Audarya-lila dasa

This is really nonsense. Beggar is quite correct to call you to the mat Murali. Acharya teaches by example. His/her words are in complete concert with his/her actions. Beyond that, it is an axiomatic truth that actions speak louder than words. Where exactly in sastra or in the words of sadhus (in the lineage of Bhaktivinoda Thakur) or the words of Acharyas in our lineage do you find backing for your absurd hypothetical idea? It is not that anything and everything goes. Krsna himself says in the B.G. that whatever a great man does, common men follow. You have absolutely zero backing for your offensive hypothetical and you should think deeply about it and retract it if you have any good sense at all.

Sadhu-sanga will purify those who still have desires for material advancement or for intellectual aquisition. A real sadhu will inspire those who associate with him/her and they will naturally feel their own serving tendency being kindled. It is really quite natural. Jnana and karma are a little useful in the beginning of the bhakti marg, but Rupa Goswami has called them witches - so we should try to be introspective and see our own hearts. If you have strong desires for material advancement or renunciation, Krsna can purify your heart of those desires. One thing I think all people who take up this path should be aware of and that is that it may take quite a bit of time. When we talk about results we are really talking about a change of heart. Nityananda Prabhu is known as maha-bahu (stronged armed), he can defeat all seperate interests in our hearts and clear our consciousness so that it is a good sitting place for Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsna consciousness is not about getting a hard heart by stuffing the head full of information and thereby imagining we have really 'gone somewhere'. This whole process is about softening our hearts, learning to cry for Krsna, seeing our own fallen condition and praying sincerely for bhakti to descend from above. We cannot 'go anywhere' without help from above, and that help comes when we sincerely cry out and realize our own utter helplessness. Gaura Hari Bol - Happy New Year to all - may it bring a newer excitement and commitment to each of us to take up this wonderful path with all sincerity. May we all pray for good company and by Krsna's grace become good company for others as well.

Spritual life is about giving in the beginning, middle and end. It's easy to judge where your at spiritually if your willing to be honest with yourself. Love means sacrifice. Anyone who has experienced genuine love in their life knows that it is born of giving - of self sacrifice. Spiritual life is about love and love is about giving. That's about as simple as it gets. The highest love requires the highest sacrifice - total giving. If you really want to love Krsna then find out what he wants and start giving it to him. Krsna wants our love and affection. Anyone who takes up this path should be clear about what it is all about and what to expect. It is not about enjoying or about avoiding misery - if your interested in either of those things then take up the karma or jnana marga respectively. If you want love then be prepared to give more and more and more. The expectation is if you really want to love Krsna you will ultimately have to give your very self. If you aren't prepared for that then this path isn't right for you. It's said that when Krsna loves someone he takes everything away from that person. Look at Srila Prabhupada's life. Krsna took his business success away from him and his family life became unbearable - this led to his renouncing. Keep your eyes and heart upon the goal and expect Krsna to arrange for your life to become altered. Material life will begin to show itself for what it is and Krsna will provide all the impetus both positive and negative you need to surrender. Sridhara Maharaja once relayed that in a dream he found that everything he possessed was slipping away, even his knowledge, and in the end all he had left was his faith. This is an ego effacing path. Be prepared for a good ego bashing on a daily basis. You're an eternal servant of Krsna and everything on the path is leading toward that realization.

Spritual life is about giving, not getting. The basic understanding of what bhakti is has to be there - it is all about unmotivated and uninterupted giving. All the motivations we have are so many impediments to real progress in bhakti. The sayings such as: giving is recieving, or, it is better to give than to recieve, give to live etc. all have so much meaning and all point at the pivotal theme in spiritual life - give. A realistic expectation in spritual life is that a person can give all they have because Krsna is unlimited and can accept unlimitedly. As much as we become givers, that much we progress in our pursuit of spiritual life. I assume that ccbrahma's thread about his disappointment in following bhakti sadhana is what gave you impetus to start this thread. My basic thoughts about his experience is that following rules for their own sake is niamagraha - it is detrimental to the development of bhakti. The reason for a rule has to be understood thoroughly, only then can one apply it properly and advance thereby. Bhakti isn't about rules afterall - love has no laws - when you love you know what to do. The whole point of spiritual practice is develop love. Without that as the central theme the whole thing is pointless and is bound to end in frustration. Chant with feeling and everything else will follow. If you can't do that then chant with feeling about your inability to chant with feeling. Krsna will respond according to the chanters heart.

Beggar's point is that your subjective experience is not that of others nor should you measure others by your subjective reality. The objective point of tattva is the universal principal of Guru bhakti and seva, the subjective part is what Beggar was pointing out is inappropriate and fanatical. According to you, those who fall at the feet of your Gurudeva are the one's who most appreciate and follow Sridhara Maharaja, but that is only your subjective opinion and then calling those who don't 'honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes' fits within your subjective experience but it will definitely be seen as fanatical and possibly offensive by others.

cbrahma, If you truly want to advance spiritually then you should seek sadhu sanga. Read Srimad Bhagavatam and try to ascertain what the qualities and characteristics of a sadhu are. You will see that they are independent of socio-religious status. Try to find someone who truly loves Krsna and who lives their life absorbed in his seva 24/7. The first step in that search is to want that in your own life. Guru will come to you when Krsna sees in your heart, which you can't hide from him, that you simply can't live without him. When the intensity of your search reaches a feverish pitch Krsna will reciprocate. Then you will find a genuine friend and guide coming to help you. Not to stomp on you or abuse you, but rather to embrace you and encourage you and share his/her bhava with you.

No need to judge anyone else. If you really want to love and serve Krsna he knows it - in the form of Caitya Guru. When your intensity raises in pitch Krsna will come before you externally as Sri Guru. You will feel the inner inspiration to develop a deep connection with Him/Her. It is really quite natural and based on your own inner faith development. It is not anything external or formal - it is about a deep heart connection.

The person who asked this question may not even read threads on this board any longer since it was asked over two years ago. However I believe the answer is fairly simple. Marry a person you love and who shares your lifes ideals. Marry someone who will support you in all your goals and help you to realize them. Amongst western converts to Gaudiya Vaishnavism the divorce rates are considerably higher than the average for the population in general, so a happy union is not guaranteed even if you restrict yourself to marrying someone 'from within your own faith'. My experience in marriage is that a lasting and loving relationship requires deep commitment and that there will be many twists and turns along the way, as there are in any deep and meaningful relationship. I have been married for 20 years now and I am as committed to my wife as when we first took our vows. We have had some very trying times and it certainly isn't fairytale like in any way, but if you expect that then you shouldn't marry anyone because it will only end in disappointment for everyone involved. Love is born of sacrifice. In relationship you must be prepared to give, you must be prepared to truly become selfless and act on another behalf without thought of remuneration.

Diksha is not a formality. It is only so for one who doesn't understand properly. A serious student will realize that good company is a necessity for actual advancement. Diksha is never a mere formality - real diksha is the necessity of any genuine spiritual aspirant. The requirement is genuine dedication. Where shall the genuine aspirant serve? How will such an aspirant make progress toward the goal of loving Krsna? General instructions are there for everyone - Sravanam, Kirtanam, Krsna smaranam, follow certain principles meant to help you develop sensitivity and elevate you to goodness, sadhu sanga etc. For specific instructions - those are given by a sadhu in whom the genuine aspirant has faith and in whom he/she sees their highest prospect. Diksha is not some trivial thing or some formality. It is a loving exchange of faith between an advanced vaishnava and a genuine aspirant. It is important to understand that the real necessity of Diksha is not something that is forced or can be institutionalized. The real necessity comes in the heart of the devotee when he/she is ready to begin the process of dedication in earnest. Krsna reciprocates with us all according to our interest in him. He comes as Sri Guru to those who are at the stage where they can see him there and are ready to take shelter in a more focused and personal way. If you really want to be Krsna conscious - associate with like minded people and find someone who is advanced in their practice that can help inspire you to improve and deepen your own practice.

It is said that the kanistha and the uttama devotee are characterized by their lack of discrimination. For the kanistha and others around him/her that is a problem whereas for the uttama and those around him/her it is a blessing. Certainly most would agree that Srila Prabhupada is an uttama bhakta and everyone must agree that he personally initiated and accepted all of his disciples. He encouraged them in every way and often overlooked their faults. Did Srila Prabhupada accept Ramesvara? Bhavananda? Kirtanananda? The others whose character and actions have been less than acceptable and are being brought to task in this thread? If we want to progress (which is the hallmark of the madhyama devotee) then we must discriminate. We must see things and people for who they are and we must strive to associate ourselves with devotees whose only interest is suddha bhakti. At the same time we must also honor devotion and see the good in others. Srila Prabhupada has many disciples and they all have a variety of qualities. He is always seeing good in them and encouraging them in service. What is my point? Whatever they have done and whatever they may do, these are sadhakas who Srila Prabhupada has personally extended himself to and is personally responsible for in terms of helping them advance. We all should be careful how we think and speak about them. We may distance ourselves from some, and rightly so for our own good, and we should certainly always point out proper vaishnava behavior from behavior which is unbecoming - but we should stir clear of personal judgement. Sridhara Maharaja said that those who are in the mercy line should not call out for judgement. I heard one christian say 'judge not unless you be judged'. What did Christ say? Something about you who have not sinned throwing the first stone? Any movement a jiva makes toward Krsna and his service should be met with great celebration. I am personally happy to see anyone come forward for sevice.

Dear Visnu, Why respond to only part of my post? I gave the example of the ganges because that is given to us as an intruction in hari-bhakti vilasa. It is used to illustrate the point that we are not to judge a vaishnava based on external/material considerations. Maybe you can explain your comment better. Should I understand you to be saying if it is in scripture and about someone universally accepted as pure within our tradition we should view violent ends or diseased states as 'pastimes'? When the violent ends or diseased states are manifested in comtemporary vaishnavas we should see that as a result of their karma and a sign of impurity? Since your not stating any philosophical position or the point you are trying to make we are left to conjecture on our own what you think. Better to follow scripture and see the good in all vaishnavas. What part of respect all others and expect no respect in return is unclear? The very premise that started this thread is flawed and offensive at best. You cannot judge a vaishnava on such a basis and we are clearly instructed no to do so.

This idea that a devotee who suffers from a debilitating or painful disease must be impure or some such thing is totally apasiddhantic. Just like the ganges may have garbage or be 'polluted' in so many ways from a material perspective, the spiritual perspective is that the ganges is pure and purifying. What did Mahaprabhu do when he saw the oozing sores on Sanatana Goswami's body? In general it is not offensive to compare and contrast devotees and try to understand their respective positions. It becomes detrimental to devotion, however, when one attempts to put one devotee on a pedestal by stepping on or denigrating others. Try to follow our acharyas and purify yourself rather than finding fault with others. If you don't find a particular devotee to be inspirational then don't closely associate with that person. Srila Prabhupada saw the potential in all of his disciples and engaged them accordingly. Don't try to judge a devotees purity or lack thereof based on some material consideration. Was Bishma (one of the 12 Mahajanas identified in Srimad Bhagavatam that we are to follow) impure by your calculation because he met a violent end with arrows piercing his entire body? Honestly, try to follow our Lords instructions in his Sikshastakam. Honor all others. You show no honor to others by denigrating them - that should be readily apparent to you.

It is unbecoming of a follower of any path to denigrate that of another. Mahabharata is smriti, not sruti - but that is another matter. I haven't seen anyone quote from the sruti in this thread so I'm not sure what the Vedic reference is all about. Certainly Krsna is not happy when Lord Shiva or his devotees are denigrated, likewise Lord Shiva is not happy when Krsna and his followers are denigrated. Please try to refrain from stepping on the faith of someone just because it is different than your own.