theist

What`s the difference between Krsna and Christ? Are they both the same? Would I achieve liberation or self-realization if I chant, " Oh Lord Oh Lord Christ my Lord Alleluja Oh Lord Oh Lord Christ my Lord Alleluja Oh Lord Oh Lord Christ my Lord Alleluja "

 

Any view from you would be most welcome.

Yes certainly, but liberation comes in variegated forms. If your bhakti towards Christ was not polluted with impersonalism and you worshipped Christ as the servant of the Father then Lord Jesus may bless you with liberation into the variety found in the Spiritual Sky.

My belief is this is very rare. We should not think that all these millions of so-called Christians are achieving this.

Srila Prabhupada when asked if Jesus had his own planet spoke of a planet within this universe that he called Christ-loka. It is this planet where the true disciples of Jesus Christ go to for final training in Krishna/Vishnu consciousness and then they go to the Spiritual Sky according to their particular rasa.

Jesus did not come to earth to replace the Supreme Person but rather to draw souls to and reveal the Supreme Person.

It is also my belief that Lord Jesus has unlimited disciples from many other planets in this universe. Earth was certainly not his first mission nor his last and that these disciples also go to the plane of Christ-loka.

But with the Holy Names it is not an either or situation. You can chant the names of the Son and the Father together.

Jaya Jaya Yeshua! Jaya Jaya Krishna!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/images/jesusandkrsna1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter27.html&usg=__lptJiEM5Rhzkk3xugr6IKqQBQd4=&h=353&w=263&sz=23&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=Zl-UyRY_EtL3eM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJesus%2Band%2BKrishna%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enUS330US330%26sa%3DG

Don`t you remember, Theist, my religion is Catholicism? That Christianity is mayavadism? Bhakti yoga is Vaishnavism when we put Krsna at the center of our hearts. But when we place Christ as the center of our worship then that`s mayavadism. But when we think that Krsna and Christ are simultaneously one and different then that is acintya-bheda-abheda if we believe Krsna is bigger than Christ.

Catholic or Protestant makes no difference. What is important is the teaching of Christ. Christ made it abundantly clear that He was/is/ and forever will be the servant of the Father.

Jesus never taught that he was serving Himself and only pretending to be serving someone else.

Lord Jesus Christ desired that we have a relationship with the Supreme person just as he has a relationship with the Supreme Person. Of course Christ is an Avatar of the Supreme Lord so to worship him is in that sense to worship God. BUT NO WHERE IN CHRISTS TEACHINGS IS IT TAUGHT THAT OFFERING SOMETHING TO GOD REALLY MEANS YOU ARE OFFERING IT TO YOURSELF.

Christ is not the mayavadi. it is you who are misunderstanding the teaching

Nice perspective gHari. Hate atheism but love the so-called atheist and help if possible. Actually there are no atheists, mayavadi's demigods or demons. Every spiritself is a devotee. Some remember, some are in a state of forgetfllness and others like us are trying to change and come to rememberance.

Just a crazy dream/nightmare.

Radharani or Laxsmi. Why not both? Of course then there would be nothing to argue about.

One wonders why you would bother watching a gaudiya film since you know you will have some disagreements. Maybe that's it, maybe that is what you are seeking.

"Sri" means Srimati Radharani. "Srila" means one who possesses the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani is his heart.

 

 

Atheists that say God must be more complex than the universe itself, seem to have a remarkably deep understanding of theistic reality. They appear to acknowledge the (Vedic) notion that God is the ultimate cause of all causes, who controls everything. However, they don’t seem to grasp the idea that our material world is only a fraction of absolute reality, and that it’s therefore not a problem at all for God (absolute reality) to be more complex than our material universe.

 

Furthermore, we know from mathematical chaos theory that even extremely simple systems can produce complex infinite self-similar order or structure (see e.g., Mandelbrot set - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) So, the fundamental principle (God) that underlies the universe, can actually be infinitely more simple than manifest reality..

This is very interesting. It seems that just as God is both smaller than the smallest and bigger than the biggest He is also the most complex and the most simple.

Atheists say that God, to exist, must be unlimitedly complex, since He must be more complex than the universe itself...is that argument true?

Yes as far as it goes. But why would an atheist say that?

God by definition must be capable of more complex thought then it took to develop the universe since His intelligence can have no limit.

This just shows there is no way for us to totally figure out God.

Theist i have a question.

Lord krishna says in the gita that nature of soul is of the self.That gives an advaitin view, does it.?

Depends on how you define soul and self. When I say soul or self I am meaning a sub-atomic infinitesimal part of Krishna. A photon compared to the Sun globe.

It`s because when we glorify Krsna, we are glorifying Him who is present within us as the Supersoul. When we serve Krsna by offering ourselves a leaf, water, grain and flower, God accepts them as the Supersoul-recipient of the said items offered to Him. (This maybe applicable only if Guru or Krsna`s Deity isn`t present before us.) That`s why we always say a thanks giving prayer to God before we eat the food and drink the water being served to us on the dining table.

Melvin this is crazy talk.. When you are offering something to Krishna you are offering it to Krishna. You are the offerer and Krishna is the receipient of the offering. Krishna is a person, one with and separate from your self.

Bhaktivinode said that in one and difference the difference is more prominent. See it like 49% and 51%. Krishna says "in one sense I am everything, yet I am independent.

We are servant Krishna and He is served Krishna.

If you ae offering something and thinking that ultimately you are offering it to yourself then you are a mayavadi.

Our constitutional position is to serve Krishna, it is our natural position and the whole Spiritual World is based on this principle. The Supreme Personality of Godhead (Vishnu tattva) and the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead( jiva tattva).

If you want to serve yourself directly then you end up in the material plane. Has it worked yet for us?

The basic example Prabhupada gives is that the hand is meant to serve the body as a whole by supplying food to the stomach. The food is then distributed throughout the body as a whole and the hand receives it's nourishment. If the hand tries to eat the food itself without giving it to the stomach it will starve.

We ask ourselves, "Why should I serve Krishna?". Why not ask, "Why should I not serve Krishna?".

Does anyone have a good reason why they should not serve Krishna?

Krishna can talk to you when your body is asleep. We are not these bodies remember.

For gently inducing sleep take a sublinqual tablet of melatonin 3 mg. 1/2 hour before you need to be asleep.

These are simple acts that really should just be part of everyday human life and not really any big acts of charity or sacrifice. Nevertheless it will have a benefical effect on our consciousness helping us to recognize the commonality of life beyond just the human species.

Bg 5.18 : TRANSLATION : The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste] .

Yes that is a good practice. I am an apt. dweller and have limited oppurtunity to provide food for strays but I keep sugar water for hummingbirdsin a feeder and grains and seeds in a container on my window ledge for other birds.

TRANSLATION Bg 10.11

Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

PURPORT

When Lord Caitanya was in Benares promulgating the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, thousands of people were following Him. Prakāśānanda, a very influential and learned scholar in Benares at that time, derided Lord Caitanya for being a sentimentalist. Sometimes philosophers criticize the devotees because they think that most of the devotees are in the darkness of ignorance and are philosophically naive sentimentalists. Actually that is not the fact. There are very, very learned scholars who have put forward the philosophy of devotion, but even if a devotee does not take advantage of their literatures or of his spiritual master, if he is sincere in his devotional service he is helped by Kṛṣṇa Himself within his heart. So the sincere devotee engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be without knowledge. The only qualification is that one carry out devotional service in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

The modern philosophers think that without discriminating one cannot have pure knowledge. For them this answer is given by the Supreme Lord: those who are engaged in pure devotional service, even though they be without sufficient education and even without sufficient knowledge of the Vedic principles, are still helped by the Supreme God, as stated in this verse.

The Lord tells Arjuna that basically there is no possibility of understanding the Supreme Truth, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by speculating, for the Supreme Truth is so great that it is not possible to understand Him or to achieve Him simply by making a mental effort. Man can go on speculating for several millions of years, and if he is not devoted, if he is not a lover of the Supreme Truth, he will never understand Kṛṣṇa or the Supreme Truth. Only by devotional service is the Supreme Truth, Kṛṣṇa, pleased, and by His inconceivable energy He can reveal Himself to the heart of the pure devotee. The pure devotee always has Kṛṣṇa within his heart; therefore he is just like the sun that dissipates the darkness of ignorance. This is the special mercy rendered to the pure devotee by Kṛṣṇa.

Due to the contamination of material association, through many, many millions of births, one's heart is always covered with the dust of materialism, but when one engages in devotional service and constantly chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, the dust quickly clears, and one is elevated to the platform of pure knowledge. The ultimate goal of Viṣṇu can be attained only by this chant and by devotional service, and not by mental speculation or argument. The pure devotee does not have to worry about the necessities of life; he need not be anxious because when he removes the darkness from his heart, everything is provided automatically by the Supreme Lord, for He is pleased by the loving devotional service of the devotee. This is the essence of the Gītā's teachings. By studying Bhagavad-gītā, one can become a completely surrendered soul to the Supreme Lord and engage himself in pure devotional service. As the Lord takes charge, one becomes completely free from all kinds of materialistic endeavors.

The mind's job is to accept and reject. The idea comes to the mind, maybe from a TV ad, that a new red sports car will bring happiness. Once confronted with the proposition the mind will then either accept the idea or reject it.

Say it accepts it. Then one may acquire such a car but after a time it becomes clear that one is not satisfied. Then the mind will reject the idea of a red sports car instead accepting the idea that a blue one will bring happiness.

This is simply what they mind does. it can be easily swayed and this is why it is the central target of advertising.

This same function of the mind is employed when we read/hear the words of Krishna or His devotees. Immediately the mind feels it has to accept or reject what is heard.

This is a very dangerous position actually because we conditioned souls are attempting to hear the words of God through a mind which is filled already with nothing but misconceptions and false desires.

This puts us in the position of either accepting what we think we hear or rejecting what we hear when actually the chances are very good we are not really hearing properly what was said.

In either case the good instruction will not take hold because it was not properly received.

If we think of ourselves as very intelligent or high level philosophers then the mind will feel compelled to formulate a hasty opinion either rejecting what was heard or accepting what we think we heard on the spot and then build a philosophical structure around the misconception to protect it from being challenged and dismantled.

This is how even after so many decades people are still arguing over how the parampara passes from one soul to another.

The only way past this wall separating us from trancendence is to learn to hear correctly. This takes honesty on our part to admit that are minds are so faulty that the chances are great that we did not hear properly the words of guru and pray for Krishna within our hearts to implant within us, by His grace, the proper understanding of what He is saying as the external guru.

We must abandon all faith in the mind and place that faith on Krishna instead. To the degree that is done enlightenment will follow.

Cranberries are wonderous when it comes to clearing up urinary tract infections but reversing kidney failure is way beyond their scope.

A doubt can arise whether the principle of 'Ahimsa' so loudly proclaimed is

not inconsistent with the sacrifice of goats, horses(in Aswamedha) etc.

referred to in the Vedas. No doubt, the Vedas did prescribe some animal

sacrifices; it even spoke of 'Purushamedha' a human sacrifice.

 

But, the concept should be viewed in the context in which they were so

prescribed. The Upanishads which came subsequently to analyze and explain the

Vedic texts lost no time in clarifying that these sacrifices were more

symbolic and allegorical than referring to the actual sacrifice of the animals

or human and that the effects of these sacrifices could be secured by

substitute materials like Gritha (Ghee), Masha (Black gram) and certain other

leafy vegetables. Even today, it may be observed that in the shradda

ceremonies, Ghee, Rice, Black gram and Thila (sesame seeds) are used, may be

as substitutes for the sacrifice of living beings. This view has been upheld

in subsequent recensions and sacrifice of living beings is prohibited by

Dharma as also by law.

Animal sacrifice is simply gruesome and in the mode of ignorance. It is beyond disgusting. No real way to pretty-up this chapter in human history.

As I feared. Primate still has not understood.

Why that thread was closed I have no idea but anyway...

Primate,

Try to understand, THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO SAY ON THIS IS IN THE EXAMPLE OF THE SUN AND THE SUNSHINE. That's it bro. You agree the sun and the sunshine show that the Sun is the basis of the sunshine but for some reason are not willing to see the same for Krishna and the Brahman. That is your choice. That's all.

Now you have some mental path that leads you to the conclusion that Prabhupada was wrong in using the word basis whereas I accept and understand his use of the word. Again your right to disagree I do not wish to bludgeon you over and over on this point.

However nor am I willing to stroll with you down the mental path that brought you to your erroneous conclusion.

You should pray about to the Lord in your heart and He will enlighten you if you are sincere. I cannot force you to see what you do not wish to see. God grants us our desires so God is fulflling your desire not to see so to try and force my view on you would mean I was working against Supersoul. I have no need to bang my head against that wall.

Hare Krishna

Yep. I'm 7'8";)

Apparently. I hope so.

TRANSLATION Bg 3.3

The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work.

PURPORT :

In the Second Chapter, verse 39, the Lord explained two kinds of procedures-namely sāṅkhya-yoga and karma-yoga, or buddhi-yoga. In this verse, the Lord explains the same more clearly. Sāṅkhya-yoga, or the analytical study of the nature of spirit and matter, is the subject matter for persons who are inclined to speculate and understand things by experimental knowledge and philosophy. The other class of men work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as it is explained in the 61st verse of the Second Chapter. The Lord has explained, also in the 39th verse, that by working by the principles of buddhi-yoga, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can be relieved from the bonds of action; and, furthermore, there is no flaw in the process. The same principle is more clearly explained in the 61st verse-that this buddhi-yoga is to depend entirely on the Supreme (or more specifically, on Kṛṣṇa), and in this way all the senses can be brought under control very easily. Therefore, both the yogas are interdependant, as religion and philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation. The ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa, because the philosophers who are also sincerely searching after the Absolute Truth come in the end to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. The whole process is to understand the real position of the self in relation to the Superself. The indirect process is philosophical speculation, by which, gradually, one may come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; and the other process is directly connecting with everything in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of these two, the path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is better because it does not depend on purifying the senses by a philosophical process. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is itself the purifying process, and by the direct method of devotional service it is simultaneously easy and sublime.

theist:

Krishna cannot be found through mental speculation. Better to put one's faith in God than in one's mental abilities.

response from primate.

Actually, it's best to do both..

Well this is good. You are now an agnostic no longer and have developed some faith in knowledge in God. That is that He exists.

Now we must differentiate between mental speculation and philosophical speculation.

One must use the mind to question into the reality of the absolute truth. That is philosophical speculation.

The difference as Prabhupada used the terms is in mental speculation one expects the final answer to be arrived at through the processes of the mind and philosophical speculation is used to for wondering about the life we see before us and formulating relevant questions to place before guru and God.

In one process faith is placed in the mind alone and in the other faith goes to God and His representative and the mind is used as a tool only.

Krishna cannot be found through mental speculation. Better to put one's faith in God than in one's mental abilities.

The so-called hindus are not guiltless. Just witness the ever increasing number of females killed in the womb in India.

Well, I have a logical basis or argument, which is stated in my post #65 and some other posts in this thread. But I agree that one cannot be absolutely sure whether something is absolutely true or not. Hereby I correct my earlier statement to: Any sun-metaphor of reality is unlikely to be absolutely true. And, of course, anything that has a cause, cannot be God..

OK this is good. And please remember that the sun metaphor was not presented as perfect rather I admited no material metaphor can ever describe transcendance perfectly.

At best it can be an indicator. Some indicators will be better then others of course but all fall short.

Here is a question for you.

Don't you think that if there is a God then everything else material or spiritual must be based and sustained on His person and will?