Svarupa

Srila Prabhupada - Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future. Lord Krsna clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, maya cannot cover the Supreme Lord. Srila Prabhupada - The primeval Lord Sri Krishna also says in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 7.26) that He is fully conscious of past, present and future and that no one, including demigods such as Siva and Brahma, knows Him fully. Isopanishad Text 13 “Narada continued: O you who are free from all sinful activity! No one can counteract the effects of fruitive activity simply by manufacturing a different activity devoid of Krsna consciousness. All such activity is due to our ignorance". Narada further said: "When we have a troublesome dream, we cannot relieve it with a troublesome hallucination. One can counteract a dream only by awaking. Similarly, our material existence is due to our ignorance and illusion. Unless we awaken to Krsna consciousness, we cannot be relieved of such dreams. For the ultimate solution to all our problems, we must awaken to Krsna consciousness.” SB. 4.29.34. When we sleep and dream of combinations of past and present experiences, producing fantastic, weird or fearsome escapades from our mortal body, supervised by the Supersoul, they are often forgotten forays into the subtle realm. But our dreams are dreams within a dream within a dream. Srila Prabhupada writes: “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.”Purport to SB. 4.29.83. The Supreme Lord is absolute. Whatever He does is real. When He dreams His mystic slumber into which we are participating, is also reality. Being part of Maha-Visnu’s dream is so bewildering that it holds ever more surprises for us, and the Lord too. He watches sometimes with amazement what is happening here. “Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly watches the activities of this world, no one sees Him. However, one should not think that because no one can see Him, He does not see, for His power to see is never diminished. Therefore, everyone should worship the Supersoul, who always stays with the individual soul as a friend.”SB. 8.1.11. For those who are awakening, the worship of the Supersoul means accepting and worshipping the spiritual master who is no different from Paramatma. The Gita Mahatmya of the Padma Purana also relates how Maha-Visnu watches His yoga-nidra in action. Srila Prabhupada used a host of words throughout his writings to describe the dreaming condition: illusion, delusion, matter, Maya, distress, birth and death, bewilderment, doubt, fear, material life, sense gratification, sinful activities, misdeeds, temporary, misery, fruitive activities, I and mine, mental speculation, external energy, lusty desires, fallen, false prestige, fools, rascals and so on. The material bodies we presently occupy are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal components are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such vessels that correspond with the material desires of those who have chosen to come down from Goloka and experience their mistaken selfish desires. Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out and ones pathway in life is already set and Known by Maha-Vishnu even before they take birth in such vessels. Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA creation, ones pathway moving along with each ethereal and biological vessel is already set and Known by Maha-Vishnu, even before they take birth in such vessels. Such containers always remains the property in each creation of the mahat-tattva and are continuously and eyernally made available by maha-Vishnu for those who desire a particular existence in a vessel they deserve and desire as reward or punishment according to good and bad Karma". “No-one can hurt you unless you let them, ” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaj Prabhupada

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Hare Krishna </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> "“No-one can hurt you unless you let them, some even tried to kill me, but I depended on Krishna” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaj Prabhupada

I never thought I would hear you lower yourself to be offensive and mundane lke the MAYA- vardis Guruvani and co, maybe behind all your quotes is just a parrot, by the way, everything is solidly based on Krishna Consciousness. You have revealed your true mundane sterotype mentality. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Quote from Vigraha, - "The material bodies we presently occupy are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal components are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such vessels that correspond with the material desires of those who have chosen to come down from Goloka as their nitya-baddha consciousness and experience their mistaken selfish desires. Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA creation, ones pathway within the material creation is already set and known by Maha-Vishnu, even before they take birth in such vessels. Such container always remains the property of Maha-Vishnu.

A titani--past; vartamanani--present bhavisyani--future is already set within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p> Chapter 7. Knowledge of the Absolute<o:p></o:p> TEXT 26 <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p> O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows. Srila Prabhupada - Here the question of personality and impersonality is clearly stated. If Krsna, the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is considered by the impersonalists to be maya, to be material, then He would, like the living entity, change His body and forget everything in His past life. Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future. Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord Krsna clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. In the Fourth Chapter we have seen that Lord Krsna remembers instructing Vivasvan, the sun-god, millions of years ago. Krsna knows every living entity because He is situated in every living being's heart as the Supreme Soul. But despite His presence in every living entity as Supersoul and His presence beyond the material sky, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the less intelligent cannot realize Him as the Supreme Person. Certainly the transcendental body of Sri Krsna is not perishable. He is just like the sun, and maya is like the cloud. In the material world we can see that there is the sun and that there are clouds and different stars and planets. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, maya cannot cover the Supreme Lord. By His internal potency He is not manifest to the less intelligent class of men. As it is stated in the third verse of this chapter, out of millions and millions of men, some try to become perfect in this human form of life, and out of thousands and thousands of such perfected men, hardly one can understand what Lord Krsna is. Even if one is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized Paramatma, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, without being in Krsna consciousness Chapter 7. Knowledge of the Absolute Text 26 Purport Srila Prabhupada - According to Vedanta-sutra, sambhuta is the source of birth and sustenance as well as the reservoir that remains after annihilation. The Srimad-Bhagavatam, the natural commentary upon Vedanta-sutra by the same author, maintains that the source of all emanations is not like a dead stone but is abhijna, or fully conscious. The primeval Lord Sri Krishna also says in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 7.26) that He is fully conscious of past, present and future and that no one, including demigods such as Siva and Brahma, knows Him fully. Certainly those who are disturbed by the tides of material existence cannot know Him fully. Half-educated spiritual masters try to make some compromise by making the mass of humanity the object of worship, but they do not know that such worship is not possible nor that the masses are not perfect. Their attempt is something like pouring water on the leaves of a tree instead of the root. The natural process is to pour water on the root, but today's disturbed leaders are more attached to the leaves. Despite their perpetually watering the leaves, everything is drying up for want of nourishment. Isopanishad Text 13 Quote from Vigraha - "The material bodies we presently occupy are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal components are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such vessels that correspond with the material desires of those who have chosen to come down from Goloka and experience their mistaken selfish desires. Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out and ones pathway in life is already set and Known by Maha-Vishnu even before they take birth in such vessels". </o:p>

Your a complete fool and idiot Begger-Guruvani, the anti-Vaishnava aparadhai's, stick this in your lar lar land pipe and smoke it Mr vardi-speculators-maya-vardis Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa ... and the impersonal Brahmajyoti that only uneducated indian old fools think we originate from. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> quote Sarva-gattah Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Quote Vigraha We are ALL nitya-siddha and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha THE FINAL CONCLUSION HARE KRISHNA ALL, HAVE A WONDERFUL KRISHNA CONSCIOUS DAY ON THE CHRISTMAS MARATHON, BOOK DISTRBUTION IS THE BASIS!! Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, if we dare go to that dreaming-MAYA-avardi dreamless loveless selfish impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness. Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti:deal: :smash: :deal:

Very interesting, what do you think of the following CCC Where Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddhas never fall down? Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never fall down, Srila Prabhupada is not saying that nitya siddhas never fall down, he says the memory of being nitya-siddha is covered. What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the the cloud covering) This is in harmony with the letter below Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, We are ALL nitya-siddha and are only DREAMING or THINKING we are nitya baddha Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC all of us are nitya siddha, the souls is unchangeable eternally pure is just our material covering that are polluted, even the soul of Sadham, G bush my soul (that is myself) and other big or little demons are pure souls, because the soul can't be polluted, burned, cut in pieces, etc. Is ever pure. This is one of the most basic things in KC, that our coverings are polluted but not the soul. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Very good understanding CCC

Thats right Vigraha's old mate Guruvani, all nitya siddha's including you in your material body, me in mine and the present DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness, who is the head of the Guruvani cheersquad (Jason Alexander) are all nitya-siddhas right now and have never and will never fall from Goloka however, we all can and have DREAMED we have have fallen, but really ONLY our awareness of our nitya-siddha body is covered like the clouds cover our awareness or vision of the sun. Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka ((NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti that only uneducated indian old fools think we originate from.

Theist I have corrected it however I only copied what you had posted <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by original quote Sarva gattah Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Above Originally Posted by original quote Sarva gattah </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist Again just for the record. I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, We are ALL nitya-siddha and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha THE FINAL CONCLUSION HARE KRISHNA ALL, HAVE A WONDERFUL KRISHNA CONSCIOUS DAY ON THE CHRISTMAS MARATHON, BOOK DISTRBUTION IS THE BASIS!! Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, if we dare go to that dreaming-MAYA-avardi dreamless loveless selfish impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness. Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Read carefully Hence - We can understand in 2007 why NOW all these letters are being brought out to PROTECT ISKCON from any further pre-emptive strikes against ISKCONs devotees from the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math. In Australia Ramai Swami and Aniruddha Dasa the Temple President is very protective about the 'other camp', as Ramai Maharaj calls them. He doesn't say much, he just avoids them and is always polite and jolly if he crosses their path. He just makes sure no more devotees are lost to the Gaudya math who Srila Prabhupada told his disciples and grand disciples to avoid

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa THE FINAL CONCLUSION </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, if we dare go to that dreaming-MAYA-avardi dreamless loveless selfish impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness. Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka ((NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti that only uneducated old fools think we originate from. Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position”. Ravindra Svarup dasa web site Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God’s creation is the three-fourths manifestation . . . This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

As Prabhupada says "all matter comes from life"

Well, we have all been warned! Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada "ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them." Rupanuga, April 28, 1974.<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Sometime it is best to let the barking dogs bark and move on - go read the letter post

Quote:cbrahma <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>" ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them." </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Read carefully Hence - We can understand in 2007 why NOW all these letters are being brought out to PROTECT ISKCON from any further pre-emptive strikes against ISKCONs devotees from the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math. In Australia Ramai Swami and Aniruddha Dasa the Temple President is very protective about the 'other camp', as Ramai Maharaj calls them. He doesn't say much, he just avoids them and is always polite and jolly if he crosses their path. He just makes sure no more devotees are lost to the Gaudya math who Srila Prabhupada told his disciples and grand disciples to avoid

[quote name=' original quote Sarva gattah Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti theist]<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Guruvan stop adding you nonsense ideas and learn ALL correct TRANSLATIONS nitya-siddha — eternally perfected; CC Madhya 6.12 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> nitya-siddha — eternally established; CC Madhya 22.107 <o:p> </o:p> nitya-siddha — eternally liberated; CC Antya 5.49-50 <o:p> </o:p> nitya-siddha — ETERNALLY LIBERATED “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport Then Srila Prabhupada explains. Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Every marginal living entity or jiva soul haS a perpetual body eternally established (nitya-siddha) within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls secondary (nitya-baddha) condition of their being or their inactive consciousness when become dormant after experiencing the frustration of ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva. Attempting to obliterate their consciousness means they have no information or realization that they (every marginal living entity or jiva soul) have a perpetual body eternally established (nitya-siddha) within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.<o:p></o:p> nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya<o:p></o:p> zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam Class<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. <o:p></o:p> The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s'skti IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu and Shiva also correctly explained to us. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How have we fallen to the material world?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).<o:p></o:p>

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand eternal time and how we ALL originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha, stating that the subject is best not discussed and devotees should always refer to Srila Prabhupada’s letter ‘Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic’ letter he sent to his Australian devotees in 1972 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada instructed his disciples to just get out of this material world and don't waste your time trying to understand how and when we fell down from Goloka <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin." Later, "Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.". Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Here however Srila Prabhupada's often responsed in a different way from the Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic letter, encouraging his disciples to try and understand our original position and how we fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda - “He can return”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<o:p></o:p>

The present day version of the Gaudiya math obviously does not understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. I have met him on a few occasions and like many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not understood. The fact is that many Swami’s and Guru’s and devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti. To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin. The following is a nonsense impersonal understaning of the jiva's origins written by Sridhar Goswami Maharaja "Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is 'somehow?' disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms". Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Very well written realist

Regarding the Gaudiya math "You should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74: