knowledge of Krishna they could of shared with millions upon millions of others,(like Srila Prabhupada did) instead they wasted their life with their self-indulgent self-importance egotistical show of studying the scriptures. Jnan (accumulation of Knowledge) will not give anyone love of Krishna because only through faith, selflessness, devotion and complete unconditional attachment and commitment, association of devotee’s and love (surrender) for one’s Spiritual Master and Krishna can that be attained. Technically there is only one Spiritual Sky. one Brahman or Brahmajyoti and that is Goloka-Vrindavan and the surronding Vaikuntha planets. Lord Krishna and Lord Caitanya’s Personal intimate central planet is Goloka-Vrndavana and the surrounding planets is where are Vishnu planets of servitude. They are the only real (permanent) realities in the creation that is indisputable genuine and not an imaginary replication, fairytale or dream like the material universe and the Impersonal Brahmajoyti that only appear rarely within that same Spiritual Sky. Ones eyes must be smeared with selfless love to Krishna; this is the only way to regain one’s ‘old’ original consciousness. This is difficult and there is the danger of writing like this and becoming attached to the accumulation of Knowledge and missing the point all together, which is developing genuin love and devotion for God (Krishna) and selflessly serving His genuine devotee’s and telling EVERYONE you meet about Krishna.