Murali_Mohan_das

Great quote!!! Very few would have the courage to question that Srila Prabhupad was qualified to give everything. Param-Gurudev has recognized him as shaktyavesha (empowered) avatar of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Now, just how many times is it recorded that Srila Prabhupad spoke about Rasa Lila with his disciples in great detail? Did he feel we (disciples, grand-disciples, God-nephews and God-nieces) were ready to hear this? What was Srila Prabhupada's reaction when he heard about the "Gopi Bhava Club"? Srila Sridhar Maharaj, in the quote preceeding this post, makes clear what the mood of the Vaishnava is. The Vaishnava sees himself as unqualified.

Here's the quote form Prapannam Jivanamritam I promised. For those familiar with my presence in this forum know that I am not inclined to quote scripture, but, as I was reading this to my children at bed time last night, I was struck by how appropriate this passage is to this line of enquiry. From Sri Sri Prapanna Jivanamrita by Srila B.R. Sridhar Dev-Goswami (Forward, pg. xxii-xxiii): http://scsmath.net/math/docs/Prapanna-Jivanamritam.pdf So, whatever you do, don't get scorched by the sun. Stay at the feet of Gurudev!!!

Quote from Anadi Prabhu from a thread that has been closed (since it had gone off-topic, I assume). What about chanting the Mahamantra ("Hare Krishna") for 30 years without understanding the full significance of it (and, of course, devising mundane interpretations of it is one of the 10 Offenses to the Holy Name)? Is that also "not very useful for Bhakti"? Do you propose that, in order to derive benefit from the medicine prescribed by the doctor that we must have full knowledge of all the biological processes involved the application of the medicine? Surely not!!! We derive benefit from chanting "Jaya Radhe Jaya Krisna" or Mahamantra regardless of our mood or understanding (though, of course, the degree of benefit received is closely tied to the mood in which chanting occurs). Better to have *no* understanding than a *false* or poisonous understanding, no? While you may make so many scriptural quotes, Anadi-ji, in support of reading the intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, on this topic, Param-Gurudev, Srila Sridhar Maharaj has quoted the Bible: Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. So, I certainly cannot tell you whether you were qualified to hear these pastimes from Sripad Bhaktivendanta Narayan Maharaj, or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you, but the fact (as related by you) that he no longer is blessing the eager in such a manner ought to be revelatory to you if Sripad Narayan Maharaj is Guru to you. There are some very relavant quotes from Param-Gurudeva's Sri Sri Prapanna-Jivanamritam which shed light on the other quotes you furnished in the previous thread. I cannot find a text version of the book online (only PDF with images), so I hope to transcribe those later for our benefit. For now, I leave you with a relevant quote from the holy Monty Python's Meaning of Life: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/quotes

Obviously, Yadu-ji had a different relationship with Radha Kund Prabhu, but this article describes the same often outrageous devotee on whom I meditate: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-07/editorials1433.htm A Farewell to Radha Kunda Prabhu, My Friend and Brother BY: YADUNANDANA PADA DASA Apr 15, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (SUN) — Yes, Radha Kunda Prabhu, was and continues to be my dear friend and God Brother and he also became my brother in life. In light of all the types I have met through our sanga over my lifetime, I found Radha Kunda Prabhu to have his very own special and exclusive candor, nearly shameless sincerity, unlike others who posture and position themselves almost in artificial imposition to the mainstream. Radha Kunda was in his own exclusive manner extremely sincere to others of exactly who he was and was not. This I found deeply and profoundly special, even though I saw it as a material weakness on his part. I was never happier for him than when I found him living in Vrndavan years ago, finally giving up the West for Vraja. I knew then, as he knew, that this move to Vraja was permanent until the end of this chapter. He was tired of the material world and often spoke of living in caves rather than having to deal with the Maya that was driven by the rules and taboos of the various societies and cultures of East and West. This intolerance to the world made him belligerent. Radha Kunda Prabhu was difficult, irresponsible and overbearing at times, yet loving and endearing, almost tender and often generous of himself, when was able to be at rest. He made me (and so many) laugh and cry, as I cry now, and often very angry or displeased, but most of all he made me live a whole lot more than if I had never met him, both spiritually and materially. He was wild and passionate, yet he was vulnerable and sentimental. Sometimes he would make me laugh for hours on end with his cynicism of the world and the characters that surround us. I would often have to financially support him as he could not hold down a job, but when he worked he would excel beyond all others in his work. He would often sleep in bushes or in the woods to avoid association with the world. Yet, he would walk into a literally barren kitchen and whip up a feast as if he was a master chef at a six-star-restaurant. Talent was not his lack; he was charismatic, convincing, and when he worked he was a great salesman and a great preacher. He just did not like this world or the “characters in it” and always just wanted to go home. Back in the early seventies, I saw that on his California driver’s license he had changed his legal name to Rod Kund and often spoke of disassociating himself completely from this world until his time would come. His favorite song from his childhood, which he claimed plagued him by his disapproval from others since he was a young child, was “Please Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood” from the sixties. He told me on many occasions that as far back as he could remember he felt misunderstood in this world and that always drove him to separate himself completely from the norm. Not able to fit in, he always had a difficult time with basic survival and this would, in turn, exacerbate and aggravate his criticism and disapproval from others. But then he moved to Vrndavan seven or eight years ago and began telling pastimes of Krsna to everyone he met in his own graceless Rod Kund manner. He would not stop. It became an obsession of sorts almost to the point of annoyance because one could hardly hold a conversation with him. I knew then he had found his place and would finally receive the grace from the Lord, which he had lived so long and awkward a life to wait for. I feel very fortunate to have known him, and cared for him from time to time, and to have been at least instrumental in giving him shelter even to his passing. I will miss you my old friend, my life would not have been so joyous without you. I have many memories of laughter and good times, and of you making so many others smile and laugh and still giving all the credit of your charm to Srila Prabhupada and to Krsna. This was your special gift through thick and thin. With tears and joy I wish you farewell, my brother. All my love, Yadu

How wonderful to read the word of Sripad Radha Kund Prabhu!! I consider Radha Kund to be my uncle as he is a dear friend of my father's. How I wish I could recall specific pastimes of his, but at the moment, nothing remarkable comes to mind. What *is* remarkable is the nature of Radha Kund Prabhu. Whenever I had the fortune of his association, I was struck by his enthusiasm, genuine humility, and dedication to his Gurudev. He was utterly down-to-earth while maintaining Vaishnava ideals (simple living, high-thinking). I saw him only encouraging other devotees, and never frying. My prayer this day is to once more have the association of that great Vaishnava!!

I'd answer the question with a "yes". However, whether KC is counter-intuitive is another question. Intuition is not strictly-inborn. Perhaps we have a "default" intuition, but, intuition is and can be developed in a similar manner as are muscles. If we study mathematics, we will develop mathematical intuition. If we study KC, we will develop KC intuition. That said, while the science of KC is, indeed, very scientific, wouldn't you agree there is no requirement on the Lord to act according any science whatsoever?

Seventh Day Adventists, of whom there are over 14 million according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church interpret Christianity to support vegetarian views. From the passage bellow, you can see that so do the Mormons (we have a Mormon running for President at the moment), of whom there are about 13 million. Additionally, the Catholic (1.1 billion) and Orthodox (220-300 million) branches of Christianity obviously see vegetarianism as a virtue given the Lenten fast from meat (yes, fish on Fridays, and Catholics don't fast from meat for Lent anymore, but you get the idea). So, figuring 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, the Mormons and Adventists make up close to 1.3% and your math is way off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

Now, re-reading your quote, Anadi-ji, I am *most* certain that Goswami is *not* talking about me!! He mentions practicing Raganuga-Bhakti as an example to others. If there is one thing of which I'm certain, it's that I am no example for anyone. See, everything harmonized without having to send off a concerned e-mail to Gurudev!

Dear Anadi Prabhu, My last reply was written as you were posting the following, in which, Jiva Goswami certainly *seems* to be encouraging someone (is it me?) to engage in raganuga. Not being familiar with that scripture, I do not know the context--is the author speaking to a specific audience (like a fellow Goswami) or speaking generally? I recently saw mention of a book written by one of the Goswamis specifically for another. Do *I* have entrance into that book on my own? In any case, this perfectly illustrates my need for the guidance and instruction of my Gurudev. He is able to harmonize that which may perplex me. Gauranga!!

{Quotes ommitted} Thank you, Dear Anadi Prabhu, for providing those illustrative quotes. However, if you re-read my question, it is not answered in any of those quotes. The fact that they are distinct and awaken distinct bhava, is not relevant. That is not under question. I asked for scriptural verification from you that my Gurudev is somehow misleading me when instructing to faithfully follow the path of vidhi marg with the faith that, at a time of the Lord's sweet choosing, feelings of spontaneous devotion will arise in my heart. Your lovely quotes do not in any way contradict Gurudev.

Ah! If only we *could* go back to the original Hebrew text. How many times has it been copied, miscopied, edited, etc.? Vaishnavism teaches that, in this material world, even Divine teachings, over time will become corrupted, and that the Lord Himself will descend to set things straight. This is how the Vaishnavas view Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who appeared 500 or so years ago. Regardless of that, and regardless of the (US) legal definition of murder, *I* most certainly consider killing an innocent cow for food to be murder!!! I imagine there are many who would agree. That said, under the wider umbrella of "Hinduism", there is even accomodation for slaughter of animals. While it is said that Krishna will not accept offerings of meat, Goddess Durga (another aspect of the One God) *will* accept such offerings from her servants [though cow-slaughter is generally not accepted by any Hindu]. My Gurudev even once joked: If you must take whisky, at least offer it to Durga first. So, to the Vaishnava, God is all-accomodating and all-merciful (even when He is killing "demons"). Many of us who are familiar with various religious traditions (I went to a Catholic High School and sang in the choir) see in the Gaudiya Vaishnava conception the most profound expression of the Love and Mercy of the Lord. Hope this helps!! I'm off into the surreal world.

I'm confused here. Are you saying "this is blasphemy", or are you saying "yes, blaspheme, I say" as in "go ahead and blaspheme some more"?

The word "sin" is so loaded with guilt, etc., that I prefer not to use it. "Karma" is a better word. It refers to the spiritual extension of the basic law of physics that: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, no, it is not "sinful" for a carnivore to eat another animal, just as it is not sinful for *you* to do so. However, both the carnivore and *you* (who have neither the intestines, nor the teeth/jaw structure of a carnivore) *will* get a reaction for your actions. As for asking for proof of transmigration, let me again quote physics: energy can neither be created nor destroyed, merely transformed. So, if you grant the assumption that our essential nature is energetic, then, our essential nature is eternal. If you want proof beyond that, I ask you a question: can you prove that *you* exist? No. Ultimately, beneath any logical system or method, there are assumptions and/or faith. Since you're asking for proof, kindly provide evidence for your final assertion regarding Jesus and the Bible. Or are we to take that from you on faith? I know this may seem contradictory in light of the previous paragraph, but granted that there will always be underlying assumptions in any thesis and that we must have faith that evidence presented is indeed valid, we can still try to have a reasonable discussion here.

OK, let's look at this logically. Not included in these quotes (but included elsewhere in this thread?): I and my Father are one. So, if Jesus is one with his Father, and his father is the one, true God, and Krishna is another name for the one, true God (within Whom everything is contained and Who can take any Form He pleases), then, yes, "no man comes to the Father, but by me" also includes coming to the Father through Krishna. If the limitations of the Christians' vision prevents them from seeing that, that is *their* problem, is it not? How does it become a problem for the Vaishnava? Science has long searched for the Grand Unified Theory. God *is* the Grand Unified Theory. God is able to harmonize *everything*. In particular, the Vedic literature is so unbelievably rich with spiritual and scientific knowledge. One of my favorite examples is the depiction of Maha-Vishnu (who is non-different from the Father and Krishna) lying in the causal ocean sleeping. As He exhales, innumerrable universes issue from His Nose. As he inhales all of the manifest creation is destroyed. In science, this is called the Closed-System Big Bang theory, but, while scientists attribute creation to chance, the Vaishnava sees the hand of God in everything.

This begs the question: what is "Heaven"? According to Guru, this material world is but a small, dark corner of existence. Everything else is Heaven. One word for Heaven is Vaikuntha. "Vaikuntha" means "without limits". Without limits!!! So, Guru teaches that, if one faithfully follows the teachings of Jesus, upon death, one will attain the plane of Jesus and will associate with their Lord and fellow Christians. Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism there are many heavens. There is a heaven where one can worship God in a mood of awe and reverence. The *sweetest* Heaven, though (what use is there in talking of "higher" when that concept is relative), is said to be Goloka, where one can *play* with God eternally.

Without quoting the original thread, the answer to the question about killing to live is this: Yes, in order to maintain these material bodies, we must kill. Whether it is the microbes we inhale or the carrots we pull from the ground, there is predation. When we are acting as sense-enjoyers, we will accrue Karma (reaction) for every action we take. Guru teaches that, when we dedicate all our actions to the Lord, including preparing and offering foodstuffs to the Lord that are palatable to Him, that we do *not* accrue Karma--the Lord takes all Karma. That's a simple explanation. Do inquire further if that is unclear. As for the Bible supporting vegetarianism, that is clear in Genesis: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-29.htm Whichever translation you prefer, the meaning is abundantly clear. This was God's original instruction. If memory serves, it was not until after the Flood that God mentions anything about eating meat. Also interesting to note is that, in the Bible, life-spans consistently go *down* as time progresses. Coincidence? The fact is, Vaishnavas (Hare Krishnas) are *not* vegetarians. They are "Prasada-tarians". They only wish to eat foodstuffs that have been offered to Krishna, and Krishna is very clear about what he likes to be offered. Being a vegetarian is a natural step for a devotee of Krishna, but it is certainly not a requirement for chanting the Holy Names. In fact, to encourage Westerners to come and learn, my Guru's Guru's Guru had said that meat could be brought in from outside restaurants for guests who were accustomed to eating thusly. There's much more to say on other topics raised here. I hope to return when I have a moment. Dear Guest--kindly forgive my Godbrother's for their anger. No doubt, they are sensitive to having their faith assaulted (in however polite a manner). Gauranga!!! One last note: rather than try each religion for six months, why not look at the practitioners of each faith and then follow the faith that has the most happy, fulfilled, dedicated, honest and straightforward followers. Ultimately, as the Bible agrees, we need the Grace of God to make any advancement. By our own Works alone, we cannot be saved (yeah, I know, Christians disagree on this point).

Actually, I stole the idea from a T-Shirt. Each year at L.A. Ratha Yatra, there is a "Gurukula Reunion", and the shirt from two years ago had: Sat Chit Ananda on the front (with some symbols), and "Chit Happens" on the back. I try to steal from the best

No kidding about re-reading the words!! I read it like five times and then started making plans to have it tatooed on my back (or, maybe, just the condensed version: Chit Happens). Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur ki jai!!!!

Yes, Anadi Prabhu, the verse is very clear. It states that one must hear with *faith*. Do *you* have the requisite faith???? Does everybody who cares to hear have that faith??? And how does one acquire faith? By dutifully following the instructions of Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order in my not-so-humble opinion), we will become purified, and we will get the Grace of Mahaprabhu. I don't know where you get this obsession with reading, Prabhu, but, is reading one of the limbs of devotion? No!!!! Sravanam, Kirtanam, Vishnu-Smaranam...NOWHERE IS READING MENTIONED!!! Sravanam is *hearing*. We hear the scriptures from the mouth, or under the guidance of the pure Sadhu. Reading it alone will lead to all sorts of misunderstandings (as you know from first-hand experience ). There is no requirement for reading. The illiterate street-sweeper that has got the seed of devotion and waters that seed dutifully is far more advanced than the faithless person who can recite Mahabharat from memory. We must read in the scripture (contrary to what our Guru has ordered) about the pastimes of the Gopis? Just how pitifully weak is your faith, Dear Sir (is it as weak as mine?)? Do you think the Lord cannot speak directly to the hearts of his sincere servants? Laughable!!! Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!! Please forgive me if I have offended you, but I feel rather charged by your comments.

Surely, I am not alone in appreciating the profound irony that, in order to practice spontaneous devotion (raganuga bhakti), one must have a special, formal, non-spontaneous initiation? That's hillarious!!! Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?<o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was the son of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. The Guru *is* the Shastra, Prabhu!! Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order, I would say). Without Guru, we have no entrance into shastra. If Guru tells me something that appears to contradict shastra, I go with Guru.

Ooops! Posted in error...removed.

Bija-ji!! Your entire post is beautiful music (though I quote just the last paragraph). You have clarified and expanded my (meager) understanding in such a graceful manner. When I was out running at lunch-time, I was thinking about this topic. The incident of the Mohini incarnation of the Lord came to mind. If the Supreme Lord is playing tricks on Lord Shiva (Lord Brahma as well), causing him to become bewildered and maddened, what tricks is that Blue Rascal playing on us? Could not the Lord be using U.G. as His puppet, to further demolish stubborn pockets of false ego? Your point about religious dogma is well-taken. After all, what is the heart of Bhagavad-Gita but "Sarva-Dharman..."--renounce all religion and surrender to the Lord? Govinda!!

Grand-Disciple. Thanks for reminding me of just how fortunate I am!! As I like to say: we all get the Guru we deserve You're absolutely right here. Despite my own natural curiosity, I have been advised to be cautious in regards to with which *Vaishnavas* I associate, let alone non-Vaishnavas. However, in this forum, as in the "real world" (and, especially here in Santa Cruz), the community is not homogenous. There are seekers of various faiths. I humbly beg my Godbrothers and Godsisters to be sensitive to that fact. I share your prayer!! While we must be cautious while our devotional creeper is young and fragile, it is also said that, for the realized soul, all is seen to be the will of the Lord. We may not have that vision, but let us hang on to the faith that, by the Lord's inconceivable mercy, so many seeming contradictions can be harmonized.

Here's what I'm really trying to get across here: It's easy to be dismissive. It was easy for UG to dismiss all spiritual teachers (for whatever reason--I can see a didactic purpose for this approach). It's easy for us to dismiss him as being in gross illusion. In another discussion on the forum, Y.K. presented his impression of "HK" Gaudiya Vaishnavas as being arrogant and offensive to other spiritual beliefs. While I argued that, in the advanced Vaishnava we don't see this mood, I can certainly realate to his experience from my own. Srila Prabhupad introduced the mercy of Mahaprabhu to the West. How many seekers will we attract to the mercy if we are rude and arrogant? How many will wish to become rude and arrogant like ourselves? If, in our distribution, we find ourselves running out of ways to praise Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, and have to resort to attacking the faith of others, then, perhaps, isn't it time for us to go get more nourishment from the processes of devotion?

Looks like you were replying to me as I was replying to myself. My reply to myself addresses some of what is here, but, kindly allow me to add a few words. I did see that bit about his rejection of the notion of the soul. What follows that is the important point, though, "our search for permanence [is] the cause of our suffering". While I find the concept (I say concept because my faith is very weak) of an eternal soul to be comforting, but, I can also see how belief in an eternal soul can be debilitating. As a natural-born procrastinator, I could easily say--well, I've got all these lifetimes to get things right, I'll just spend this one trying to enjoy my senses. Without getting into a point-by-point philosophical debate, who are we to say that UG was not an avadhut? For the avadhut, none of the conventions apply. Gaudiya Vaishnava conception embraces that the teachings of the Buddha, while at odds (at least on the surface) with Vaishnava theology has it's place (as you point out) given time, place and circumstances. That is somewhat contrary to your assertion that the fundamental principles remain the same. Sounds like you're very well situated, then. I pray to be so situated! I did, thanks. On the surface, what you say is true. I'm hoping (perhaps in futility) to capture the mood of my Param-Gurudev that "every wave is favorable". Still, as we progress in the initial stages of Bhakti, some discrimination is advised. Gauranga!