Svarupa

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2009 AND HARE KRSNA TO ALL!!

Jahnava Nitai Das -“Do not allow the past to hurt you. First forgive yourself for whatever mistakes you may have done, and then move on in sadhana. As long as we hold on to undeserved guilt we will always feel depressed in our service’.

Your servant, Jahnava Nitai Das. Part of Personal letter to Gauragopala dasa ACBSP (Sarva gattah)

haribol, folks, hope the winter is tolerable. Apology and forgiveness are linked, and are very important issues to discuss.

 

My point here is the spiritual value of apology. Nothing to do with the offended, even though right of refusal is in the hands of the offended, and forgiveness is not complete unless apology is accepted. But the act of apology, wheteher accepted or not, is a deep spiritual practice. One develops humility by placing oneself in a regretful mode for offenses that occur no matter how hard one tries to avoid them.

 

Actually, Srila Prabhupada, when he took on us uncultured students, explained the "ritual" of offering each other humble obiesancies. This act, which must be performed by cultured persons to, according to Bhagavad gita, is the worship and honor due to elder family members, religious folk, spiritual teachers, and other honorable folk. We place our heads on the ground and ask forgiveness for all the damage caused by us simply by taking yet another birth. Apology is an extension of the offering of obiesancies and addresses not only the soothing of the offended, but a unique act of contrition by the offender. The spiritual value to the offender is much greater (IMHO) than any value in repairing a broken relationship.

 

But it is always nice to receive acceptance when one apologizes. We know the story of how lost durvasa was until his offense was mitigated, and even Lord Narayana declared powerlessness to forgive one mans offense to another. But even without acceptance, the apology itself is a great thing to do, even for the smallest things.

 

Hare Krsna, ys mahaksadasa

 

PS I am very sorry to have taken yet another birth, please forgive me.

As long as all parties are Krsna Conscious, then forgiveness and acceptence is the result.

Problem is, ISKCON today are very immature and have no idea how to deal with present problems except to ignore them and hope they go and fade away like a bad smell as one idiot sannyasi once said

And the Gaudiya math camps are worse, they have no idea how to hate the sin and not the sinner because of their karmi polluted watered down version of Krsna Consciousness.

Spiritual Compassion

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By Hridayananda Das Goswami | Published 06/12/2005

Category: Articles on Hinduism

Hridayananda Das Goswami -"I am writing to comment on the recent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, which you must have heard of by now. I am aware that some devotees take a casual or dismissive attitude toward these events, declaring that

"It's just a fight among the karmis." Or, "People are just suffering their karma." etc.

If this is the full extent of our response to these events, I think that we are somehow deficient as devotees. My logic is as follows:

Lord Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita 6.32, that a devotee should possess universal empathy. A literal translation of this verse would read:

"O Arjuna, I consider the supreme yogi to be one who, by comparison to the self, sees everywhere the same, whether happiness or distress."

This verse, among other meanings, recommends a kind of universal empathy. In his own translation of this verse, Srila Prabhupada stresses this universal empathy:

"He is a perfect yogi who, by comparison to his own self, sees the true equality of all beings, in both their happiness and their distress, O Arjuna!"

In his purport, Srila Prabhupada continues to stress the point of empathy: "One who is Krishna conscious is a perfect yogi; he is aware of everyone's happiness and distress by dint of his own personal experience. In other words, a devotee of the Lord always looks to the welfare of all living entities, and in this way he is factually the friend of everyone."

This is how we can apply such empathy in the case of the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington: First, we can imagine what it would have felt like for us to have been on one of the four planes that were hijacked and destroyed, or in one of the three attacked buildings.

There is ample information available so that we can be quite specific and explicit in imagining the experience. Second, we will probably have to honestly admit that we would feel significant discomfort, pain, or anxiety in such a situation.

If we are capable of deep empathy, if we are able, as Srila Prabhupada states, to understand the experiences of others by comparing them to our own experiences, and we are "factually the friend of everyone," then we experience true Vaishnava compassion.

In other words, we should not be more detached toward the suffering of others than we are toward our own suffering. We should not arrogantly dismiss the anguish of others, as if we are beyond anguish.

A devotee who is truly transcendental to material suffering, and who would not have suffered at all in one of those four airplanes, or in one of those three buildings, would be a most exalted pure devotee and as such would feel great compassion for the fallen conditioned souls.

Those who are not compassionate, and who dismiss as trivial or unimportant such great suffering, are not actually demonstrating advanced detachment in Krishna consciousness, but rather they are demonstrating a disturbing lack of common empathy, and are in fact embarrassing our movement by their neophyte response.

ISKCON devotees oppose animal slaughter. How can we not oppose human slaughter?

If one says, "it's their karma," then we reply that the same is true for cows and other animals who are slaughtered. If one says, "this is just a political fight among materialists,"

I would reply that in the Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krishna clearly distinguishes between acts in the different modes of nature, and He specifically describes certain acts as not only materialistic, but as evil and demonic. It is surely evil and demonic to murder thousands of innocent persons.

Let us remember that in Vedic culture, we are required to treat people according to their innocence and guilt in this life. God will take care of their past karma.

We are not allowed in Vedic culture to abuse people, harm or kill them, and then say, "It must have been your karma." Vedic culture is not moral anarchy in the name of karma. We should be above mundane morality, not below it.

During the Bangladesh War in the early 1970's, Srila Prabhupada strongly condemned the Muslim atrocities against the Hindus, and indeed against other Muslims, in Bangladesh.

Of course in every country on earth there are tragedies, and the devotees will benefit themselves personally, and greatly enhance their preaching, if they are able to achieve a real state of deep empathy, not in the cause of materialism or the bodily concept of life, but as a symptom of a budding self-realization that leads one to feel liberated compassion for all suffering beings".

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Crow and Tal fruit

 

devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”

 

Note: here is that attachment letter.

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

Apologies to theist for high jacking this thread. Actually, you already answered everything as shown above

They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that irrationally and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

The Brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; sat chit ananda vigraha, the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (Which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti.

Our original bodily svarupa form is 'locked sheltered and forever protected' within the realm of the ‘eternal present’, which makes that origin, eternally manifest and always in that state or moment of origin.

In simply terms, we are always in Vaikuntha, right now we are there, but our dream of the material world is so powerful, we cannot see the TRUTH.

But I suppose it is not necessary to understand. The so-called 'origin of the jiva', is not easy to realize.

Doesn’t be sentimental and think 'O he is Indian Guru, so he knows truth' the fact is he does not Know otherwise he wouldn’t beat around the bush with nonsense word jugglery and out rightly say the truth which is –

‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43 -

“Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord”.

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features.

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, secure in that realm of origin.

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing in a perpetual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, which are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginingless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (At least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

And what is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Origin of the jiva and the 'eternal present'

Eventually I have began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.

The following is the final proof, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (Which means eternally when referring to the Kingdom of God), are actually serving Krishna perpetually, as their full devotional bodily form, right at this very moment.

However, presently, due to the free will and choice all marginal living entities have, some have chosen to forget their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka, just like one forgets their present biological body while dreaming.

This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of their character eternal present in Goloka even if they are ‘dreaming or thinking’ they are in the material creation (mahat tattva).

Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction

Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being.has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .”

Srila Prabhupada - “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .

Srila Prabhupada - “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

Srila Prabhupada – “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Our original ‘svarupa’ position is eternal situated within the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka therefore; we are all eternally nitya-siddha in the full expression of our marginal identity, which IS our original and eternal position. However, when the living entity ‘dreams’ they are in the material world, as we are doing now, we presently become covered by our mistaken thoughts and non-Krishna conscious desires due to our choice to dream away in the material creation.

Actually, the Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones beginning with all living entities bodily form devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to the project conditioned thoughts or dreams that become active in the mahat-tattva due to the temporary bodily provisions offered by Maha-Vishnu. Only then, after being frustrated with the mahat-tattva, one can develop an inactive conscious state, or dormant dreamless state in a collective of souls that all manifest the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva. (Conditioned soul)

This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They claim the jiva’s originate from the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing. Claiming that within this impersonal Brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal nonsense idea that the jiva springs into existence from a dormant 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.

you are wrong

 

The residents of Vaikuntha never fall under the influence of the material modes of nature, even when they are dreaming

Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

 

Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

I agree, they only think they do

• 
  
  
  "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body".
  
  
  His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
  
  

• 
  
  
  "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like".
  
  
  "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
  
  

• 
  
  
  "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness."
  
  
  
  Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
  
  
  
  
  "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".
  
  
  
  Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967
  
  
  
  
  "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all".
  
  
  
  Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
  
  
  
  
  "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".
  
  
  
  Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967
  
  
  
  
  "You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".
  
  
  
  Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967
  
  
  
  
  "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".
  
  
  Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967
  
  

• 
  
  
  "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago."
  
  
  Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
  
  

• 
  
  
  "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha".
  
  
  
  Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
  
  
  
  
  "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. .
  
  
  
  Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay
  
  
  
  
  "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi".
  
  
  
  Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban
  
  
  
  
  "Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna".
  
  
  Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami
  
  

• 
  
  
  "However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas."
  
  
  Prema-pradipa, p. 83
  
  

• 
  
  
  "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si-… That is called svarupa-siddhi.
  
  
  Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban
  
  
  

If we are NOT a perpetual bodily form then what are we? To think we come from an inactive state or impersonal position of clear consciousness is impersonalism.

Our nitya siddha or svarupa body IS who are eternally even if we forget that ‘eternal bodily self’ and dream we are nitya baddha if we choose’

It is the nitya baddha dream state, that is the impersonal aspect of the jiva tattva's marginal identity, that can come from a plain sheet of inactive individual consciousness on the atomic ember echelon (that all are collectively the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of Krsna’s creation), ONLY AFTER FIRST experiencing the falling down to material dream bodies or vessels within the material world which is the Maha tattva dream of Maha Vishnu.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation, it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

This is the correct understanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s teachings.

Not really because Theist is not in Srila Narayana Maharaja's sanga. He may be in Alfred E. Newman's group, I'm not sure. I'm more concerned with the split in my trousers especially since my wife won't sew for me anymore.

funny man - He is actually in Lord Caitanya's sanga

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/

 

Sunday, December 28 - Report from Ratnavali dd:

The acupunctarist had suggested that Guru Maharaja be taken to see some nature or greeneries.

Dr. Giriraj prabhu and Guru Maharaja's servants did some research yesterday to see which place was suitable to take Guru Maharaja.

It was decided that today he would first go to have darshan of Sri Radha Giridhari temple which is just nearby, opposite to the Bhaktivedanta hospital and then to National park. Guru Maharaja had his breakfast, facial therapy in the morning and then was taken in the car to the temple. Braja Hari prabhu had purchased a new Innova car so Guru Maharaja could use it during his Mumbai stay. He had sent this car from Juhu to Bhaktivedanta hospital for Guru Maharaja to use.

There was a big gathering of devotees in the temple. Jagajivan prabhu, the Temple President honoured Guru Maharaja by garlanding him and the kirtan party gave a warm reception welcoming Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja was taken in the wheel chair inside the temple. Guru Maharaja had darshan of Sri Sri Jagannatha, Baladeva and Subhadra Devi and Sri Sri Radha Giridhari.

Guru Maharaja made his prayers to the Deities. Sometimes he slowly raised his hand and sometimes he folded his hands to offer prayers. Later he was taken to have darshan of Srila Prabhupada. Jagajivan prabhu offered garland to Srila Prabhupada on behalf of Guru Maharaja. A mike was given to Guru Maharaja and he amazed all of us by starting to lead a kirtan:

The voice was quite clear and everyone repeated and sang in ecstasy. Few devotees have recorded the singing as well as the video clips of this event. As soon as it is edited we will send you the url to watch this glorious event. The devotees didn't want to strain him too much and he was taken back into the car and to continue his ride to National park.

As it was Sunday there was lot of crowd. It is a beautiful place unlike the noisy Mumbai roads. Originally the plan was to bring him early in the morning as there would be fewer crowds but it got delayed. The vehicles were side parked in the woods.

There were many monkeys there. Being in the vehicle Maha Varaha prabhu fed Guru Maharaja fruits while Deva Gauranga prabhu cut them. Ekanath Gaura prabhu, Acintya Nitai prabhu, Isvara Puri prabhu, Tusti Mohan prabhu they were all feeding the monkeys with cucumbers and had lot of fun. It just reminds us of the Krsna's pastimes with the cowherd boys and their feeding butter to the monkeys!

As it was getting late for his lunch we returned back into the car, back to Bhaktivedanta hospital.

Radhanatha Maharaja's blessings asking Guru Maharaja to lead the kirtan the day before yesterday had come true today. May Lord Krsna keep blessing our beloved Gurudeva to fully recover!

Saturday, December 27 - Report from Ratnavali dd:

 

Radhanath Maharaja came to meet Guru Maharaja today morning around 9.15 am along with Yamuna Mataji and Dina Tarini Mataji, Srila Prabhupada's disciples. They had only a brief meeting as Guru Maharaja had to go for physiotherapy session.

In the afternoon at 1pm Radhanath Maharaja, Yamuna Mataji, Dina Tarini Mataji and other gurukuli devotees were scheduled to take lunch at Bhaktivedanta hospital auditorium. Dr. Giriraj prabhu and Dr. Shiromani Mataji had a spontaneous idea to bring Guru Maharaja also to the auditorium to have his lunch along with them. Guru Maharaja immediately agreed to this idea.

He was brought in wheel chair to the auditorium and he was personally received by Radhanath Maharaja. Guru Maharaja had his prasadam as per his diet while his devotee servants fed him. Radhanatha Maharaja's lady disciples had cooked the feast for the guests.

All of them happily relished the prasadam. When they finished their lunch, Guru Maharaja expressed his happiness and thanked Radhanath Maharaja, Yamuna Mataji and Dina Tarini Mataji for their wonderful association.

Jayapataka Maharaja said to Yamuna Mataji how everyday he listens to the Govindam adi purusam song sung by her during the Deity greetings. Yamuna Mataji humbly passed on all her credit to Srila Prabhupada. She said how she is happy to see Guru Maharaja's recovery.

Guru Maharaja mentioned that on the previous day some devotees had sung few bhajans for him. Yamuna Mataji responded if she could also sing for Guru Maharaja one day. Radhanath Maharaja suggested that the kirtan could be performed even at this moment while Guru Maharaja finishes his lunch. Everyone agreed and the gurukulis sang Hare Krsna Maha Mantra with kartalas, mrdangas and harmonium. When they finished Guru Maharaja asked Yamuna Mataji to sing.

Yamuna Mataji sang Namaste Narasimha prayers. Guru Maharaja then asked Radhanatha Maharaja to lead the kirtan and in response Radhanath Maharaja asked Guru Maharaja to lead the kirtan. Everyone felt so jubilant to see their loving reciprocations. Radhanath Maharaja sang so beautifully Hare Krsna Maha Mantra. When Maharaja finished the kirtan Guru Maharaja again asked Yamuna Mataji to sing one more bhajan. She sang the names of Nitai, Gauranga and Jaya Sacinandana.

During the kirtan Guru Maharaja sometimes would be clapping his hands very slowly or tapping his feet and also sometimes he was repeating the kirtan. At the end Guru Maharaja managed by himself to raise both the hands and chant, "Gauranga".

The devotees repeated after him and Guru Maharaja again chanted "Gauranga" and the devotees repeated. Radhanatha Maharaja said to Guru Maharaja, "so you are leading the kirtan Maharaja!" Everyone burst into laughter. It was one of the most unforgettable moments for all those who had gathered. The whole atmosphere was spiritually surcharged with the presence of so many exalted Vaisnavas.

Saturday, December 27 - Report from Vaikunthapati prabhu:

22-Dec-08 - Afternoon shift, 2 pm to 9 pm

Guru Maharaja was taking facial therapy from Dr. Mahabahu prabhu when we arrived to his room. By his expert treatment Guru Maharaja could close his left eye better than before and the face appearance is getting better day by day.

Everyday Guru Maharaja gets 2 or 3 times the facial therapy and each session lasts for 30 minutes. Prasadam was served after his facial therapy. Then the physiotherapist came to see Guru Maharaja to give bed exercises and also to teach Bhadara Balaram prabhu and Ekanath Gaura prabhu so that they can give the same exercises to Guru Maharaja as often possible during the day.

At 4:30 pm the opthologist doctor came with their machine to check Guru Maharaja's eyes. They also appreciate face therapist's treatment that Guru Maharaja can close his left eye better and eventually Guru Maharaja will not have his left eye taped while sleeping at night.

When the devotees were shifting Guru Maharaja to the bed his right hand accidently hit the rails of the bed and Guru Maharaja expressed a sudden pain saying, "ouch!" Immediately Dr.Shiromani mataji said this means the right hand started to sense the pain and it is a good sign.

At 6:15 pm Jagannath, Baladev and Subadra deities came to Guru Maharaja's room. Guru Maharaja took darsan of Them, offered flowers and took a small piece of prasad. After that Narataki Mataji, Srila Prabhupada's disciple who resides above Guru Maharaja's room in the spiritual care department came to see him and recollected how Guru Maharaja was serving so nicely Srila Prabhupada.

Guru Maharaja was so tired after getting so many therapies since the morning, so the servants desired to give him prasadam and put him to early rest. At 8:15 pm Guru Maharaja was served prasadam and at 9:15 pm he was on the bed sleeping.

Ekanath Gaura prabhu shared with us all how in the morning during the physiotherapy session Guru Maharaja showed improvement in his walking using the parallel bars and with the support of the devotees.

21-Dec-08 - afternoon shift 12 noon to 9 pm

Around at 12 am I went to Guru Maharaja's room to join with Bhadra Balaram prabhu. The physiotherapy doctor came to give bed exercises to Guru Maharaja.

The exercises were for his hands, legs and trunk. He was able to sit at the edge of the bed for quite sometime and only with the support of his hands.

He was made to stand and sit for two times with the support of the walker and with the help of devotees. The doctors are focusing now to teach Guru Maharaja to stand on his own. Guru Maharaja sat on a chair and took prasadam. After his prasadam he took rest.

Here in Bhaktivedanta hospital many doctors always come and check Guru Maharaja. In this regard Guru Maharaja also commented that in Hinduja hospital he saw the doctors only few times in a day and the nurses were around him quite often.

But in Bhaktivedanta hospital the doctors are all the time around him and he rarely sees the nurses. He was happy with many doctors taking care of him nicely and the atmosphere here is spiritual.

Yesterday when Dr. Shiromani and another doctor was with Guru Maharaja, a topic came about the hospital deities, Jagannath, Subhadra and Baladeva. They everyday visit the patients and the patients also get the deities prasadam.

Guru Maharaja told them jokingly that the deities don't come to see him. Dr. Shiromani mataji said, "No Guru Maharaja, you were taking rest at the time when They came to this floor and another time you were in the physiotherapy department at the ground floor."

At around 5 pm I saw the Jagannath, Subhadra and Baladeva deities at the 4th floor where Guru Maharaja's deluxe suite is situated. Dr. Shiromani mataji was also present with the deities. I rushed to see if Guru Maharja was awake and he was awake.

Bhadra Balaram prabhu was nearby him. We prepared to receive the deities. The deities arrived after a few minutes and the devotees brought Them closer to Guru Maharaja. He prayed for a moment and offered flowers to Them. He took one small piece of prasad from the deities. He was happy to see Them in his room!

The facial therapist, Dr. Mahabahu prabhu came to begin his course for Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja was made to sit at the edge of the bed and was given facial therapy for half an hour. His face is getting better everyday, still his speaking and facial expressions needs a lot of improvement.

After the theraphy he took some fruits. Ratnavali dd, Devakimayi dd and Madhuri Yamuna dd came to read get well letters for Guru Maharaja. The devotees' get well letters enliven Guru Maharaja always.

After that again he got facial therapy for sometime and Bhadra Balaram prabhu fed him dinner. At around 9 pm the eye specialist came and checked Guru Maharaja's eyes. After that Guru Maharaja was put to sleep.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Sunday, December 28 - Report from Ratnavali dd:

The acupunctarist had suggested that Guru Maharaja be taken to see some nature or greeneries.

Dr. Giriraj prabhu and Guru Maharaja's servants did some research yesterday to see which place was suitable to take Guru Maharaja.

It was decided that today he would first go to have darshan of Sri Radha Giridhari temple which is just nearby, opposite to the Bhaktivedanta hospital and then to National park. Guru Maharaja had his breakfast, facial therapy in the morning and then was taken in the car to the temple. Braja Hari prabhu had purchased a new Innova car so Guru Maharaja could use it during his Mumbai stay. He had sent this car from Juhu to Bhaktivedanta hospital for Guru Maharaja to use.

There was a big gathering of devotees in the temple. Jagajivan prabhu, the Temple President honoured Guru Maharaja by garlanding him and the kirtan party gave a warm reception welcoming Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja was taken in the wheel chair inside the temple. Guru Maharaja had darshan of Sri Sri Jagannatha, Baladeva and Subhadra Devi and Sri Sri Radha Giridhari.

Guru Maharaja made his prayers to the Deities. Sometimes he slowly raised his hand and sometimes he folded his hands to offer prayers. Later he was taken to have darshan of Srila Prabhupada. Jagajivan prabhu offered garland to Srila Prabhupada on behalf of Guru Maharaja. A mike was given to Guru Maharaja and he amazed all of us by starting to lead a kirtan:

The voice was quite clear and everyone repeated and sang in ecstasy. Few devotees have recorded the singing as well as the video clips of this event. As soon as it is edited we will send you the url to watch this glorious event. The devotees didn't want to strain him too much and he was taken back into the car and to continue his ride to National park.

As it was Sunday there was lot of crowd. It is a beautiful place unlike the noisy Mumbai roads. Originally the plan was to bring him early in the morning as there would be fewer crowds but it got delayed. The vehicles were side parked in the woods.

There were many monkeys there. Being in the vehicle Maha Varaha prabhu fed Guru Maharaja fruits while Deva Gauranga prabhu cut them. Ekanath Gaura prabhu, Acintya Nitai prabhu, Isvara Puri prabhu, Tusti Mohan prabhu they were all feeding the monkeys with cucumbers and had lot of fun. It just reminds us of the Krsna's pastimes with the cowherd boys and their feeding butter to the monkeys!

As it was getting late for his lunch we returned back into the car, back to Bhaktivedanta hospital.

Radhanatha Maharaja's blessings asking Guru Maharaja to lead the kirtan the day before yesterday had come true today. May Lord Krsna keep blessing our beloved Gurudeva to fully recover!

Saturday, December 27 - Report from Ratnavali dd:

 

Radhanath Maharaja came to meet Guru Maharaja today morning around 9.15 am along with Yamuna Mataji and Dina Tarini Mataji, Srila Prabhupada's disciples. They had only a brief meeting as Guru Maharaja had to go for physiotherapy session.

In the afternoon at 1pm Radhanath Maharaja, Yamuna Mataji, Dina Tarini Mataji and other gurukuli devotees were scheduled to take lunch at Bhaktivedanta hospital auditorium. Dr. Giriraj prabhu and Dr. Shiromani Mataji had a spontaneous idea to bring Guru Maharaja also to the auditorium to have his lunch along with them. Guru Maharaja immediately agreed to this idea.

He was brought in wheel chair to the auditorium and he was personally received by Radhanath Maharaja. Guru Maharaja had his prasadam as per his diet while his devotee servants fed him. Radhanatha Maharaja's lady disciples had cooked the feast for the guests.

All of them happily relished the prasadam. When they finished their lunch, Guru Maharaja expressed his happiness and thanked Radhanath Maharaja, Yamuna Mataji and Dina Tarini Mataji for their wonderful association.

Jayapataka Maharaja said to Yamuna Mataji how everyday he listens to the Govindam adi purusam song sung by her during the Deity greetings. Yamuna Mataji humbly passed on all her credit to Srila Prabhupada. She said how she is happy to see Guru Maharaja's recovery.

Guru Maharaja mentioned that on the previous day some devotees had sung few bhajans for him. Yamuna Mataji responded if she could also sing for Guru Maharaja one day. Radhanath Maharaja suggested that the kirtan could be performed even at this moment while Guru Maharaja finishes his lunch. Everyone agreed and the gurukulis sang Hare Krsna Maha Mantra with kartalas, mrdangas and harmonium. When they finished Guru Maharaja asked Yamuna Mataji to sing.

Yamuna Mataji sang Namaste Narasimha prayers. Guru Maharaja then asked Radhanatha Maharaja to lead the kirtan and in response Radhanath Maharaja asked Guru Maharaja to lead the kirtan. Everyone felt so jubilant to see their loving reciprocations. Radhanath Maharaja sang so beautifully Hare Krsna Maha Mantra. When Maharaja finished the kirtan Guru Maharaja again asked Yamuna Mataji to sing one more bhajan. She sang the names of Nitai, Gauranga and Jaya Sacinandana.

During the kirtan Guru Maharaja sometimes would be clapping his hands very slowly or tapping his feet and also sometimes he was repeating the kirtan. At the end Guru Maharaja managed by himself to raise both the hands and chant, "Gauranga".

The devotees repeated after him and Guru Maharaja again chanted "Gauranga" and the devotees repeated. Radhanatha Maharaja said to Guru Maharaja, "so you are leading the kirtan Maharaja!" Everyone burst into laughter. It was one of the most unforgettable moments for all those who had gathered. The whole atmosphere was spiritually surcharged with the presence of so many exalted Vaisnavas.

Saturday, December 27 - Report from Vaikunthapati prabhu:

22-Dec-08 - Afternoon shift, 2 pm to 9 pm

Guru Maharaja was taking facial therapy from Dr. Mahabahu prabhu when we arrived to his room. By his expert treatment Guru Maharaja could close his left eye better than before and the face appearance is getting better day by day.

Everyday Guru Maharaja gets 2 or 3 times the facial therapy and each session lasts for 30 minutes. Prasadam was served after his facial therapy. Then the physiotherapist came to see Guru Maharaja to give bed exercises and also to teach Bhadara Balaram prabhu and Ekanath Gaura prabhu so that they can give the same exercises to Guru Maharaja as often possible during the day.

At 4:30 pm the opthologist doctor came with their machine to check Guru Maharaja's eyes. They also appreciate face therapist's treatment that Guru Maharaja can close his left eye better and eventually Guru Maharaja will not have his left eye taped while sleeping at night.

When the devotees were shifting Guru Maharaja to the bed his right hand accidently hit the rails of the bed and Guru Maharaja expressed a sudden pain saying, "ouch!" Immediately Dr.Shiromani mataji said this means the right hand started to sense the pain and it is a good sign.

At 6:15 pm Jagannath, Baladev and Subadra deities came to Guru Maharaja's room. Guru Maharaja took darsan of Them, offered flowers and took a small piece of prasad. After that Narataki Mataji, Srila Prabhupada's disciple who resides above Guru Maharaja's room in the spiritual care department came to see him and recollected how Guru Maharaja was serving so nicely Srila Prabhupada.

Guru Maharaja was so tired after getting so many therapies since the morning, so the servants desired to give him prasadam and put him to early rest. At 8:15 pm Guru Maharaja was served prasadam and at 9:15 pm he was on the bed sleeping.

Ekanath Gaura prabhu shared with us all how in the morning during the physiotherapy session Guru Maharaja showed improvement in his walking using the parallel bars and with the support of the devotees.

21-Dec-08 - afternoon shift 12 noon to 9 pm

Around at 12 am I went to Guru Maharaja's room to join with Bhadra Balaram prabhu. The physiotherapy doctor came to give bed exercises to Guru Maharaja.

The exercises were for his hands, legs and trunk. He was able to sit at the edge of the bed for quite sometime and only with the support of his hands.

He was made to stand and sit for two times with the support of the walker and with the help of devotees. The doctors are focusing now to teach Guru Maharaja to stand on his own. Guru Maharaja sat on a chair and took prasadam. After his prasadam he took rest.

Here in Bhaktivedanta hospital many doctors always come and check Guru Maharaja. In this regard Guru Maharaja also commented that in Hinduja hospital he saw the doctors only few times in a day and the nurses were around him quite often.

But in Bhaktivedanta hospital the doctors are all the time around him and he rarely sees the nurses. He was happy with many doctors taking care of him nicely and the atmosphere here is spiritual.

Yesterday when Dr. Shiromani and another doctor was with Guru Maharaja, a topic came about the hospital deities, Jagannath, Subhadra and Baladeva. They everyday visit the patients and the patients also get the deities prasadam.

Guru Maharaja told them jokingly that the deities don't come to see him. Dr. Shiromani mataji said, "No Guru Maharaja, you were taking rest at the time when They came to this floor and another time you were in the physiotherapy department at the ground floor."

At around 5 pm I saw the Jagannath, Subhadra and Baladeva deities at the 4th floor where Guru Maharaja's deluxe suite is situated. Dr. Shiromani mataji was also present with the deities. I rushed to see if Guru Maharja was awake and he was awake.

Bhadra Balaram prabhu was nearby him. We prepared to receive the deities. The deities arrived after a few minutes and the devotees brought Them closer to Guru Maharaja. He prayed for a moment and offered flowers to Them. He took one small piece of prasad from the deities. He was happy to see Them in his room!

The facial therapist, Dr. Mahabahu prabhu came to begin his course for Guru Maharaja. Guru Maharaja was made to sit at the edge of the bed and was given facial therapy for half an hour. His face is getting better everyday, still his speaking and facial expressions needs a lot of improvement.

After the theraphy he took some fruits. Ratnavali dd, Devakimayi dd and Madhuri Yamuna dd came to read get well letters for Guru Maharaja. The devotees' get well letters enliven Guru Maharaja always.

After that again he got facial therapy for sometime and Bhadra Balaram prabhu fed him dinner. At around 9 pm the eye specialist came and checked Guru Maharaja's eyes. After that Guru Maharaja was put to sleep.

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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in this world however, if we become Krishna conscious, isn't it a possibility without that dreaded inbred human fear of totalitarianism, facism, didtatorships and peronality selfish 'worship me' cults (like that clever dictator ***** Swami and his cronnie 'yes men')

Srila Prabhupada "In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation.

 

Srila Prabhupada "So let there beone common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krishna. And one mantra only--Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.Srila Prabhupada's lectures on Bhagavad-gita

 

In the beginning of ISKCON, all there was , was Book distribution, Deity worship, buying Temples, Spiritual Sky, and any other way to make money buy hook or crook' as Prabhupada encouraged us to do. WHY? Because we were laying the foundations of a movement to last 10,000 years. Back then we bought all our major Temples and farms. The varna asrama was there in imitation and ‘talk’ only.

Everyone was encouraged to be a book distributor, if you could not distribute books, it was very hard to be a Temple devotee back then. The Book distributors were the demigods of ISKCON in those days, better than the lowly pot washer, pujari, the ‘fringes’ as buddhi and the boys called them, at Spiritual Sky.

In 1973, Chittahari called me from Sydney Temple to go to Adelaide to ‘pick the bone’ (ISKCON slang for collecting money selling books.

So I went to Adelaide and at first sold hundreds of books, collecting $150 or more dollars a day, a lot of bread (Luxmi) back in those days. Anyway after a few weeks my ‘pick’ went down to $90 a day, then 60, then 40 then going to the city library to read the Mahabharata. I was fried and just could not keep up the momentum. Chittahari was furious when I came back with no money and rang Madhudvisa to complain. He put me on pot washing duty as punishment and you know I was far happier washing pots than selling books 24/7.

I clearly understood the great importance of book distribution as laying the foundations down, my greatest ecstasy ever was selling the Krsna Book trilogy with Buddhimanta, Balarama ect that night in late 1973, we took over down Town Melbourne and I will never forget that everywhere I looked, EVERYONE was carrying the Krishna Book trilogy. That night we went back to Burnet street Temple in St,kilda and everyone was counting their ‘pick’, then Buddhimanta picked up a wad of $20 notes and through them at Yasomatinandana and then he through his money at Balarama and Hari Sauri. Buddhi also grabbed all the money from others and used me as a money tree, burying me in all this money.

 

How much was it?

 

Well within six months we bought the new Melbourne Temple that today is valued at $11,000,000

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

Varna or Asrama is always in socirty because of our different individual talents, not everyone can be a book distributor but I understand its pioneering impotance.

Originally Posted by bhaktatraveler

I am Caturbahu das(RCB), not Mark, my bestest friend in the whole world that I met here on line at this fourm DVD trolling 2 yrs ago.

 

Yes, your right about any and all ISKCON related prejects, not DVD centered, that includes everything in India too. Any outside devotee co-op's that would be DVD are going to be very pioneering in mood, to say the least. No money, lots of cross varna action, mostly sudra. Because the majority are sudra and the farm life is very labor intensive by nature.

 

I live in Alachua and have talked to mostly every one I can corral and no one is interested as Srila Prabhupada explains it. Hell the big smelly cheese Tamohara will not even sit with me and books for a pow-wow. I have know this person sense the deities were instaled here in 74'! Typical! They are just comfortable with pretents and not substance. Soon though they will have their collective hands full with the symptoms of a great depression far beyond what the last one was. Why? because 80% of the population lived on mostly food sufficient farms back in the 30's. Now it is 85% in the cities and the rest, 15% on factory type industrial farms, very dependant on heavy metal machines run by the black blood of the earth. With cemical coctails masqueradeing as fertilizer. Very little food is being produce individually for personal consumption, big mistake. On the devotees part too!

 

Yeah, there's hell to pay even for the devotees that rejected this beutifull solution to the continous fall down of the brahmanas that the movement was supposted to be contructed with. From 74' on it was to be a DVD movement, changed to the laws of 8(4 varnas + 4 asramas)

 

You want leadership? You have to have a ksatriya. Prabhupada is the consumate brahman. The rest of DVD will fall into place with that common ground.....SB. 1.17.45

 

The start is to know your own varna, always start at the begining and that is yourself. Know your varna, know your asrama.

 

Implementation is the cooperation amoung varnas and asramas. Be honest not to take asrama or varana, what is not yours. Srila Prabhupada said to begin in the pressent day(74') city and farm temples. In other words it is about individuals cooperation, not just farms, in the city temples too.

 

At this point I think only nessesity will be the mother of surender and cooperation. I do not fore see anything more than simple talk coming out of this post.

 

Living together has now been lost by a planed contrivence from your pressent day leadership. Harivilas once told me that there will be no more open asramas in ISKCON that they(GBC) were creating a karmi church like environment on purpose. Because to have a spirirtual commune was to hard for the cheaters to control. Divide and conquer don't you know?

 

I think the proverbial rug has to be pulled out from underneath every devotee for any real implimentation by division of work and life style to take place amoung them. Just like Americans will have to have guns in there faces held by the very army their tax dollars support before they will get it that all freedom is gone in these here dis-united states and hell is just around the corner!

 

Do you people know that we are 2 states away from a Constitusional Convention? That is to rewrite the constitution of the united states! Here comes the stinky stuff! LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

intersting heart felt read, thank you

Is this Prabhupada's prediction? Another terror attack could lead to war between India and Pakistan

London/Mumbai, (ANI): Sources close to Indian intelligence have claimed that another terror attack before the 2009 general election would almost certainly make war between India and Pakistan inevitable.

America and Britain are keen that the present friction between Islamabad and New Delhi does not distract Pakistan, and make it take a decision to end their offensive against Al-Qaeda and Taliban “safe havens” in tribal areas close to the Afghan border.

According to The Sunday Times, an Indian intelligence report claims the Mumbai gunmen were among a large group of volunteer “fedayeen” trained in commando tactics by Pakistan army and navy instructors over 18 months from December 2006. “The training of these 500 men was in three phases. The first was basic physical fitness and firearms training. The second was marine navigation and swimming.

The third involved training to sabotage underwater installations such as oil rigs, ships and submarines,” said one official. “They were trained to a level of US Seals or Pakistani marine commandos. They were elite. Ten of these men were the ones who attacked Mumbai,” the report claims. Senior US officials believe “rogue and retired” ISI officials have helped Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorists carry out a number of attacks, including last July’’s bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul, which killed 58. “It’’s pretty clear that the LeT was behind the attacks.

There is nothing that would point at the moment to direct links between the attacks and the ISI, but the ISI has a long association with the LeT and helped to create it,” the Sunday Times quoted a western diplomat, as saying. “The Indians don”t believe it is rogue and retired elements. In the Kabul embassy attack in July, the link [to the ISI] was more direct. But this is how they work, through retired officers,” he added. (ANI)

What is the jiva's relation to hladhini shakti, to Radha and the gopies? Krishna is expanding in two ways there is no third catorgory of souls

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third catorgory of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

Srila Prabhupada - “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha”

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada - ‘“Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti"

There are also many many expansions of Radharani also in the catorgory of hladhini Shakti however they are not jiva tattva they are Vishnu tattva.

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Prabhupada taught from the very beginning and always re-emphasized—that just as we have a desire to love and have pleasure, so that desire exists in the Supreme Person, Krishna. But when He wants to desire, He doesn’t desire pleasure from an ordinary person. He expands into the pleasure potency and that is Radharani.

So actually Radharani is not different from Krishna. As Prabhupada puts it in the introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya, “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha. Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisance’s to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha Krishna.”

In that ‘69 Radhastami lecture Prabhupada began to sing the mantra, “Tapta kancana gaurangi radhe vrndavanesvari” He also mentioned that we should approach Radharani and then we can get Krishna’s favour.

“If we approach Krishna through Radharani, through Her mercy, then it become very easy. If Radharani recommend, “This devotee is very nice” then Krishna immediately accepts, however a fool I may be. Because Radharani recommends it, Krishna accepts.

Therefore in Vrndavana you will find all the devotees, they are chanting more Radha’s name than Krishna’s. Wherever you go, you will find the devotees are addressing “Jaya Radhe”.

You still will find in Vrndavana. They are glorifying Radharani. They are more interested in worshipping Radharani. Because however fallen I may be, if somewhere or another I can please Radharani then it’s very easy for me to understand Krishna.”

Prabhupada criticized people who didn’t understand Radharani even if they did live in Vrndavana. But somehow he was favourably moved by the simple chanting of Radhe Radhe even by seemingly ordinary people in Vrndavana.

I (Satsvarupa Maharaj) remember going on many morning walks with Prabhupada on Bhaktivedanta Swami Marga and sometimes rikshaw wallas would stop their rikshaw, get down, take off their shoes, make obeisance’s, and say “Jaya Radhe”.

In his lectures in other parts of the world Prabhupada would talk about it. And through Prabhupada’s eyes we Western disciples come to think that this was the essence of Vrndavana where even ordinary people chant Jaya Radhe. Nowhere else in the whole world, even in India, do you find that. So even if their chanting is not with full understanding Prabhupada liked it.

Another indication of Prabhupada’s deep affection for Srimati Radharani was that he would always begin his lecture by singing “Jaya Radha Madhava”. We don’t find that other Gaudiya Vaishnavas begin their lectures by singing this song as a regulative principle. But Prabhupada always did it and sometimes he would fall into deep ecstasies and not be able to speak.

We also know that Prabhupada’s father prayed that he could please become a devotee of Srimati Radharani.

Also, when Prabhupada was on the boat to America he wrote a poem in which he said, “My dear brothers, you cannot get success in Krishna consciousness unless you worship Srimati Radharani.”

Another important point is that as Radharani worshipped Krishna in the mood of separation, after Krishna left Vrndavana, so Lord Caitanya was in this mood. And the six Gosvamis took up Lord Caitanya’s demonstration of separation. Prabhupada indicates that all sincere and serious devotees in this line should also take this up. There are a few examples of his saying that.

Here is one from the 1969 Radhastami lecture. Prabhupada quoted “He radhe vrajadevike ca lalite, he nanda suno kutah”.

“Where, Radharani, where are You? Where are Your associates? Where are You, Nanda Suno, the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krishna? Where are you all? They were searching after. They never said, “I have seen Krishna dancing with the gopis. Last night I saw.” This is sahajiya.

They take everything very cheap. They take Krishna very cheap and Radharani very cheap as if they can see every night. No. The gosvamis don’t teach us like that. They are searching after.

“So we have to follow the footprints of the Gosvamis how to search out Krishna and Radharani. (We may do this in Vrndavana) or within our heart....This process of devotional service is taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Don’t say that very easily we have seen Krishna or seen Radharani in Rasa Lila. No not like that. Feel the separation. The more you feel separation from Krishna you should understand that you are advancing.”

Prabhupada told us, If you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord He will reveal Himself to you, “Here I am.” We should feel separation of Krishna just like Radharani, as Lord Caitanya teaches, and engage our tongues in the service of the Lord, then one day when we are mature we will see Krishna eye to eye.

This same point is described in Antya Lila Chapter 14 of Caitanya-caritamrta. Krishna dasa Kaviraja tells us that Radharani’s emotions after seeing Uddhava exactly corresponded to those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Then in the purport Prabhupada says that some theosophists declare, “because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, such cultivation of separation is easy for Him but difficult for the living entity. And so we can approach Krishna in any way we like.

To nullify this idea, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated practically how one can achieve love of Krishna by adopting Srimati Radharani’s mood in separation from Krishna.” (Antya lila 14 14)

Although these confidential matters are not to be cheaply taken up, yet such an esoteric doctrine as separation from Krishna in the mood of Radharani, is something Prabhupada recommends.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lamented, “I found Krishna in Vrndavana, and now I have again lost Him and come to Kuruksetra. Unless one is a very highly advanced devotee, he cannot understand these intricate feelings. The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, however, has tried to explain this divyon mada as far as possible, and it is our duty simply to appreciate it as far as possible.

Therefore the author has made the following request, “My dear readers, simply try to hear this description with faith and love. That will help you to understand transcendental ecstasy and at last you will achieve love of God very easily.” (Antya 14.37 purport)

In the Krishna Book Prabhupada also recommend to all devotees the mood of Radharani in separation. He says that the six Gosvamis were in this mood and so was Lord Caitanya.

“He was in the role of Radharani, feeling separation of Krishna. Those who are in the disciplic succession of Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya should also feel the separation of Krishna, worshipping His transcendental form and discussing His transcendental teachings, His pastimes, His qualities entourage and association.

The spiritual masters should enrich the devotees to the highest devotional perfection. Feeling constant separation while engaged in the service of the Lord is the perfection of Krishna consciousness.” (Krishna Book, Chapter 34)

There are just two more short quotes that I have chosen because of Prabhupada’s personal use of words in describing Radharani. This give us another glimpse into the fact that although he didn’t indulge in talking so much about Radharani, his feelings are very great within.

One statement occurs in the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where he is discussing the feelings of separation felt by the members of the Yadu dynasty for Krishna:

“The feelings of separation cannot be described, but it can simply be imagined by devotees only. After His separation from Vrndavana and the innocent rural cowherd boys, girls, ladies and others, hey all felt shock through their lives, and the separation of Radharani, the most beloved cowherd girl, is beyond expression.

Once they met at Kuruksetra during a solar eclipse, and the feeling which was expressed by them is heart rending.” (SB 1.10. verses 9 & 10 purport)

A final quote is from Caitanya-caritamrta about the Supreme position of Radharani even in relationship to Krishna. This is spoken by Lord Caitanya while dancing at the Ratha Yatra and speaking about Radha and Krishna:

Sri Krishna continued, all the inhabitants of Vrndavana dhama—my mother, father, cowherd boyfriends and everything else—are like my life and soul. And among all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis are my very life and soul. Among the gopis, You Srimati Radharani, are the chief. Therefore you are the very life of My life.

In the purport Prabhupada says:

Srimati Radharani is the center of all Vrndavana’s activities. In Vrndavana, Krishna is the instrument of Srimati Radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of Vrndavana still chant “Jaya Radhe”.

From Krishna’s own statement given herein, it appears that Radharani is the Queen of Vrndavana and that Krishna is simply Her decoration. Krishna is known as Madana Mohana, the enchanter of Cupid, but Srimati Radharani is the enchanter of Krishna. (Madhya lila 13.150 verse and purport)

So we like to hear of Srimati Radharani from Srila Prabhupada. It is the safe and most expert way. Because, as Srila Prabhupada writes, “The spiritual master is always considered one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representative of Sri Nityananda prabhu.” (CC Adi 1.46)

note, some reseach here is from Satsvarupa Maharaj

Krishna is expanding in two ways there is no third catorgory of souls

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third catorgory of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

Srila Prabhupada - “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha”

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada - ‘“Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti"

There are also many many expansions of Radharani also in the catorgory of hladhini Shakti however they are not jiva tattva they are Vishnu tattva.

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Prabhupada taught from the very beginning and always re-emphasized—that just as we have a desire to love and have pleasure, so that desire exists in the Supreme Person, Krishna. But when He wants to desire, He doesn’t desire pleasure from an ordinary person. He expands into the pleasure potency and that is Radharani.

So actually Radharani is not different from Krishna. As Prabhupada puts it in the introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya, “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha. Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisance’s to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha Krishna.”

In that ‘69 Radhastami lecture Prabhupada began to sing the mantra, “Tapta kancana gaurangi radhe vrndavanesvari” He also mentioned that we should approach Radharani and then we can get Krishna’s favour.

“If we approach Krishna through Radharani, through Her mercy, then it become very easy. If Radharani recommend, “This devotee is very nice” then Krishna immediately accepts, however a fool I may be. Because Radharani recommends it, Krishna accepts.

Therefore in Vrndavana you will find all the devotees, they are chanting more Radha’s name than Krishna’s. Wherever you go, you will find the devotees are addressing “Jaya Radhe”.

You still will find in Vrndavana. They are glorifying Radharani. They are more interested in worshipping Radharani. Because however fallen I may be, if somewhere or another I can please Radharani then it’s very easy for me to understand Krishna.”

Prabhupada criticized people who didn’t understand Radharani even if they did live in Vrndavana. But somehow he was favourably moved by the simple chanting of Radhe Radhe even by seemingly ordinary people in Vrndavana.

I (Satsvarupa Maharaj) remember going on many morning walks with Prabhupada on Bhaktivedanta Swami Marga and sometimes rikshaw wallas would stop their rikshaw, get down, take off their shoes, make obeisance’s, and say “Jaya Radhe”.

In his lectures in other parts of the world Prabhupada would talk about it. And through Prabhupada’s eyes we Western disciples come to think that this was the essence of Vrndavana where even ordinary people chant Jaya Radhe. Nowhere else in the whole world, even in India, do you find that. So even if their chanting is not with full understanding Prabhupada liked it.

Another indication of Prabhupada’s deep affection for Srimati Radharani was that he would always begin his lecture by singing “Jaya Radha Madhava”. We don’t find that other Gaudiya Vaishnavas begin their lectures by singing this song as a regulative principle. But Prabhupada always did it and sometimes he would fall into deep ecstasies and not be able to speak.

We also know that Prabhupada’s father prayed that he could please become a devotee of Srimati Radharani.

Also, when Prabhupada was on the boat to America he wrote a poem in which he said, “My dear brothers, you cannot get success in Krishna consciousness unless you worship Srimati Radharani.”

Another important point is that as Radharani worshipped Krishna in the mood of separation, after Krishna left Vrndavana, so Lord Caitanya was in this mood. And the six Gosvamis took up Lord Caitanya’s demonstration of separation. Prabhupada indicates that all sincere and serious devotees in this line should also take this up. There are a few examples of his saying that.

Here is one from the 1969 Radhastami lecture. Prabhupada quoted “He radhe vrajadevike ca lalite, he nanda suno kutah”.

“Where, Radharani, where are You? Where are Your associates? Where are You, Nanda Suno, the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krishna? Where are you all? They were searching after. They never said, “I have seen Krishna dancing with the gopis. Last night I saw.” This is sahajiya.

They take everything very cheap. They take Krishna very cheap and Radharani very cheap as if they can see every night. No. The gosvamis don’t teach us like that. They are searching after.

“So we have to follow the footprints of the Gosvamis how to search out Krishna and Radharani. (We may do this in Vrndavana) or within our heart....This process of devotional service is taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Don’t say that very easily we have seen Krishna or seen Radharani in Rasa Lila. No not like that. Feel the separation. The more you feel separation from Krishna you should understand that you are advancing.”

Prabhupada told us, If you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord He will reveal Himself to you, “Here I am.” We should feel separation of Krishna just like Radharani, as Lord Caitanya teaches, and engage our tongues in the service of the Lord, then one day when we are mature we will see Krishna eye to eye.

This same point is described in Antya Lila Chapter 14 of Caitanya-caritamrta. Krishna dasa Kaviraja tells us that Radharani’s emotions after seeing Uddhava exactly corresponded to those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Then in the purport Prabhupada says that some theosophists declare, “because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, such cultivation of separation is easy for Him but difficult for the living entity. And so we can approach Krishna in any way we like.

To nullify this idea, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated practically how one can achieve love of Krishna by adopting Srimati Radharani’s mood in separation from Krishna.” (Antya lila 14 14)

Although these confidential matters are not to be cheaply taken up, yet such an esoteric doctrine as separation from Krishna in the mood of Radharani, is something Prabhupada recommends.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lamented, “I found Krishna in Vrndavana, and now I have again lost Him and come to Kuruksetra. Unless one is a very highly advanced devotee, he cannot understand these intricate feelings. The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, however, has tried to explain this divyon mada as far as possible, and it is our duty simply to appreciate it as far as possible.

Therefore the author has made the following request, “My dear readers, simply try to hear this description with faith and love. That will help you to understand transcendental ecstasy and at last you will achieve love of God very easily.” (Antya 14.37 purport)

In the Krishna Book Prabhupada also recommend to all devotees the mood of Radharani in separation. He says that the six Gosvamis were in this mood and so was Lord Caitanya.

“He was in the role of Radharani, feeling separation of Krishna. Those who are in the disciplic succession of Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya should also feel the separation of Krishna, worshipping His transcendental form and discussing His transcendental teachings, His pastimes, His qualities entourage and association.

The spiritual masters should enrich the devotees to the highest devotional perfection. Feeling constant separation while engaged in the service of the Lord is the perfection of Krishna consciousness.” (Krishna Book, Chapter 34)

There are just two more short quotes that I have chosen because of Prabhupada’s personal use of words in describing Radharani. This give us another glimpse into the fact that although he didn’t indulge in talking so much about Radharani, his feelings are very great within.

One statement occurs in the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where he is discussing the feelings of separation felt by the members of the Yadu dynasty for Krishna:

“The feelings of separation cannot be described, but it can simply be imagined by devotees only. After His separation from Vrndavana and the innocent rural cowherd boys, girls, ladies and others, hey all felt shock through their lives, and the separation of Radharani, the most beloved cowherd girl, is beyond expression.

Once they met at Kuruksetra during a solar eclipse, and the feeling which was expressed by them is heart rending.” (SB 1.10. verses 9 & 10 purport)

A final quote is from Caitanya-caritamrta about the Supreme position of Radharani even in relationship to Krishna. This is spoken by Lord Caitanya while dancing at the Ratha Yatra and speaking about Radha and Krishna:

Sri Krishna continued, all the inhabitants of Vrndavana dhama—my mother, father, cowherd boyfriends and everything else—are like my life and soul. And among all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis are my very life and soul. Among the gopis, You Srimati Radharani, are the chief. Therefore you are the very life of My life.

In the purport Prabhupada says:

Srimati Radharani is the center of all Vrndavana’s activities. In Vrndavana, Krishna is the instrument of Srimati Radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of Vrndavana still chant “Jaya Radhe”.

From Krishna’s own statement given herein, it appears that Radharani is the Queen of Vrndavana and that Krishna is simply Her decoration. Krishna is known as Madana Mohana, the enchanter of Cupid, but Srimati Radharani is the enchanter of Krishna. (Madhya lila 13.150 verse and purport)

So we like to hear of Srimati Radharani from Srila Prabhupada. It is the safe and most expert way. Because, as Srila Prabhupada writes, “The spiritual master is always considered one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representative of Sri Nityananda prabhu.” (CC Adi 1.46)

note, some reseach here is from Satsvarupa Maharaj

What is jiva's relation to hladhini shakti, to Radha and the gopies?.

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third catorgory of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

Srila Prabhupada - “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha”

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada - ‘“Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti"

There are also many many expansions of Radharani also in the catorgory of hladhini Shakti however they are not jiva tattva they are Vishnu tattva.

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Prabhupada taught from the very beginning and always re-emphasized—that just as we have a desire to love and have pleasure, so that desire exists in the Supreme Person, Krishna. But when He wants to desire, He doesn’t desire pleasure from an ordinary person. He expands into the pleasure potency and that is Radharani.

So actually Radharani is not different from Krishna. As Prabhupada puts it in the introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya, “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha. Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisance’s to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha Krishna.”

In that ‘69 Radhastami lecture Prabhupada began to sing the mantra, “Tapta kancana gaurangi radhe vrndavanesvari” He also mentioned that we should approach Radharani and then we can get Krishna’s favour.

“If we approach Krishna through Radharani, through Her mercy, then it become very easy. If Radharani recommend, “This devotee is very nice” then Krishna immediately accepts, however a fool I may be. Because Radharani recommends it, Krishna accepts.

Therefore in Vrndavana you will find all the devotees, they are chanting more Radha’s name than Krishna’s. Wherever you go, you will find the devotees are addressing “Jaya Radhe”.

You still will find in Vrndavana. They are glorifying Radharani. They are more interested in worshipping Radharani. Because however fallen I may be, if somewhere or another I can please Radharani then it’s very easy for me to understand Krishna.”

Prabhupada criticized people who didn’t understand Radharani even if they did live in Vrndavana. But somehow he was favourably moved by the simple chanting of Radhe Radhe even by seemingly ordinary people in Vrndavana.

I (Satsvarupa Maharaj) remember going on many morning walks with Prabhupada on Bhaktivedanta Swami Marga and sometimes rikshaw wallas would stop their rikshaw, get down, take off their shoes, make obeisance’s, and say “Jaya Radhe”.

In his lectures in other parts of the world Prabhupada would talk about it. And through Prabhupada’s eyes we Western disciples come to think that this was the essence of Vrndavana where even ordinary people chant Jaya Radhe. Nowhere else in the whole world, even in India, do you find that. So even if their chanting is not with full understanding Prabhupada liked it.

Another indication of Prabhupada’s deep affection for Srimati Radharani was that he would always begin his lecture by singing “Jaya Radha Madhava”. We don’t find that other Gaudiya Vaishnavas begin their lectures by singing this song as a regulative principle. But Prabhupada always did it and sometimes he would fall into deep ecstasies and not be able to speak.

We also know that Prabhupada’s father prayed that he could please become a devotee of Srimati Radharani.

Also, when Prabhupada was on the boat to America he wrote a poem in which he said, “My dear brothers, you cannot get success in Krishna consciousness unless you worship Srimati Radharani.”

Another important point is that as Radharani worshipped Krishna in the mood of separation, after Krishna left Vrndavana, so Lord Caitanya was in this mood. And the six Gosvamis took up Lord Caitanya’s demonstration of separation. Prabhupada indicates that all sincere and serious devotees in this line should also take this up. There are a few examples of his saying that.

Here is one from the 1969 Radhastami lecture. Prabhupada quoted “He radhe vrajadevike ca lalite, he nanda suno kutah”.

“Where, Radharani, where are You? Where are Your associates? Where are You, Nanda Suno, the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krishna? Where are you all? They were searching after. They never said, “I have seen Krishna dancing with the gopis. Last night I saw.” This is sahajiya.

They take everything very cheap. They take Krishna very cheap and Radharani very cheap as if they can see every night. No. The gosvamis don’t teach us like that. They are searching after.

“So we have to follow the footprints of the Gosvamis how to search out Krishna and Radharani. (We may do this in Vrndavana) or within our heart....This process of devotional service is taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Don’t say that very easily we have seen Krishna or seen Radharani in Rasa Lila. No not like that. Feel the separation. The more you feel separation from Krishna you should understand that you are advancing.”

Prabhupada told us, If you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord He will reveal Himself to you, “Here I am.” We should feel separation of Krishna just like Radharani, as Lord Caitanya teaches, and engage our tongues in the service of the Lord, then one day when we are mature we will see Krishna eye to eye.

This same point is described in Antya Lila Chapter 14 of Caitanya-caritamrta. Krishna dasa Kaviraja tells us that Radharani’s emotions after seeing Uddhava exactly corresponded to those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Then in the purport Prabhupada says that some theosophists declare, “because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, such cultivation of separation is easy for Him but difficult for the living entity. And so we can approach Krishna in any way we like.

To nullify this idea, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated practically how one can achieve love of Krishna by adopting Srimati Radharani’s mood in separation from Krishna.” (Antya lila 14 14)

Although these confidential matters are not to be cheaply taken up, yet such an esoteric doctrine as separation from Krishna in the mood of Radharani, is something Prabhupada recommends.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lamented, “I found Krishna in Vrndavana, and now I have again lost Him and come to Kuruksetra. Unless one is a very highly advanced devotee, he cannot understand these intricate feelings. The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, however, has tried to explain this divyon mada as far as possible, and it is our duty simply to appreciate it as far as possible.

Therefore the author has made the following request, “My dear readers, simply try to hear this description with faith and love. That will help you to understand transcendental ecstasy and at last you will achieve love of God very easily.” (Antya 14.37 purport)

In the Krishna Book Prabhupada also recommend to all devotees the mood of Radharani in separation. He says that the six Gosvamis were in this mood and so was Lord Caitanya.

“He was in the role of Radharani, feeling separation of Krishna. Those who are in the disciplic succession of Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya should also feel the separation of Krishna, worshipping His transcendental form and discussing His transcendental teachings, His pastimes, His qualities entourage and association.

The spiritual masters should enrich the devotees to the highest devotional perfection. Feeling constant separation while engaged in the service of the Lord is the perfection of Krishna consciousness.” (Krishna Book, Chapter 34)

There are just two more short quotes that I have chosen because of Prabhupada’s personal use of words in describing Radharani. This give us another glimpse into the fact that although he didn’t indulge in talking so much about Radharani, his feelings are very great within.

One statement occurs in the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where he is discussing the feelings of separation felt by the members of the Yadu dynasty for Krishna:

“The feelings of separation cannot be described, but it can simply be imagined by devotees only. After His separation from Vrndavana and the innocent rural cowherd boys, girls, ladies and others, hey all felt shock through their lives, and the separation of Radharani, the most beloved cowherd girl, is beyond expression.

Once they met at Kuruksetra during a solar eclipse, and the feeling which was expressed by them is heart rending.” (SB 1.10. verses 9 & 10 purport)

A final quote is from Caitanya-caritamrta about the Supreme position of Radharani even in relationship to Krishna. This is spoken by Lord Caitanya while dancing at the Ratha Yatra and speaking about Radha and Krishna:

Sri Krishna continued, all the inhabitants of Vrndavana dhama—my mother, father, cowherd boyfriends and everything else—are like my life and soul. And among all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis are my very life and soul. Among the gopis, You Srimati Radharani, are the chief. Therefore you are the very life of My life.

In the purport Prabhupada says:

Srimati Radharani is the center of all Vrndavana’s activities. In Vrndavana, Krishna is the instrument of Srimati Radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of Vrndavana still chant “Jaya Radhe”.

From Krishna’s own statement given herein, it appears that Radharani is the Queen of Vrndavana and that Krishna is simply Her decoration. Krishna is known as Madana Mohana, the enchanter of Cupid, but Srimati Radharani is the enchanter of Krishna. (Madhya lila 13.150 verse and purport)

So we like to hear of Srimati Radharani from Srila Prabhupada. It is the safe and most expert way. Because, as Srila Prabhupada writes, “The spiritual master is always considered one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representative of Sri Nityananda prabhu.” (CC Adi 1.46)

note, some reseach here is from Satsvarupa Maharaj

What is Visnu's dreaming? What is jiva's illusion?

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. If they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities that have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the mahat-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; they put the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation trying to enjoy in their own way.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the mahat-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha or marginal. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy”.

Yes, presently we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

Some interesting quotes are as follows -

Bhaktivinoda Thakura. – “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha . . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada - ‘‘Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.’ Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj – “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘ ‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila

5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘ ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are.

All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left.

Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked,

‘What does this mean?’

We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again,

‘What does this mean?’

We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said,

‘Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.’

Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. If they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position.

Therefore the ‘perishable’ (nitya-baddha consciousness) is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones imperishable marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha identity, which is everlastingly beyond the mundane decaying effect of time, past, present and future in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and ‘always’ in Goloka due to the 'eternal present'.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this in his Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means, which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world.

Material time is divided into past, present and future.

But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time.

Therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya’, ‘the spiritual world became manifest’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva’, material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state.

For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time.

Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time.

Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit…….. I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly.

As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception.

You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world.

Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.”

(Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

To put it simply, there are only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva

While some gopis ARE expansions of Radharani, others are jiva-tattva.

Just like the Pancha Tattva, four members are Vishnu tattva while the fifth is jiva tattva

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the combination Radha and Krishna Himself, and is the highest manifestation of God in the combined form of the Supreme couple.However Krishna is the original

Nityananda is Krishna's first personal expansion.

Advaita Acharya is a combined incarnation of Lord Vishnu & Lord Shiva (Harihara).

Gadadhara is an incarnation of Krishna's internal energy.

Srivasa is Krishna's pure devotee Narada Muni who is the only jiva tattva in the Pancha tattva.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

What does the word "MARGINAL" mean when referring to the living enttity"

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (end of discourse only)

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in His mahat-tattva material creation, taking on a bogus identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

On return to the 'eternal present’, or simply waking up from dreaming in the mahat-tattva, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees – every living entity is represented there by their permanent ‘svarupa’ body (Also known as the Siddha-jiva) of whom is them without beginning or end

It is Srila Prabhupada who clearly states we have created a dream existence in the material creation due to choosing to forget Krishna and the nitya-siddha body we serve Krishna as eternally

Even many present day ISKCON devotees do not understand what Srila Prabhupada has told us about our origin long ago that I was also fortunate to hear.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction

Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, that is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction. .”

Srila Prabhupada - “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .

Srila Prabhupada - “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

Srila Prabhupada – “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Germany, June 22, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada said to me in the Sydney Temple room in early 1973, when he came in while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada had started ecstatically laughing when he saw I had put paintings of the Pancha tattva and Krsna and Balarama on the step of his Vyasa chair –

“That’s not where the Lord goes”. Srila Prabhupada said

Then after a short silence he added,

Srila Prabhupada - “Soon you will understand the illusion this temporary material world is, try to understand that YOUR real bodily form is ALWAYS in Vaikuntha” then left it at that and continued laughing at where I put these paintings while I cleaned the walls.

At the time I realized the importance at what he said which was we only dream or think we are in the material world when in perpetual reality, we (our real bodily form) is always in Goloka.

It was many, many years later when the ‘origin of the jiva’ debate AGAIN started (Actually that debate started in 1972 and ended with Prabhupada’s words to me, at least as far as I was concerned on this subject, in 1973).

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and night-time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna. We only think or dream we fall down when actually there is never a fall down of our Spiritual body from Goloka

The material world is not an illusion; it is very real but temporary

Srila Prabhupada has said that those polluted by Mayavadis teachings foolishly believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or born from a plain sheet of consciousness, foolishly saying the jiva springs from a plain sheet of consciousness and not Goloka Vrndavana.

Prabhupada, ISKCON's founder rejected such impersonal nonsense that unfortunately pollute other Gaudiya traditions

In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and what is, or where is our true eternal bodily form and identity?

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna. In actual fact, we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming we are not there but live in a world made up of our own imagination.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves and not Krishna.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down, it is a sub-conscious one. Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future.

So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be however, some choose to forget and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have an Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets however, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu. Only on the outer edges of the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist. Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal. One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. the Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fct there is Goloka and is the origin of ALL nitya-siddha living entities - This iscalled PERSONALISM

Also I have not added anything, it is all coming from Prabhupada.

Therefore, other than my personal association with Prabhupada from 1972 to 1976, I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We cannot leave. (Out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?

Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse

Pusta Krishna Swami: iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: "O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Srila Prabhupada: Purport?

Pusta Krishna Swami: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Srila Prabhupada: So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, (but) sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire. Surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina Purandara: And no love.

Srila Prabhupada: That is force . . . In Bengali it is said, "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? "You love me, otherwise I will kill you!" Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver--"You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. . . Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina Purandara prabhu: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krishna, we suffer.

Srila Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: So, what is the choice?

Srila Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, "You surrender to Me." Uou surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest: Srila Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail, instead of the attitude . . .

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government's desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina Purandara prabhu: We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Hmmm, enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. Excerpt from an Evening Darsana on July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the shaktyavesh-avatar of bhakti-shakti and the current or most recent Sampradaya Acharya in our line of the parampara, is answering the origination question . He is making a very self-evident, forceful presentation:

“So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.”

“ . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.”

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being, which is the lower self of ones individuality and personality.

This artificial dreaming conscious state is then radiated, televised and projected by the living entity as their dream intensifies by desiring to experience existence on their own terms, governed by desires centred around the secondary self that has completely forgotten the perpetual nitya siddha Krsna conscious bodily form they really are eternally.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna. In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being. which is the lower self of radiated by the living entity when they forget their perpetual nitya siddha Krishna conscious bodily form.

Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future. So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be seeing Krishna in one of the many devotional lilas however, there are some who choose to forget Krishna, his Kingdom, as well as the bodily identity one has there and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have an Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha" (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entities secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the mahat-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or ones perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form known as nitya-siddha, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state called the nitya-baddha

The nitya siddha body is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a dreaming bodiless state that enters the mahat tattva and is given form according to desires of self interest.

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as ones perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in the universal creation where souls drop from, but rather it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Tatastha

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external, and marginal.

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha is another name for jiva tattva, marginal living entity, or jiva soul that also incorporates the jiva souls ability to choice the land or Goloka and the mahat-tattva or the ocean. The marginal living entity is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva executing and projecting its free will to ignore Krsna and chase their own plans of existence in the maha-tattva.

When the baddha-jiva becomes frustrated with the mahat-tattva, and still denies their eternal existence with Krsna as nitya-siddha, he enters into a dormant inactive state of his own dreaming consciousness that is known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This state of dormant consciousness is ONLY achieved after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. ". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974”

this is even difficult to understand without realization. Even my local Temple president says now is the present but actually there is no present in the material world, it's always the past, what you reading is always in the past. Wow, the Goloka realm of the eternal present tiime of love and devotion is inconceivable while we are trapped in this material body and mind.

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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by Ananta Sesa

But why do then Srila Prabhupada say in his books that there is past, present and future here in the material world?

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The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point Gauragopala dasa is trying to make

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called presentof the material world.

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present is now the past.

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.22

"The mind, bound to the reactions of fruitive work, always meditates on the objects of the senses, both those that are seen in this world and those that are heard about from Vedic authority. Consequently, the mind appears to come into being and to suffer annihilation along with its objects of perception, and thus its ability to distinguish past and future is lost".

Notice the missing of the word present. The purport does not explain this

Suchandra's explanation is also correct. There is present but it is instantly the past in the material world.

Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur explains futher

Paramahamsa babaji - "The three divisions of time are: 1. past, 2. present and 3. future. These divisions refer to material time, time within the realm of the illusory potency maya. In the spiritual world the present exists eternally.

In the spiritual world the past and future do not exist.

Lord Krsna and the individual spirit soul exist in that eternal present. In this way the individual soul is eternal and his original nature, which is his pure love for Lord Krsna, is also eternal.

Talk of the individual soul's being 'created' or 'fashioned' is a misconception, mistakenly imposing the time patterns of the inanimate material world on a spiritual entity.

The atomic individual soul is spiritual and eternal. He existed before his entrance into the material world. Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present.

Therefore the soul and its nature are both eternal. They exist in that eternal present.

I am only describing this in words. Your understanding will depend on your ability to understand the pure spiritual world. I can only give a hint here.

In spiritual trance you will be able to see all this directly. The logic and argument of this material world will not help you to understand it. Your ability to directly perceive the spiritual world beyond the realm of matter will depend on how much you can loosen the shackles of material bondage.

In the beginning you will see your own pure spiritual form. By again and again chanting the spiritual and holy names of Lord Hari, you will come to understand the nature of the soul.

By practicing astanga-yoga or following the path of the impersonalists you will not be able to see the pure spiritual nature. By directly serving Lord Krsna you will be able to understand the eternal nature of the soul.

Therefore you should chant the holy names of Lord Hari always and with enthusiasm. Only by chanting the names of Lord Hari will you make advancement in spiritual life". From Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Jaiva-dharma Chapter Two The Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting

What is the nature of material time?

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past

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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by suchandra

past, present and future is only transcendental activity.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Which means there is no past or future in Vaikuntha because that transcendental service is eternally present. This is a paradox to our materially conditioned mind

Quote:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called present of the material world.

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present, is now the past.

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

What is the nature of material time?

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past.

Hare Krishna

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Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur "Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present". Jaiva-dharma

That eternal present does not exist in the material world because what ever we experience at present immediately becomes the past therefore, technically, on one hand, there is no present in the material world. Whatever act we perform now is immediately a past event. However, theoretically on the other hand, for us to perform self-centred actions, be it good or bad, there is that flickering passing moment of the present. Hence on this platform in the Jaiva-dharma, material time is explained as past present and future

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

No–one falls from Goloka, we only 'think' and 'dream' we fall

There is always free will, that’s up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime

For real love to exist, there must be that choice to be with Krishna or with ones own self centred desires of grandeur. That ability to choose must be there otherwise the gopis and all the other inhabitants of Goloka and Vaikuntha are robots, androids or the Borg (assimilated into the Kingdom of God)

There must be freewill to express love, that means choices

if you count in the 'eternal present' of Goloka that has no past or future, meaning everything and every 'body' is already there, the full eternal position and potential of our tatastha or marginal position is ALWAYS in Goloka.

So if our full potential is already there in Goloka due to the infallible state of the ‘eternal present’, isn't it obvious it is from there we originate even though it is said we are from the position of tatastha. (Simple meaning to choose between the ocean and the land or Krishna and the mahat-tattva)

Do you understand what I am trying to say mataji?

Tatastha is not a place or realm within the universe, it is the natural state of the jiva, ultimately meaning 'having the ability to choose this side or that side, to stay in Goloka or enter the mahat tattva.

We are both correct but are seeing this from different perspectives.

In other words, because of the simultaneous one a different aspect of Lord Caitanya’s teachings, we are always in Goloka (because of the eternal present) and tatastha-sakti simultaneously.

Srila Prabhupada never gave that much emphasis on the word tatastha in his books and preferred to use the word marginal more often in his books, e.g the marginal living entity

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

It is intense love due to separation. Therefore it is very common in this circumstance that one or even many of the gopis may pretend to be Krishna in order to remember Him and ease the pangs of separation for other gopis as well.

This kind of love felt in separation is the highest love because it is love expressed due to dominant missed association as Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion teaches.

The dreaded selfish sub-conscious fall down from Goloka, where the living entity is actually not only imitating Krishna but trying to be Krishna, IS due to envy.

How can this happen even in Goloka?

The answer is free will and the ability is choose. Without that choice, we would be mindless androids or slaves.

Choice allows us to FOREVER increase our love for Krishna in our unique individual way that makes us the marginal living entity we eternally are. Or if we choose, we can forget Krishna and the body we serve Krishna as and ‘do our own thing’ in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down, even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka selfishly and not out of love as the gopis do. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choice to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna and his dear pure devotees.

Therefore it is our selfish sub-conscious desires that make us unfit to remain aware of Goloka that expel us, that expel our awareness of who we really are from Goloka and the memory of our perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body .(who we really are eternally) becomes forgotten due to being lost in our mistaken dreams and thoughts

So only the awareness of who we are is expelled from Goloka and NOT our Spiritual svarupa body.

Therefore always remember that our vigraha, svarupa or nitya-siddha spiritual body can never fall down from Goloka, only our mistaken dreams, thoughts and desires do and take us (our awareness of reality) to the material creation where we can have a shot at being god.

This sub-conscious state of restricted awareness is known as the nitya-baddha-jiva or baddha-jiva that refers to the living entities inferior self or secondary self which is a sub-conscious extension of their full eternal bodily identity and potential in Goloka.

What is explained above is the correct understanding of the origin of the ‘jiva soul’ that is really understood by Krishna’s mercy and never by jnan (knowledge) on its own

Srila Prabhupada - ‘When the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. <u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: Fall down?<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - ‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here".

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully". (Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - ‘Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54,purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned (baddha-jiva), there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

The Spiritual Sky or its other words 'the Brahmajyoti' or the Brahman, is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets and eternally embodied nitya-siddhas (which is ALL of us)

However, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu, Who provides a 'mahat tattva' or material body to all nitya-baddha-jivas that enter His temporary material creation after they have sub-consciously extended, projected and withdrawn themselves from their their nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Only within the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (impersonal Brahman) exist.

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

One can only enter it as a bodiless conscious spark that ORIGINATES from Goloka-Vrndavana. This secondary sub-conscious state (nitya-baddha) is projected and originates from ones real bodily form (nitya-siddha) in Goloka.

So it is very clear here that all living entities originate from Goloka.

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva and the formless spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact there is a Goloka, which is the origin of ALL living entities and their beginingless and endless nitya-siddha body

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated”

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA.

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971