ggohil

What kind of proof would convince you?

"Oh King, anybody who makes fun out of the devotee of

the Supreme Personality to Godhead, his religiosity,

wealth, fame and family members all reach ruination or

are destroyed."

It is intereting to note that The Lord, all forgiving, all compassionate, all understanding, perfect in every sense, can be so vindictive.

Girish

It is said that certain Mantras possess enormous powers to helping the process of self-realization. Most Mantras are in Sanskrit.

Do the Mantras lose it's powers if translated in other languages?

I think the key lies in what you do in between studying philosophy. If the the remaining time is spent in giving, helping, developing love for all and if you have began to see Lord in everything, then I think you may be heading in the right dierction.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

"ask and He will give"

Yes, I too have heard the lord loves to interact with his devotees.

But why ask anything from someone who is so perfect, for he always gives where it is deserved. Why not accept what little he gives as a direct gift from the beloved and accept with equal affection what he does not give. Any thing less than this, I think, may be an an act of selfishness. I think, if one needs to interact with him, than why not interact with him by giving, accepting and serving him, rather then asking.

Just thinking out loud /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Often I have heard that Devtas have often prayed to the Lord to save either themselves or the Plant from the rule of the tyrants.

Does the Lord, all knowing, need instructions from the outside to intervene?

After all every thing is always under his control at all times since all the destructive or constructive energies are his.

Thanks Gauracandraji, its is nice to be back.

Exactly, what will you do if and when you find Kalki Avtar of the Lord........

I heard this interesting story the other day.

Arriving from the battlefield of Kuruksestra, Arjun asks the Lord Krsna to step down from the Chariot. In response, the Lord beckons Arjun to step down first. However, as a sign of respect Arjun asks again the Lord to step down first. Now, the Lord insisted that Arjun ought to step down first. Arjun did as he was requested. Then the Lord stepped down from the Chariot. As the Lord left the Chariot, it was completely consumed with fire.

The Lord explained, the Chariot was doomed with powerful arrows it had received during the battle. No harm could come to the Chariot or it’s occupant as long as the Lord was in it. As soon as Lord left the Chariot it was no longer in his protection.

Arjun further realized, his safety was only guaranteed at the battlefield as long as he was in Lords protection.

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I have always felt one should be vigilant in what one asks for in prayers. Asking for anything which imposes one’s own will over the will of the Divine, may not be appropriate.

I have always felt one should be vigilant in what one asks for in prayers. Asking for anything which imposes one’s own will over the will of the Divine, may not be appropriate.

This is the way I understand it.

Sri Krsna not only feels the pain but he is the very the source of it. Even though he is the source of all the pain and sufferings, only we through our own actions bring all the suffering onto ourselves.

Since he is the source of “All”, no one better then he understands all the pain and sufferings. The difference is, that we suffer due to our Karmas, while he, whose actions are free from all reactions has no reason to suffer.

So I guess the answer to the question would be, Yes, he does feel the pain, he feels "OUR" pain. Since he understands the essence of pain, he does not suffer from it. He is always “Blissful”

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 12-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 12-18-2001).]

Originally posted by mateo:

i repeat for the nth time that im not here to

argue over rhetoric or semantics nor am i against the kind of religion you profess what

ever i say here just take it or leave it. its

your conscience, my brother, who will do the

rest.

Ok, your statements are taken in the spirit intended.

Following statements are made in the same spirit.

“The material nature, which is one of My energies, is working under My direction, producing all moving and non-moving beings. Under its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.”

BG 9.10

“Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisance to Me and

worship Me. Being completed absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.”

BG 9.34

Originally posted by mateo:

.........If you

have faith in Christ then you shall be

saved.

(edited 11-08-2001).]

Saved from What?

For example:

Without the understanding of the system of Karmas and Incarnation, catastrophe of events like that of September 11, 2001 which destroys hundreds of lives ( including Christians) cannot be explained in terms of being “saved”. Subsequently the most forgiving Supreme and his eternal love for all souls grows vague and becomes impossible to understand.

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 11-15-2001).]

Originally posted by mateo:

..........It is only by faith alone

that one can be saved from sin. If you

have faith in Christ then you shall be

saved.

]

What happens to the souls living in the remote parts of the world who never got the opportunity

to hear about Jesus, will they be saved?

If the Christianity is the only faith that can save the human race, then why does God allow souls

being born in the family that practice faith other then Christianity.

If faith in Chritianity is the only way to the salvation then, what happens to an innocent child

born into a faith other then Christianity, who is, for some reason, to die after few days, will he be

saved?

What happened to the souls who where born before the time of Lord Jesus, were they ever

saved?

Originally posted by shvu:

There is no way of knowing if Jesus magically turned water into wine or if Krishna magically produced a saree of infinite length. That is the idea.

Cheers

Even if there were irrefutable material evidence available of Sri Krsna’s acts, would this place

immovable faith in people, I think not. Irrespective of the evidence the non believers will find a

reason to doubt and this is fine too.

I think, the Supreme in essence is spiritual hence the faith cannot be based on material proofs,otherwise the faith will only be good as the material proof.

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 10-10-2001).]

Originally posted by sin_patas:

my concern is whether Mohammed can accurately be described as a true guru or self-realized master.

[This message has been edited by sin_patas (edited 10-10-2001).]

A good question. However, I think the questions about Mohammad cannot be fairly discussed here, just as “who is Sri Krsna” would not solicit fair debate in the Islamic Forum.

Shvu

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Fine. How does one question Brahman, Karma and creation?

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Just like one would question any thing else.

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I will save my comments for now.

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Fine

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With due respect, I say, you (and most people here) have no idea what vedic literature is.

Let me call your bluff, anyway. What vedic literature have you studied so far? FYI, Iskcon

books, BG, Bhagavatam, etc are not vedic by any stretch of the imagination.

---------------------------

I am studying Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam. These are the books I am referring to and they have started to make sense to me.

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See above. Anyway, why bring in the Vedas here, I wonder ?

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Don’t know what you mean.

Originally posted by shvu:

That's easy.

 

Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there.

 

Hope that was helpful.

 

Good luck !



I do not thing anyone has to accept what one reads in the vedas without questioning it.

Apparently, the vedic literature does not make sense to Shvu, so he has universally proclaimed it, for all mankind, to be beyond questioning, thinking and understanding.

I have asked questions and reasoned with the vedic literature. The literature has started making sense to me.

Secondly, unless Shvu, is sitting in all the devotees hearts, he really does not know whether the devotees have accepted the literature without asking questions or whether the vedas makes sense to the devotees.

A thought.

I guess, we as human beings are granted mystical powers to a certain degree, as to induce a favorable outcome of an event. In other words, when one as an individual or as a collective group prays or desires sincerely for something, then one is likely to influence the odds of event to occur in one’s favor.

Changing the outcome of an event through prayers, may not be confused with an act of God. The out come of all events may occur with God’s permission but he may not necessarily sanction all the events.

In principal the difference lies in that, the act of God is always selfless and is meant for general good, while prayers maybe in essence a spiritual appeal to satisfy one’s selfish desire.

Unfortunately, even one’s prayers, for general good of the people, are normally tainted with some degree of selfish desires.

A prayer may be a wish list based on our desires and perception of the world.

Therefore, one must be careful what one asks in prayers for he or she may be liable for any gains accomplished.

Perhaps that is why just taking Hari's name and accepting his will may be the best bet.

Here a message from a native of Afghasnistan

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the

Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would

mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this

atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What

else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing

whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am

from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've

never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who

will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no

doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in

New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the

government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant

psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political

criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you

think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of

Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not

only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They

were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone

would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of

international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The

answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.

A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000

disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.

There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these

widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the

farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why

the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone

Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.

Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?

Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their

hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from

medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at

least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the

Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away

and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they

don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over

Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the

criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making

common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've

been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with

true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there

with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what

needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill

as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about

killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's

actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some

Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin

Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any

troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let

us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will

other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're

flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he

wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's

all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might

seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam

and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a

holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to

lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably

wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the

war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but

ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary

It is good to see America pull together in times of need and speak against terrorism. It is heartwarming to witness people helping the victims in the true spirit of humanity.

But it is puzzling to note:

Why does it take a heinous act to awaken spirituality in the hearts of people?

Heinous acts against humans are constantly perpetrated all the time throughout the world. Why should this act be considered worse then others?

In the eye of the supreme, a life lost is a life lost, whether it be American or otherwise.

It is curious to note that the perpetrators of terrorism may have prayed to God before executing their mission, believing they are carrying out God’s will. On the other had the victims pray to the same Supreme to grant them the strength to avenge the work of Satin.

Similarly,

In a competition a competitor prays to God for the first place in the name of his country and his family, but in essence all he seeks from God is 2nd and 3rd place for his opponents.

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 09-14-2001).]

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Ram Hare Ram, Ram Ram Hare Hare

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 09-11-2001).]

Just a thought.

Followers of some other religion may consider to chastise people, who do not follow the

principals of particular religion, in a form of Holy War or some other means.

It all appears to get very confusing.

Why can we not spend all the energy in channeling our efforts to discover true love for the Divinity and leave all kinds of chastising to one who really knows and understands everything.