Svarupa

Here is some nonsense Narayana Maharaj preaches Narayana Maharaja: "So I want to say that your Prabhupada has given those things, only these things, and not beyond these things, then he was only the servant of Maha-Vishnu" he was not actually a servant of Krishna, but only a servant of Maha-Vishnu?

Prabhupada wrote so many things and was always nice to Sridar Maharaj but never trusted him in fact Prabhupada says that Sridhar Maharaj ruined the Gaudiya math Sridhar Maharaj's presentation of the origin of the soul is not only wrong, it is impersonal and nonsense. Too many Westerners are sucked in by little old Indian men dressed as Sadhu's (this is not refering to Sridar or Narayana Maharaja's). Unlike those lazy old fools, Prabhupada came to the West earnt recognition through struggle and hard ship and I pray the present ISKCON leadership does not allow that to be highjacked by fools and upstarts in the Gaudiya math. Hare Krsna

The living entity falls 'consciously' from above depiction of Goloka to enter the mahat-tattva The Vaikuntha planets and the central Goloka Vrndavana planet of Radha and Krsna (above) take up 75% of the Spiritual Sky and is timeless (the eternal present where there is no past or future – only the eternal ‘now’ which means EVERY living entity is already and perpetually in Goloka AS their nitya siddha body serving Krishna. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> The impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the individual baddha-jivas in a dreamless state of consciousness attained ONLY after passing through the various bodily mahat-tattva vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu. This is difficult to comprehend, just because someone is born in India and is a life long Vaishnava like Narayana Maharaj, does not mean he must know the meaning and origins of life. To the contrary, India is a corrupt place full of people masquerading as devotees of Krsna who never understood their own Vedas, that is until Srila Prabhupada came to America and with his Western disciples, again restarted the bonafide teachings of Vedanta back in India.

No, the living entity, as their secondary baddha-jiva consciousness, enters the mahat-tattva, which is in one cornor of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky, coming down OR ORIGINATING from Vaikuntha. In other words, THE LIVING ENTITY is simultaneously their eternal svarupa bodily identity in the Vaikuntha portion of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky while they are dreaming as the baddha-jiva that enters the mahat-tattva or material creation. The mahat tattva takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky and is under the control of time (past, present and future) Above is Maha-Vishnu and His mahat-tattva temporary creation that takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti

Photo Mayapur March 10, 2008 Letter to Madhudvisa (then Swami) in Australia 1972 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position (with Krsna eternally in Goloka). Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed". Letter Madhudvisa in Australia 1972 Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha“.Mayapur, February 18, 1977-“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” SB 8.24.48<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara weds Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109 It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha

Come on boys and girls like Beggar and his good wife Shakt fan, let throw a veggie burger on the barbi and argue the point, no glocks allowed - yet

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - 1. internal, 2. marginal and 3. external. 1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia. 2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities. 3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva) Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109 It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha by clearly understanding the following - The three varieties of energies of Lord Krishna are therefore Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha. Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be inbetween the Superior and inferior. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual creation or Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation. Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies. The life force from the Superior plain (Krishna and His expansions like Maha-Vishnu) and the marginal plain (the jiva-tatastha in their secondary nitya-baddha DREAMING conscious projection [except of course a nitya-siddha devotee in Krishna's lila in the mahat-tattva like Srila Prabhupada]) ALL move the inferior energies (material) that has no life. There are only two types of living beings in ALL of Krishna's perpetual creation, Vishnu tattva's and jiva tattva's (MARGINAL living beings Srila Prabhupada. - “The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. <o:p></o:p> Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Vishnu. <o:p></o:p> These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974 <o:p></o:p> Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter sent to Upendra prabhu <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport <o:p></o:p> Then Srila Prabhupada explains.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 <o:p></o:p> “The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 <o:p></o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. <o:p></o:p> The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move. <o:p></o:p> It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is” <o:p></o:p> I associated with Padmalochan Prabhu in Vrndavana. He was a very knowledgeable therefore his understanding of Vrndavana and Srila Prabhupada’s books can only have become more nectarine over the years. <o:p></o:p> The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; putting the DVD player on hold or pause, let me explain -.It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation. <o:p></o:p> This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. <o:p></o:p> In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there. Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara weds

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana] In the contest between sruti (Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad) and the often conflicting comments of Srila Prabhupada, one must accept the sruti as the ultimate authority. Anything else is shastra-ninda. Svarupa-ji... Prabhupada explains clearly we have come down from Goloka. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Yes Kulapavana prabhu finally you have understood as explained below - Srila Prabhupada means by this comment is that we actually are ALWAYS in Goloka and that sometimes we may ‘think’, ‘dream’ or ‘imagine we are not ALWAYS with Krsna. It is because of that state of mind ONLY we think we are fallen, but actually we have not fallen anywhere, we only have dreamt we have, thats what Prabhupada REALLY MEANS when he says “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada means by this comment that we actually are ALWAYS in Goloka and that sometimes we may ‘think’, ‘dream’ or ‘imagine we are not ALWAYS with Krsna. It is because of that state of mind ONLY we think we are fallen, but actually we have not fallen anywhere, we only have dreamt we have, thats what Prabhupada REALLY MEANS when he says “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam canto 8 chapter 1 text 9 purport.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self. The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self of ones marginal identity while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time is that the nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna, while the nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is eternally conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm in either a conscious Impersonal inactive dormant condition, where one is not aware of past, present and future or within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the nitya-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels that He provides so one can actively act out their dreams within His mahat-tattva.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As already explained, the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay, both are temporary conditions because the nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya badda as one moderator misunderstood, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because everyone is always nitya-siddha and only DREAM they are nitya baddha. The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuin identity perpetually. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness on the other hand enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.and is given ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams real but subject to decay or real but temporary. At the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka.in the eternal 'present'.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Unfortunately even many ISKCON devotees cannot understand this and choose to not get involved. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand. We must remember that ISKCON is only in the very early pioneering stages and many great souls are waiting for the right time to take birth when they feel their Spiritual development is protected and nurtured with eyes open with knowledge and devotion and not imitation. The ISKCON movement will attract great souls as devotees become genuinely pure, humble and strong without imitation. There is a great Spiritual change coming!<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve Krishna or reject Krishna. From the nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily point of view, the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness simply does not exist; it’s not even an illusion to them because such an illusion does not exist as part of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body. This is important to understand.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> On the other hand, the nitya-siddha devotee’s are aware of the dark cloud in Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is real but only a temporary manifestation and is a place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams go to be embodied and pursued. The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as, because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject Him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

Krsna is in everyones heart, his twin brother is just as good

Al Gore the bore with the flappin jaw

This from the Vatican!!??

Suchandra you will find that famous martin Lurther King quote under all of realists postings. Why can't ypu understand, you must be either very yong or innocent or both. We live in a world full of selfishness, envy and hate and seeing the devotee takes us above all that or does it?? Bhavananda prabhu left hand corner

All glorious to the protecter of devotees His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

This Mat Wade sounds like a devotee

A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. A real devotee intelligently knows he is the most fallen due so many life's he/she has had in this material world, knowing that one has compromised his/hers spiritual PRINCIPLES on many many, many occasions over many births, committing just about every sinful act imaginable. Even still, such a soul longs for the land of Vrndavana, knowing that to be his/hers real home, where one's perpetual 'svarupa' is eternally established beyond this material dream, that is made up of the envious, LUSTY and the MATERIALLY motivated

Love or SERVICE to Krishna’s DEVOTEE’S is something that can never be imitated by dressing up like Prabhupada and pretending to be him in speech and actions. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Many of us have experienced such arrogant and puffed up pioneering imitators or pretenders over the years however, not to worry because the present version of ISKCON and the Gaudiya math are only in their very early pioneering stages.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> A real devotee will command respect with selfless love by their HUMBLE ATTITUDE and genuine concern for the spiritual welfare of ALL others. They will NEVER demand respect off anyone.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Those who DEMAND RESPECT, only associate with the weak minded who they can easily manipulate and others they always patronize by pulling the wool over their eyes and talking down to them with their proud noses in the air. The aspiring devotee they find difficult to manipulate, becomes emotionless like a stone with feelings of total insecurity due to constant emotional abuse.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Such an aspiring devotee is psychologically scarred so much, that they consider themselves useless and so far 'down there and out there', that out of fear they 'surrender out of fear', artificially to the demands and whims of those puffed up imitators who see themselves as 'so called' Gods gift to this world!! <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> World History has shown us, that EXPLOITATION that DEMANDS worship, service, obedience and respect, under the disguise of helping others, will down the track, only led to bitterness, revenge, murder and wars.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although fortunately, there are many great caring devotees on this planet presently, who are dedicated selfless humble preachers of Lord Caitanya who always will spread His Sankirtan Movement all over the world.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So lets all be very careful how we treat others. Everyone we meet, we should somehow mention KRISHNA'S name. HARE KRISHNA

Hare Krishna

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa I was referring to the holiday period by saying Xmas, which is what it is called. Where as Christ-mass is referring to Jesus and the celebration of his birth, I respect Jesus however, I am no longer interested in mundane materialist religions anymore, that feast off the flesh of cows. Hare Krishna </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> I think you miss understood what I was saying; it is not Jesus I was criticizing but those who use his name to promote their materialistic values, like killing the cow. Theist understood what I meant if you go back over the thread. As far as I know, there is no information that Jesus consumed meat. Maybe fish but even that is allowed in a desert climate with no vegetation if that is all there is to sustain life, however you just can’t offer that to Krishna. It's not Jesus I'm criticizing but those who do their nonsense in the NAME of Jesus, it is them that are the mundane materialistic religions. This is what I meant when I said - I respect Jesus however, I am no longer interested in mundane materialist religions anymore that feast off the flesh of cows. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Ghari it is corrected, if you get my drift Interesting reading

I was referring to the holiday period by saying Xmas, which is what it is called. Where as Christ-mass is referring to Jesus and the celebration of his birth, I respect Jesus however, I am no longer interested in mundane materialist religions anymore, that feast off the flesh of cows. Your dedicated writting on these threads are important and very interesting reading Hare Krishna

In the Talmud, "gilgul neshamot" (i.e., reincarnation) is constantly mentioned. The term literally means "the judgment of the revolutions of the souls." In this view, people who had committed extraordinary sins were given an opportunity to return to life in order to set things right. More particularly, they were reincarnated in circumstances similar to those of their previous incarnation. Thus, Moses and Jethro, for example, were supposed to be the gilgulim of Cain and Abel.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Rabbi Manasseh Ben Israel (1604-1657), one of the most revered Rabbis in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>, states in his book entitled Nishmat Hayyim: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "The belief or the doctrine of the transmigration of souls, is a firm and infallible dogma accepted by the whole assemblage of our church with one accord, so that there is none to be found who would dare to deny it ... Indeed, there is a great number of sages in Israel who hold firm to this doctrine so that they made it a dogma, a fundamental point of our religion. We are therefore in duty bound to obey and to accept this dogma with acclamation ... as the truth of it has been incontestably demonstrated by the Zohar, and all books of the Kabalists." (Nishmat Hayyim)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is important to note that I am only continuing this subject because it can help the devotees of Krishna preach in the strong Christian influenced Countries, like the Bible belt of the American South, pointing out that because Jesus was a Jew, then he also believed in reincarnation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We have to be careful here, as Prabhupada said, 'if one becomes too involved in trying to understand the Jewish or Christian faiths, then one will become a Jew or a Christian. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Frankly, out with the old and in with new (the original teachings of Veda Vysa) this is the beginning of a new age of Lord Caitanya. We already know we can take birth as a demigod, a human being of any race or colour, or in the ethereal body of a Yamadhuti or within the body of an insect, these are the facts. There is no really advanced knowledge in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, they have no scriptual explanation of Gods (Krishna's) beautifil bodily form or His Kingdom of Goloka. Jesus said their are many rooms in his fathers manson yet new his audience were simple fishermen and could not understand the complete picture of Gods creation. Like in th story above about the young man praying to Jesus in the Church to be used in Gods plan and then becoming a devotee ofKrishna, one can be genuinly thankful to Jesus for directing one to the next level of devotional life, chanting Hare Krishna, engaging in devotional service and studing the vast Vedic texts, learning that 'God' has a name and beautiful form known as Sri Krishna <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

Murali Mohan prabhu, Kabbalah refers to a set of beliefs and practices that supplement traditional Jewish interpretations of the Bible and religious observances. It is held authoritative by most Orthodox Jews, although traditionally limited to married Talmud scholars. Kabbalah is considered by many Orthodox Jews to be part of the study of Torah, specifically the study of the inner meaning of Torah. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> For one who understands Judaism, the study of the inner secrets of Torah (Sod) is called Kabbalah. The idea of reincarnation, called gilgulis, is found in much Yiddish literature among Ashkenazi Jews. It is also believed that some human souls could end up being reincarnated into non-human bodies.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> According to Jewish beliefs, the intimate understanding and mastery of the Kabbalah brings one spiritually closer to God and enriches one's experience of Jewish sacred texts and law however, the Kabbalah became secretive, forbidden and esoteric to Judaism for two and a half millennia and this is why many outsiders, like European Christians, never heard of the Jewish reincarnation beliefs. Even the term reincarnating is today not used by many orthodox Jews who have their own word ‘gilgulis’, which in English means reincarnation anyway. Many Rabbis today refer to people reincarnating (gilgulis) in successive lives. The belief of reincarnation is actually very common in mainstream Judaism. Most Orthodox Jews have a prayer asking for forgiveness for one's sins that one may have committed in this gilgul or a previous life.