Murali_Mohan_das

I keep getting time-out errors trying to connect to: http://www.mandala.com.au/ Can anybody else connect? Help, Muralidhar Prabhu!!

You're right about me. My devotion is anything but pure. Unlike the gopis, I am still seeking liberation from misery rather than perpetual service engagement. Once again, Gurudev is my "gold standard". As for proof. The proof is in your heart. Your brain will never know what your heart may know. Govinda!!

No U-turn. If you go back and read the thread, you mock people who engage in solitary Bhajan. I defend them. Never did I say *everybody* should be a bhajananandi. Did I? If you want to talk about me (and I'd rather talk about Gurudev, Mahaprabhu, and Radha-Krishna), I'll be the first to admit that I am an envious wretch despite having been granted such a conducive life by Guru and Krishna. In Gurudev, though, I see no such jealousy or envy. He is my yardstick by which I measure myself and everything else. If you note my writing, I try to be very careful. When I say "Vaishnava", I mean "Vaishnava", not "aspiring-Vaishnava." A "real" Vaishnava is a very rare person to find. If somebody is chanting and still suffering, then their chanting is not yet pure. Still, though, may people, while still suffering, are getting great relief from chanting the Holy Name--even if their chanting is "hazy". Exactly. If you're so convinced he's not real, then just forget about him and go on with your "enjoying." You need to get out more. Gurudev is holding this whole world up with his pinkie. How can you be so blind? Well talking with you is inspiring me to do the work for which I'm being paid. That is an amazing and wondrous thing!! Bless your heart! Hare Krishna! The Lord is saving me countless times each moment!! Thanks for asking! Gauranga!!!

You may have your doubts, but I don't have so many. While I may have never glimpsed Goloka proper, I've been blinded by enough divine brilliance to be quite assured that, ultimately, all is good. Better than that, I know a man who is there *NOW*. He's there *and* he's here telling us what it is like. I call him Gurudev. You can see from my user info, I live in Santa Cruz, California, USA. If you're not familiar with it, it is one of the more desirable places to live in the US. On these forums recently, I recalled attending my first rock concert and "partying" back-stage with many prominent celebrities of the day. My father's college friend was an Executive VP at MTV Networks, so I've attended MTV Music Video Awards and MTV Movie Awards ceremonies and parties perhaps half a dozen times. I attended (a prestigious) college in NYC (New York City), where I spent some time in the more trendy clubs, occasionally dancing 'til dawn. You can judge for yourself whether I'm good-looking, but I don't recall ever having to wait at the ropes like the "regular folks"--of course, having beautiful women with you helps too. I've had more lovers than I can count on my two hands (one of them had formerly been model for a Bacardi Rum ad). They didn't find my appearance all that offensive. I've tried just about any drug that I've cared to try (some more than once). Enough partying credentials? Can I stop bragging now? I tell you with all honesty--none of those material pleasures can compare with the joy of hearing Gurudev say my name (the one he gave me) with affection (which has happened once). Everywhere. It's a real shame you can't see that for yourself. Perhaps if you opened your eyes? Where do Kenya and almost all other countries in the world send their best and brightest for college? The UK and the US, perhaps? It's a silly question. If you want to start a world-wide movement--go to the country that houses the UN!! Srila Prabhupada's disciples have carried his message to every corner of the Earth. He too was already in Goloka, long before he left his body. Do you have any idea just what Srila Prabhupada did between '67 and '77 at an already advanced age? A mere "mortal" would have keeled over after a year or two of what he did. Sleeping two hours a night so he could translate as much as possible. How long can *you* function on two hours a night? That and travelling the world many times. Srila Prabhupada was part of the "suicide squad" as it is called by Gurudev. He was truly "dying to live". He gave his every breath during that time so that you and I could suffer less (if we have the wisdom to utilize the fruits of his labor). Indra is enjoying the fruits of his Karma. Unless he's a Vaishnava, though, he is still bound by those things which he is enjoying and will fall from his position when his karmic account is depleted. How many lifetimes have I spent enjoying the "pleasures" of this Earth? What has it gotten me but further entangled? The difference between material and spiritual pleasures is: material pleasures are sweetest at the beginning and grow more bitter over time. Due to our conditioning, spiritual life may seem bitter at first, but it grows increasingly sweet as we progress. I haven't read the book you mention, but I enjoyed the film "The Emperor's New Groove".

It really *is* painful to try to make sense of your writing. The body of the Vaishnava may appear to be diseased. The Vaishnava is tolerating apparent illness with no mental distress. Their hearts, minds, and soul-force are directed solely towards the Lord. What would be unbearable pain to us is not the slightest distraction to them. Now, contrast that with somebody like LBJ (Lyndon B. Johnson, 36th US President),who, after the assassination of President Kennedy became the most powerful man in the world. Perhaps wracked by guilt for all of the actions he had taken in pursuit of power, he did not seek re-election and died a short time later, a broken, depressed man. Gurudev has never advised me to renounce my worldly duties and go perform solitary bhajan. That is sometimes accepted (and even glorified), but not really encouraged by the spiritual descendents of Srila Prabhupad. Rather, he advises us to follow Sri Krishna's advice in Bhagavad Gita. We must continue doing our duties. However, as Vaishnavas, we will do our duties without attachment to the results. All of our actions (even the seemingly mundane ones) will be done in a mood of devotion to the Lord. As the Lord wishes, we may be rewarded with great material facility (not all Vaishnavas are poor mendicants--See Pundarik Vidhyanidhi for a prominent example of an apparent sense-enjoyer who was really a great Vaishnava). However, the Lord, in His Mercy usually awards riches to those devotees of his who are in the best position to engage those facilities in service. To answer one of your questions: yes, you can "enjoy" mundane "pleasures" indefinitely. Let me ask you, at the end of it, what will that get you? The real disease is called hrd-rogam or "heart disease". We're not talking about angina here. We're talking about jealousy towards our Sweet Lord. It's about failing to see that our greatest pleasure and well-being comes not from serving our own whims, but serving the Lord.

Reading "Divine Aspiration", I came across a passage that reminded me of our good friend on these forums, Guruvani. Could he be inspired by Vrindavan Das Thakur? I couldn't find an online copy at the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math web site (http://scsmath.com), but I *did* find the passage here: http://www.mahaprabhu.net/greatness.html

Yep. Count me in the red-yellow-cone camp. Everybody in this discussion is right in their own way. This is yet another example of the blind wise men arguing about the elephant.

Nice!! This is along the lines of what I wanted to post to the "Intelligent Designer" discussion a while back. While the Lord is planting the seeds and setting creation in motion, the universe is unfolding somewhat autonomously (by the Sweet Will of the Lord, of course).

Folks intent on enjoying their senses often end up dying painful deaths from heart failure, diabetes, cancer, etc. There's ample "proof" of that. I'm not the biggest party person, but none of the mundane pleasures I've "enjoyed" can come close to the pure joy of participating in an ecstatic kirtan. No hangover the next day. No sense of guilt. Pure joy. Your mileage may vary (YMMV). What's so lazy about going against the overwhelming trend of seeking mundane sense-enjoyment? Do you have any idea what mundane vices the Vaishnavas have happily renounced (along with the affection of some family members) in order to take part in the Sankirttan movement of Mahaprabhu?

This is where many of us go astray. We forget that Vaikunta, Goloka, and hell are all states of consciousness, not geographical locations. Remembering that puts the terms "fall", "dreaming", "return", etc. into a different perspective, doesn't it? [and, yes, I know I can't go to Goloka in my mind--just referencing James Taylor]

When I'm trying to explain a concept to somebody and they are just not getting it, I try to explain it in a different way. If they still can't get it, I try to explain it in an even simpler (reduced) fashion. This seems to be what Srila Prabhupada was doing in the conversations. Everything is there in the books for those with the sincerity and purity of heart to read it without imposing their own speculative interpretations upon the scripture, but so many of us fail to grasp the meaning. Guru, in his mercy, will try to explain things in a way we can grasp. In this sense, I agree with what Guruvani is saying about Prabhupadas lectures and books. Unlike Srila Prabhupada, if I was faced with so much stubborn attachment to ignorance, I would have been screaming exasperatedly in no time.

Holy mackerel!! What joy! I read the whole thing eagerly, but how about a one or two line summary for those with less patience, eh, krsna-ji? Something like: in the spiritual realm every activity is joyful, even those which would be tedious to us on this plane of struggle. Of course, if one has some taste, reading the words of Param-Gurudev are like showering in a rain of nectar.

The hardest thing for me is adjusting myself to the environment rather than trying to adjust the environment to suit me. I just started reading Srila Sridhar Maharaja's "Divine Aspiration", and this theme is echoed there. From page 30:

When we get cold, we must stand closer to the fire. When our inspiration is lacking, we can associate (virtually or physically) with those persons who are inspired. Inattentive chanting is seen as being offensive. If we can not chant attentively, better to engage ourselves in some other way (like, as theist suggests, hearing the chanting of those who are chanting purely). There's no reason why we need to feel like we are alone in this journey.

Well, if one see's Mahaprabhu's Sankirttan movement as a battle campaign--a war--as I believe the two Prabhupadas (with whom we are most familiar) did, then a good general might accept calculated long-term (or short-term) losses with even longer-term successes in mind. As I've said before in (online) print, I feel all the growing pains Gaudiya Vaishnavism has gone through in the West (and even in the East) have been worthwhile. The message of Mahaprabhu is being spread further and more widely than ever before in recorded history. Many of us initially have no faith which may be compromised. Propaganda may be used to attract those with good inclinations. Like it has been said, "They'll come for the prasadam [or propaganda], but they'll stay for the philosophy." As we say here in Santa Cruz: It's all good.

To be fair, the acharyas *do* at times say strong things like that they declare "totalitarian war against maya", but, these statements need to be understood in the context of preaching, don't they? Things are said for the sake of propaganda (and even "motivating the troops") that may not strictly be in accord with siddhanta. Also, the maya (small "m") which we are declaring war against really is what theist describes--the thick layer of crust covering our own pure consciousness. Maya Devi Herself remains worshippable.

Wow!! Wow! After all, she *is* cradling us in her lap like helpless little babes.

You and me both, brother!! I fear I'm much too glib for my own good!

Sorry, Guest, but I'm not following you here. This is more like an SMS text message and not so much like English. Can you clarify?

Thanks, that's great. Hasn't it also been said that between the Big Bangs (as described in Srimad Bhagavatam as the inhalations and exhalations of Maha-Vishnu) there are a number of smaller dissolutions? Couldn't Matsya, Kurma, etc. have come after one of these great minor dissolutions wiped all hominids off the face of the earth? Also, these things are cyclical are they not? Why would Jayadev Goswami pick those particular incarnations in that particular order for his Dasavatara Stotaram? Was he not divinely inspired? Or is it a mere coincidence? Was Parashuram a member of "Homo Sapiens"?

Really??? Humans? Or Devas and Asuras in human-like form. This is just from memory, but in the pastime of Kurma, I recall only mention of Devas and Asuras. Were there common Homo Sapiens as well? Shastric evidence? In any case, I wasn't proposing that this is scientific (or even siddhantic) evidence for evolution, merely that it is a very interesting analog. Maybe it's just my mind, but I cannot help but find significance in this apparent progression.

Hmmmm...fearing Maya could certainly be said to be *USEFUL*, but is it the highest realization? Now, I'm not too clear on the distinctions between Yoga-Maya and Maha-Maya (somebody help me here!!), but isn't it only by the mercy of Maya Devi that we can even see the Most Beautiful Shyamasundar form of the Lord? That is to say, if we were under no delusion at all, wouldn't we, as did Arjuna, see the Lord's Universal Form in all it's fearsome splendor and glory? Wouldn't we, as Arjuna did, cower before this awful (in the classical sense of the word) form and pray for the Lord's mercy (by way of Maya Devi?) to see his more beautiful form? I could be way off base here...let me know, good Vaishnavas!!

I'm going to have to show my daughter that emoticon/gremlin!! She can't read yet (thankfully), but she'll get a big kick out of that image!!!

It all depends on what your definition of "is" is. --Bill Clinton

...and, in the Dasavatara Stotaram, one can (if so inclined) see a Divine Evolution of the Species. The Lord comes as fish, tortoise, boar, etc. in ever-increasingly complex forms.