theist

I have yet to buy Og Mandino`s best selling book, The Greatest Salesman.

What for? Do you have something to sell melvin?

Krishna is the greatest commodity. He ever increases in value. You can give Him away to all you see and yet He always remains with you.

What worldly salesman can claim the same for his product?

Whatever is essential, that is, whatever doesn't contradict the spirit of the Bhagavatam, may be accepted. Your question raises another issue: what constitutes shastra? You may have some burden, especially among followers of the Bhagavatam as taught by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, to establish whatever is written by Osho or any vamamarga tantrikas must be accepted as shastra. But if there is something in there that supports the essence of the Bagavatam--that all materially motivated religion is completely rejected, as we see in the second verse, which essentially states it thesis--then someone may accept that. But that doesn't mean they eat the whole flower.

 

If you read that verse in context, you'll see it's not about indiscriminately accepting whatever someone who poses as a sadhu says, but about how saintly persons only accept what's necessary for their spiritual progress.

Yes, in context.

do you really ? and follow it too ? essence from vamamarga tantriks and osho as well ?

Take gold where you find it even in a pool of mud. No need to search the mud pools though when Srimad Bhagavatam is like finding gold on the surface of the ground. And beyond that it is already formed into wonderful bracelets, necklaces, rings and many other fine pieces art just waiting for our appreciation.

In my little world I do not concern myself any longer with movements of anysize or power. I am only concerned with individuals and of course beginning with myself.

Each individual must be diligent to rid themselves of all vestiges of the sense of being the primary owner and enjoyer of what they perceive.

At this point in earth history I don't expect suddenly the world will take the example of the hare krishna's and 'puff' like magic all the world's problems will be solved. Ain't gonna happen.

However those that set the example that no one may follow have their reward already simply because they have pleased Krishna by their attempt. Real success is not measured in terms of temples constructed, books written and sold as desirable and wonderful as these accomplishments may be. Real success is pleasing Krishna and that is only by loving Him.

A beginning step in learning to love Him is giving up the false conception of ownership.

Our outer world is a reflection of our inner world. No outer world solution is possible without an inner change of world view.

Here is the worldview that will change the world.

TRANSLATION Sri Isopanishad mantra 1

 

 

Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.

 

No one person (the Capitalist dream) or the populace as a whole (the false oneness of communism) can solve our problem.

It all belongs to the Lord.

theist, you missed this paragraph, which changed my life when I read it 40 years ago:

 

In the Vedas, the above-mentioned four activities are prescribed in the regulative way so that there will not be any undue competition for sense gratification. But Srimad-Bhagavatam is transcendental to all these sense gratificatory activities. It is purely transcendental literature which can be understood only by the pure devotees of the Lord who are transcendental to competitive sense gratification. In the material world there is keen competition between animal and animal, man and man, community and community, nation and nation. But the devotees of the Lord rise above such competitions. They do not compete with the materialist because they are on the path back to Godhead where life is eternal and blissful. Such transcendentalists are nonenvious and pure in heart. In the material world, everyone is envious of everyone else, and therefore there is competition. But the transcendental devotees of the Lord are not only free from material envy, but are well-wishers to everyone, and they strive to establish a competitionless society with God in the center.

Your right. In fact I never really concentrated on this paragraph before. Shows how only the devotee can be a genuine well wisher of all living entities.

It means you are holding a mental image of Ganesha in your mind.

Yes earth would become heaven or more.

We must remember Krishna when we die. I'm not sure if this is off any topic..

Yes and to help us do this we must remember Krishna when we take fruit from the trees and fields and use the energy derived from such blessings in His service.

Don't know anything about sanskrit but I love this particular verse.

Q.1) Plants are also having life and killing plants is also sin. So in what sense vegetarian food is better than non-vegetarian food, in terms of killing or 'sin'?

SWAMIJI: This is a very good question. It is true that plants also have "life" and killing plants is also sin. So the best way to observe total non-violence is to follow "Shiloncha Vraththi". That is to take only those fruit fallen from the trees, plants. In this way we are doing harm to none.

This is not exactly true. It is true the plant is not being harmed but what about all the insects one crushed beneath one's feet as he walks towards the tree to pick up the fruit on the ground.

Becoming a fruitarian is an advanced ahimsa practice but it is far from perfect. There is no perfect karma free activity apart from doing everything in the service of Krishna (Allah).

Now there are two reasons to say that vegetarian food is having insignificant sin. Many of the plants like rice, wheat etc. are having life only for one crop time. Once their yield is over, they die, even if we don't cut them. So by cutting those plants we are doing we less sin or no sin at all.

Same point. How do you harvest wheat or rice without killing the small creatures that on or near these plants? There are still karmic implications.

This is one reason Srila Prabhupada teaches one should not be proud of being a vegetarian (or vegan).

Certainly what is recommended by the Swami is far less sinful then animal slaughter and should be followed

Next we need to know why certain acts are sinful. Each and every life (plants, animals etc) has come to this world, to do "sadhana"(efforts), to get better life and finally get "moksha". Whenever such "sadhana" opportunity is cut short, it becomes sin. For plants there is no much "sadhana". They can not do any kind of physical or mental activities, in terms of "sadhana". So by cutting them, we are not doing many harms to their "sadhana" or reducing their opportunity for "sadhana". So it is not sinful. But animals can do a good amount of "sadhana" by means of physical and / or mental activities. By killing them, we are cutting short their opportunities to do "sadhana" towards moksha. So it is more sinful.

Without getting into the sidetrack of animals doing sadhana or not I will say I don't think they do and this is no valid reason for not killing animals.IMO

No you are not the only one to understand the need for simple living and high thinking. Unfortunately the numbers of those that understand this are too few. it's hard to be simple in a society based on sense gratification.

12. Cost of meat is reasonable since all aren't non-vegetarians

I do not mind if some people are pure vegetarians. However they should not condemn non-vegetarians as ruthless. In fact if all Indians become non-vegetarians then the present non-vegetarians would be losers since the prices of meat would rise.

You have not factored all the environmental damage into the cost let alone the karmic reaction that awaits you for all this cruelty. "What we sow we reap."

Sow acts of compassion brothers.

11. Over population of cattle

If every human being was a vegetarian, it would lead to overpopulation of cattle in the world, since their reproduction and multiplication is very swift. Allah (swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows how to maintain the balance of His creation appropriately. No wonder He has permitted us to have the meat of the cattle.

 

This is another absurd statement.

It is the factory farm industry and the demand for meat that is the reason there is already a severe over abundance of cattle. We don't see them in the west because they are kept penned up in vast cattle prisons called feed lots.

There are so many in fact that the over abundance of cattle is by far the #1 cause of environmental damage in the world today.

And why do you suppose that unless humans eat some species it will go out of control and take over the world? Each species have their natural predators in the animal world to keep the balance.

Human life is meant for cultivating spiritual , that is godly qualities and one of the most important is compassion. Muslims should stop wasting time trying to convert Hindus to meat eating and spend more on themselves developing compassion.

Basically humans are on earth to be caretakers of this part of God's estate called Earth. Caretakers is what is really meant by the Bible where it says God gave man dominion over the earth. The christians take it to me we can do whatever we want with the place and it's inhabitants but that misunderstanding is due to their foolishness only.

It's like a rich man leaving trusted caretakers to watch over his estate while he is away. He expects them to keep the house clean and in good repair and to see that the animals are properly cared for and protected, and that the grounds and gardens are tended nicely.

Because the world is run by atheists and so-called theists who care nothing for the service of God that the world is now in the shape it's in.

Sound ecology should be centered on the truth that we are God's servant and we need to act accordingly.

Here is a video that I know Om Hari will especially enjoy.

http://www.nonviolenceunited.org/veganvideo.html

10. Killing a living creature with two senses less is not a lesser crime

Once a vegetarian argued his case by saying that plants only have two or three senses while the animals have five senses.

Therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime than killing an animal. Suppose your brother is born deaf and dumb and has two senses less as compared to other human beings. He becomes mature and someone murders him. Would you ask the judge to give the murderer a lesser punishment because your brother has two senses less? In fact you would say that he has killed a masoom, an innocent person, and the judge should give the murderer a greater punishment.

In fact the Qur'an says:

"O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good"

[Al-Qur'an 2:168]

 

Yes killing a plant is a lesser crime than killing an animal just as killing a human is more of a crime than killing an animal.They are all crimes but it is a question of degrees and situation.

For example, it is no crime killing a human or animal that is trying to kill you. Or to kill an animal if you have no choce for surviving without eating it's flesh.

It is however a great crime to enslave, abuse and then slaughter an animal just for the pleasure of the senses as in wanting to taste it's blood and fill your belly with it's flesh.

Your quoted verse makes no objective sense outside of your belief system.

"Eat all that is on the earth...", Oh, humans too?

."...that is lawful...." It may be "lawful...", under mans law's perhaps but not under the higher law of God which uses compassion as a instrument of measurement.

"...and good." Check out the following video and show me wherein lies the goodness.

http://www.nonviolenceunited.org/veganvideo.html

"my approach to the issue has been fanatical and self-righteous" --but this was your unique & endearing attractive quality.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Don't worry. I never have been able to change overnight. GOT IT?

Another point is that if someone doesn't like to perform deity worship themselves, they can still go to a temple and witness the deity worship in the temple. The effect is almost same, though slightly different.

Very true. This has been my only connection to formal Deity worship and has been very helpful in the past At home perhaps a picture of the Lord to which I occasionally collect flowers and place before the picture.

God consciousness and devotion to the Lord is not a static narrow thing. Arjuna engaged in worship by shooting arrows into the opposing parties on Krishna's instructions.

Hearing and chanting is stressed though. The best part of any temple visit has always been the congregational chanting.

Thank you for the generous replies. I am learning that more important than 'being right' on certain issues is how we relate what we have learned to others.

ps Sarva, where you been?

9. Even plants can feel pain

They further argue that plants cannot feel pain, therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime as compared to killing an animal. Today science tells us that even plants can feel pain. But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being. This is due to the inability of the human ear to hear sounds that are not in the audible range i.e. 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz. Anything below and above this range cannot be heard by a human being. A dog can hear up to 40,000 Hertz. Thus there are silent dog whistles that have a frequency of more than 20,000 Hertz and less than 40,000 Hertz. These whistles are only heard by dogs and not by human beings. The dog recognizes the masters whistle and comes to the master. There was research done by a farmer in U.S.A. who invented an instrument which converted the cry of the plant so that it could be heard by human beings. He was able to realize immediately when the plant itself cried for water. Latest researches show that the plants can even feel happy and sad. It can also cry.

 

No denying that plants are living things and have a degree of sentience. You may be interested in the work of Chandra Bose who in the late 1800's invented a sensing machine that could read the emotional reaction of plants. I saw this demonstrated on TV in the late 1960's. Sensors were attached to a plant and a member of the audience was given a pair of scissors and told to cut a leaf of the plant.

As the person with the scissors started towards the plant the plant registered a sever reaction which we were told measured it's fear. Now this was before the person with scissors even touched the plant. Somehow the plant picked up on the intent of the person to cut it and reacted to that. The plant was never physically harmed.

Now consider how the sheep or cow feels when someone comes towards it with a knife to cut it's throat. Think of this next time you start to eat the flesh of some slaughtered beast. Think of how they suffered for your need to taste their bloody flesh.

All you have done with this argument is to strengthen our side's position to cause as little suffering as possible to others while on Earth.

9. Even plants can feel pain

They further argue that plants cannot feel pain, therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime as compared to killing an animal. Today science tells us that even plants can feel pain. But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being. This is due to the inability of the human ear to hear sounds that are not in the audible range i.e. 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz. Anything below and above this range cannot be heard by a human being. A dog can hear up to 40,000 Hertz. Thus there are silent dog whistles that have a frequency of more than 20,000 Hertz and less than 40,000 Hertz. These whistles are only heard by dogs and not by human beings. The dog recognizes the masters whistle and comes to the master. There was research done by a farmer in U.S.A. who invented an instrument which converted the cry of the plant so that it could be heard by human beings. He was able to realize immediately when the plant itself cried for water. Latest researches show that the plants can even feel happy and sad. It can also cry.

 

No denying that plants are living things and have a degree of sentience. You may be interested in the work of Chandra Bose who in the late 1800's invented a sensing machine that could read the emotional reaction of plants. I saw this demonstrated on TV in the late 1960's. Sensors were attached to a plant and a member of the audience was given a pair of scissors and told to cut a leaf of the plant.

As the p3erson with the scissors started towards the plant the plant registered a sever reaction which we were told measured it's fear. Now this was before the person with scissors even touched the plant. Somehow the plant picked up on the intent of the person to cut it and reacted to that.

Now consider how the sheep or cow feels when someone comes towards it with a knife to cut it's throat. Think of this next time you start to eat the flesh of some slaughtered beast. Think of how they suffered for your need to taste their bloody flesh.

All you have done with this arguement is to strengthen our side's position to cause as little suffering as possible to others whle on Earth.

Tenali Ram

No one is getting worked up. This is a discussion forum. An article was posted from one side and the other side is responding.

Dear Forum members and visitors, especially those that identify themselves as Hindus.

I just had a revelation while posting a reply on another thread. It was concerning the word and common understanding of the word Hindu. I have been stubbornly and rudely arguing over the definiton of the word Vaisnava. My opinons on the matter have not changed but I can now see my approach to the issue has been fanatical and self-righteous.

For this disturbace I apologize and sincerely regret my thoughtlessness. I will be more sensitve in the future to other's feelings. Surely the Lord will show me how to do this without compromising on siddhanta.

Please forgive me.

Now I owe a similar apology to a certain Christian forum.

:silent:

8. Even plants have life

Certain religions have adopted pure vegetarianism as a dietary law because they are totally against the killing of living creatures. If a person can survive without killing any living creature, I would be the first person to adopt such a way of life. In the past people thought plants were lifeless. Today it is a universal fact that even plants have life. Thus their logic of not killing living creatures is not fulfilled even by being a pure vegetarian.

 

This is true. It is impossible to live in the material world without killing. We have no choice. Even breathing or brushing our teeth involves killing. This is why the material world is also called Martya-loka, the place of death.

However we do have a choice in in what we kill and the amount of suffering we cause to other creatures when it comes to what eat. To try and equate eating a salad with slitting an animals throat though is pure silliness.

7. Hinduism was influenced by other religions

Though Hindu Scriptures permit its followers to have non-vegetarian food, many Hindus adopted the vegetarian system because they were influenced by other religions like Jainism.

 

I'll let the Hindus here deal with this one.