realist

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Good points

Morning Walk, Mayapur, March 14, 1976, 760314MW.MAY:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Panca-dravida: Srila Prabhupada, what is our fortune that we've come in contact with a qualified guru? What have we done to qualify to come in contact with you?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: In other words, why do some come and others not come?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: It is the ajnata-sukrti, say. Ajnata-sukrti. You might have done something, very pious activities, which you do not know, but on the effect of...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Madhudvisa: So it seems like it's up to chance, then.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: No chance. Just like a sinful man. Some saintly person comes to him and he gives some money to him. He does not know that "I am doing very pious activity," but because he has given, he becomes pious.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: If not even a blade of grass moves unless Krsna sanctions it, then why does someone have the opportunity to perform such ajnata-sukrti, another person not?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna wants... Suppose a saintly person comes to a very sinful man. He needs some money. Immediately Krsna says, "Give him some money. He requires." So he says, "All right, sir, take it." So Krsna's desires, he gives. Unless Krsna dictates from within, how he can give?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Harisauri: So then where is the question of free will? If I want to give or not give...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: No, no, free will under Krsna. You can become free will and become a big man immediately. Your free will sanctioned by Krsna. You are not so free that whatever you like, you can do.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Madhudvisa: So even if I want to perform some ajnata-sukrti, it is only by Krsna's mercy that I will do it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (CC Madhya 19.151)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva<o:p></o:p> guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti lata bija<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As soon as he gives to a saintly person, bhakta, he immediately acquires some asset of future development. Immediately.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: If someone gives to a person for spiritual..., consciously for spiritual improvement...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: There is no question of...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: ...and the person misuses the money, does he benefit?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Eh?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Krsna, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: But that man is sincere.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Well, this word sincere, there is no meaning unless he is a devotee. Ei bala ei manda sab mano dharma: "These are all mental concoction." There is no meaning. "This man is good. This man is sincere. This man is bad. This man is..." They are all mental concoction. Only good is he who is Krsna conscious. Others all rascals.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Harisauri: So if Krsna has given the dictation, then is He dictating every sinful man to give?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Hm?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Harisauri: Is he dictating every sinful man to give?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Why do you question like that? Krsna is so foolish that He will dictate to give to a foolish, er, sinful man? It is odd question.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Harisauri: This is that point that does one come to..., does one get contact with a pure devotee and advance like that from his own free will, from accepting the mercy of the spiritual master or not?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: What does he say? Hm?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Harisauri: The point.... The point...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Somebody answer.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Jayadvaita: Not every sinful man is dictated to give money; otherwise they'd all be giving us money. They're all sinful. We'd be getting money from everyone.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: But then the question is why some and not others also?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Trivikrama: Krsna is in everyone's heart.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Gurukrpa: But some are innocent.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: That is Krsna's dictation.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Yes. And you cannot bind Krsna to dictate in a similar way. If He likes, He can ask a sinful man, "Do this." If He doesn't like, He may not act. That is Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: So ultimately it is simply by the mercy of Krsna...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Revatinandana: ...that he comes back to Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Yes. So it is Krsna's business where to show mercy, where not to show. You cannot oblige Him that "You show mercy everywhere." No. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah. Krsna.... You cannot oblige Krsna, "You do this." That is not Krsna. That is not Krsna. If one is obliged to act to your dictation, then he is not Krsna. Therefore whatever Krsna likes, He'll do. You cannot oblige Him that "You have to do it." No. That is karma-mimamsa, that "If good work gives good result, so why should we care for Krsna? We shall do the good work." That is... Ordinary people, they think like that. Karma-mimamsa. "If I do good work, Krsna will be obliged to give me good effect. Why shall I care for Krsna?" That is karma-mimamsa. "Work is final. Do good work, that's all." They say like that. But we say, even if you do good work, if Krsna does not want it, then it will not produce good result. That is Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Trivikrama: We don't have the mercy of Krsna yet, so...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone has got the mercy, but that mercy is not obligatory. If He likes, He can give you mercy; if He does not like, He may not.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Trivikrama: But everyone has it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Everyone... He is giving mercy. That is general. But if He does not like, He may not give you. You cannot make Him obliged.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Panca-dravida: So why is it, then, if it's a question of ajnata-sukrti... The Indians, from their birth they're watering Tulasi, they're chanting Hare Krsna, they're doing so many activities, but mostly your disciples are foreigners?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: So that... No, means that is temporary. They may come again. It will never go in vain. Just like this cloud. Cloud is meant for raining. Now it is not raining, but when there is sufficient cloud, it will rain. You cannot say there is no rain. There is, but it is not sufficiently collected. When it is sufficiently collected, then.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Giriraja Swami, Nectar of Devotion course, Vrindavan 1994(?): Well, there's something called ajnata-sukrti, which means some activity that's favorable to Krsna consciousness in which the person is not aware of the fact that he is doing devotional service. So, in a broad definition of bhakti, just like someone sees a devotee and he just appreciates that the devotee is nice, so that appreciation... one makes advancement by that appreciation, but he doesn't know that the person is a devotee and that he is engaged in devotional service, but he just appreciates the person, so the person makes advancement. Now whether we want to say that's devotional service or something preliminary to devotional service, it would depend, because definitions can be more broad or more narrow and when Srila Prabhupada is in a more generous mood, he may call it devotional service, but when he's discussing in a more strict way, it becomes like a preliminary activity and when enough of such preliminary activities accumulate, then one can engage in devotional service. But you see it can't be considered pious activity, because devotional service isn't caused by anything material, so no amount of pious activity can cause devotional service to manifest. But these activities, they're like devotional service, but they're not exactly devotional service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ...they're favorable to the devotee, the devotee is related to Krsna, so therefore they're favorable to Krsna and Krsna will be pleased, that "O, he's appreciating My devotee..."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said that there are two types of fortunate activities. One which leads to bhakti and one which doesn't lead to bhakti and the type that doesn't lead to bhakti is not really fortunate. So activities like giving in charity may help or they may not help, but ajnata-sukrti, which means activities favorable to Krsna consciousness done without knowledge, that will definitely lead to Krsna consciousness. Just like when Srila Prabhupada went to New York - at one of the programs he wanted to sell his books after the program, so he asked someone in the audience to help him sell his books. So the person didn't know what is Krsna consciousness, who is Srila Prabhupada, what is devotional service, but he did unknowingly something. So that's ajnata-sukrti and when such ajnata-sukrti accumulates, then one becomes very open to Krsna consciousness.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Pious activity, especially in relation to pure devotees, makes one fortunate. But we cannot say that... I'll give an example: the same topic was discussed with Srila Prabhupada. And Srila Prabhupada was saying, that you cannot say that bhakti is caused by karma, because that would mean that bhakti is subservient to karma; that means that Krsna has to give bhakti. So this is the karma-mimamsa theory: that everything is karma and if one does good karma, God has to give the result. So don't care for God, just care for karma. So that's the karma-mimamsa theory. So if bhakti were, if one could get bhakti by karma, then where is Krsna, where is Krsna's independence. So Srila Prabhupada gave the example that ajnata-sukrti, it accumulates. Like sometimes we see many pious people in India, people who are more pious than we were. They chant, they pour water on Tulasidevi and they're vegetarian and so many things. But they don't actually take to devotional service. But Srila Prabhupada said "Yes, but whatever they are doing is not going in vain. It's all good<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So Raghubir Prabhu also made a good point, that with a moment's association, you can get some ajnata-sukrti and ultimately the ajnata-sukrti could lead to bhakti. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Karma-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from pious acts<o:p></o:p> Jnana-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from the cultivation of knowledge<o:p></o:p> Bhakty-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from devotional activities

Srila Prabhupada - "So this is the karma-mimamsa theory: that everything is karma and if one does good karma, God has to give the result. So don't care for God, just care for karma. So that's the karma-mimamsa theory. So if bhakti were, if one could get bhakti by karma, then where is Krsna, where is Krsna's independence".

Stop being a snake in the grass BhaktiK, just because you can't defeat others, who ever they are, you go all snakey, we all see through imaturity. Try to keep to shastra Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by SHIVA After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada. " "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26 Now is there anything clearer than the above? This kind of rhetoric gives us a taste of the dismal philosophical outlook to follow in Balavidya's thesis. He simply dismisses everyone as fake disciples, rascals, and dumb fools, if they do not accept the above statement from Srila Prabhupada as the sole final word on the matter. Well, what about the countless times Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha? I guess that doesn't matter to Balavidya dasa. Nevertheless those statements are real and are not the product of stupid people's fantasies. Do we get some type of reason to consider that all of those statements by Srila Prabhupada which are contradictory to the above statement should be neglected? Or that they mean something other then what Srila Prabhupada said? In his own way I guess the next part of his thesis is Balavidya's attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictory claims on the origin of the jiva by Srila Prabhupada. He takes to the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in order to prove his point, specifically Jaiva Dharma. First off I would like to know whose translation he is using. The translations available for free on the Internet (one by the Gaudiya Math and another by HH Narayana Maharaja) is not the translation he is using. Both of those translations are similar, but they differ a bit in the wording. The translation Balavidya dasa is using differs profoundly from those translations. In fact, the translation he is using is putting forth a philosophy which seems to me to be contradictory to basic Gaudiya tattva. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna Wow, if we could really achieve this prideless selfless level, we could help make the whole world Krishna Conscious Wonderfully inspiring post suchandra

Interesting

http://www.smh.com.au/multimedia/2008/world/anandalila-salter/index.html

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The above is pretty simple to read, it makes complete sense however, are you ready to understand these truths revealing our origins? We certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

The above is 100% correct but it depends on personal realization if the above words are to make sense. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> With all due respect to Balavidya dasa (ACBSP) Guruvani, Beggar, Shakti-Fan and possibly even Narayana Maharaja, it appears they cannot understand because they do not have the realization that all living entities who come to the material creation, ALL come down from Vaikuntha or Goloka (from the pastimes of Lord Krishna) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although Narayana Maharaja once did say that in 'reality', in 'Goloka Vrndavana dhama', these things will be seen in another way". <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Balavidya dasa with what I have read of his 'emotionally charged ideas' cannot understand what the 'eternal presents' means. Understanding that is where the secret is found to understand we ARE always with Krishna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this silly debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, can one truly understand we have all come from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna. <o:p></o:p> Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Remember, only by personal realization through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada can this be realized<o:p></o:p>

Yes this is the real essence that lays the foundation for one to become Krsna Conscious.

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. A real devotee intelligently knows he is the most fallen due so many life's he/she has had in this material world, knowing that one has compromised his/hers spiritual PRINCIPLES on many many, many occasions over many births, committing just about every sinful act imaginable. Even still, such a soul longs for the land of Vrndavana, knowing that to be his/hers real home, where one's perpetual 'svarupa' is eternally established beyond this material dream, that is made up of the envious, LUSTY and the MATERIALLY motivated Originally Posted by Svarupa Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport”". From the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their perpetual 'svarupa body, or real identity in Goloka, always remains there eternally established in the endless 'present', even if they have chosen to enter the material creation of selfish imagination of divided time and space. Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: - The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva. It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way. Gaura Premanande Shakti-Fan - Prabhupada also tells like this in the scriptures, but obviously he has also given the way things are seen in Goloka Vrndavana dhama. So he gives both according to which one is applicable according to time, place and circumstance. If we just give one viewpoint then we must twist his words to make them fit everywhere </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Both viewpoints are right!!

Quote:Originally Posted by Sarva gattah <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>I do not think Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesha, Bhagavan, Ramesvara, Hunsaduttah, Tamal and even Jayatirtha 'planned' their attempts to have Empires and 'yes' servants, they were all dedicated sincere genuin disciples of Srila Prabhupada but NEVER realized what it meant to be a humble servant of the servant of Krishna. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Their external 'show' of advancement way out paced their internal level of Krishna Consciousness; therefore the facade and imitation could not last. It is something they never planned, it's just that their real internal level of Krishna Consciousness eventually came to light and revealed that they where not that advanced at all. It has to be real to have potency to last and change the world into Krishna Consciousness over the long term </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

We all must stop trying to imitate advanced devotees when it is obvious most ISKCON devotees are so attached to thinking THEY are their material body and it’s dreaded mental platform. Many will hate the sinful biological body, but only an uneducated ‘worldly’ fool will hate who we really are trapped within the vessel we occupy. In this way, only when this is understood in this sinful material world, (understanding we are NOT these material bodies) will ISKCON start beginning to have a major effect on this planet, and begin to climb out of its present idle slow growth sad state of affairs. Hare Krsna ----

suchandra the Instructive story of Panchatantra, " love once betrayed cannot be regained", it's over, finished, done, gone, out", is nonsense, you are not intelligently looking at the bigger picture. You sound lIke a Christian who claims we burn in eternally in hell. That is a vengful angry nasty god where as through the teachings of Srimad Bhagavatam "love once betrayed CAN be regained!!" After all, we betrayed Krishna by choosing to come to the material world. Theist explains this fact In the material world nothing is set, Karma is temporary so Love Once Betrayed Cannot Be Regained? is NOT always the case. Why? Because the concept of 'betrayal' is a material thing and memorary of it will eventually fade away with the passing of time and will be forgotten. Love will always be regained EVEN IN THIS LIFE or in the next life or maybe after many lifes of experiencing bad karma. In other words, love that has been betrayed in a previous life and in this life can and will always be eventually regained in this material world and even again in this life if one is spiritual advance enough to hate the sin but not the sinner. To spread the causless mercy of Lord Caitanya a devotee must think this way and achieve what many thought was impossible. The lesson is that love once betrayed can be regained by recieving the mercy of Lord Caitanya again even after offending and betraying devotee's. So never write anyone off.

Beware of imitators, pretenders and parrot sterotypes in devotee garb. A man or women is judged by the content of their Krishna Conscious character and NOT by whether they live in or outside a GAUDIYA MATH or ISKCON Temples, or by the cloths they wear and the Vedic knowledge and sloka's they repeat. One is judged by their selfless genuin Krishna conscious concern for others, devoid of imitating great saintly personalities as a weekend 'sadu's'. The geniun souls will tell EVERYONE they meet about Krishna 24/7 The following is an interesting article by Raga devi dasi (Alachua, Florida) Posted on Chakra on December 18, 2007 I couldn't agree more with the short article "Psychological Testing Needed for Temple Offices" featured the other day by Alice Ahola from Finland. Unfortunately for all of us, ISKCON has known much abuse -- and not of children alone; many adults have experienced it as well. Due to overly intense managers who really abused their rank and power, or whose priorities were mostly on externals and "performance" and little else, many of us adults who have lived in temples are now very disappointed and "walking wounded" also. Others have simply dreaded surrendering ourselves fully to managerial discretion, knowing how harsh and biased it can sometimes be. Still, there's another side to all of this. Understanding karma, its pervasiveness, its exactness and how it works, and living in a temple while chanting Hare Krishna may immensely expedite the burning off of our karma -- making very uncomfortable situations. We can meet our own dark sides or dark sides from prior lives in an abusive manager or right at the temple Krishna can arrange to balance an account or debt we had to someone else. This thought, I believe, was held by my brilliant guru-maharaja HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami. I nevertheless think that Bhaktin Alice came up with an excellent suggestion. Some psychological testing should be done, and also some training, as is the system of varna-ashrama dharma anyway. All I'd like to add to this is that we should be sure to remember the basics. The material world is a struggle for existence and a place of envy. Temples are meant to be spiritual embassies but don't always accomplish this. Managers have a lot of grief too; it's not all glamour and glory. I can't imagine the burdens some of them take on. Then, too, if we have a strong preaching spirit, sometimes we're literally being kicked away from a temple by Krishna Himself -- wanting to situate us in a place we can be of much more service and impact. May Bhaktin Alice forgive my presumptions, but I hope she will consider these factors also. Just as important, we ought not to hide away in a Hare Krishna temple and then complain. Prabhupada's mission also needs outside, visible devotees who will take up his torch in the secular world. Above all, let's not forget that before taking a guru and serving him or her, one's karmic fan is still plugged in and spinning at full force. Seeing things clearly as they are requires a full cleansing of our consciousness. This is still my aspiration after 22 years of chanting Hare Krishna: to read and chant more and to beware of finding fault unnecessarily. By Raga devi dasi (Alachua, Florida) Posted December 18, 2007

These are the facts that many of the above CANNOT address with their show of jnan, juggling of words, sloka’s and purports “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia “The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation) or a dormant state of individual consciousness in the Impersonal feature of the Brahmajyoti, which is also temporary. Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension, one where we can actually act as nitya siddha. No, we are still old, feeble, cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones, but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and remorseful Sri Duryodhana. We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously trying to find a tow truck that can make it up the muddy road to get the beater oldsmobile to the mechanic. The guy pushing metal cars that don't run anymore didn't fall from anywhere, and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position. It's the same person. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0> Originally Posted by CCC Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> There's your conclusion above by CCC

Interesting true points made by Svarupa that is further verified by Kurma Jan 11, AUSTRALIA (SUN) — Whilst ISKCON has the good the bad and the ugly, it also has many not so famous devotees, first generation disciples of Srila Prabhupada who were not so ambitious to equate themselves as on the level of Srila Prabhupada I believe this is a very important point, because whilst the society has so many devotees who have cheated, lied, and done so many abominable things, with so many to support and back up the cheating, there is still great hope and opportunity for us all. Srila Prabhupada's real spiritual warriors and masters are perhaps to be found amongst his disciples who weren't so ambitious and greedy for positions and fame, and also amongst those who have redeemed themselves. ISKCON still has so many beautiful and gifted first generation devotees who we can take so much guidance and shelter from. You won't find these devotees on tour, or out there trying to further themselves for personal gratification, but they are there working tirelessly for Srila Prabhupada in some capacity or another. Srila Prabhupada created so many devotees, let's not be fooled into thinking they were all so famous, and household names that have been embedded in our thinking by the bogus guru system. May we seek out those great souls who really and truly understood the purport they were given by Srila Prabhupada, because they are the real maha-bhagavatas that will save us all! Kurma

You could all do what I did if this subject interests you, just humbly ask Jewish people down the local shopping centre and in the process tell them about Krishna. By the way all of them believe in reincarnation saying that as long as we have unfinished business and desires in this material world, then we must come back and take birth again. I also found out that most detest 'so called' Christians and Muslims because of the many attempts of genocide against their faith over the last thousand years or so

Hey matarisvan, I really don't know why you are on these threads speaking your nonsense, at least get your quote right! This is what Gauragopala dasa wrote

When you think about it, Srila Prabhupada came to the West because there was a deep longing among the 50s and 60s LOST youth for answers to what in the hell is going on within the material world. Why are we here? Where did we come from? where are we going? I Know I had that desire to find the answers. One evening while listening to George Harrison singing 'My Sweet Lord', I happened to watch Srila Prabhupada arriving at an airport surrounded by loving devotees on TV, I new at that moment that this holy man is my Spiritual Master. The fact is he came to the West because we all were desperately seeking the truth.

Excellent thread!!

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> A mundane example of how this works is, if a young boy plays a video game, the programming, graphics and each possible pathway in that game that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into that game. The player of that game can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character within the boundaries of that game he desires to play that has already been created by the graphics designer – we have all played video games, I think you get the drift of what I’m saying. The game has already been created by its designer; we just enter that game and then play it the way we choose. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu The material bodies we presently occupy and ride around in are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such 'MATERIAL' vessels to correspond with the material desires and dreams of the souls who have chosen to come down from Goloka to experience their mistaken selfish desires as a passenger in one of Maha-Vishnu's bodily containers or vessel</td></tr></tbody></table> Thus ends the discussion on this thread