Murali_Mohan_das

Ah, Merciful Prabhus. I will have a hard time wiping this smile off of my face. I only mention the 4 regs here because the one about gambling is the only one with which I've had consistent success. I don't want to be a complete and utter failure--I'm satisfied with garden-variety failure. But seriously, Guruvani-ji, how's your Sanskrit? I have a limerick or two I'd like translated.

I guess it's true what they say: it's easy enough to fake humility, but tolerance is not so easy to fake. 4 Regs. How's *your* Sanskrit, Prabhu? Since you speak with such great authority, perhaps you can enlighten us where the other great Vaishnavas have not succeeded? Well, I'm glad that *you* have not denied yourself that spiritual power, Prabhu, and are relishing those transcendental mellows as is abundantly obvious by your sweet mood of distribution. As for "useless scientific understandings of the universe", I suspect that the server hosting this site is physically located in India (since it sometimes takes quite a while to respond). Regardless of where it is located, it is by the mercy of the Lord coming in the form of "useless scientific understandings of the universe" that you are reading these words.

Guruvani-ji. Are you and Chaturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-Raja twin brothers by any chance? Your boastful moods (which I have favorably compared to that of Lord Balarama) are so very similar. Perhaps there is not a verse in Bhagavatam which explicitly states the Earth is flat, but, from reading this chapter literally, one would certainly assume that the *Universe*, not just this world, is flat: http://vedabase.net/sb/5/20/en I did a Google search for "Concentric circles vedabase" since I recall the universe being described in those terms. Interestingly, I got results for both "concentric circles" as well as "concentric shells". A circle, of course, is flat. A "shell" is a sphere. No need for personal (ad hominem) attacks on those trying to faithfully serve Gurudev.

In looking back through this long discussion, I came across many gems of note, which I hope to drag back to the surface. However, in looking for a verse in the Vedabase, I came across this one: From this verse, it is very clear that the Supreme Lord has no material activites. It's reasonable to assume that that includes material acts of creation. When I hear the term "Intelligent Designer", the image that comes to mind immediately is that of an old God sitting at his drafting table chuckling over His latest design for the platypus. What is revealed in Brahma Samhita, however, is that the Lord's role in Creation is really to plant the seed into the heart of Lord Brahma, who undertakes all the "heavy lifting", so to speak. More quotes to follow, God-willing.

Perhaps they can if the "hit" takes the form of some sort of food poisoning (yes, that would be uncharacteristically subtle for Tony). So much for work...

I could (and maybe I will) continue with my rational extrapolations in reply to you, but this highlights one of the great limitations of science, namely, that much of science consists of rational extrapolations based on what really amounts to an insignificant amount of data. So, acknowledging that these are mere musings, and the further we get from the actual data, the more tenuous our position becomes... Yes, according to the Vedas, many of the life forms in the universe are not gross (as our bodies are) but are subtle. Granted that they are subtle, would it not also be fair to assume that they are not as geographically constrained as the gross forms of life? Perhaps they can travel through gross matter at will? If so, perhaps there are only a handful of such forms (say a couple of hundred thousand) in the universe. As for gross life forms, fire bodies aside, is it not a fair assumption that (especially if we assume the 8,400,000 are archetypes), on planets similar to ours, that similar (if not identical) forms of life would have arisen? Way back in the beginning of this thread, Theist-ji, you seemed to imply that science had already identified more than 8,400,000 species. Now that that assumption appears to be patently false, why hang stubbornly onto your skepticism? Can you not suspend your judgement?

Absolutely. So, if there's a great impending catastrophe to which the majority is oblivious, it is imperative that the few who are aware of the catastrophe sacrifice their own need for acceptance by the majority to inform them--in any way possible--of the imminent danger. Catastrophe is at all times imminent! Govinda!!!!

If 5.999 billion of those bodyguards were in the form of friendly intestinal flora (you probably have a similar number within your own innards), this is not at all a stretch of the imagination. Not saying that I (or anyone) can rationally explain all these puzzling things, just saying that we cannot deny such a rational explanation exists--regardless of how far beyond our comprehension it is. I really should try to get some work done today...

Yes, I recall that phenomenon well. Of course, it's altogether possible that we *are* being fooled into thinking (and percieving) that the world is round when it is really flat. Recall the lila between Sri Krishna and Lord Brahma. By the Lord's sweet will, all the residents of Vrindavan were fooled into thinking that all their relatives and cows were present when they had been sequestered in a cave for a year. For the Lord, tricking us into thinking the world is round, and assuring that our "science" will verify this and all experiments and physical laws will be consistent with this is a trivial matter. Even in the realm of mathematics (topography, to be precise), there is so much expertise in manipulating shapes. In Physics, with string theory and the like, we see consideration that so many seemingly impossible things are possible. Now, do I agree with you that it's probably not a good idea to postulate such things to the faithless? Absolutely. Going back to the 8,400,000 number you question. Just this morning, I came across this article (linked to from Slashdot): http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/eol-wls050507.php In it is the claim that science has identified and named 1.8 million species on this planet. So, since this number and the number given in the Vedas are within an order of magnitude in difference, and given the scientific assumption that, if life exists elsewhere in the universe, it is not very common, I'd say the 8,400,000 number passes the "straight face" test.

Ziiiiinggg!!! Yowzas!! Well, Prabhus, thanks for your good association, but I've got to dash to pick up the kids. This is another day I managed to get little useful done for my employers, but found much nourishment pouring from the mice and keyboards of the Vaishnavas. Gaura Hari!!!!

That's very good. Read it another several thousand times and it might start to sink in, eh?

Well, there are no prerequisites for chanting the Holy Names, but there *are* prerequisites for studying Srimad Bhagavatam, are there not? Isn't some degree of purity required?

I try to remember this when I'm tempted to say "my guru" or "your guru" (as if Guru could be "mine"--ha ha ha!!).

I wouldn't be too certain of that Guruvani-ji. Just the other day, Muralidhar Prabhu revealed to me his four-armed form

Muralidhar Prabhu. You are so right. I find it is those who are ignorant of science that tend to either deify or demonize it. For those familiar with science, it is just another tool--like a hammer--who would quarrel with a hammer (a poor craftsman, perhaps)? Srila Prabhupada, in his mood as acharya (acharya abhiman) would frequently point out the limitations of science. He can do that since he is (aside from being a pure devotee of the Lord) an educated man and a scientist (chemist). Srila Prabhupada could insult a scientist to his face and the scientist would laugh and accept the correction. If we insult the scientists, they will simply go away with a bitter taste in their mouths.

To clarify my point... The fact that the "missing link" or intermediary species between ape and human has not been found doesn't mean that fossils of same do not exist. Now, finding a skeleton of Homo Sapiens that can be reliably dated to several million years prior to the accepted "birth" of the species, *would* tend to put a dent in the theory of evolution. Of course, this brings up the human element of science--often, data which do not fit the accepted paradigm are discarded as being erroneous. I've not read the book, but I understand much of this is covered in "Forbidden Archeology".

Thank you, Siva Prabhu for providing some all-important context to these words of our Master!

As I mentioned above, Theist-ji, the lack of evidence cannot prove anything. Only proof to the contrary would. Consider for a moment, the surface area of the world. Then consider just how many archeological digs have taken place. There is no way to claim that even the smallest portion of the archeological record has been revealed. Even then, as far as Kurukshetra goes, there is the description of weapons of similar intensity to conventional nuclear weapons. If such weapons were in play, one would expect to find little remaining except some melted glass.

Guruvani Prabhu. It delights me to find myself in complete agreement with your statements below. Even the scientist, absent proof to the contrary (for the lack of proof is *not* the same as proof to the contrary), must accept that all these things described in the Vedas are at least *possible* in some realm, if highly improbable according to his/her own intuition. It's a dangerous game to pick and choose what to accept as "fact" and what to relegate to "allegory". In fact, finding myself almost always in agreement with Theist-ji, I wondered, when I saw this thread, if he/she had been hitting the bong again (since, as Srila Sridhar Maharaj points out (and I know from first-hand experience), ganja is an enemy of faith). Not that these topics should be avoided, but, as you point out, for the faithful, there is no doubt.

Going back to Theist Prabhu's initial question... I recently read the Wikipedia article on Carl Linnaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linnaeus), known as the "father of modern taxonomy", who devised the current binomial nomenclature used in science to identify species. Apparently, his work was not without some controversy. See the section called "Mankind" for his proposals to classify humans in four sub-groups based on what could be considered racist assumptions. Any system of taxonomy will, by necessity, be somewhat arbitrary in its delineations. So, we can understand the 8,400,000 species number to be yet another arbitrary system of classification. Yet, Srila Prabhupada seems very certain that this is the number (which indicates that it may not be arbitrary). Another thing to consider is: what about extinction? When the dodo bird became extinct, were there suddenly 8,399,999 species of life in the universe? If not, then, perhaps that number is not so arbitrary, but can be seen as a sort of cosmological constant (like dimensions appear to be). As my stepfather pointed out, numerologically, 8,400,000 reduces to 3 (8 + 4 = 12; 1 + 2 = 3), which is a cosmically significant number: electron, neutron, proton; quantum spin states (up, down, superposition of both); etc. Perhaps there are 8,400,000 *archetypes* for life forms. It's fun to speculate, but, in the end, unless we are rocket scientists or authors of farmer's almanacs, what difference does it make in our daily lives and spiritual practices whether or not the moon is closer to the earth than the sun?

When it comes to astrophysics, the speculations of somebody like Stephen Hawking are given a lot of respect and serious consideration, unlike my own speculations. When it comes to the Absolute Truth, the self-acknowledged speculations of somebody like Thakur Bhaktivinoda are of utmost interest to the sincere seeker. So, Muralidhar Prabhu, of course you are right. We can also muse on the nature of Reality as Bhaktivinoda has. We can also try to cultivate his mood of utmost humility.

Since I posted the letter to which I was responding, and since the letter contains many "factual" errors in addition to theological errors, I am including a response from another recipient of the letter, and my own response to that response:

I quoted the above passage in a reply to my (Christian) uncle who forwarded me the following: THE SPEECH GEORGE BUSH SHOULD GIVE We all have our disagreements with President Bush. Immigration, U.S. Attorney firings, Iraq, Darfur, etc. are all hot topics these days. The following "speech" was written yesterday by an ordinary "Maineiac." While satirical in nature, all satire must have a basis in fact to be effective. An excellent piece by a person who does not write for a living. Sent with the author's permission. The speech George W. Bush SHOULD give: Normally, I start these things out by saying "My Fellow Americans", not doing it this time. If the polls are any indication, I don't know who more than half of you are anymore. I do know something terrible has happened, and that you're really not fellow Americans any longer. I'll cut right to the chase here: I quit. Now before anyone gets all in a lather about me quitting to avoid impeachment, or to avoid prosecution or something, let me assure you, there's been no breaking of laws or impeachable offenses in this office. The reason I'm quitting is simple. I'm fed up with you people. I'm fed up because you have no understanding of what's really going on in the world. Or of what's going on in this once-great nation of ours. And the majority of you are too damned lazy to do your homework and figure it out. Let's start local. You've been sold a bill of goods by politicians and the news media. Polls show that the majority of you think the economy is in the tank. And that's despite record numbers of homeowners including record numbers of MINORITY homeowners. And while we're mentioning minorities, I'll point out that minority business ownership is at an all-time high. Our unemployment rate is as low as it ever was during the Clinton Administration. I've mentioned all those things before, but it doesn't seem to have sunk in. Despite the shock to our economy of 9/11, the stock market has rebounded to record levels and more Americans than ever are participating in these markets. Meanwhile, all you can do is whine about gas prices, and most of you are too damn stupid to realize that gas prices are high because there's increased demand in other parts of the world, and because a small handful of noisy idiots are more worried about polar bears and beachfront property than your economic security. We face real threats in the world. Don't give me this "blood for oil" thing. If I was trading blood for oil I would've already seized Iraq's oil fields and let the rest of the country go to hell. And don't give me this 'Bush Lied People Died' crap either. If I was the liar you morons take me for, I could've easily had chemical weapons planted in Iraq so they could be 'discovered.' Instead, I owned up to the fact that the intelligence was faulty. Let me remind you that the rest of the world thought Saddam had the goods, same as me. Let me also remind you that regime change in Iraq was official US policy before I came into office. Some guy named 'Clinton' established that policy. Bet you didn't know that, did you? You idiots need to understand that we face a unique enemy. Back during the cold war, there were two major competing political and economic models squaring off. We won that war, but we did so because fundamentally, the Communists wanted to survive, just as we do. We were simply able to outspend and out-tech them. That's not the case this time. The soldiers of our new enemy don't care if they survive. In fact, they want to die. That'd be fine, as long as they weren't also committed to taking as many of you with them as they can. But they are. They want to kill you. And the bastards are all over the globe. You should be grateful that they haven't gotten any more of us here in the United States si nce September 11. But you're not. That's because you've got no idea how hard a small number of intelligence, military, law enforcement and homeland security people have worked to make sure of that. When this whole mess started, I warned you that this would be a long and difficult fight. I'm disappointed how many of you people think a long and difficult fight amounts to a single season of 'Survivor'. Instead, you've grown impatient. You're incapable of seeing things through the long lens of history, the way our enemies do. You think that wars should last a few months, a few years, tops. Making matters worse, you actively support those who help the enemy. Every time you buy the New York Times, every time you send a donation to a cut-and-run Democrat's political campaign, well, dammit, you might just as well Fedex a grenade launcher to a Jihadist. It amounts to the same thing. In this day and age, it's easy enough to find the truth. It's all over the Internet. It just isn't on the pages of the New York Times or on NBC News. But even if it were, I doubt you'd be any smarter. Most of you would rather watch American Idol. I could say more about your expectations that the government will always be there to bail you out, even if you're too stupid to leave a city that's below sea level and has a hurricane approaching. I could say more about your insane belief that government, not your own wallet, is where the money comes from. But I've come to the conclusion that were I to do so, it would sail right over your heads. So I quit. I'm going back to Crawford. I've got an energy-efficient house down there (Al Gore could only dream) and the capability to be fully self- sufficient. No one ever heard of Crawford before I got elected, and as soon as I'm done here pretty much no one will ever hear of it again. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to die of old age before the last pillars of America fall. Oh, and by the way, Cheney's quitting too. That means Pelosi is your new President . You asked for it. Watch what she does carefully, because I still have a glimmer of hope that there're just enough of you remaining who are smart enough to turn this thing around in 2008. So that's it. God bless what's left of America. Some of you know what I mean.

Question. For how many thousands of years in Bharatbhumi has the word "kapi" been translated into English as "monkey"? To me it makes little difference if Hanuman-ji is a monkey or a monkey-like human. In fact, while I haven't been around many monkeys in person, just from the pictures and video of monkeys I've seen, it seems evident that there is a great intelligence (and even wisdom) present in them. One could even go so far to say that many monkeys are more spiritually-evolved than some degraded humans we might encounter.