bija

Today where I live we had a major power blackout for over six hours. 50,000 people were without power. The reaction was very significant, as it was expected that we may have been without electricity for up to two days.

My neighbour, who sits and listens to the radio most days, approached me quite distressed. He said, "what are we going to do, this is awful, it is stressing me out alot?"

I asked what the difficulty was and he said it was 'the silence'. That he did not realize before, the amount of noise going on in his head. I am sure there must have been many ditressed people in town. Fortunately emergency workers got things going tonight. But it was such a surreal experience.

During the day I followed my usual routine of japa and reading Caitanya Bhagavata, with the mind caught up in the nectar of Krsna consciousness. At peace.

But for the sake of everything running smoothly we are all glad things are back to normal.

Theist, these verses you posted are very wonderful. The gradual awakening of such knowledge is sublime. Even more wonderful is that scripture states love of God when tasted makes liberation very insignificant.

Dear Guest, thank you for your enlighteneing post. These words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja are very appreciated.

I do try to understand the person who said it, that she or he was speaking within a certain context. On a thread on this site was pointed out that there is something called a "relative truth" spoken by Sri Guru. Perhaps such a sweeping statement by ACBSP is an example of a "relative truth". quote by guest

Yes. I wish I was more scholarly to back your statement with scriptural clarification, but unfortunately I am not. To see Guru deeply and fully must be a wonderful treasure I am sure. All harmony can be found in the pure devotee's example, but we need the qualification to see this harmony and understand.

Humbly I ask the devotees, to forgive me if my forthrightness and outspoken mood, has caused offence to anyone's heart. Zeal for the purity of Caitanya's message has led me astray.

Thank you guest. There is a time to speak out in a renunciative sense in spiritual teaching and preaching. And this is an approach Srila Prabhupada often took. But yes, spiritual life is a positive existence, so how much more did he guide his followers in divine positive wonderful truths. Who would not want to hear such nectar!

Who would not want to be qualified for such a thing! To have spiritual ears to hear and understand! Srila Prabhupada's practicality is exemplerary, and his patience with the audience must have been great. It all comes down to the audience really, in regards to connecting with the essence of the divine teachers words. Blessings to you!

I am going to stick my neck out here and attempt to take us on a tangent. A scripture penned from the seventh gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura and translated by my dearest teacher and guide. A scripture glorifying Gauranga Mahaprabhu and His Holy Name. As Thakura says...our only hope. These few verses have radically changed my life, and opened my eyes to truth. May the kali-yuga avatara, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, be glorified in every town and village. His glory is the great secret of secrets!

I feel like you Guest, in some ways, in reference for your desires for peace and happiness. I have found a way and path to peace; so I humbly thank you now for letting me share. Please take the time to read the following verses.

Shri Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya

Parikrama Khanda

Prathama Adhyaaya - Chapter 1

Saadhaarana mahaatmya

Introductory Glories of Shri Navadvipa Dhama

 

By His Divine Grace Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

sukha-laagi sarva jiva naanaa yukti kare

tarka kare, yoga kare, samsaara-bhitare..29

 

"Each and every soul is constantly striving and devising multitudinous plans to achieve happiness in this world which is the ultimate goal of all endeavors of all kinds of people. Some people are whimsically speculating and some people are fruitlessly performing yoga in this world for happiness."

 

sukha-laagi samsaara chaadiyaa vane yaaya

sukha-laagi yuddha kare rajaaya rajaaya..30

 

"Some people become frustrated with material enjoyment and go to the forest for trying to attain happiness. Kings or enemies start fighting with each other for becoming happy."

 

sukha-laagi kaamini-kanaka paache dhaya

sukha-laagi shilpa aara vigyaana chalaaya..31

 

"Many run after money and sex for some flickering happiness and others engage in scientific or sculpturing professions in the hope of becoming happy."

 

sukha-laagi sukha chaade klesha shiksha kare

sukha-lagi arnava madhyete dube mare..32

 

"In their blind pursuit of so-called material happiness, people give up the eternal spiritual happiness of the soul. People sink and drown in the deep and dangerous ocean of material sense-enjoyment in their quest for happiness."

 

nityaananda bale daaki du haate tuliyaa

esa jiva karma-gyaana-sankata chaadiya..33

 

"Lord Nityananda calls out and beseeches all the souls while raising both His lotus hands in the air, 'Come to Me, My dear souls, giving up the perils of fruitive activities (karma) and speculative knowledge (gyaana).'"

 

sukha-laagi ceshtaa tava, aami taahaa diba

taara vinimaye aami kichu na laiba..34

 

"I will give you the most superior eternal happiness which is what you are actually seeking for within the heart of your hearts. And in exchange for this great benediction which I will give you, I will not take anythng in return."

 

kashta naahi vyaya naai naa paabe yaatanaa

shri gauraanga bali naache naahika bhaavanaa..35

 

"You will not have to undergo any tribulation and misery nor will you need to waste any time, energy or money. You will simply have to dance while chanting the Holy Name of Lord Gauranga and become absorbed in the divine trance of love for Lord Gauranga."

 

je sukha aami ta diba taara naai sama

sarvadaa vimalaananda naahi taara bhrama..36

 

"Lord Nityananda continued, 'Nothing is comparable to this matchless divine happiness which I will award you. It is the supremely pure absolute happiness increasing at every moment and is totally free from the contamination of illusion."

 

ei rupe prema yaache nityaananda raya

abhaagaa karama doshe taaha naahi chaaya..37

 

"In this way Lord Nityananda Raya solicits the pure love for Lord Gauranga to each and every conditioned soul but the ill-fated conditioned soul does not even desire to accept it due to it's enslavement with karmic reactions and material desires and a lack of pious deeds."

 

gauraanga nitaai jei bale eka baara

ananta karama dosha anta haya taara..38

 

"That most fortunate soul who chants or hears the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga just once, instantly destroys unlimited inauspicious and sinful karmic reactions from the past countless number of lives."

 

aara eka gudha kathaa suna sarva-jana

kali-jive yogya-vastu gaura-lilaa-dhana..39

 

"O all people of this world, please hear another very confidential secret. The most appropriate and competent means for the deliverance of all souls in Kali Yuga is the supreme treasure of the transcendental pastimes of Lord Gauranga.

 

gaurahari raadhaa-krishna-rupe vrindaavane

nitya-kaala vilaasa karaye sakhi-sane..40

 

"It is Lord Gaurahari Himself Who sports in His divinely playful pastimes at every moment in His supremely divine forms of Lord Krishna and Shrimati Radha along with Their Gopi expansions."

 

shaastrete jaanila jiva vraja-lilaa-tattva

raadhaa-krishna-nitya-lilaa vrajera mahatva..41

 

"The conditioned souls can know the great glories and importance of the supreme nitya-lila (eternal) pastimes of Shri Shri Radha Krishna and Their matchless Holy Abode of Shri Vrindavana Dhama from the revealed Vedic scriptures."

 

krishna-naama krishna-dhaama-mahaatmya apaara

shaastrera dvaaraaya jaane sakala samsaara..42

 

"The spiritual glories and importance of the Holy Name, Pastimes and Abode of the Supreme Lord Krishna are known and easily accessible to the whole humanity through the revealed Vedic scriptures."

 

tabu krishna-prema saadhaarane

naahi paaya

ihaara kaarana kiba chintaha hiyaaya..47

 

"Even though Lord Krishna's glories and pastimes are known so openly and widely in this world, pure love for Lord Krishna, which is goal of all human endeavors, remains allusive and unobtainable to the general mass of the people."

 

ihaate aache ta eka gudha-tattva saara

maayaa-mugdha jiva taahaa naa kare vichaara..48

 

"This mystery of the greatest question and dilemma in the human form of life is not thought about by the souls bewildered by Maya, the illusory energy of the Lord.

 

bahu janma krishna bhaji prema naahi haya

aparaadha-punja taara aachaya nischaya..49

 

"If one does not achieve pure love of God after worshiping Lord Krishna and chanting His Holy Names for many lives, one should understand that one has certainly mountains of offenses in one's heart."

 

aparaadha-shunya haye laya krishna-naama

tabe jiva krishna-prema labhe aviraama..50

 

"If and only if one chants the Holy Names of Lord Krishna by becoming totally devoid of all offenses against the Holy Names. Deity and Abodes, then that soul will be able to attain the pure love for Lord Krishna without any interruption."

 

shri chaitanya avatare bada vilakshana

aparaadha-sattve jiva labhe prema-dhana..51

 

"The incarnation of Lord Gauranga is exceptionally opulent, powerful and influential among all forms of God. Even though Lord Krishna's Name considers offenses and does not give love to an offensive soul, Lord Gauranga's Name, Pastimes and Abodes do not consider offenses and award pure love of God to even the offensive souls. This unprecedented and unimaginable munificence of Lord Gauranga's incarnation is the only life-saving hope for the conditioned souls of Kali Yuga."

 

nitaai chaitanya bali jei jiva daake

suvimala krishna-prema anveshaya taake..52

 

"The most esoteric and purest love of Lord Krishna begins searching after that most auspicious soul who feelingly calls out the most benevolent Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga."

 

aparaadha baadhaa <st1:place w:st="on">tara</st1:place> kichu naahi kare

niramala krishna-preme taara ankhi jhare..53

 

"Even the formidable obstacles posed due to the offenses in one's heart are rendered ineffective by the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga and the eyes miraculously flow with the sublime tears of pristinely pure love for Lord Krishna when one chants the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga even though offenses are present in the heart."

 

svalpa kaale aparaadha aapani palaaya

hridaya shodhita haya prema baadhe taaya..54

 

"After granting the most confidential pure love for Lord Krishna to even the offensive chanter, the Holy Names of Nityananda and Gauranga make the offenses run away from the heart within a very short time. Then the heart becomes fully purified and the love increases even more."

 

kali-jivera aparaadha asankhya durvaara

gaura-naama vinaa taara naahika uddhaara..55

 

"The offenses and sins of the souls of Kali Yuga are unlimited and absolutely impossible to overcome. Thus, there is no other means of deliverance in Kali Yuga other than the exceptionally merciful Holy Name of Lord Gauranga."

 

ataeva gaura vinaa kalite upaaya

naa dekhi kothaa o aara shaastra phukaaraya..56

 

"Thus, it a firmly established and repeatedly stressed truth in all the Vedic scriptures that there is no other means of extrication from the cycle of birth and death other than the Holy Names, Pastimes, Abodes and Associates of Lord Gauranga."

 

 

 

 

So the main critique is: if Srila Prabhupada said so many things, why focus a thread on divisive speech: "[whoever] is abominable?" in this the post 911 era? Why not post something that Srila Prabhupada said that we can all learn from to have a more harmonious and more peaceful world? quote by guest

This is exactly the critique. Some of these postings over the last year quoting Srila Prabhupada from conversations can easily be taken out of context. Anti this, anti that...what fruit does it produce. More division, more bodily consciousness.

What are the motives of such posts. What are the motives of the posters. Srila Prabhupada was a liberated soul, most of us are not. So I feel we need to take sensitivities into account, and be responsible! The conditioned jiva is very cunning and very lost. The world has moved on since the 1930's and 1960's. Some things never change(transcendental), some things are in continual change(material). One thing for sure though is some real rubbish and war is going on at the moment. I am sure people with awakened sensitivies are feeling enough is enough. Jiva Jago! Jiva Jago! Awaken from slumber! Was the call of the great Gauranga Mahaprabhu! Awaken from slumber was the call of our dear Srila Prabhupada! Krsna...Krsna...was constantly on their tongue!

What are Srila Prabhupada's motives? Why this preaching style?

To convince the ignorant that the material glitter cannot bring lasting happiness. True happiness of an eternal nature can only be found in positive spiritual life in Krsna consciousness.

This west is winning or east is winning is not what Prabhupada's teaching is about. Krsna...Krsna...that is his point of directive.

Yes Ghari, I am with you on this one, Prabhupada is the perfect teacher. Why did he speak in some relative terms. Because he had to...he had to relate to the conditioned young boys and girls. Eventually to raise them up to see the transcendental reality.

On a personal level I am starting to appreciate Krsna consciousness so much I do not want it to fall into radical fundamentalism. East, West...this is all non-sense.

This thread was re-awakened after some dormancy by Kulapavana in his post number 5. So the question arises, what was his point and motive?

Please read Kulapavana's post no. 5 in this thread.

I think to show that times have changed somewhat. That things may be different than in Srila Prabhupada's time when he made these comments. You see He was in his seventies in the 1960's, and had never been to the west before this. He was a young man in the 1930's in India. But ofcourse, the message is still relevant.

It is so easy for us western based Hare Krsna's to be despondent about our own culture and see it as abominable. Maybe the reason why this thread was initially started, I don't know? Especially when we have the perfect ideal set up in front of us...vedic culture. I know sometimes such thoughts enter my mind! But those thoughts are on the mental platform, not spiritual.

But this is not blissful vision, not joyous spititual life. The intelligent cultivator of Krsna consciousness will be able to apply everything in blissful service of the Lord, even this western culture.

There are many advantages we have living here also. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, intenet technology, opulence for some(I am a pensioner who scrapes by each week, but still have an internet connection:)), the list goes on and on...try being a Hare Krsna in some less tolerant countries...I know where I would rather be. Living in the western world can be a conducive environment for cultivation if I choose to apply intelligence.

But saying this...it is difficult in many ways. But hey, it is kali yuga.

Anyway, east/west, the problem of materialism is everywhere. Times have changed. This is the material world, this is kali yuga, we are all in this boat together.

Lyrics by George Harrison from Living in the Material World album

Give me love

Give me love

Give me peace on earth

Give me light

Give me life

Keep me free from birth

Give me hope

Help me cope, with this heavy load

Trying to, touch and reach you with,

heart and soul

OM M M M M M M M M M M M M M

M M M My Lord . . .

PLEASE take hold of my hand, that

I might understand you

Won't you please

Oh won't you

Give me love

Give me love

Give me peace on earth

Give me light

Give me life

Keep me free from birth

Give me hope

Help me cope, with this heavy load

Trying to, touch and reach you with,

heart and soul

Why post such divisive things in this war-torn world? Why not post something that promotes harmony, peace, and good will between all hemispheres? quote by guest

It sure is crazy times we live in isn't it. So many wish to take extremeties as their angle of vision. Out of balance. We are called to rise above that platform.

Guest I am glad you have the wisdom to read Swamiji's words in a context of time, place and circumstance. If we do not penetrate the essence of words we end up with some fanatical world view it seems. So unproductive and destroying to the goodness of all peaceful faith.

In reality no-one is friend or foe. God is the well-wisher of all his parts and parcels. So yes I agree with you, why be divisive.....let's pray to God for his blessings so that we can raise ourselves to deeper spiritual vision.

Thanks for speaking out in your post.

one important point: Vedic government system was not really a theocracy. it was a monarchy. theocracy is in Iran for example, where religious clerics rule. that has nothing to do with the Vedic system. Quote Kulapavana

Were the kings in the vedic monarchy Ksatriyas and the Brahmanas advisors?

Could you please elaborate how the vedic government system is different than a theocracy? How much sway in decision making did the brahmanas really have?

The clerics in Iran seem to have much power.

I am glad you liked that excerpt Theist.

Quote by Theist. We need the grace of the Supreme Lord. All theists must learn to be beggars before Krsna (or their preferred name for God).

Everything is happening by the order of the Supreme Lord, and yes I feel also we are so much dependant upon grace. So this environment, this margin, is also the Lord's will.

When Srila Prabhupada started Iskcon, as far as my understanding goes, many people joined the ashrama environment. He created through this environment, a way people could live together and practice Krsna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada's purposes for Iskcon:

Item 3: To bring the members of the society together with each other and nearer to Krsna, the prime entity, thus developing the idea within the members, and humanity at large, that each soul is part and parcel of the quality of Godhead(Krsna).

 

Item 6: To bring the members closer together for the purpose of teaching a simpler, more natural way of life.

 

I perceive (please correct me if I am wrong), that in the west, that living in the ashrama is not so common any more. In that as time has moved on, the grhastha lifestyle is more prominent and even encouraged by Iskcon.

So my question of interest is...how to apply Srila Prabhupada's teachings while living long distances away from a temple?

How to practice Krsna consciousness in a contemplative way, while living amongst this modern western society? (in my case as a grhastha/brahmacari).

As Srila Prabhupada has said..'everything is in my books'. How to live a contemplative life in this fast paced world? Your insights would be much appreciated Theist, and others.

Theist, I wish I could type all this 'talk' out, from a book in my library. It is copyrighted so I have only typed an excerpt of the lecture. I thought possibly you may enjoy this, so I have posted the opening paragraphs.

The contemplative today, seems to be on the margin of society, unlike in the ancient vedic culture, where the soul seeker had a place in societies structure.

Where is one to go for shelter, when he has lived material life in it's depths? Not saintly enough for the pious structure of institution, which seems to be selective with it's new candidates. But at the same time introspective and contemplative, seeking the true substance of this human form, in much need of a place of bhajana and quietness, away from the clamor of material life and it's expectations.

A voyager on the margin, a seeker who has realized that this (material) world is not his home.

Taken from an Informal talk delivered at Calcutta, October 1968 ( from 'The Asian journal of Thomas Merton')

First, let me struggle with the contradiction that I have to live with, in appearing before you in what I really consider to be a disguise, because I never, never wear this clerical collar. What I ordinarily wear is blue jeans and an open shirt; which brings me to the question that people have been asking me to a great extent: Whom do you represent? What religion do you represent? And that too, is a rather difficult question to answer. I came with the notion perhaps saying something for monks and to monks of all religions because I am supposed to be a monk...I may not look like one.

In speaking for monks I am really speaking for a very strange kind of person, a marginal person, because the monk in the modern world is no longer an established person with an established place in society. We realize very keenly in America today that the monk is essentially outside of all establishments. He does not belong to an establishment. He is a marginal person who withdraws deliberately to the margin of society with a view of deepening fundamental human experience. Consequently, as one of these strange people, I speak to you as a representative of all marginal persons who have done this kind of thing deliberately.

Thus I find myself representing perhaps hippies among you, poets, people of this kind who are seeking in all sorts of ways and have absolutely no established status whatever. So I ask you to do me this one favor of considering me not as a figure representing any institution, but as a statusless person, an insignificant person who comes to you asking your charity and patience while I say one or two things that have nothing to do with my prepared paper.....

"Our real journey in life is interior: it is a matter of growth, deepening, and of an ever greater surrender to the creative action of love and grace in our hearts...." quote by Thomas Merton (contemplative).

Samadhi: complete absorption.

I can remember years ago absorbing myself in music. Everything was related to music; books, records, t-shirts, conversation,friends and socializing, and even work was music. The outcome was a proficient band with a good cash flow. But the outcome was temporary.

By totally absorbing oneself success is sure.

How much more so in spiritual life. In devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Selfless devotion. The outcome is eternal.

quoted by rishi80

If more people believed in a philosophy where all beings are intrinsically linked and are regarded as equal, this world would be a peaceful place.

I think so too. This is such an essential realization for a peaceful world. To see all entities, all life-forms, as part and particle of God; our love for them can grow equally as our love for God grows. To see beyond the external coverings of form and designation, especially nationhood, race, and religion.

Also by seeing this world in a spiritual sense, we can tread upon it lightly, care for it, and not take more than our set quota. This is something I am working on in my own life, something I have a growing passion for, as this global environments health is diminishing.

Sri Isopanisad Mantra One

Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.

originally posted by bija

....feel in my heart that there is a place for buddhism and such. At least teaching a human being qualities of loving kindness and compassion is a good thing. I have been reading some of the Dalai Lama's books and have found them helpful in developing right view and learning to develop love for others more.

 

But as in the case of one of my spiritual guides ( my main teacher), he uses words such as bogus and non-sense paths when referring to such paths. I am sure his realisation of pure bhakti and intense desire to purely follow Lord Caitanya is the reason for this.

 

Outwardly and inwardly trying to situate myself as a Hare Krsna, I have found this preaching against mayavada and buddhism a touchy point. My conscience pricks up, you might say. Then again I am not a pure devotee. In my heart I feel God is very big and that all these philosophies are maybe a natural progression in this great mystery.

 

 

I have been reading some of Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books, in particular, Bhakti-tattva-viveka. It explains some deep truths about the nature of suddha(pure)-bhakti. This books is really beginning to soften my heart alot.

Surely this suddha-bhakti is not a cheap thing.

I feel pleasure when dabbling in some impersonal and voidist philosophy, along with some semblance of bhakti; can this be just another way to explore sense gratification? In a higher sense.

Suddha-bhakti is surely a rare gem. Everything for the pleasure of Krsna. Every speck of my own desires for gratification extinguished. Purely transcendental, without a tinge of this material sphere.

The only desire remaining: to pursue this suddha-bhakti.

In the last few days I feel I have been humbled. And understand now, why great bhakti-yoga teachers such as Srila Prabhupada have taught us to take care of the newly shooting bhakti creeper that is sprouting in the heart.

I found a copy of Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, Bhakti-tattva-viveka for download at the following website page. For the pleasure of devotees: www.purebhakti.com/library/index.shtml

I have never been diagnosed with synesthesia. But around five years ago I started experiencing visual phenomenon that were intermittent in their frequency. Over the last two and a half years these experiences are almost constant, or at least experienced everyday.

Initially I thought I was going a little bit crazy and was somewhat distressed about it, an information overload; and wondered if anyone else saw such things. I have not met anyone yet who does. And do not feel any doctors where I live would give correct diagnosis. So I just keep this experience to myself.

Last week I was watching a science show on tv about synesthesia and I thought it sounded close to what I have been experiencing. But there seems to be a wide range of synesthesia types, so I have not found exactly what I experience browsing on the net.

It is a personal experience really so I do not talk about it often, and when I do no one understands, or I get strange looks.

I have analysed the experience over the last two years, and basically what is going on is this:

My brain seems to be processing in such a way, that when I see peoples faces or presence, I see flows of energy, either clear wave like formations, or dense formations, or even sometimes rarely, colors, around their heads and not so often their bodies. These patterns seem to corrolate to the persons subtle mental states. Sometimes I even see these patterns when the person is concealing their mental state. After analyzing for some years the flow of patterns, the patterns seem to corrolate with the persons mental state, but not thoughts as such. So this seems to not be hallucination, as hallucination is of an unreal nature. But these visualizations have a grounding in the reality around me. I am fairly sure it is some form of synesthesia. It seems to be that my brain unconsciously processes data(subtle mental states), without my conscious awareness, and presents it in the form of these visuals.

At one stage I thought it may be yoga siddhi, as I have been absorbed in thinking of spiritual matters for years. But these days I think it is more a phenomenon in my brain wiring. As I said, possibly some form of synesthesia.

I asked my Gurudeva about the phenomenon, and he advised I not get caught up in impersonal lights etc, but to try and see GaurangaKrsna everywhere. Even though, because of such perceptions, it has led me to understanding how profoundly mysterious life is, still such things seem to be an obstacle on the path to suddha-bhakti. Attachment to jnana and yoga seems to have a foundation within me, but by some good fortune I have been graced by the association of a pure devotee.

I will have a look at the site you put in the link. Thanks.

Well now the fellowship will surely think I am strange.

I was wondering if any devotees were aware of the condition called 'synesthesia'.

And if so, could you recommend any bonafide online forum where this condition can be discussed. Or any website where the diverse forms of this condition are explained.

Thanks.

We just have to be concerned with our own problems and our own sins and not worry about hating the sins of others.quote guest

If we are self honest there is enough to keep us busy on our own plate.

Maybe sometimes we so easily judge others shortcomings because we want to distract ourselves from our own content.

There is a quote from Srila Prabhupada's Nectar of Instruction about shortcomings being like bubbles and foam in the river ganges. We are advised to look beyond the bubbles and foam and see the inherent purity.

But it is not so easy is it? Being conditioned since time immemorial. Well for me anyway, it is often not so easy!

Sentimental Mayavadi crud, to hate the sin but to love the sinner you must be able to judge.

Learning to judge seems to be second nature.

Conclusion: material conditioning is lamentable.

All the best Pankaja...hope you have a very special time, and yes do keep us posted of your adventures. Please keep in touch at this fellowship, as you have created many nice things for the net that are appreciated. It is a good contact and meeting point here.

Considering the three types of devotees (neophyte, middle, and topmost), the devotee situated on the middle platform for preaching purpose may be in opposition to mayavada and buddhism. But the devotee situated on the topmost platform will find no need for opposing views. Can this be so?

I kinda feel like Gaea in some ways. And feel in my heart that there is a place for buddhism and such. At least teaching a human being qualities of loving kindness and compassion is a good thing. I have been reading some of the Dalai Lama's books and have found them helpful in developing right view and learning to develop love for others more.

But as in the case of one of my spiritual guides ( my main teacher), he uses words such as bogus and non-sense paths when referring to such paths. I am sure his realisation of pure bhakti and intense desire to purely follow Lord Caitanya is the reason for this.

But then again, is he situated on the middle (madhyama) platform as a devotee and therefore, speaks in such ways.

Outwardly and inwardly trying to situate myself as a Hare Krsna, I have found this preaching against mayavada and buddhism a touchy point. My conscience pricks up, you might say. Then again I am not a pure devotee. In my heart I feel God is very big and that all these philosophies are maybe a natural progression in this great mystery.

Lately I have been experiencing much questioning in my heart.

Who is God? What is God? etc.

I was comforted by a quote I read in Srila Prabhupada's small book, 'The Matchless Gift.'

It said that 'the pure devotee is not concerned whether Krsna is God or not. The pure devotee just likes Krsna.'

That is about where my faith is at the moment, with my mind I do not know what is God for sure. But so much do I like reading about Gauranga-Krsna and vibrating His Holy Names. So Srila Prabhupada's above quote was very re-assuring for me. (oh, and by the way I am not a 'pure' devotee).

Science is evil. quote by guest

What we choose to do with scientific knowledge has the potential for suffering and destruction. Good use of science can lengthen our days for practicing Krsna consciousness if we come down ill. It can save a small child from illness and death, so when they become an accountable age they can become a devotee and spread the Holy Name.

To say all science is evil is a bit out there isn't it?

Praise the Lord for His greatness and wonderous ways. quote theist

Praise the Lord for making us so tiny and minute. Knowing smallness, maybe our position is not to 'know' everything. Thank God for that...I'll leave omniscience to Him.

My point is that we should just happily and faithfully support Srila Prabhupada instead of trying to prove him wrong on the strength of scientific explanations. quote by guest

Yes indeed guest. Faith such as this is very wise and uncomplicated.

When I first read about the sun and moon in Bhagavatam my faith was challenged. Why?

Because it is small faith I have.

So I took a different course than just acceptance and researched into the why's.

To quote BR Sridhara Maharaja in the previous post..

.If we are challenged we may take this course.

I have been following this discussion over the past few days, and I keep recalling something I read a long time ago. It was a transcript of a discussion with BR Sridhara Maharaja talking about this very topic of the moon and sun distances in the Bhagavatam.

I wish so much my memory could recall where and what I read but I could'nt. So I just did an internet search instead. I found this article at www.isvara.org with a snippet of BR Sridhara Maharaja's quote and perspective.

No flaming please, but I just feel in my heart that Bhagavatam science is much deeper than fundamentalist vision. Was Srila Prabhupada a fundamentalist. I don't think so.

He possibly took a certain approach with the said topics to draw us away from sourcing our faith from mundane scientists. Spirit being the source of all, is the root of the material universe. With the ascending process of science it is very difficult to ascertain spirit. But with full realisation of spirit, I am sure mundane phenomena would be intuitively known.

The Sun and the Moon

"Prabhupada wanted to undermine faith in the religion of modern science and to that end he ridiculed science and sought to expose the shallowness of the scientific community's own arguments against the existence of God."

Q. Devotees sometimes cite the Bhagavatam version that the moon is farther away from the earth than the sun (contradicting a fact known to the Greeks almost 2,500 years ago). I have found that this unscientific nonsense turns away many people and have warned devotees without a thorough scientific background not to embarrass us with such irrational statements. What is your opinion on this issue, and is there an allegorical way to view the descriptions of the universe presented in Srimad-Bhagavatam and other Vedic literatures?

A. The Srimad-Bhagavatam's description of cosmology is according to the vision of Sukadeva. It may be taken either that the world was shown to Sukadeva to be as it is described in the Bhagavatam--a particular angle of vision, a subjective reality--or that he is merely recounting what the prominent understanding of the time was.

With regard to the latter opinion, the text of the Bhagavatam itself lends credence to this outlook. When asked by Pariksit about the nature of the material world--the glory of Visnu maya--Sukadeva replied that essentially this world is a transformation of the three gunas, nothing more--bhagavato maya-guna-vibhuteh. He goes on to say that no one can describe this world perfectly, vacasa vadhigantum alam vibhudhayusapi purusas. As the sage continues his explanation, he describes it as being based on the estimations of learned persons of that period, pramana-laksanato vyakhyatah.

Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja suggested the following way of relating to the Bhagavatam's description of the sun being closer to the earth than the moon. He said, "Politically speaking, Russia is closer to India than America or Pakistan. Its nearness is calculated in terms of the friendly relations, or influence. So I like to say we may take in that way. Not in physical distance. Sun’s influence over the earth is first, next that of moon, next that of Mars. In this way perhaps we may proceed. I got some hint in that direction. If we are challenged we may take this course. But my ultimate basis of argument is that it is subjective. It is like a hypnotizer ... what the Lord showed Sukadeva at that time, it is described like that. It is in his hands, subjective control. Not that the objective will control us to see a thing. But the subject as he likes can make a show like a hypnotizer. That is my view. So everything can be explained. The higher seer is controlling our capacity to see anything. What one man sees another man won't see. Subjective control. The Visvarupa darsana in Bhagavad-gita, what is it? Krsna says, 'Arjuna, you see this. I am so and so.' And Arjuna is seeing that. It's not that the object is controlling the experience of the subject. But the super-subject (Krsna) is controlling the experience of the lower subject (the jiva soul). That is my understanding. Everything is controlled by the higher. The root (consciousness) is above, not the fossil (matter). 'The fossil (matter) will control my vision,' no such mean law I am ready to accept."

I also discussed this issue in a previous Sanga called “The Relativity of Scripture.”

http://swami.org/sanga/arch ives/pages/volume_three/m165.html

Therein I wrote:

"Many subjects are discussed throughout the Bhagavatam that shed light on its principal topic (satyam param) either directly or indirectly (anvayad itaratah). Topics such as psychology and astronomy, while discussed in the Bhagavatam, are not the primary focus of the text. These topics are introduced for reasons other than making definitive statements on the topics themselves. The Bhagavata discusses the structure of the universe for the purpose of stressing that the material manifestation is a fathomless, endless transformation of the gunas (maya-guna-vibhuteh) and thus glorious as the sakti of God appearing as his mystical, venerable Visvarupa. Sukadeva Goswami does not make the claim that his description of the universe is definitive. Indeed, he says the opposite: kastham manasa vacasa vadhigantum alam vibudhayusapi purusa, "No one can possibly explain or perfectly conceive of the nature of the material universe even in a lifetime of Lord Brahma." (SB. 5.16.4)

Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna-samhita explains the relativity of scripture, the difference between scriptural topics that are subject to human logic and those that are not. Psychology and astronomy fall into the former category.

Krsna dasa once asked Prabhupada why there is a discrepancy between the views of Bhagavatam and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets. To this Srila Prabhupada replied, "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

Here Prabhupada explains that literally accepting the explanation of the material universe found in the Bhagavatam is not essential to one's spiritual life. Indeed, the entire explanation is nonessential.

 

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