Svarupa
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"Prabhu"
there is no difference between Prabhupada's books, tapes, letters, morning walks and classes. Such propaganda and nonsense statements are coming from that Nararanya Maharaj because, lets face the facts, he needs to 'use' Prabhupada to spread his own propaganda, but won't join Prabhupada. Not too long ago he made that very clear by saying in Navadwip - "I am not ISKCON I am Gaudiya math":rolleyes: Also being completely honest and truthful is not being offensive , but if you or anyone else take offense, then that there your problem. Actually you and those 'head' cases Guruvani and Murali_Mohan_das
are the ones committing 'grave' offenses by calling us 'Sleeper-vadis' At least I'm not calling Narayana Maharaja a MAYA - VADI 
Hare Krishna
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Quote:
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We cannot possibly get free from this dreadful land
as long as we allow this impersonalism to stand.
http://therealexplanation.org/article/how_stand.html
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"This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 PURPORT
However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way
Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,
Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11
Many have misunderstood the meaning of tatastha and how the jiva soul originally 'came' down from Goloka. Nararanya Maharaj is right - no-one falls down from Goloka we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can all 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us, it is this point that Narayana Maharaj and his follloweres cannot understand. This is simply stating a fact.
Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently".Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.
Someone humbly present this to Narayana Maharaj - "Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires, or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place, plane or area of living 'sparks and atoms' in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti, or some 'plain sheet' of uniform IMPERSONAL consciousness, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Serving Lord Krishna perpetually as ones eternal nitya-siddha body), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological vessels) This is an important point for Narayana Maharaj and all of us to humbly, selflessly and sincerely understand. Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)
Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia
Many 'literally' believe, just as they foolishly believe we are actual atoms or sparks in some living effulgence they incorrectly call tatastha-s'akti, that our siddha ’svarupa’ is currently in seed form only when in actual fact our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and always has been.
Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977
It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.
The correct understanding of 'seed form' realy means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’
Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)
In all due respects,Narayana Maharaj is completely wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka"
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Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?
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TOKYO 1972:zrI zuka uvAca
Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan
parasyAnubhavAtmanaH
na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH
svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA
[sB 2.9.1]
[...]
Karandhara: "SrI-zukaH uvAca--SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said; Atma-- the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mAyAm--the energy; Rte-- without; rAjan--O King..."
PrabhupAda: RAjan.
Karandhara: RAjan--O King.
PrabhupAda: It is address, addressing. Nominative is rAja and addressive is rAjan. Go on.
Karandhara: ParasyAsya...
PrabhupAda: Parasya.
Karandhara: Parasya.
PrabhupAda: Parasya. Yes.
Karandhara: "Parasya--of the pure soul; anubhava-AtmanaH-- of the purely conscious; na--never; ghaTeta--it can so happen; artha-- meaning; sambandhaH--relation with the material body; svapna-- dream; draSTuH--of the seer; iva--like it; aJjasA--completely."
PrabhupAda: AJjasA.
Karandhara: "AJjasA--completely. Translation: SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working."
PrabhupAda: So, purport?
Karandhara: "Purport. The question of MahArAja ParIkSit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind."
PrabhupAda: It is a very important question. ParIkSit MahArAja inquired... Many people inquired that "How the living entity was with KRSNa, he became fallen in this material world?" Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that "How the living entity who was with KRSNa became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?" So this is the answer. Read the translation.
Karandhara: "SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..."
PrabhupAda: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?
Devotees: Yes.
PrabhupAda: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a mAyA, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material." That is the reason. He is thinking, "I am this body." Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving. [break] Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan. Except Atma-mAyA, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of KRSNa. This illusory energy develops when we forget KRSNa. That's all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up KRSNa and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore KRSNa is giving us...
Just like when you play some part in a drama, if you feel that "I am king," then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel that "I am Karandhara," then you cannot play nicely king. Is it not? Feeling must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, then you must have the same courage and belief that "I am king." You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then your part will be very nicely played. It will be appreciated. But if you think simultaneously that "I am Karandhara. I am taking, playing the part of the king," then you cannot play. So because we wanted to play the part of KRSNa, enjoyer, KRSNa is giving us chance that "You feel like Me."--"I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God." (laughter) All these rascals, those who are feeling like that, "I am master. I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God," they are all simply in that feeling only. That's all. And this feeling is created by KRSNa: "All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way." Just like director means, dramatic director means, he creates a feeling. His direction is nothing but how to feel.
Sometimes we played in our younger age Caitanya-lIlA. I introduced. And one big director, Amrtalal Chosa, he was just like grandfather. He was one of the, just like in England Shakespeare and others, big, big dramatic, well-known persons. This Amrtalal Chosa and Girish Chandra Chosa, they introduced in India theatric... So we called him to give us direction. He was giving us direction, and repeatedly he was telling that "You feel like that," especially to me. "You feel like that." So actually, when we played according to his direction, the audience were all crying. And we could not understand how they cried. We could not understand. On the stage when we played, it was so perfect that all audience were crying. Actually we saw they were smearing over their eyes with... But the whole thing is artificial, but the effect to the audience became so nice. So similarly, we are... Actually we have nothing to do with this material world, But we have been trained by the illusory energy in such a way that we are thinking, "I am Indian. I am American. I am this. I am that. I am brAhmaNa. I am zUdra. I have to do this. I have got so much duty," all these illusions, simply thinking. We have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but still, we are taking it very serious. "I have to do like that. I have to do like that. I am this. I am that." That's all. That is explained. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan: "Except the influence of that AtmA-mAyA, the illusory energy of KRSNa..." Atma-mAyA. Read. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan parasyAnu. Read it?
Karandhara: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH.
PrabhupAda: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH. Na ghaTeta artha-sambandha. There cannot be any relation at all. Na ghaTeta. Cannot be. Artha sambandhaH. Svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA. The very exact example is given, svapna-draSTuH. Just like a man seeing dream: "Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!" He is crying. Another man is, "Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?" But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: "The tiger has attacked me." Therefore this example is given, na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly we have created this material world and activity. People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors." All these things are created exactly like that, svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That's all.
So the answer is, when somebody asks you that "When one has become in contact with this material nature?" He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, KRSNa has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate KRSNa, so KRSNa has given an opportunity: "All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.' " That is the... So everyone in this material world, they are playing some part. They wanted, "I want to be prime minister.All right.I want to become very big business magnate.I want to be leader.I want to be a philosopher.I want to be a scientist." So all this nonsense, they are trying to play--KRSNa is giving him the opportunity: "All right." But it is a nonsense, all nonsense. Simple dreaming. Just like you are dreaming. Next moment when the dream is gone, everything is finished. No more tiger, no more jungle, no more... Everything is finished. Similarly, so long this body is continuing, I am thinking, "I am a responsible leader, I am this, I am that." But as soon as this body is finished, oh, these are (indistinct) gone.
Sarva-haraz cAham. The death means... KRSNa says, "I am death. I take it away, all, everything. Gone." Now just think of our past life. Suppose I was a king or something like that. From BhRgu-saMhitA it was ascertained. They said--I do not know--that I was a big physician in my last life, very spotless character, no sins, like that. He explained me. So it may be. But actually I have no remembrance that I was a physician. So what do we know? I might have been a very big physician, influential physician, having a good practice, but where is all...? All gone. So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our KRSNa consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply KRSNa's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of KRSNa conscious. "Oh, KRSNa is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly. Now what is the purport? Come on.
Karandhara: "The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life."
PrabhupAda: Yes. Distinct. Always distinct. Next?
Karandhara: "But he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called Atma-mAyA. This is already explained in the First Canto in connection with VyAsadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy."
PrabhupAda: KRSNa says, mAm eva ye prapadyante mAyAm etAM taranti te: [bg. 7.14] "As soon as one surrenders unto Me, he has no more illusion." MAyAm etaM taranti. Immediately. So people are conditioned, encaged. So many big, big words The MAyAvAdIs, they are undergoing austerities or penances just to become liberated. Yogis, they are also trying to become one. So many endeavors are going on. But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, "It was illusion. I was dreaming. I am KRSNa's," finished. All gone. "I am KRSNa's. I am KRSNa's eternal servant. These are all nonsense"--he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of KRSNa. Sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja [bg. 18.66]. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by VyAsadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called zAstra. In two lines. Then read the purport.
Karandhara: "The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gItA also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord."
PrabhupAda: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, "Why KRSNa within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...?" Because I wanted. I wanted to forget KRSNa, so KRSNa is giving consciousness: "All right, you can forget Me in this way." That is His kindness. Just like the MAyAvAdIs, the so-called yogis and karmIs, they wanted to forget. KRSNa is giving him intelligence. "All right. You forget Me like this." That's all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, KRSNa will give you intelligence. Buddhi-yogaM dadAmi taM yena mAm upayAnti te: "I shall give intelligence." So KRSNa is... Ye yathA mAM prapadyante [bg. 4.11]. As you want, KRSNa gives you facility. Go on.
Karandhara: "Now the next question will automatically be made as to why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be engaged in his pure consciousness as the part and parcel of the Lord, and thus be engaged in loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made. But because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become independent as the Lord is. The whole nondevotee class of living entities are all desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are..."
PrabhupAda: They will never be God, but we see so many persons. By the influence of the illusory energy they think, "I am God. I am God. I shall become God by pressing my nose like this, doing this." So this is going on. They will never be able. That is not possible. Otherwise, there is no meaning of God. If everyone can become God, then there is no meaning of God. But by influence of... Just like karmIs are saying "I shall become millionaire. I shall become trillionaire. I shall become head of the state. I shall become prime minister." This struggle, this is another struggle: "I shall become God." This is another struggle. But it is illusion. It is illusion. So KRSNa gives them opportunity, some yogic success. Just like in India there is a rascal. He makes like that, and there is immediately some gold. And people become after him: "Oh, he is God. He is God." By producing a little gold, he becomes God. Another yogi, he gives immediately two rasagullA. So by producing two rasagullA, four annas' worth, he becomes God. You see? This is illusion. These rascals, they do not know that, "What is this rasagullA, two rasagullA? I can purchase from the market for four annas. So he is becoming God by four annas?" But they have no sense. "Oh, he is God. He can produce rasagullA." RasagullA I can produce in our kitchen. But they are so rascal. "Oh, wonderful." So the yogic siddhis... So KRSNa gives him some power of yogic siddhi and he thinks that "I have become God," and some flatterers, they also think, "Oh, you are God." The same dream. And as soon as death comes, everything finished, your Godhood and everything finished. Now becomes doghood, come to the stage of doghood. Again, another dream: "I am dog." First of all "I am God," then next stage, "I am dog." This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda ThAkura said, keno mAyAr boze jAccho bhese': "Why you are being washed away by the waves of mAyA? Just fix up. Stand up." JIv kRSNa-dAs ei vizwAs korle to Ar duHkho nAi. You simply remain fixed up on this standpoint, that, "I am eternal servant of KRSNa." Then there is no more dream. And if you allow yourself to be washed away, KRSNa gives you facility, "All right, come on. Be washed away." Then?
Karandhara: "The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him."
PrabhupAda: Yes.
Karandhara: "As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmI and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of Atma-mAyA by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine' and this is ‘I.' The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I' or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.' Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine' persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love."
PrabhupAda: That's all.
Devotees: All glories to you SrIla PrabhupAda. (offer obeisances)
Trivikrama: SrIla PrabhupAda? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read...
PrabhupAda: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, "Oh, tiger is there." It is simply dreaming condition.
Trivikrama: But so many VaiSNavas are praying...
PrabhupAda: So as soon as you understand that "This is not... I am not in contact with tiger. It is all a dream," then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand, "All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. That is KRSNa conscious. If you keep in KRSNa consciousness, that "I am eternal servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. Sa guNAn samatItyaitAn brahma-bhUyaa kalpate [bg. 14.26], KRSNa says. Immediately brahma-bhUtaH. Brahma-bhUtaH prasannAtmA na zocati na kAGkSati [bg. 18.54]. He has no more lamentation, no more hankering. SamaH sarveSu bhUteSu. He can see everyone on equal vision. Because he knows, "Here is also another living entity." He is not a Chinaman. He is a part and parcel of God. He is not a Christian. He is not a Hindu. He is simply thinking like that. So give him KRSNa consciousness. That is real benefit, to bring him to the original position. Yes?
CintAmaNi: If, when we realize KRSNa, then we have no more desire, then how can we desire...
PrabhupAda: You create desire. If you simply keep this contact with KRSNa, then there is no more any other desire than to serve KRSNa. That's all.
Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...
PrabhupAda: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of KRSNa. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in KRSNa's service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of mAyA. You see?
Devotee: Even at that state, still the body is affected by the modes of nature. We are experiencing desires.
PrabhupAda: You are not experiencing. Your body is experiencing. You are feeling cold due to this body. You are not feeling cold. You are not feeling cold.
Devotee: But I think I am feeling cold.
PrabhupAda: You are thinking. That is illusion. That is illusion.
Devotee: So rise above that.
PrabhupAda: Yes. But not artificially, but this is the fact. You have to gradually rise to that platform. The fact is this. Just like when you are feverish, actually you are healthy, but it has come. So in the feverish condition you are thinking, "I am now feverish." But this feverish will not, condition, will not stay. You will come to the healthy stage. Therefore don't be disturbed with the feverish condition. Go on with your duty. Don't misidentify, "Now I have become feverish. Everything is finished." No. That is external. It has come; it will go. That is given in the Bhagavad-gItA. MAtrA-sparzAs tu kaunteya zItoSNa-sukha-duHkha-dAH [bg. 2.14]. Just like seasonal changes. Sometimes it is very hot, sometimes very cold, sometimes warm. So these are coming and going. So if there is some feeling of pain and pleasure, simply just tolerate it, but don't be absorbed in that thought. That's all. Therefore titikSava. The first symptoms of a saintly person is titikSava, tolerant. Tolerant. So go on reading, go on understanding. Everything will be clear. So next? There is kIrtana, or finished? (end)
The fact is that many devotees like Murali_Mohan_das find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential (svarupa)of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their nitya-siddha body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending 'present' in their original rasa serving relationships with Krishna, regardless if YOU are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.
To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.
Srila Prabhupada rejected THEIR idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.
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Thats right, YOUR perpetual body can never fall down from Goloka because only the eternal 'presents' exist there and presently you are simply dreaming in the mahat-tattva. Why not accept these facts?
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Settle down Kulapavana how can the truth about our origins get you so fired up?
Also you are wrong about ISKCON devotees now becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Thats not possible because he left this planet in 1977. Who told you such nonsense that the GBC squashed years ago?
You also cannot deny the fact that Srila Prabhupada said that we all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, why not accept what HE says?
Hare Krishna
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By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.
The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage--the stage of observing the rules and regulations--and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord.
The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA 'SVARUPA' HAYA--KRSNERA 'NITYA-DASA': "Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA." As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage.
Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of "I" and mine
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KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.
The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
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To avoid the material activities (dreams) within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu means to follow the four regulative principles CHANT 16 ROUNDS A DAY and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness.
By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.
The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
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The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete.
A SPIRIT SOUL WHO FALLS DOWN FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI TO THE KINGDOM OF MAYA MAY HAVE A CHANCE OF ASSOCIATING WITH A PURE DEVOTEE, AND THEN HE MAY BE ELEVATED TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS OF VAIKUNTHA OR TO GOLOKA VRINDABAN. FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI THERE IS NO DIRECT PROMOTION TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS, AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BHAGAVATAM THAT SUCH SOULS FALL DOWN: PATANTY ADHA.
70-02-27.Jag Letter: Jagadisa
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.
USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa
Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?
THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUSE OF ONE'S INDEPENDENCE. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN.
67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa
The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya.
There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So as ETERNAL SERVITORS OF KRISHNA--OUR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION--WE FALL DOWN WHEN WE TRY TO BECOME THE ENJOYER, IMITATING KRISHNA. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya
Krishna consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have.
69-06-07. Letter: Uttamasloka
Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to receive your letter (undated), and I have noted the contents that you had left the temple but now you have returned again. This is most encouraging, because it means that Krishna is very kind upon you. Although you left Him, He did not allow you to go away. It is His special favor upon you.
As individuals there may be disagreement sometimes, but that is quite natural. Even in ordinary family affairs there is sometimes disagreement, but that does not mean immediately the disagreeing members shall leave the family. Similarly our Krishna Consciousness Movement means we are all gathering together in families of Krishna.
ACTUALLY WE ARE ETERNAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LORD, BUT DUE TO OUR MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE NOW FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN WHO IS MAD FORGETS HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND LOITERS IN THE STREET.
But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna's family. So we are trying to establish a replica of Krishna's family in this material world wherein there is no material activities.
To avoid the material activities (dreams) within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu means to follow the four regulative principles and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness.
We should follow the regulative principles, regard being had to situation, circumstances and objectives. We should not be greedy and we should not mix with persons not interested in Krishna. In this way, we can make steady progress and maintain our membership in Krishna's family. Thus, at the end of this life we will enter actually into the spiritual world. So your main business should be to spread Sankirtana, becoming tolerant as the tree and becoming humbler than the grass.
If you have anytime any difficulty, please try to settle up in the above way, but do not leave the company of devotees. That will not help you, even though there may seem to be some difficulties.
.740606BG.GEN Lectures
Just like father gives some capital to the son: "You do some business." Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you. Similarly, Krsna has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Krsna has given us. THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL. This is called karma, ksetra.
Bg Introduction
Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA.
By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:
KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.
The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage--the stage of observing the rules and regulations--and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord.
The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA 'SVARUPA' HAYA--KRSNERA 'NITYA-DASA': "Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA." As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage.
Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of "I" and mine
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So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease. Mahesh dasa (02-07-07)
Letter to Australian devotees 1972
Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic -
We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification.
Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.
Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.
FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT.
But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.
Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.
Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second.
For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons.
This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent.
Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure.
There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss.
Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down.
But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA.
So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions?
So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery.
But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead.
The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila.
Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream.
Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime.
Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila.
But differences we see under different conditions.
Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered.
But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.
760708ed.wdc Conversations
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. FIND OUT THIS VERSE.
Pusta Krsna:
iccha-dvesa samutthena
dvandva-mohena bharata
sarva-bhutani sammoham
sarge yanti parantapa
"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.
This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this
Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga
Regarding your question, "what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?",
In the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya's atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world.
In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole vedic literature.
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This is what is really going on
The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.
While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established
We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.
The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy.
Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.
Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)
When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.
Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.
In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.
Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna
Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.
Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "
Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan
Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -
Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.
Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”
Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.
Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
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Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan
Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
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All marginal living entities have always had an eternal svarupa body that is forever in the pastimes of Krishna within Goloka or Vaikuntha.
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan
Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,
Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a… Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)
Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)
Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)
Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport
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Below is the drawing by an eight year old Gurukula boy explaing in his painting how the marginal living entity leaves their svarupa body in Goloka or Vaikuntha and experiences the mahat-tattva as their nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness
This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is
Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).
Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:
Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga
Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah
This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.
We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka
Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Krishna. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.
nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya
zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya
Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”.
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Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained we are presently in Goloka or Vaikuntha, yet presently dreaming we are in the material creation - Jai Prabhupada.
Due to the absents of time in Vaikuntha and Goloka, the so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya as well as all marginal living entities who use their free will to activate their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha lower self, only manifests within the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that is under the jurisdiction of past, present and future.
There is however, a difference in that Jaya and Vijaya offended pure devotee's, never the less, they still had to take birth as demons in the material creation. Even though they where in demon bodies, they were still <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is that they never ever stopped thinking how they hated <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.
This is the part or drama Jaya and Vijaya played in the Lords pastimes. On the other hand, ALL other marginal living entities can choose to leave Goloka, not as their eternal nitya-siddha svarupa body, but as a secondary dreaming nitya-siddha consciousness thai can only attain bodily form from Maha-Vishnu, this is the only way ALL MARGINAL LIVING ENTITIES can leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and take refuge in His mahat-tattva temporary dreams (material creation)
Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)
There is no time in Vaikuntha or Goloka, so after playing their parts dreaming as demons in the mahat-tattva, on returning to their perpetual duty as gate keepers, it was if they NEVER left. The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya is just a dream, like any marginal living entity who 'falls down' from Vaikuntha, they also only dreamt they had become demons.
Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972
Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>
The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious bodily svarupa constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.
There is nothing missing in Goloka because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies in unlimited various transcendental forms that can only be revealed when one reestablishes their original Krishna Consciousness. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out on being our genuine perpetual bodily identity that we have always been. Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.
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All living entities are constitutionally 'persons' yet can 'dream' or 'think' they are impersonal. We are all nitya-siddha right now with Krishna but we are presently dreaming and thinking otherwise that makes our present awareness nitya-baddha or 'dreaming' consciousness.
The word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from those who think our original possition is nitya-baddha and we must develope our nitya-siddha bodily identity when we enter Goloka. Such understanding by even big, big caste Brahmana's, Guru's and pandits are incorrect because our nitya-siddha body is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha even while we chase our mistaken dreams in the material world as nitya-baddha (the sub-conscious dreaming condition of the marginal living entity).
The Impersonalists claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. They claim that within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They further claim that from the nondifferentiation condition of the marginal living entity, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.
This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.
This impersonal understanding that the living entity originates from the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada.
The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha as previously explained in so many quotations from Srila Prabhupada.
Therefore it is the impersonal idea that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ or the living entity as impersonal
The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.
The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.
This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism
The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of Krishna that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities
A further fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity fascilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. And yes ones nitya-siddha body maybe that of a cow or peacock however, such rasa realationships can change in Vaikuntha and Goloka. Such high levels of Krishna's pastimes can only be understood through selfless devotional service and not through book knowledge and jnana. In our material contaminated state we will only see contradictions.
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I had a blood test couple of months back and my good colestral was very low and my doctor suggested I take code liver oil but new I did not consume meat, fish or eggs. So he sggested flaxid oil. I just had another blood tests back today and not only is my good colestral back to normal but other liver functions have greatly improved. This is a must for all vegetarians- Krishna helps those who help themselves
What Is Flax Seed Oil
Flax seed is 1/3 oil, and the rest of it is made up of fiber, protein, and mucilage. Flax seed oil is a rich source of essential fatty acids - it contains alpha linolenic acid, omega 3 essential fatty acid, and omega 6 essential fatty acid, and flax seed oil contains these 3 EFA's in just the right proportions. Flax seeds are also a great source of lignans, vitamins, and minerals.
North Americans are usually lacking omega 3 EFA in their diet, and flax seed oil is an excellent supplement for this. The cells of the body need the omega 3 fatty acids from which they build their cell membranes, which protect them. The brain is largely composed of fats called phospholipids, which are made from essential fatty acids. Thus these oils are essential for the function and structure of the brain and improve cognition, memory, moods and concentration.
Flax Seed Oil - Essential Source Of Omega 3 EFA
Research has shown that majority of diets are deficient in Omega 3 essential fatty acids, and this can lead to some serious health problems:
- Coronary heart disease - Omega 3 helps reduce cholesterol, blood pressure, plaque formation, and cardian arrhythmia.
- Arthritis - Studies have found that oils rich in Omega 3 (like flax seed oil) patients can reduce their drug use.
- Cancer - Omega 3 has been found to kill certain cancer cells without harming normal cells.
- Skin problems like acne, eczema, and psoriasis are shown partly to be related to Omega 3 deficiency.
- Omega 3 EFA helps improve your response to stress.
Health Benefits of Flax Seed Oil
Flax seeds contain 12% mucilage, which makes it a gentle, natural laxative. Flax seeds are perfect for individuals who has a sensitive stomach.
- Flax seed oil acts as a buffer for excess stomach acids
- Flax seed oil soothes ulcers and irritable bowel disorders
- Flax seed oil lubricates and absorbs toxins
- Prevents toxic build up in the bowel
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Flax seed oil also contains lignans that have anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anti-cancer properties. Flax seeds have the richest source of lignans, 100 times more than the next best source, wheat bran. Flax seed also contains lecithin which emulsifies fat and cholesterol. These little seeds improve digestion, help stabilize blood glucose levels, fight tumor formation and enhance cardiovascular health.
The Components of Flax Seed Oil
We already mentioned above that flax seed oil is an excellent source of fiber, protein, lignans, vitamins and minerals, and essential fatty acids. Let's take a look at some of these.
Fiber - Flax seeds contain soluble and insoluble fiber, and also contains mucilage. The fiber in flax seed oil cleans the colon of toxic material, metabolic waste and dried mucus. Flax fiber is an excellent food for friendly bacteria in the intestine which keeps disease-causing organisms in check.
Protein - There's about 25g of protein for every 100g of flax seeds. The protein in flax seeds is easily digested and contains a complete amino acid profile that your body needs.
Lignans - Lignans have anti-cancer, anti-viral, and anti-bacterial properties, and Flax seed has 75 to 800 percent more lignans than other vegetables and grains. Researchers also believe lignans to have antioxidant properties.
Essential Fatty Acids - Flax seed oil is a rich source of 3 essential fatty acids: alpha linolenic acid, omega 3 essential fatty acid, and omega 6 essential fatty acid. (See above for some Omega 3 benefits.)
Flax seed is one of the best sources for the essential fatty acid alpha linolenic acid. Alpha linolenic acid is so important for bodybuilders because it "enhances insulin sensitivity within muscle cells." (1) This omega-3 fatty acid also has many other beneficial effects:
- Coronary heart disease - Omega 3 helps reduce cholesterol, blood pressure, plaque formation, and cardian arrhythmia.
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The Impersonalists further claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="
" src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti<v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"> <v:imagedata o:href="
" src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>, their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva<v:shape id=_x0000_i1027 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"> <v:imagedata o:href="
" src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.
This impersonal understanding is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada. The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha.
Therefore it is the impersonal ideas that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ as impersonal.
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The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'. What dribble!!
This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism
The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities
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Shambhuddhi dasa’s (Guruvani) understanding on <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness is totally misleading.
I don’t know if he is an impersonalist but that is the idea that he conveys:
ie - “In conclusion, Lord Caitanya does not teach that the constitutional position of the soul is anything more than impersonal realization of Lord Krishna in his impersonal Brahman effulgence.” That is Shambhuddhi’s own nonsense impersonalist conclusion. Such nonsense is not what Srila Prabhupada explains nor is what Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja is saying in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, nor the conclusion of the acaryas.
The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.
Fighting the war against Impersonalism and those who claim the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is the real war going on in human society. The war where the Personalist fight the impersonal we all must fight.
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Many devotees cannot understand where the impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha comes from. One does not have to go far to see how this has happened. Other sects other than ISKCON often quote their interpretation of the Vedas in their claim that the jiva has originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, never been to Goloka or that once going there they can never fall down, these ideas Srila Prabhupada rejected.
Unfortunately it is the impersonal influence of other sects that wrongly explain the Impersonal origins of the jiva that has put the impersonal murkiness on the word ‘tatastha’ that will be correctly explained in the next paragraph. It is those groups and their teachers that have polluted the correct personal teachings of the Vedas.
Again it must be understood we never ever originated from jiva-tatastha consciousness, spark, ray of light, a 'borderline consciousness’ because we are all eternally nitya-siddha-vigraha .
Try to understand that what these other impersonal groups are teaching, for example - 'The jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world (tatastha)".
This idea is completely bogus because the marginal living entity is eternally nitya-siddha and is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving beautiful <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.
The only way the marginal living entity can vacate that eternal place and the 'svarupa' body they serve Krishna as in Goloka beyond the mundane divided time and space of the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, is in their ‘dreams’ or ‘thoughts’, if they foolishly choose to miss use their free will and give up serving Krishna. When that choice is made, the living entity immediately activates their lower nitya-baddha consciousness.
Therefore it is only this secondary conscious dreaming state of the living entity that can be also known as jiva-tatastha, jiva s'akti. jiva prakriti, jiva bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions that describe the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation) or Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti ASPECT OF THEIR OWN MARGINAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.
Conclusion - The word tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.
According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong and either misunderstood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or misinterpreted the word, or both. The fact is in our original 'svarupa' bodily form serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is not only our original position but also our eternal position; therefore we have never ever been tatastha (BORDERLINE) from that viewpoint and never will be, Why? Because we have never been borderline! We have always been nitya-siddha..
This does not mean we cannot manifest jiva-tatastha or borderline consciousness. That can only be attained from the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness outside the eternal personal <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>Kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Krishna Goloka</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> or Vaikuntha.
The problem with many other sects in todays impersonal and materialistic society, is their gurus constantly not only claim we originated from tatastha (with the underlining emphases it is an impersonal origin) but also claim we have never been to Vaikuntha, claiming once their no-one returns, It is obvious that according to their philosophy if we never originated from Vaikuntha, then we must have come from a Impersonal beginning
The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other sects of religion and philosophy, are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form known as the Brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.
This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism
The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities
In other words all of us have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that has always been in Goloka or Vaikuntha without beginning and without end. What other impersonally polluted camps call the Brahmajyoti is actually the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. The full potential of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is the personal devotional active Vaikuntha planets and the central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet of Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. The final conclusion is that the word tatastha is implicated as an impersonal state of the jiva due to the idea coming from other sects that promote that the jiva originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. It is them that claim tatastha is a 'borderline' state of inactive consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada has made it very clear that we are already in Goloka but are now 'thinking' or 'dreaming' we are not.
Read all the quotes above that clearly explain Srila Prabhupadas position on our original position.
It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.
According to the translation that tatastha means borderline, those who claim we are originally tatastha (borderline) are wrong and either misunderstood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or misinterpreted the word, or both. The fact is in our original 'svarupa' bodily form serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is not only our original position but also our eternal position; therefore we have never ever been tatastha (BORDERLINE) from that viewpoint and never will be, Why? Because we have never been borderline! We have always been nitya-siddha.
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Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka
Sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa (Guruvani) are having a bad dream, yet foolishly think their dream is who they really are
The barking dogs will always bark but who care's, the caravan of truth that we ALL originate from Goloka will forever go on, no matter how loud them or any other fools barks that we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti
sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa are polluted with mayavardi philosophy.
They are unfortunately polluted by Impersonalism!! The secret of understanding this be first being a devotee of Krishna and not an IMPERSONALIST, only then can one realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.
There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.
This is what is really going on
The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.
While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established
We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.
The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy.
Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.
Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)
When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.
Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.
In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.
Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna
Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.
Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "
Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan
Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -
Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.
Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”
Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.
Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
I enjoyed reading this, explains a lot
Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja
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This for the benifit of those who are not polluted by those who think we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti anD want to know the real truth of how all of us ORIGINATED FROM THE PERSONAL PASTIMES OF KRISHNA IN GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA, and follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, rather than those SO CALLED SWAMIS AND GURUS trying to use him to establish their own following