Beggar

Why do you write mayavardi with an "r". All recent acaryas including Srila Prabhupada and his guru use the word, "Mayavadi". For example here is a passage from TLC Chapt. 25 (my highlights).

That is a secondary issue in this instance. The point is that it is rasabhasa to view Mahaprabhu in sannyasa lila as the purusha or enjoyer. I thought that we established this on a previous thread. Tattvic concerns like the independence of Bhagavan, are eclipsed by rasik concerns when the Rupanugas, both real and aspiring, consider Krsna lila, Gaura lila and Acarya lila etc.

Another war begins over sematics. Bhagavan, Sri Krsna says in Bhavavad Gita, eighteenth chapter, sarva dharman parityaja. Srila Prabhupada translates dharma in this instance as "religion". If your going to argue about these things, first we have to define our terms. For instance what is the difference between ordinary dharma and santana dharma? When we refer to Gaudiya Vaisnavism are we referring to sanatana dharma? etc. If raghu is indeed doing this then we consider that point. If by Gaudiya Vaisnavism we mean a bunch of buildings and an eccleciastical committee then Murali Mohan's argument makes sense. If we don't first define our terms then we end up arguing over the definition of the terms. Also remember that Sanskrit words can have many meanings.

Even the Gauranga Nagaris do not think of Mahaprabhu, who is Krsna Himself, as the Enjoyer in his sannyasa lila. They only allow themselves to see Him as the Supreme Enjoyer is his form of Nimai Pandit in Navadvipa. In His sannyasa lila Mahaprabhu did not even want to see the form of a woman.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Arrival Lecture Dallas, March 3, 1975 "Therefore I am very much indebted to my father, and I have dedicated my book, Krsna book, to him. He wanted this. He wanted me to be preacher of Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and player of mrdanga and to become servant of Radharani." The Service Of Sri Radha http://www.mandala.com.au/articles/radhadasyam.htm Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj:

Sri Guru and His Grace Chapt. Nine (Excerpt) Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

When I joined ISKCON in '71 I always wondered why we heard Srila Prabhupada chant "bhaja sri krsna..." on the old recordings since we chanted "jaya sri krsna...". It wasn't until '77 or '78 that the change to "jaya advaita" was introduced. I had been told that Bhavananda knew the real story so I asked him about it in L.A. in '80.

Of course! He said it, whether he said it or he didn't! In the 1980, I asked Bhavananda why ISKCON had begun to chant, "jaya sri krsna caitanya prabhu nityananda jaya advaita gadadahara srivas adi gaura bhakta vrnda." (Instead of sri advaita) He said that it was because of that temple near the Krsna Balarama Mandir that chanted some bogus mantra and Prabhupada wanted to make our Pancha Tattva mantra as different as possible. Then he told me, "ya know, I'm not really sure if that happened or it happened in a dream." And based on Bhavananda's dream the mantra was chanted in a different way than Srila Prabhupada chanted it for years.

Until an authorized transcript of this lecture is provided, the above quote and all the others provided should be considered hearsay. <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="j"> <nobr></nobr></td></tr></tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="j"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="j"> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table>

But we all know it is an absurd offense to even theorectically imagine a Rupanuga acarya is imitating rasa lila, which in essence is what you are saying.

No, I didn't discuss this with Sruta. Feeling guilty?

We all imagined this:

(In constant sorrow through his days) I am a man of constant sorrow I've seen trouble all my day. I bid farewell to old New Vrndavana The place where I was born and raised. (The place where he was born and raised) For six long years I've been in Maya No pleasures here on earth I found For in this world I'm bound to ramble I have no friends to help me now. [chorus] He has no friends to help him now It's fare thee well my old lover I never expect to see you again For I'm bound to ride that northern railroad Perhaps I'll die upon this train. [chorus] Perhaps he'll die upon this train. You can burn my body in some deep valley For many years where I may lay Then you may learn to love another While I am sleeping in the brahmajyoti. [chorus] While he is sleeping in his brahmajyoti. Maybe your friends think I'm just a stranger My face you'll never see no more. But there is one promise that is given I'll meet you on Vaikuntha's golden shore. [chorus] He'll meet you on Vaikuntha's golden shore.

You would have to show how your position has changed from the time you wrote, Until the time you wrote BTW I tried to read your statements to two Prabhupada disciples and after several words they both refused to hear the rest of your comments. From my perspective both statements are interestingly interrelated. Again if you wish to write such things on Audarya in the name of free thought then please do not represent yourself as an orthodox follower of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math International and please refrain from judging others from that perspective because you are not holding yourself accountable to that standard. You can't just assume diametrically oppossed positions at your whim. Actually the free thinker Murali Mohan is despite his rasabhasa, a less pernicious threat than a judgemental junior member of the local...., well you know what!

The topic of this thread is "what is wrong with the sahajiya point of view"? On a previous thread Murali Mohan wrote, On this thread exploring the implications of Sahajiyaism he again brings up the same point although couched in a different way, If you examine both quotes from Murali Mohan he gives the reason why in his theory it is not always wrong for an acarya to have sex with his "disciple" that, "... the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and because, [an acarya] ...is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord and the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant." Now in his statement on this thread where he theoretically projects this behavior onto Srila Prabhupada, he is not seeing such activity as a fall down because he is viewing Prabhupada or any real acarya as "pure, cent-per-cent dedicated devotee of the Lord". But before he learns of the acarya having sex with his disciple he already accepts that the acarya is a "pure, cent-per-cent dedicated devotee of the Lord". Then one must ask why, on what basis has he accepted the acarya as pure? Srila Prabhupada refered to a "testing period" (this is based on sastra) where both the guru and the disciple test each other for sincerity and that they are both following the Vaisnava regulative principles. So actually both ideas are interrelated but only indirectly. Again the two ideas to which I am referring are 1) that a pure devotee may have Krsna enjoy ladies through him as a form of raganuga bhajan, and 2) that pure devotee may break the regulative principles and enjoy himself and he can do this because he is already pure. And then there is Kulapavana Prabhu's point taken from sastra that if the guru falls down, one should wait to see if he can become rectified. To sum this up I am asserting that Murali Mohan is continuing to promote the possiblity of the acarya having sex with a disciple as a form of raganuga bhajan and is trying to disguise it through presenting it in a slightly different manner. And that it is easy to be fooled by this tactic as has Kulapavana Prabhu. Murali Mohan on the previous thread admited that an advanced Rupanuga bhakta would never behave in this way and to even think of it is a distasteful rasabhasa. So he essentially admitted defeat. But because he cannot take good counsel and is attached to such a classic sahajiya concept he is again presenting it in a very slightly different manner. Ultimately people can believe what they want. It is really not up to me. I am not here just to control and fight, but really over the last year and a half I have learned very much. But I cannot sit by idley why Murali Mohan Prabhu sometimes represents himself as disciple in the line of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and sometimes proposes ideas that are nauseating to the followers and aspiring followers of Gaudiya Vaisnavism in the Sarsawat line.

Bhagavad Gita: As It Is online version is at: http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/en

With all due respects gHari I don't think that you are following this closely enough. Why should I be oppressed by an ultra right wing attitude such as, IOW that I am suspected and subtly accused of disloyalty not only to the "real" acarya but to the entire guru varga. When Murali Mohan can then turn around and actually speculate, and then insist a few days later, (after admitting the rasabhasik nature of this) Which one is it? That we must leave all our intelligence "at the door" or we are free to speculate and come up with the most classic Prakrta Sahajiya theory of all? And after all if one is "questioning" the "real" acarya by giving an opinion on the meaning of their words the they must by inference be an imitation devotee which by definition implies Sahajiyaism of some sorts. Then after being covertly accused of imitation devotion to be subsequently accused of "all too shallow and conditional faith" because one doesn't even care to hypothetically accept such a nasty thought about Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. (and I and every "normal thinking" aspiring devotee who reads such a thing should immediately jump into the ocean or a river without even taking the time to disrobe). So our sensibilities should be attacked by either far right wing sectarianism oscillating to extreme (beyond left wing) nihilism either at whim or due to confusion, at the drop of a hat? Each extreme opposes and nullifies the validity of the other. I find it difficult to stand by and not oppose such a misrepresentation of reality.

What if the "acarya" didn't have sex with his disciple, but rather had a T-bone steak for dinner? What if the "acarya" cannibalised several of his disciples? What if the "acarya" was a biggest serial killer in modern history? Under these circumstances would you "judge" the acarya? No CHECKMATE -- this has nothing to do with whether or not the acarya should be judged. The topic is Sahajiyaism and your hypothetical scenario is Sahajiyaism. A so-called acarya who has sex with his disciple is not an acarya in the line of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, he would either be fallen or a Prakrta Sahajiya, end of discussion. You are quite wrong and yes, foolishly aparadhic to say the least. Your guru and any of the real living gurus at present would slap your face if you ever said to any of them what you have written here (concerning your "hypothetical" scenerio).WILL THE REAL MURALI MOHAN PRABHU PLEASE STAND UP:

Don't we also separate from the ones we love and who don't share the same opinion or views, when we pray for Jesus?

First, just quoting my post doesn't mean that you took the time and energy to carefully read what I wrote. Next, when Srila Govinda Maharaj was in Soquel in 2004 he remarked, "everyone knows that Guru Maharaj and Swami Maharaj (Prabhupada) were charged against Mayavada and Sahjiyaism". Even from the neutral point of view we can understand that this is also the position of Srila Govinda Maharaj. In the minds of Gaudiya Vaisnavas the most classic form of Sahjiyaism is trying to experience aprakrata parakiya bhava by having sex outside of marriage. To infer that a Gaudiya Vaisnava guru is or has done such a thing is to impune his character. This would be true even theorectically. It doesn't matter whether I think that it is scandalous, it matters what those situated in reality think - those like Srila Sridhar Maharaj and your guru etc. It is your duty as an initiated disciple to bring your thoughts in line with theirs. If you cannot control your mind in such a way than at least when you write after you have identified yourself as a disciple, you must be careful about what you write because you are representing your guru, param guru and entire guru varga. If you want to come on as a "civilian" under an assumed screen name then that's another thing entirely. This entire line of argument is basically the same as when you were writing on another thread opposing the sastric schedule of incarnating Yuga Avataras by using the argument that the Lord is completely independent. No doubt the Lord is completely independent but that line of thought was irrelevant to the discussion. Now you are saying that because a self realized sadhu or guru who is "as good as the Lord" can therefore do anything and everything. Because the topic is Sahajiyaism your theory might seem on point because sleeping with a disciple like that would be a classic case of such Prakrta Sahajiyaism, at least according to Gaudiya Vaisnavism. But actually what you have brought up is not on point at all, if the idea of the independence of the Lord and pure devotees is the issue then it is only on point or relevent if you are proposing that adultry is way to experience the transcendental parakiya bhava, which in fact, I believe you are doing in an unconscious manner.

As Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has stated in the "The Bhaghavat" speech, no thought is a bad thought. What is the inner meaning of this, perhaps even that an antithesis will arise and then synthesis? Another meaning is perhaps couched within that thought is the seed of a more progressive representation of that thought. So the idea that a liberated soul can do anything, or that ones faith should be unconditional is perhaps the thought behind your thought. But what would be the motive for expressing such a thought by the wording and the name you have chosen to invoke? If I say, "Hypothetically if I called you an ass, which in real life I would never do...", wouldn't that on some level be the same as actually calling you an ass? Also if one has no idea of what your motives are they could perhaps come up with the theory that you have knowledge that your guru is not following the regulative principles, and you are trying to float that idea through a hypothetical situation. You are posting lectures from Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math speakers and your param guru, Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said that he was even more conservative than his guru Maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakur. How is this consistent? One minute you are representing your Math and the next minute not? Or the doubt will creep in, "oh maybe he is trying to tell us something about his own Math?" Or the classic law school example, is shouting out , 'fire' (if there is no fire) in a crowded movie theater protected under the right of free speech? Is your hypothetical, protected under the universal right of freedom of thought given by the Creator? The controversy you stir up may seem like fun, even superficially for me, also. But as Srila Prabhupada said when he installed the Radha Krsna dieties in L.A., "be careful you are dealing with Krsna".

The Search for Sri Krishna by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj Two excerpts: Introduction, and 'The Krishna Conception'<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Introduction </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Everyone is searching for rasa, or pleasure. The status of rasa is the highest. As persons we have our subjective existence, but Rasa, pleasure, has His supersubjective existence. He is a person. He is ahkila rasamrta murtih -- the Reservoir of All Pleasure. He is Krishna. Rasa is Krishna. There cannot be rasa in any other place but Krishna. He is the fountainhead of all different types of rasa. So, by the nature of our constitution we have to search after Krishna. In the Brahma-Sutra it is said, "Inquire after the Supreme Cause of this world. Search!" From where has everything come? How is everything maintaining its existence? By whom? And ultimately, where does everything enter after death? That is Brahma, or Spirit, the most fundamental plane from where everything springs up, remains, and ultimately enters. Where is Brahma? The Brahma-Sutra advises us to inquire after the prime cause, the biggest, the all accommodating. But Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu replaced that, Srimad Bhagavatam replaced that with krsnanusandhana -- the search for Sri Krishna. Brahma-jijnasa, the search for spirit, is a dry thing. That is only the exercise of your thinking faculty, a jugglery of reason. Leave that behind. Begin the search for Sri Krishna and quench the thirst of your heart. Rasa jijnasa, raso vai sah. The things acquired by your reason won't satisfy you. Jnana, or knowledge, cannot really quench your thirst, so instead of brahma-jijnasa accept krsnanusandhana and begin the search for Sri Krishna. Where is Krishna? Our real want will be satisfied only by getting the service of Krishna; not by anything else. We want to satisfy the innermost demands of our hearts. We don't care to know where we are or what is controlling everything, but we really want to quench our thirst for rasa, for madhurya, for sweetness. We must search neither for knowledge nor for the controller of this world; we must search after rasa, anandam, after beauty and charm. </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"> Beg for Krishna </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srimad-Bhagavatam have taught us what to beg for, what to pray for, what to want. They have taught us, "If you beg, beg for Krishna, not for anything else." So the fate of the Vaishnavas, the students of the Bhagavat and the followers of Mahaprabhu, is sealed in the search for Sri Krishna. We want nothing else but Krishna. The Vedas say srnvantu visve amrtasya putrah -- "O, you sons of nectar, sons of the nectarine ocean sea: please listen to me. You were born in nectar; you were born to taste nectar, and you must not allow yourselves to be satisfied by anything but nectar. So, however misguided you may be for the time being, awake! Arise! Search for that nectar, that satisfaction." The Vedas tell us, "Om!" Om means a big "Yes!What you are searching for -- that is! Don't be disappointed." The Vedas say that the object of our inner search exists. The common search of all your hearts is existing, and your thirst will be quenched. By your constitution you are meant for that and you deserve that, so don't be afraid; don't be cowed down. It is already given in your being. And you can never be satisfied with anything else. So prepare your self, after your long search, to receive that long missing nectar in its full form and quality. Awake! Arise! Search for your fortune and you cannot but have that. It is your birthright. It is the wealth of your own soul. It cannot but be within you. You have no other business, no other engagement but krsnanusandhana, the Search for Sri Krishna -- Reality the Beautiful. </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"> <hr> The Krishna Conception </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Surrender is not a lip transaction. Surrender means not only to surrender one's possessions, but to realize that the possessions themselves are false. I am not a master of anything. I am not even master of myself. Surrender means to give everything to the Guru, and rid ourselves of the unholy connection of so many possessions, so that they may not disturb us by always suggesting, "You are my master," and in this way misleading us. We should think, "Everything belongs to the Lord and His delegation, the Guru. I am not the master of anything." That sort of knowledge we should imbibe, and that will be helpful to our real spiritual progress. This is reality. We have to realize that fact. We want the truth, and we want to free ourselves from false notions. So, proper diksa, spiritual initiation, imparts the divine knowledge that nothing belongs to us; not only that, but everything belongs to God, including ourselves. That is the conception of diksa: "I belong to Him; everything belongs to Him. I am His servant, and these are the objects of His service." </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Fool's Paradise </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>This is reality, and we are suffering under nonreality in an imaginary world. We are living in a fool's paradise. We should do away with the fool's paradise and try to enter into real paradise. When we have a peep into the characteristic of the absolute environment of reality, and even a little regard for the truth, we can no longer relish the paraphernalia of this world as we did previously. Because we have had a real taste of the higher truth, we will have no charm for this material world. We will no longer feel encouragement to meet with the duties that are relating to this world of enjoyment. We will be indifferent. We know that the connection with the present enjoying mood brings a painful reaction. We can realize that, but we cannot leave it behind. We cannot cut off the connection completely in the stage of sadhana, spiritual practice. Still, we have no other alternative. Our affinity for the positive truth should be increased more and more and gradually our affinity for our paraphernalia and obligations will all disappear. Although repeatedly we may not be successful, still we will be unable to give up the idea. We will attempt again and again to make progress towards the truth, and when we are unsuccessful, our heart will ache to think that we are repeatedly being defeated by the enemies who are all around us. But the fire of Krishna consciousness is there, and that fire is not to be quenched. It is a spark of eternal truth. So, the fire will continue, and the day will come when the enemies that are surrounding us will have to retire once and for all. One day we will find that Krishna has gradually captured our whole heart, and the others have retired forever; they are no longer present to trouble us in our mental circle. We will find that those unwanted things were like mushrooms: they came out from our mental soil, and now they have all gone and died. They have all gone away, and Krishna alone is in the heart. At that time, the heart is only full of Krishna, full of the Krishna conception. </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Krishna Captures The Heart </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad once instructed a disciple at the time of initiation into the Hare Krishna mantra that Krishna should be allowed to land in our hearts, just as an army is landed by the navy. An army is carried by a ship, and when they have landed, the fight begins, and they capture the country, just as Julius Caesar said, "Veni vidi vici -- I came, I saw, I conquered." So, we have to allow Krishna to land in our hearts. Then the fight will begin. What is the proposal of Krishna consciousness, and what is the proposal of so many other conceptions? They are all giving us their assurances from time immemorial, saying, "I shall give you this, I shall give you that," but the Krishna conception will enter and say, "My claim is this: the whole thing is Mine, and you are all trespassers!" The fight will begin; the unwanted things are sure to withdraw, and Krishna consciousness will capture the whole heart. This is the process. Krishna consciousness has only to land within our hearts. Somehow or other, from a pure devotee, a bit of real Krishna consciousness should enter through our ears into our hearts, and Krishna will supply whatever is required. One who has imbibed even a slight regard for Krishna consciousness is assured of success in spiritual life, today or tomorrow. We may have erected high walls on all sides to protect ourselves so that Krishna consciousness may not enter, but Krishna is a thief -- and a thief requires no invitation. No preparation is necessary for His welcome. He will enter for His own interest, and that is our consolation. Our solace is that Krishna is a thief. Maya has erected her high walls on all sides, but nothing is sufficient to stop Krishna consciousness. Krishna is a thief, and stealthily He will enter one day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Hope For The Hopeless </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>A devotee may become hopeless, thinking, "The enemy is within my own house; my own kinsmen are my enemies. I am hopeless." We may become disappointed, but Krishna consciousness will not leave us in any way. Krishna will persevere, and in due course of time, He will conquer. And other things, no matter how closely related they may be in private and well-protected rooms in our hearts, will have to go. They must take leave from every corner of our hearts. Krishna will conquer. Krishna will capture the whole thing. The unwanted lusty desires of our hearts are foreign things. They are only mushrooms. Like mushrooms, they come out; they have no permanent stability or root. They are not rooted to the soil. We may think that what we have stored in our hearts is very near and dear, and that is already mixed with us as a part of our existence, but when Krishna consciousness enters, they will all float like mushrooms. After all, they are mushrooms; they have no footing, no connection with the soil. They are only floating. All material interests are only floating on the surface. They are not deeply rooted within and without the whole of our existence. Only Krishna consciousness has its existence everywhere, within all parts of our existence. So, the mushrooms will have to vanish one day. This is confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam [2.8.5]: pravistah karna-randhrena svanam bhava-saroruham dhunoti samalam krsnah salilasya yatha sarat When Krishna enters the heart through the ear, He captures the lotus of the heart and then gradually makes all the dirt in the heart disappear. Just as when the autumn season comes, all the water everywhere becomes pure, so also, when Krishna enters our hearts, all the impurities within will gradually vanish, and only Krishna will remain forever.</td></tr></tbody></table>

As the son of a son of a sahajiya F C G I went out on the Ganges for adventure C G Expanding the view of the captain and crew D G Like a man just released from indenture G As a dreamer of dreams and a mental speculating man F C G I have chalked up many a mile C G Read dozens of books about rasika heroes and heroines D G And I learned much from both of their styles Chorus: F C Son of a son, son of a son G Son of a son of a sahajiya F C Son of a gun, smoked the last ton C One step ahead of the jailer Now away in the near future Southeast of disorder You can shake the hand of the Pan wala man As he greets you at the Bangala boarder And the brahmacarini she hails from Sri Lanka Island of the spices Salt for your subji and cinnamon sweet And the baba rum dum is for all your good vices F C Haul the sheet in as we ride on the wind G That our forefathers harnessed before us F C Hear the bells ring as the tide ringing chants G It's a son of a gun of a chorus Where it all ends I can't fathom my friends If I knew I might toss out my anchor So I'll cruise along the Ganga always searching for sahajiya songs Not a barrister a thief or a banker But the son of a son, son of a son Son of a son of a sahajiya Son of a gun, smoke the last ton One step ahead of the jailer I'm just a son of a son, son of a son Son of a son of a sahayiya F C The Ganges water is in my veins, my Sahajiya tradition remains G I just wish I could afford a Santa Cruz trailer

Do the Funky Sahajiya You may have heard of THE FUNKY SAHAJIYA - the craziest dance ever. Now it is possible for you to learn this dance in the privacy of your own home. With these careful instructions, you should be able to master this fine art within days and acheive Krishna prema. Look like you in bhava and relax, concentrating on the thumping beat of the Mrdanga drum. Tapping toes or nodding the head helps. Beginners are advised to count from 1 to 4. Do not move lips, chant silently.