Murali_Mohan_das

Alex, you maintain a veneer of politeness in your postings, but doesn't sincere dialog require at least acknowledgement of questions asked of one, an answer, or at least an admission that one does not know the answer?

I do hope you will answer stonehearted's question (it looks like you have not replied since he posed it) as well as mine regarding whose example we are better advised to follow, that of Srila Prabhupada and Sriman Mahaprabhu, or that of Lord Brahma (which you have clearly ignored).

Also, while I understand you very much appreciate a certain book, is it not rude to, in conversation, post lengthy quotes rather than addressing questions and challenges posed by using your own synthesis of what you've read?

Wasn't it *you* who, early on in the discussion, made some sanctimonious statement regarding parroting plattitudes? Isn't that exactly what you do by posting large excerpts from the work of someone else without explaining exactly how the quote is cogent?

Also, you misinterpret me when I say your position is tenuous. While English may not be your first language, you seem rather proficient at expressing yourself in it. Writing, to my knowledge, cannot be tenuous. Rather, I claim your *position* of accepting the vani of Srila Prabhupada as a substitute for the vapuh of a pure devotee is a tenuous and dangerous one. I hope you understand the distinction.

Who's your guru?

http://www.scsmath.com

Look in the upper left-hand corner (among other places).

While he has accepted me as his disciple, I don't feel comfortable calling him "my guru", though. I don't have even the smallest fraction of his good qualities, nor do I follow his teachings very faithfully. I simply have some small appreciation for his humility and sincerity.

Sripad Janardana Maharaja speaks, as he often does, in praise of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, and his own initiating spiritual master, Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, offering reminiscences of their mercy.

Also, Maharaja stresses the immeasurable value of practical devotional service, even at the expense of book-reading, saying that, to forge a service connection is part of our spiritual "coming of age".

Embedded:

<embed style="width: 400px; height: 326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=153704556366617335&hl=en" flashvars="">

Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=153704556366617335&hl=en

Couldn't be more sanctimonious.

Also, if you've seen some of my comments which were deleted by the moderators, you'd know that I *can* certainly be a lot more sanctimonious.

I appreciate Vikram's "sanity check". I am filled with self-doubt, though, for the sake of discussion, I might try to assume an authoritative tone. It's nice to know I'm not *completely* crazy.

While Vikram cannot claim to speak for the entire membership of the forum, he obviously feels strongly enough to comment. If others feel strongly enough that his comment does not represent their views, they too, of course, are free to comment.

It must be lonely where you are.

Speaking of ...Speaking on the behalf of. Who authorized you to speak on the behalf of the whole forum? That is a political strategy that isn't very persuasive. I haven't even tried to push gurus on anybody. I haven't sampled statistics on how much he quotes from whom.

He certainly hasn't proselytized on Prabhupada's behalf as much as others Math gurus. It's more the sanctimonious tone he has taken in the past as though he had it 'made in the shade'. Of course he's not the only one.

Noting this hardly makes me a fanatic. You can't so easily turn the tables on that one. I always make a conscious effort to be reasonable and objective and not use the standard attacks - you don't agree therefore you are offensive- or you are offensive therefore you don't agree...and all the permutations on this 'win all arguments' ad hominem.

As Saint Bob Dylan said: You're going to have to serve *somebody*.

Why simply serve your own mind?

That's exactly my point. Lord your guru over others as proof of your superiority. Couldn't be more sanctimonious. Especially if somebody doesn't even have an official guru.

Video and audio from last night's program coming soon. Here's the audio from last week's Sunday Feast. Follow the link to eSnips (More Info) for download.

Higher Quality:

<table bgcolor="#000000" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td><embed quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" bgcolor="#000" width="328" height="94" src="http://res0.esnips.com/escentral/images/widgets/flash/esnips_player.swf" flashvars="theTheme=blue&autoPlay=no&theFile=http://www.esnips.com//nsdoc/0f3ff70c-dec6-4b2d-9c0a-e650117b1cd5&theName=Sunday Feast - Sripad Janardan Maharaja - December 16, 2007 - High Quality&thePlayerURL=http://res0.esnips.com/escentral/images/widgets/flash/mp3WidgetPlayer.swf"></embed></td></tr><tr><td><table cellpadding="2" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; padding-left:2px; color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none ; ; font-size:10px; font-weight:bold"><tr><td><a style="color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none " href="http://www.esnips.com/CreateWidgetAction.ns?type=0&objectid=0f3ff70c-dec6-4b2d-9c0a-e650117b1cd5"> Get this widget </a></td><td style="font-size:7px; font-weight:normal;">|</td><td align="center"><a align="center" style="color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none " href="http://www.esnips.com/doc/0f3ff70c-dec6-4b2d-9c0a-e650117b1cd5/Sunday-Feast---Sripad-Janardan-Maharaja---December-16,-2007---High-Quality/?widget=flash_player_esnips_blue"> Track details </a></td><td style="font-size:7px; font-weight:normal;">|</td><td><a align="center" style="color:#FF6600; text-decoration:none" href="http://www.esnips.com//adserver/?action=visit&cid=player_dna&url=/socialdna"> eSnips Social DNA </a></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

Standard Quality:

<table bgcolor="#000000" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td><embed quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" bgcolor="#000" width="328" height="94" src="http://res0.esnips.com/escentral/images/widgets/flash/esnips_player.swf" flashvars="theTheme=blue&autoPlay=no&theFile=http://www.esnips.com//nsdoc/6232d149-c239-4f49-9a12-ebb49902f141&theName=Sunday Feast - Sripad Janardan Maharaja - December 16, 2007&thePlayerURL=http://res0.esnips.com/escentral/images/widgets/flash/mp3WidgetPlayer.swf"></embed></td></tr><tr><td><table cellpadding="2" style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; padding-left:2px; color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none ; ; font-size:10px; font-weight:bold"><tr><td><a style="color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none " href="http://www.esnips.com/CreateWidgetAction.ns?type=0&objectid=6232d149-c239-4f49-9a12-ebb49902f141"> Get this widget </a></td><td style="font-size:7px; font-weight:normal;">|</td><td align="center"><a align="center" style="color:#FFFFFF; text-decoration:none " href="http://www.esnips.com/doc/6232d149-c239-4f49-9a12-ebb49902f141/Sunday-Feast---Sripad-Janardan-Maharaja---December-16,-2007/?widget=flash_player_esnips_blue"> Track details </a></td><td style="font-size:7px; font-weight:normal;">|</td><td><a align="center" style="color:#FF6600; text-decoration:none" href="http://www.esnips.com//adserver/?action=visit&cid=player_dna&url=/socialdna"> eSnips Social DNA </a></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

Of course you're not going to accuse yourself of that. But you lord over your belief that you have the direct absolute knowledge and by implication anybody who doesn't accept this guru of yours is ignorant.

It's not just your attitude. It's the attitude of most proselytizing disciples.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't feel that way.

I have stated a number of times that we each get the guru we deserve (or better, given the mercy of the Lord).

One of my best friends was poised to take initiation from an ISCKON sannyasi who was popular in L.A. in the late 90's when that Maharaja "fell down". While I felt sorry for that sannyasi and his disciples, and for my friend, I wished none of them ill.

Rather, I find it enlivening to see that former sannyasi at San Francisco Ratha Yatra every year in his jeans and (fake?) leather happily engaging in Hari Nama sankirttan.

What I find lamentable and somewhat infuriating is when *you* complain that there are no qualified gurus and then stubbornly refuse to at least take darshan of a person in whom so many of Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples have found nourishment and shelter--someone who displays no envy towards Srila Prabhupada or his disciples, but, rather, who praises the inconceivable spiritual achievements of Srila Prabhupada at every opportunity.

I thought they were already available for download, but here are Mahaksa Prabhu's lovely recordings of devotional songs and kirtanas:

http://www.esnips.com/web/MahaksadasaAudioRecordings

eSnips recently changed their policy regarding downloading. Formerly, those with an eSnips account (free and easy to create) could download any track from any other member. Now, each track must be explicitly authorized for download by the member. I just enabled downloading for these recordings. I think non-members can now download as well (though I'm not certain).

Enjoy!! Mele Kalikimaka!!!

I was listening to these tracks last night as the kids and I drove to (and back from) the Ashram under the (almost) full moon. After a busy weekend of doing chores, I was in the right mindset (though sober) to appreciate their ethereal, mystical beauty.

I see you as a humble and sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada, Mahaksa-ji, whatever the "official" roster might or might not say.

Not that my "endorsement" is worth anything. Not that my vision is perfect. Rather, I feel fortunate to have your virtual association.

I sing the glories of all my gurus, they ARE the repository of all truth. What I say is perfect if I speak on their behalf, errors are my own.

 

The humble endorsement of prospective disciples glorifying their gurus is the basis of this movement. It is the humble words of DISCIPLES that constitute the Parampara, called by my spiritual master a DISCIPLIC succession.

 

Had I not had the benefit of such endorsement by disciples toward their masters, be it Lord Jesus, Prabhupada, et al, I would surely remain less advanced, less knowledgable, less qualified, etc.

 

We spend our lives seeking out the association of masters, yet the vaisnava always advizes that we seek out the servants. Masters have no access to God, but servants live with him in intimate relationship always.

 

nuff said. hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Without that absolute endorsement others are less advanced , less knowledgeable, less qualified...etc.

Can you point out where I said that? One thing which I do not appreciate having words put into my mouth.

It's funny, but, when I saw this title, I assumed it had to do with Sri Guru "downloading" Mahamantra into our hearts, or something mystical like that.

Happy downloading!

Thanks for tips. I might give it a try. My musical quest in the past few years has been a quest for simplicity.

Rock-stead-easy!!

and no more than just two. Remember, if its hard to play, its hard to listen to. (sorry, my jabb on jazz) I like D and A, one chord per line. Then, save the complex riffs for the lead within the structure of di ryddum.

 

Singing style? Watch the sunrise services of Yellowman I posted on you tube faves. All words come very fast, but when we chant "Purrosatam, Baladeva, Subhadra," very slow, very electric, lotsa floydian feedback.

 

But this song can go anyway. Maybe even "alanis Morrisette" stylee. Just not jazz.:eek4:

 

Have fun, maybe Ill send a recording, but since this song is so old, Ill have to dig deeper in my secret stash.

 

mahaksadasa

Who are we in relation to Sri Vyasdev? Are we so confident in ourselves as to try to follow *his* example?

I said "Sri Vyasdev" in error. It was Lord Brahma mentioned in the quote from Dhira Govinda Swami.

The basic point remains the same.

To speak of "PL models" indicates mental speculation and a failure to fully appreciate the exhortations of Srila Saraswati Prabhupada.

Krishna Consciousness does not entail dry mental speculation, empiric evidence, or modeling of reality. It consists of Reality the Beautiful.

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

 

Thank you very much for reading my posts, and thank you for sharing the excerpt from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, from a 1931 issue of the Harmonist. I read the excerpt with interest. I appreciate the points that you bring up.

 

With respect to the quotes from Srila Prabhupada, relating to "presence", vapu and vani, it seems to me that in addition to addressing specific situations relating to specific people, Srila Prabhupada makes statements about general principles. Though I remain open to the possibility that these quotes from Srila Prabhupada, which I shared, might be relevant only to those people who were serving his mission before November 14^th, 1977, I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that this is the full meaning of the quotes.

 

With respect to the acaryas Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, and how the Prominent Link model might relate to them, I'd like to share an excerpt from the book Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link, which I feel is interesting in relation to this topic.

 

I thank you for reading.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

 

Çréla Prabhupäda is not physically present and the PL model claims that he can be the direct link to the paramparä. Would it be acceptable, then, if a devotee accepted Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura as the direct link to the paramparä?

<u1>

</u1>In the verse yasya deve parä bhaktir yathä deve tathä gurau tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù prakäçante mahätmanaù, Çré Kåñëa specifies a two-center system, with the Lord as one center and the spiritual master as the other center. The spiritual master center must be the current link to the paramparä. We maintain that Çréla Prabhupäda is the current link and suggest that he can remain in that role for the duration of his movement. As described at the end of the Scenarios section, Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers know Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura and the other personalities who constitute the paramparä primarily through Çréla Prabhupäda. Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers, however, notwithstanding when they joined his movement, are expected and encouraged to develop a primarily direct relationship with Çréla Prabhupäda. This direct relationship is naturally enhanced by the guidance and realizations provided by Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers.<u1></u1><u2></u2><o></o>

 

All members of Çréla Prabhupäda’s movement do have direct relationships with Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, Çréla Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and other transcendental personalities. These relationships, however, are not primarily direct, but are primarily through Srila Prabhupada. <u1></u1>

“Direct, current, and primary link to the paramparä" is defined as the Vaiñëava through whom Çré Kåñëa is giving the most direct transcendental knowledge. For many devotees, regardless of who performed the initiation ceremony, Çréla Prabhupäda fulfills the definition of direct, current and primary link. It is important for the institution to acknowledge that Çréla Prabhupäda is playing this role, and will continue to play it for many, perhaps even most, members of his movement, for the lifetime of his movement. <u1></u1>

What if someone claims "By the definition given above, the direct link for me is Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé [or Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu, or Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura]"? The view of the PL model is that if someone did originally connect with the saìkértana movement through the books of Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura or Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé, then Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura or Srila Rupa Goswami would arrange to connect that person to Çréla Prabhupäda, because Çréla Prabhupäda is the current link for the present time. Still, we are open to hear and observe the experiences of others, and adjust our perspective accordingly. If someone claims to be directly connected with someone other than Çréla Prabhupäda, in the primary sense as enunciated in PL, we recognize that possibility, though we are cautious about accepting such claims.<u1></u1>

 

Çréla Prabhupäda’s organization is for those who are directly connected with the paramparä through Çréla Prabhupäda. Someone may be primarily linked to the paramparä through someone else, and that is appreciated. However, that linkage is not necessarily part of Çréla Prabhupäda’s institution. For example, if someone is in the line of the Çré-sampradäya, Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers honor that, while recognizing that it’s not in Çréla Prabhupäda’s line.

kula tells it like it is.

soooo heavy.

but the truth is the truth!

You can say that again!

I'm sorry, but tape recorders can capture the words, but not the essence or the potency. There's something about being in the presence (physical or otherwise) of the pure souls to which nothing else can compare.

You may see me differently from how I experience myself. I'm not looking to convince you. I do want to express and assert my experience and understanding. I don't want to shut up, or withdraw, simply because you see things differently from how I see them.

The last thing I wish to do is shut you up or drive you away. Rather, the more you write, the more dangerous and tenuous you reveal your position to be. So, please, for the edification of all, continue as the Spririt moves you.

I experience Srila Prabhupada as being present in my life. I'm interested in sharing about this experience with others. Others may or may not be interested in reading what I want to share. Still, I feel benefit from honestly sharing it on this forum.

I experience Srila Prabhupada as being present in my life as well, both through the lingering effects of the cookie Prasadam which I received from his hands as well as in the person of Srila Gurudev, who arguably had more of his direct association than any of Srila Prabhupada's Western (or Eastern) disciples.

As you feel moved to share from that which you have received by Srila Prabhupada's grace, so do I. None of us can claim to have a monopoly on the mercy of Sri Guru.

In connection with this theme of presence, there's an excerpt from an article by Dhira Govinda Prabhu, that I would like to include below. You may or may not find it interesting. You may or may not connect with it. Still, I'd like to share it at the end of this post.

That's an interesting quote. I cannot quarrel with what it expresses. Rather, let's put it into context.

Who are we in relation to Sri Vyasdev? Are we so confident in ourselves as to try to follow *his* example?

Param Gurudev, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, reminds us again and again that, by the Will of the Lord, *anything* is possible. Anything at all. We can rule out nothing.

Still, what was the example set by Sriman Mahaprabhu, the Lord appearing as His Devotee? Did even *He* follow the path of Sri Vyasdev, or did He sit humbly at the feet of His Guru and (as Mahaksa Prabhu reminds us) *dance* in transcendental ecstasy with His Guru Maharaja?

Are we better than Sriman Mahaprabhu to think that we can work things out for ourselves with a map in hand, or are we better advised to follow a guide who we can see (however imperfectly) with our own eyes?

Of course, the choice is ours. Choose wisely.

He made his definition of bona fide quite clear in many of his purports. The certainty doesn't require speculation. Read up.

...and, what makes a Guru genuine if it is not his/her implicit faith in Sri Krishna?

You seem unwilling to accept that faith is the lynchpin in all of this. You seem to hanker for empiric evidence and dry reason much the same as the atheists with whom I discuss similar matters on another site.

What makes Guru genuine is not his/her book learning, the hoops through which he/she has jumped, or any other mundane consideration.

What makes Guru genuine is the unshakeability of his/her faith. To that extent, *all* of the definitions of "bona fide" apply, not just number 3.

Ooh! I like this very much. I might just have to cover it (with your blessing, of course).

Got chords for it?

Thank you, Mahaksa Prabhu, for seeing (and thereby strengthening) the small speck of good in me and not dwelling on my numerous and glaring flaws.

You are truly a swan among geese.

haribol. If it is innocent, then you are innocent. My basic point is that srila prabhupada initia;lly initiated us all by saying "Chant hare krsna and your life will be siblime." Perhaps when I read from those who dont seem to have basic joy in the process, well, maybe they did not take the gift.

 

I, too, have no need for fanaticism, if this is what you are speaking of. Fanaticism is evident when folks spout off stuuff that they have yet to realize, then it comes off very weird, very shallow, and in this, Im totally in agreement with you. I did not get that vibe from our friend you were responding to, so this is where my post may read strange to some. Sorry if my post offended, as said, if innocent, innocent it is. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

You see that for which you seek.

When have I ever called myself a devotee? Or were you referring to someone else?

I'm not insulted, but I detect your usual patronizing tone - because you got the guru and a monopoly on truth. The typical attitude.

I thought Christians had the attitude - dogmatic - aggressively proselytizing- until I met those who call themselves devotees.

I'm glad you're so certain of Srila Prabhupada's intention. Why not accept disciples?

Merry Krishna!

Main Entry: bo·na fide

Pronunciation: <tt minmax_bound="true">'bO-n&-"fId, 'bä-n&-; "bO-n&-'fI-dE, -'fI-d&</tt>

Function: adjective

Etymology: Latin, in good faith

1 a : characterized by good faith and lack of fraud or deceit bona fide offer> b : valid under or in compliance with the law <retirement>bona fide employee benefit plan>

 

2 : made with or characterized by sincerity </retirement>3 : being real or genuine <bona fide residents>

 

The most important meaning of 'bona fide', the one defined by Prabhupada is in the third meaning - real or genuine.

He specifies the requirements - not simply sincere - but pure -uttama adhikari

<!-- google_ad_section_end(name=def) -->

 

You have a loyalty to your guru. I have to mine. Jesus has never steered me wrong and many of his disciples have the same core realization of Vaisnava siddhanta - that we are all children of God.

My comment was meant as a compliment, not an insult. I'm sorry if you're offended.

I find no fault in your returning to your Christian roots. My roots happen to be Gaudiya Vaishnava. That was my good fortune.

I also had the good fortune to attend a Catholic High school and sing in the choir there. I attended every Mass at which the choir sang. I was moved by the devotion of the Marist Brothers who taught me.

Though I was never baptized, I consider myself a Christian (or, rather, an aspiring Christian, just as I consider myself an aspiring Vaishnava).

Merry Christmas!

Thanks for the reminder, Mahaksa-ji!!

there is no fault. Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of krsna. It may nopt be perfect, but if Srimati Tulasi devi grows on the premises, then Krsna can be understood to be present. If the chanting of the holy names takes place on their properties, we must see that as faultless.

 

All life is hard, happiness comes from lightening up, becoming aloof, wishins others well, etc. hARE Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

"Bona fide" means, simply "good faith". It does not mean "Divinely ordained", or even "infallible".

So, whose "good faith" are we talking about? Is it the guru acting in good faith, or is it the disciple's good faith inquiry? Or is it both?

Another thing which the "Swami Jesus Prabhupada" folks conveniently ignore is: not only does the disciple need to accept the spiritual master, but the spiritual master must ACCEPT THE DISCIPLE.

As merciful as Srila Prabhupada is, how do *know* that he is accepting you as his disciple???

A bona fide guru is rare. That is somebody who has transcended material nature. Just one such guru is enough to lead us. Why this mandate to proliferate?