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Svarupa

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Posts posted by Svarupa


  1.  

    I cannot agree with you here because it is important to find a genuin Guru and take initiation eventually. One can follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but they cannot become his direct disciple, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. We must seek out a bonafide representative of him to enter into the Parampara line of succession. Such devotees do exist but are very rare. I do understand this fact at least. It depends on our sincerity. If we are genuinly honest and serious, then a bonafide guru will find us.

     

    True. And Guruvani has made a reasonable point also, once burnt twice shy as the saying goes however, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

     

    One does not have to be a pure devotee at birth to eventually become a great Vaisnava Guru in Lord Chaitanya's Movement. Devotees like Hari Sauri prabhu are very inspiring. The lesson is, one must test their guru and not blindly follow out of fear as what happen with many devotees in the 80s and 90s. If one allows themelves to be cheated then their naviety and spiritual immaturity is also to blame for following an unqualified Swami or Guru in the first place.

     

    There were so many bogus gurus and sects around in the 60s and 70s but devotees came to Prabhupada. The test today is also there except one must see if their choice of guru in Vaisnavism is the 'real deal'. It takes two to tango as is said. The guru must be qualified and so must the disciple who chooses that guru.

     

     


  2.  

    We see then that within two months Śrīla Prabhupāda started to initiate devotees. There is a whole process to initiation. In the beginning Śrīla Prabhupāda was doing it all by himself:

     

     

    he was picking the candidates, approving them;

    he was giving them their new spiritual names,

    he was chanting the first round on their beads,

    he was doing the fire yajna.

     

     

    In this way he began to guide them into the science of chanting. And then after a few more months then he started to give brahṁana initiation. Again chanting, but the gayatri mantra this time, with Prabhupāda sitting personally with the candidate and speaking the mantra into their ear, and giving them their Brahmana thread.

     

    In this way Prabhupāda began the process, the sadhana of chanting. Casual chanting was also going on, but it was in this very specific science of sadhana bhakti that Śrīla Prabhupāda was interested in getting people committed to.

     

    So then what happened? Krishna consciousness started to expand. By early 1968 there were five temples in N. America and there were about 50-60 initiated devotees. Then from 1968–1971, four years, at the end of 1971 there were nearly 60 temples, and there were about 600 initiated devotees. Kṛṣṇa consciousness had spread from America to Europe; Śrīla Prabhupāda went to Africa; he went back to India with a large group of devotees; Australia and Japan started up etc… Krishna consciousness suddenly exploded. It increased ten times its size in four years. And then from 1971–1977 the number of disciples increased from 600 to over 5,000, and the number of temples went from 60 to 108. .]

     

    Those pioneering days where very special and lets face it, those who got initiated by Srila Prabhupada were very fortunate regarless of the sins. I remember when Srila Prabhupada left this world one devotee (Subhabati dasa) said to one God brother ' Well, at least we made it, we got intiated by Prabhupada'

     

     

    It would only be 30 years later the significance of what he said made sense to me. So many came after Prabhupada had left this world only to take intaiation off his disciples who the 'new devotees in the late 70s and 80s ' treated as if they were Prabhupada. That was not to be so and many devotees were bewildered by the fall down of their guru who they treated as Prabhupada, some even committed sucide. Who's fault is it? Why did Subhabati prabhu and his godbrothers get the 'real deal, the genuin item' while those after Prabhupada's disappearance mostly got the 'raw deal and only clever imitators? Was it Karma? was it <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comaudarya<st1:place>Krishnas</st1:place> mercy? Apparently we all get what we deserve, is this why some got Prabhupada and others got madmen like Jayatirtha and others who fell away like Bhavananda, Ramisvara, Bhagavan etc?

     

     

    Of course some were ‘destined’ to get Hirdayananda Swami or Jayapartarka Swami who never fell down and not get cheated. Is it our karma or spiritual sincerity and alertness that sends us to the genuine Guru, while those who are not genuine, alert and qualified to be a disciple, go to the imitators and pretenders who put on a good charismic show? It's a difficult one to understand, or is it? If you want a real diamond, you first must have some Knowledge of what a diamond is so you do not get cheated. If thats the case, then those who followed the charisma of Bhavananda and others instead of 'spiritual qualities', deserved to be cheated because they did not see behind the fascade of immiatation - Any comments?

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    Maybe Sabo’s prophetic words in 1977 was right We made it! At least we got initiated by Srila Prabhupada.


  3.  

     

    B2BT715_b.jpg?t=1187458984

     

     

     

     

     

    The World Goes Back to Godhead

     

     

     

    by Madhava Smullen, Friends of the BBT Newsletter

     

     

    Posted August 6, 2007

     

     

    Back to Godhead magazine was Srila Prabhupada's first step towards fulfilling his Guru's order to preach Krishna consciousness in English. Now, years later, his disciples have taken his beloved magazine and brought it beyond the English-speaking market, just as he did with his books and teachings. With last year's Vyasa Puja book reporting over 90,000 copies printed in Europe and 600,000 in India, it's been a slow but sure success.

     

    India

    BTG has been published in many Indian languages, including Marathi, Hindi, Bengali, and Gujarati since the early seventies. But when former editor Jayadvaita Swami established offices in Mumbai in the early nineteen-nineties, he took things to the next level. "The offices bustle with energy," says Murari Gupta, writer at Bhagwad Darshan, BTG's Hindi branch, "And our staff are varied and dedicated."

     

    It's an understatement. Try Shyamananda Dasa, editor of the English edition, who also translates Prabhupada's books into Marathi and fulfills temple president duties. Or Vamsi Vihari Dasa, who triples as proofreader, translator and writer, while moonlighting as pujari and flower decorator.

    But Marathi edition Jao Devacha Gao, or "Go back to the abode of God," has possibly the most colorful staff in its sole member Vrindavan Kishor Dasa, translator, writer, and yes, national gold medalist gymnast.

     

    BTG's Indian editions only have 32 pages compared to the US edition's 63. But audiences receive twice as many issues, and respond with enthusiasm.

    "We set up a BTG stall at Nasik Kumbha Mela in 2005," Murari Gupta says. "Unfortunately, people were more interested in a loin clothed yogi doing complex yoga right beside us. But when we announced over our PA system that Bhakti yoga was the highest and could instill love of Godhead, the yogi himself took a copy, put it on a stand in front of him, and continued doing his performance.

     

    Immediately, people started buying BTG, and by the end of the day we had distributed 10,000 copies. Through- out the whole event, we distributed 50,000 copies."

     

    Italy

    While Bhagwad Darshan was rising in India, Meditarranean BBT Trustee Madhusevita Dasa was launching Ritorno a Krishna, or "Back to Krishna" in Italy. Since few people in the country could speak English, he, along with current editor Nimai Pandita Dasa, saw a need and decided to fill it. The 48 page magazine mainly reproduces articles from the North American edition, but the staff's determination pushed them to continue even when that magazine ceased publication between 1991 and 1994.

     

    "We were the only BTG in print in the world then," Nimai Pandita beams proudly. "Ritorno a Krishna has been published for almost twenty years without interruption, and we intend it to stay that way for much longer."

    The bi-monthly magazine now sells 2,000 copies per issue, and remains a beacon of Krishna consciousness in Europe.

     

    Hungary

    A local Hare Krishna magazine was always at the center of preaching in Hungary. But when Manorama Dasa took over as editor, he wanted to integrate it with the BBT and named the magazine Vissza Istenhez - Hungarian for "Back to Godhead."

     

    In an attempt to refresh BTG and make it more relevant, Manorama employed a professional graphic designer, had a local artist repaint the original logo, and created themed topical issues. These proved very popular, allowing readers to learn about a subject in depth and from many different angles.

     

    BTG Hungary's content is also completely original, borrowing little or nothing from the North American edition. Instead, it features articles from local devotees, and aims them at an external audience.

     

    "They're mainly introductory, for people interested in spirituality but with no deep Vedic knowledge," says Manorama. "We hope that our magazine will inspire them to read Srila Prabhupada's books, where they can deepen their knowledge."

     

    The magazine is also very popular with devotees because it can teach them how to present a topic, and is a valuable preaching tool. Which leads to yet another unique quality of BTG Hungary - most, if not all, of the copies printed are distributed on the street. And that's impressive; considering that they print 10 to 20,000 copies per issue, and 60-80,000 copies per year.

     

    This success is largely due to national management's treating BTG as a fully integrated part of ISKCON Hungary, rather than an isolated department. This year, local leaders introduced a new level of ISKCON membership that co-ordinates all preaching efforts and includes BTG subscriptions for every member.

     

    Manorama believes that this kind of cooperation is the key to success. "Every BTG edition is successful in its own way," he acknowledges. "But imagine what would happen if all our resources were combined and coordinated?"

     

    Distribute Back to Godhead, people cannot be cheated if they sincerely and intelligently read Srila Prabhupadas books and his Back to Godhead magazine. Realist your name isn't Virabhadra is it? :D Get over it mate, all things will pass, no one in these biological bodies can remain here forever, therefore no lie can live forever.

     

    <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>

    imaghjkle003.jpg?t=1187460927

     

     

     

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    </B>Krishna sorts everything out eventually if you are sincere. These bodies are not who we really are. Even though we hear that every day, still we identify with these biological bodies. If we can scriptually understand this, then no-one can hurt us. Hare Krishna.


  4.  

    "The movement is more mature now and the endeavour would be more rewarding than those early days of naivety and ignorance yet innocently full of enthusiasm."

     

     

    I would say the movement is older now in some ways less mature, it seems to me many are happy to lock themselves away and forget about spreading the movement. There is something to be said of naieve enthusiasm I still remember the roaming mobs in Berkely and their happiness which is what first introduced me to Krishna.

     

    What people fail to realize is the interest is there, I buy alot of old books at this huge used bookstore near my house and last week when I went in there were 3 or 4 Bhagavad Gitas there and several other BBT titles, when I was there just 2 days ago ALL of the Bhagavad Gitas were gone along with one or 2 of the other BBT titles.

     

    I think I may take your idea and buy a bunch and see what places I can get to offer them :D

     

    Give me a book, I also want to be happy!

     

    Srila Prabhupada transcendental book distribution Ki Jaya!

     

    What is a effect or a realization of the distribution of Srila Prabhupada’s books?

     

    One answer comes in the Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.11:

    tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavo yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api namany anantasya yaso ‘nkitani yat srnvanti gayanti grnanti sadhavah

    ‘On the other hand, that literature which is full with descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant to bring about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though irregularly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.’

     

    Srila Prabhupada told the prophecy that his books will be the laws books for the next 10,000 years. The inspiration to continue to have enthusiasm comes from gurus or spiritual masters,sadhus or saintly persons and sastras or revealed scriptures. This verse quoted from S.Bhag. is a source of inspiration to continue along with Srila Prabhupada’s transcendental book distribution y to maintain fresh our ideal. Without ideals,life doesn’t make sense. Our ideal is clear: Srila Prabhupada’s books are meant to bring about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization of this world. With this ideal we go out voluntarily to distribute Srila Prabhupada’s books.Srila Prabhupada’s founded Bhaktivedanta Book Trust reported that they have been distributed over 500 million books in 45 languages.

     

    This will not go without being noticed,this has an effect or reaction in human society! Thanks to Srila Prabhupada’s book distribution, concepts like karma,reencarnation,vegetarianism,etc.,are used in the communication media,TV,radio,cinema,newspapers,and among the people in general. Srila Prabhupada’s transcendental book distribution is auspicious in all respect. Srila Rupa Goswami gave a definition of auspicious. He said that something really auspicious is that witch is for the welfare of all the world.(Nectar of Devotion,Cap 1).There is no doubt that the one who distributes Srila Prabhupada’s books,the one who gives a donation for the book and the ones who see the devotee distributing,all get benefited spiritually. Related to the last case,I have an experience I would like to share with all of you. It was in Srila Prabhupada’s centennial Christmas marathon.

     

    A very smart elder man approached me with a 20$ note saying: ‘ Please,I want one of these books.’ Usually nobody comes with 20$ in hand to ask for a book, it was outlandish .I asked him, ‘Why you want a book?’…. He said that he was living in an apartment just opposite the spot where we was distributing books and that the used to spend the day looking at us. He said ‘I came to the conclusion that you are happy, and transmit that happiness to others and that’s why people purchase your books’. He concluded saying, ‘So, please give me a book,I also want to be happy.’ Hearing this my hairs stood on end and I told him: ‘ Thanks for your appreciation,may God bless you.’ The conclusion is that, who sings and accepts Srila Prabhupada’s books? ; as the S.Bhag verse says, ‘the purified men who are thoroughly honest.’

     

    Om Tat Sat. Haripada dasa

     

    SPs-books.jpg?t=1187204555KX7.jpg?t=1187204853


  5.  

    I remember on June 14th 1983 the Australian Yatra put a Hare Krishna magazine in every major paper. Every person, young and old new about the Krishna’s in those days regardless of our immaturity and naive pioneering spirit. I have been researching 'again' about stands and have got permission to put those stands in front of some shops at Malls.

    Most young people today, in Australia at least, have not even seen a BTG Magazine. If we follow up on this we could see BTG become 'known by the public' again like it was in the 70s and 80s.

    The movement is more mature now and the endeavour would be more rewarding than those early days of naivety and ignorance yet innocently full of enthusiasm.

    Also I have noticed there are hardly any books in Libraries except for Universities. There needs to be an enormous push to again distribute books. I’ve been looking for Prabhupada’s books in Melbourne and except for his Gita, they do not exist in most Libraries

    There needs to be an enormous push to again distribute books

    to ordinary person and school students on the street.

     

     

    These are good stands that are cheap to make, yes it would be great to see Back to Godhead magazine in all Shopping Malls

     

    mag1.jpg?t=11871945193364901680.jpg?t=1187194632LELD0069.jpg?t=1187194589


  6.  

    Too fallen is when you do one of the following (I'm sure there are more)-

     

    1. Kill a brahmana

    2. Eat cows flesh

    3. Have sex with another man's wife.

     

     

    Actually you have just described the qualities of KALI-YUGA, if Lord Caitanya can save all the above, then wouldn't that prove He is truly the deliver of the most fallen?

     

    I believe no-one is too fallen because ultimately everyone is a devotee. Only a fool would say (as one so called sanyasi said recently in a class in Melbourne) "one can never attain the causeless mercy of LORD CAITANYA because they are too fallen because of exploitation" To the contrary, such fallen sruggling devotees are qualified for Lord Caitanya's mercy more than what you can ever imagine.

     

    Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?


  7.  

    Yes, I don't think any of the leaders were victims. They all willfully misused their positions and subsequently destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. But if they are sincerely sorry for what they did they could be forgiven by the devotees.

     

    I wouldn't go as far as saying destroyed, it was the very beginning, the very early stages and the strenth of ISKCON is that it has survived the pioneering years. The ultimate measure of a movement is not where it stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. This means being compassionate to the fallen, no matter what they have done in the past, who are humble enough to simply come back home, back to ISKCON

     

    Maybe there should be an amnesty one day soon where the 'proud' sanyasi's and GBC take a humble position and invite everyone back.


  8.  

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only Krishna's love can do that.The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

     

     

     

     

     

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.

     

     

    I like these quotes

     

    It's ashame we convinced ourselves we were so knowlegable, advanced and 'pure' in the late 70s and 80s when in fact our leadership was almost spiritually blind, therefore they MUST share responsiblity for eveything and everyone in ISKCON without excuses. Only then can one, including sanyasi's during that time, make genuin progress in their spiritual life.


  9.  

    I don't know sanskrit but even the english translations have many verses that could be taken as indicating mayavada philosophy if one was inclined to hear in that way.

     

    But Bhaktivedanta means from everywhere in vedanta he extracts only bhakti. Even in the Brahman effulgence filled with slumbering living beings we can sense bhakti lying dormant in the hearts of all the individuals there.

     

    So we have become very fortunate indeed to be attracted to hearing from such a Bhaktivedanta. His vision pierces the ever present Brahmajyoti which is blinding to the majority, and his focus is stayed on Radha Krsna.

     

    Very poetically written, very inspiring


  10.  

     

    The Impersonal Idea of the Origin of the Soul

    (Taken from Sridhar Maharaja's book, Search for Krishna)

     

    "There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets for the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

    "The Brahmajyoti, the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

     

    "Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication... The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti, and not from Vaikuntha.

     

    "In the brahmajyoti, we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will, no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will, some jivas have taken their chance in the material world.

     

    They refused to submit to the supreme authority. They wanted to dominate. So with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation... Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha...

     

    "The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world."

     

    But Srila Prabhupada says originally we were all with Krishna in Goloka and rejects the idea the living entity originated from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti:

     

    "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

     

    “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, page 323.

     

    “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”.

     

    “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state, we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality that exists in a temporary state in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, Brahmajyoti or creation”.

     

    "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration-therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

     

    This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna." (Lecture in Australia)

     

    "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

     

    "Real sense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our real, spiritual form, free from all material contamination, pure enjoyment of the senses is possible." (Sri Isopanisad, 11)

     

    "This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to natural inclination. Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord.

     

    "Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally the servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally." (SB3.9.11)

     

    In an attempt to minimize or nullify all of the above truths, our impersonalistic adversaries are fond of quoting part of one purport from Srila Prabhupada's commentary on Sri Isopanisad. It reads as follows:

     

    "The all-pervading feature of the Lord-which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-shakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as the Brahman. (Sri Isopanisad 16)

     

    “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83


  11.  

     

    The marginal living entity can be both nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha however originally every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha

     

     

    Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

     

    Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

    Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

     

    Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

    Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

     

    Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down. That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected.

     

    “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

     

    Srila Prabhupada – “If one understands Krsna, then all the departments of knowledge are part and parcel of that understanding. Krsna is transcendental, for He is always situated in His eternal internal potency. The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated. Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible”. Bhagavad gita as it is Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation

     

    "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.

    Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

    Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles

     

    "This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.

     

    Srila Prabhupada - "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977


  12. Srila Prabhupada explains on the cover of the 1966 Hare Krishna record album-

     

    "This transcendental vibration--by chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare--is the sublime method for reviving our Krsna consciousness. As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our asociation with matter since time immemorial, our consciousness is now poluted by material atmosphere. In this polluted concept of life, we are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in our complexities. This illusion is called maya, or hard struggle for existence over the stringent laws of material nature. This illusory struggle against the material nature can at once be stopped by revival of our Krsna consciousness.

     

    Krsna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind. This consciousness is the original energy of the living entity. When we hear the transcendental vibration, this consciousness is revived. And the process is recommended by authorities for this age. By practical experience also, we can perceive that by chanting this maha-mantra, or the Great Chanting for Deliverance, one can at once feel transcendental ecstasy from the spiritual stratum. When one is factually on the plane of spiritual understanding, surpassing the stages of sense, mind and intelligence, one is situated on the transcendental plane. This chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is directly enacted from the spiritual platform, surpassing all lower states of consciousness--namely sensual, mental and intellectual. There is no need of understanding the language of the mantra, nor is there any need of mental speculation nor any intellectual adjustment for chanting this maha-mantra. It springs automatically from the spiritual platform, and as such, anyone can take part in this transcendental sound vibration, without any previous qualification, and dance in ecstasy.

     

    We have seen it practically. Even a child can take part in the chanting, or even a dog can take part in it. The chanting should be hears, however, from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that immediate effect can be achieved. As far as possible, chanting from the lips of a nondevotee should be avoided, as much as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect.

     

    The word Hara is a form of addressing the energy of the Lord. Both Krsna and Rama are forms of addressing directly the Lord, and they mena " the highest pleasure, eternal." Hara is the supreme pleasure potency of the Lord. This potency, when addressed are Hare, helps us in reaching the Supreme Lord.

     

    The material energy, called as maya, is also one of the multipotencies of the Lord, as much as we are also marginal potency of the Lord. The living entities are described as superior energy than matter. When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Hara,it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity.

    The three words, namely Hara, Krsna and Rama, are transcendental seeds of the maha-mantra, and the chanting is a spiritual call for the Lord and His internal energy, Hara, for giving protection to the conditioned soul. The chanting is exactly like a genuine cry by the chold for the mother. Mother Hara helps in achieving the grace of the supreme father, Hari, or Krsna, and the Lord reveals Himself to such a sincere devotee.

    No other means, therefore, of spiritual realization is as effective in this age, as chanting the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare".

    His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada


  13. Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krishnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

    <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p>Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . . However generally once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha. Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, February 18, 1967</u1:p>

    <u1:p>Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."</u1:p>

    <u1:p>Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.</u1:p>

    <u1:p>Acyutananda: He can return.</u1:p>

    <u1:p>Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapura</u1:p>

    <u1:p></u1:p>

    <u1:p>Srila Prabhupada then cites the verse from Prema-Vivarta explaining the cause of the living beings original sub-conscious fall to the material world:</u1:p>

    <u1:p></u1:p>

    <u1:p>Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?</u1:p>

    <u1:p>Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-Vivarta:</u1:p>

     

    <u1:p>\</u1:p>

    <u1:p>krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare</u1:p>

    <u1:p>nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare</u1:p>

     

    <u1:p>

    “As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krishna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krishna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krishna—so Krishna has got full independence, but we are minute. Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krishna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 Hyderabad, April 11, </u1:p>


  14.  

     

    In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971, Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted Tokyo lecture. "No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else".

     

     

    I notice you can't get your head around a lot of what Srila Prabhupada says. Everything I have posted is clearly backed up by what Srila Prabhupada has told us but only our degree of service to Srila Prabhupada will reveal that to us.

     

    Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

    Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

    Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

    Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

    Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

    Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down. That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected.

    “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

    Srila Prabhupada – “If one understands Krsna, then all the departments of knowledge are part and parcel of that understanding. Krsna is transcendental, for He is always situated in His eternal internal potency. The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated. Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible”. Bhagavad gita as it is Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation

    "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.

    Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

    Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles

    "This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.

    Srila Prabhupada - "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

     

    In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971, Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted Tokyo lecture. "No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else".

     

    In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krsna’s position, Krsna puts us into a dreaming state. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is sometimes characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen.

     

    We are simply in a dreaming state. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it. This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purport to the text under consideration. Therein he says: “Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord.” It is clear that the living entity is first situated in “his actual life.” In that life he is properly using his free will. Then comes “the first sinful will of the living entity.” This is to “become the Lord.” At that point the Lord arranges things so that “the living entity forgets his actual life.” There is no support here for the idea that our original position is as eternally fallen beings in the brahmajyoti, the Viraja River, or the material world. Neither is there any hint that our original position in the spiritual world is any different from our position after going back to Godhead. We were originally with Krsna, but we have forgotten that.

     

    In that state of forgetfulness we think we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up, and we will be in our original position


  15. Fair point however there are 5 devotees using this computer but i will make sure they use their own computers in future. My large writing was inspired bt Gurvani's colourful display Others have used this computer on a few occssions and Bhakta dasa is certainly not a fan of big writing anyway.

    Anyway this ip address is me Svarupa and no-ne else will use it to to defeat those who believe we come from the Brahmajyoti and never originated from Goloka.

     

    Hare Krishna!


  16.  

    I get it now, your right GURUVANI, actually a devotee (NO BODY) never falls down from Vaikuntha, one only 'thinks' they do. It is that 'thought' that puts ones awareness (not their svarupa body) in the material world.

     

     

    Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve LORD KRISHNA OR REJECT KRISHNA, that choice is eternally there even in GOLOKA.

     

     

    The nitya-siddha devotee’s are fully aware of the dark cloud in Spiritual Sky called the mahat-tattva that is real, but only a temporary manifestation and place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) go to be embodied and pursued.

     

    The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

     

    Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

     

    Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees who are eternally with Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha's, to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

     

    Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka -Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down

     

    perfectly said


  17. Karandhara [reads purport]: The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy—by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord.”

    Prabhupada: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, “Why Krsna within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...?” Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krsna, so Krsna is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.” That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krsna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krsna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So Krsna is... Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility.

    Karandhara [continues reading purport]: “The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him.”

    Prabhupada: Yes.

    Karandhara: “As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine’ and this is ‘I.’ The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I’ or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.’ Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine’ persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.”. . .

     

    Trivikrama: Srila Prabhupada? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read ...

    Prabhupada: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, “Oh, tiger is there.” It is simply dreaming condition.

    Trivikrama: But so many Vaisnavas are praying...

    Prabhupada: So as soon as you understand that “This is not... I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .

    Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

    Prabhupada: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of maya. You see?

     

    In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krsna’s position, Krsna puts us into a dreaming state. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is sometimes characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen.

     

    We are simply in a dreaming state. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it. This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purport to the text under consideration. Therein he says: “Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord.” It is clear that the living entity is first situated in “his actual life.” In that life he is properly using his free will. Then comes “the first sinful will of the living entity.” This is to “become the Lord.” At that point the Lord arranges things so that “the living entity forgets his actual life.” There is no support here for the idea that our original position is as eternally fallen beings in the brahmajyoti, the Viraja River, or the material world. Neither is there any hint that our original position in the spiritual world is any different from our position after going back to Godhead. We were originally with Krsna, but we have forgotten that.

     

    In that state of forgetfulness we think we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up, and we will be in our original position.

     

    The dream situation and our dream identity will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha. Srila Prabhupada started his lecture by directly referring to the question of how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna. He gives a thorough answer to this question. We should follow in his footsteps by giving the same answer. Others may try to put together an alternative view, by taking isolated statements from here and there and putting them together in inventive ways, but this cannot compare to the kind of systematic, comprehensive, self-contained statements made here by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the specific questions confronting us.

     

     

     

    “So actually we are always in the spiritual world”

     

     

    In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971, Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted Tokyo lecture. No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else.

     

     

    Kulasekhara: Could you explain a little bit about the position in which we were situated in the spiritual sky before coming to the material world?

    Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

    Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krsna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called maya. When you forget Krsna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krsna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha.

    Devotees: Haribol!

    Prabhupada: Because here everyone is Krsna conscious. They haven’t forgotten Krsna. Therefore they are in Vaikuntha. Others may see that “Oh, you are in London. How you are in Vaikuntha?” Just like Krsna, in the Bhagavad-gita is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati. God is situated in everyone’s heart. So everyone’s heart means He is in the heart of the hog also. But if the hog is within the stool that does not mean Krsna is also within the stool. Similarly, the devotees although they are in London or New York, they’re in Vaikuntha. That is to be realized when one is in Krsna consciousness. Yatra tisthanti mad bhakta tatra tisthami narada. Krsna says, “I live there where My devotees are there.” So Krsna can be everywhere where there is devotee. So this material world, spiritual world means when you forget Krsna, that is material. When you are Krsna conscious, that is spiritual. That’s all. You may remain in the same place. Because everything is Krsna’s—isavasyam idam sarvam—so how you can distinguish what is material, what is spiritual? If every, every part of the creation belongs to Krsna, you cannot practically distinguish “This portion is spiritual, this portion is material.” That distinction is due to our forgetfulness. So as soon as you come to Krsna consciousness you will find everything spiritual.

    Guest (5): If one realizes the impersonal Brahman, what progress can be made here from this?(?)

    Prabhupada: So if you realize impersonal Brahman, there is chance of falling down again to the material conception. Because you are person, you cannot remain in impersonal stage. Therefore to elevate, to be elevated in the impersonal stage means there is chance of falling down again. But if you elevate yourself to the personal conception of the Absolute Truth, there is no falldown. Of course, because we are marginal potency of Krsna, there is possibility of falldown always. But those who are strong in Krsna consciousness, they do not fall. That’s all right


  18. In the famous crow and tal fruit message which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

     

    1. We were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport.

    2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

    3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

    4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja River.

    5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with Krsna in the spiritual world.

     

     

     

    On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer , we were originally with Krsna. And no, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the Viraja River. No, our relationship with Krsna was not undeveloped. The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory. To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with Krsna.

     

    It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements. The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority.

     

    The following excerpts from the Tokyo lecture are also quite striking in that they provide a way to resolve the statements by Srila Prabhupada that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” To put it briefly, Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where we think we have fallen. The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

    Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”

    Prabhupada: So, purport?

    Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”

    Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.

     

    So here Srila Prabhupada is himself directly raising one of the specific questions that confront us today. It is clear that he accepts the premise of the question, namely that we actually were with Krsna in the spiritual world. The question is not whether or not we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada is accepting that. The question is why we left Krsna.

     

    Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”

    Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

    Devotees: Yes.

    Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us.

     

    So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation. In our original situation we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up Krsna.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout the lecture, as can be seen from the following excerpts.

     

    Prabhupada: Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity. People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”

     

    . . .

     

    So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with— I am simply Krsna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. “Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly.

     

    . . .

     

    But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, “It was illusion, I was dreaming, I am Krsna’s” — finished. All gone. “I am Krsna’s. I am Krsna’s eternal servant. These are all nonsense”—he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

     

    Notice that Srila Prabhupada is calling this a very important verse, and he is repeating again and again his explanation and also calling it very important for the devotees to understand. He is raising the questions that confront us and answering them point by point. He is also offering a way to understand the statements that “no one falls, They only 'think' or 'dream' they fall.” Statements like these by Srila Prabhupada are addressed directly to the specific questions that confront us. They address these questions in a sustained way. Such direct, detailed, and comprehensive statements are worthy of more emphasis than isolated brief statements pulled from here and there, with no direct sign from Srila Prabhupada that they relate to the exact questions before us. .


  19. Stop speculating, who are you to say what Prabhupada was thinking, why can't guruvani and Devarsirat das accept what Sila Prabhupada says, he was only with us for 11 years in his bodily presents and half those years where the 1960s therefore his letters, tapes and books are all as important as each other.

     

    Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

     

    Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

     

    Please answer me the following questions.

    Where have you heard this idea, that we have never left Goloka?

    Who is teaching you this?

    Is this your own understanding?

     

    ANSWER -

    Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

     

    Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture washington DC Temple 1976

     

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