cbrahma

You're blaming the corruption of the sannyasis on Prabhupada? You really are despicable. The brahamanas fell down. For all intents and purposes ISKCON has fallen down. Your point being? In an amazing short time he managed to take dirty drug-addicted hippies and turn them into pujaris who followed the principles and performed deity worship at a high standard. I know because I was there. You continually rationalize the inadequacy of gurus and now you are criticizing the acarya.

Your speculations about Prabhupada's inmost thoughts are inconsequential. Did he say it? Did he do it? He was straightforward. Trying to read ambiguity where it doesn't exist is rascaldom, to use his favorite word.

No doubt you are one of the rationalizing elite, making excuses for the damage so many pseudo-devotees have done to Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada was not tolerant of deviation in his movement. His standards were the highest, especially when it comes to the spiritual master.

Prabhupada would never rationalize the existence of corruption in his movement as the necessity of failure - for success -

These gurus are authorized by the GBC - that is their claim. This is not how gurus should be selected. It isn't a post one applies for and then gets approved. Prabhupada would be furious.

Sounds like a mess and you believe this is Prabhupada's mission to have gurus just cause one is forced?

By corrupt old-timers are you referring to the gurus of these devotees who are 'managing' and supposedly carrying out Prabhupada's mission? Last time I was regularly associating was only a year ago. It didn't look like Prabhupada's mission at all.

Here is a reference from Rocana's site. Rocana certainly seems to know him. Considering this devotee is an independant thinker criticizing the ISKCON's guru policies, his endorsment of the Sampradaya acarya has a lot of credibility, and not just parroting what he read.

When those in charge are rotten, you are optimistic - naive would be a more appropriate word. Those who are in charge, namely the centralized GBC, are steering ISKCON - it's core mission - and its NOT in the direction that Prabhupada intended.

Your speculative hopefulness that Prabhupada can be questioned at every turn is only exceeded by your naivety in believing that the current ISKCON presents Prabhupada's 'core' mission.

I'm not categorically opposed to ritual. But to believe the power is in the ritual is being a magician as opposed to a spiritual practioner.

I already admitted that he flexed according to time and circumstance on some things. But making it all things is just your wishful thinking.

You wish it were just a matter of opinion. There also a lot of traditionalist opinions, but they get touted as gospel. Prabhupada was rarely ambiguous. Read his books, his letters, listen to the tapes, those that haven't been tampered with.

Do you have shastric support for this? This is not a challenge. I'm just interested. Guru is one.

So bob has spoken dismissing the entire Abrahamic tradition. Ok.

I'm not painting you at all. I am bringing out the injustice of the free-wheeling criticism of Prabhupada which has been informally authorized by the present self-deputed Vaisnava culture, mostly traditional, sometimes Gaudiya Math and today even ISKCON.

Not sure what bob dasa's commentary is meant to prove.

Show me some 'real' ones - and I'll think about it.

Well since he doesn't own the reference, that would seriously damage his credibility, don't you think?

Well you are debating. And there is some serious double-think going on here. It seems open season on Prabhupada, but dare question the traditionalists and any of the (huff - puff) little rituals and formalities they boast of and one is called apharadi who doesn't understand Vaisnavism. Prabhupada has been so flexible that many traditionalist don't even consider him to be part of the parampara. But that is not license for the free for all which is present ISKCON , a free-for-all only for the hoi-poloi in management.

I don't have to study the history. I was there. I know the spirit, the intention, the siddhanta that Prabhupada was preaching. There are things that can be adjusted and things that should never be adjusted and he knew the difference. Now everything is up for grabs. The traditional religionists are those that expect rigid adherence to formal diksa and all the rules appertaining. It their way or the highway.

this is very funny. Religionists with their demands on formal membership and the hundred and one dry rules and requirements are not controlling. But with Prabhupada who gave Lord Caitanya's mercy freely, following his direction is control. This is just hilarious.

The use of the term Sampradaya-Acarya is here used in the same way as Rocana dasa used it in the thread that I started on the subject.