theist

You are talking as if Srila Prabhupada is not now living. We are just not on the same page. No problem. But you are still emphasising an embodied guru necessity that doesn't exist IMO.

I only visited Radha Kunda on three separate occasions. Kind of amazing how a simple video brings back those same feelings as when I was there. My body can't take India so I may never go back (with this body) but perhaps if I can get some devotion in my subtle body Krishna will let visit during some night excursion.

I accept Babhrus observations on this matter. I noticed that in the purport to SB 4.22.4 Srila Prabhupada uses the term sampradaya acarya's ...plural. To assume he was only talking only about the heads of different sampradayas or the most prominent I don't think would be correct. Prithu was consulting acaryas in disciplic succession meaning he was not performing his duties as a ksatriya whimically but under proper guidance. I would think the term could also be used for the originator of a sampradaya but I have never heard it used that way. It does seem clear to me that the sampradaya acarya for the GV's would be Lord Caitanya Himself. Personally it is my feeling that Lord Caitanya did start a fifth Sampradaya but what do I know that is only my own uneducated feeling on the matter. Prabhupada's hope was that his disciples would all surpass him tenfold in preaching accomplishments. That is the nature of the pure envy free soul. Jesus Christ wanted the same thing from His disciples. The devotee wants to see expotential growth in service to Krishna not that they want to be considered number one throught history. To think like that seems to be offensive to the nature of Srila Prabhupada instead of honoring him because it implies he was thinking like a materialist instead of a pure devotee of Krishna.

Yeah very good question. There has been much propaganda to the effect that Prabhupada is dead and gone by those that must have always wanted to take his place. They have made themselves known by their actions and words. I choose to avoid them just as one should avoid taking milk touch by the lips of a serpent.

That was a wonderful ten minutes. Thanks Jijaji.

I can't trace out the exact history of all such things such as who formally initiated who let alone the nature of their association and all these things. But fortunately since I know beyond a shadow of a doubt from Srila Prabhupada's books and letters and confirmed by BR Sridhar Maharaja that this is a siksa line. So that question is solved for me personally. Others who may be infatuated with idea of a "traditional" line coming through family members irregardless of realization I believe are misguided. It is a position that makes no sense to me. To think that pure bhakti is handed down in the genetic code orsomething is gross IMO but all I can do is state my position and let the chips fall where they may. It is Caitya gurus position to enlighten them and not mine. Can't get worked up over it. I am not convinced of this term Sampradaya Acarya. If Krishna choose to speak His Katha to me through some devotee that had no formal disciples. wrote no books or was even illiterate, was blind and deformed etc. then that person would be my personal Sampradaya Acarya or in other words my connection to the flow of transcendental siksa that is the essence of the parampara system the River of Life. I can't see the need for someone who has Bhaktisiddhanta as their guru to call Bhaktivedanta their 'Sampradaya Acarya', or someone who is a disciple of a disciple of Bhaktisiddahata even. Wouldn't that term best apply personally. One can have another particular person as their primary link to the parampara and still acknowledge the giganti contribution of Srila Bhativedanta Prabhupad. There is no competition for the title amongst genuine teachers. Only pretenders to the throne and their unfortunate disciples or kanistha disciples of a bone fide guru would think there was.

No Svarupa that is not my point at all. The point I am trying to say is Caitya guru is the one universal guru and someone like Srila Prabhupada is His manifestation. If I can attain this vision for real then I am free to acknowledge Caitya-guru in any of His other manifestations as spirtual master. This includes Srila Prabhupada's current disciples or anyone the Lord chooses to empower. So I am pro-embodied guru. But he MUST be realized and not just appointed or voted in by ecclesiastical body. But just as valid is the vani from a realized soul in book or tape form. I am trying to say we need to take advantage of Guru in the form that is already before us no matter of offical hook up or none. Everyone can approach Caitya guru right now in their heart. We need to stop mystfying the process of finding Guru. He is in our heart and in the external world also in a varietyof forms and the only way to recognize Him wherever He is is by His grace. So to find Guru within or without or both one must pray. Such a simple concept. Why all fuss and debates year after year. This is Krishna consciousness 101 IMO. I have not accepted Srila Prabhupada as my spiritual master. I have not in truth accepted Caitya guru as my spiritual master or Lord Caitanya or Lord Jesus Christ. This is all a work in progress. And the years I have been around mean nothing when it is understood that in those years I have done much more nonsense then sadhana bhakti. Somehow this subject mattr has caught my interest but as of yet I have no real standing in authentic God consciousness. It all remains a work in progress. Slow progress I admit but progress nonetheless.

I second that even though we don't agree 100% on everything (we do on most) and would only add that for our own peace of mind we must control our propensity to get angry.

I don't accept the vaidity of the term "living guru." It implies there is something call a dead guru. One should consider using the term 'embodied guru' or something like that. Vani was emphasised by Srila Prabhupada even when he carried a human form so why would vani be less important then vapu now? It makes no sense. And what is it about vapuh that is so important? Hearing from the vapu is the most important thing and other things like serving his form etc. are there also. Serving the form, cleaning cothes, cooking etc. are transcendental activities butof them all hearing is most important. The point is the most important thing about being in the associationof guru in vapu is the VANI that comes from his mouth. In every sense vani rules over vapuh in importance. To think differently would mean you think you can take advantage of guru's vapuh by being in the same room with him, hearing him speak, and then ignoring his instructions. This is of course ludicrous. People say they can't find guru and that only means they can't recognize guru when they see Him. How do we see Caitya guru? Through the verses in Bhagavad-gita and elsewhere where He is described. We see through the eyes of scripture. So now that we can see Him in that way what do we do? We approach Caitya guru through prayer, "Please O'Lord guide me to You, help me recognize your Divine Self when you appear as guru and in the shastra. Please reveal Yourself to me in all the manifestations You have taken to enlighten mankind." Start with Caitya guru. It is by the grace of Caitya guru that we recognize Him in human form. It is by His grace that we can see Him as he is in the verses of shastra and the instructions the spiritual masters left for us as they passed through this world. If we hear from the lips of a devotee without the grace of Caitya guru we will never be able to understand what he says. If we hear the words of the devotee as tapes or books we will not be able to enter into the spiritual understanding they contain without the grace of Caitya guru. Transcendental guru ultimately means Caitya guru who sometimes comes to us in one of His jiva forms. This is why we are told the perfect guru is to be accepted as God Himself because he indeed is the transparent via medium and Krsna's voice comes through him. He may even have his relative side but it is the transcendental side we are most concerned with. We don't accept guru as something apart from Krishna as in I'll accept guru now and later add Krishna to the equation. If we think like this we have not really accepted guru as he is but rather as we think him to be. This means we only have superficially accepted guru or it can be said we have not really accept guru yet. Accepting guru is also a process. It is much more than offering a pledge of allegiance during a ceremony. If we think we have realized guru but are not yet Krishna conscious then we fool ourselves. Accepting guru and accepting Krishna is exactly the same process, and this process is known as diksa. The word PROCESS cannot be emphasised enough IMO.

Maybe we experience that at some point. That is due to our less than glorious pasts in he material world. Even that is a beginning. Everyone starts the race from somewhere but nobody starts at the finish line.

No, no one is suggesting being an extremist. One needn't be a hermit to be unaffiliated with a particular group. Although in the western culture aren't we all forced to be hermits in a way? Ranting and railing against less then perfect or even bad association is not a cure for the problem. Sincerely seeking higher association will guaruntee one finds for Krishna will surely see to it even if He has to come Himself in guru form to teach you Bhagavad-gita. He will do this for just one sincere soul. Or He may arrage your early death and tranfer you to aother planet where such association is to be found. The point is if we don't have proper association the problem really lies within ourselves. We may not really want it but only fool ourselves into believing we do. I have ended that game in my life. I don't really want constant higher association. I am more comfortable with my slower, lazy pace in acquiring knowledge of God. I understand that when my intelligence becomes purified I will seek the higher association, embodied or not, with a passion. For the present I am just an embryo is the process of being born again into spiritual life (diksa). As an embryo I live as an embryo no need to pretend I am at a stage more developed than I really am. All I need to do to reach spiritual birth is to avoid aborting the process, trusting the process designed by krsna will take care of itself as long as I stay in my proper place.

Original ocean's 11. Never knew there was one. Now I get the joke. Your jokes are too esoteric sometimes.

No need. I heard them all long before you ever posted them. Time place circumstance is the way I look at it. As for myself I am quite happy being a lone camper.

Yes I recognize the infamous rat pack was at the core of scheme.

I knew Peter a little bit. Of course he couldn't accept another guru, his faith was already there in Srila Prabhupada. Funny I remember when the 11 had just starting staking their turf Peter and I got into a little argument over it. I said they were bogus frauds and he thought I was being very offensive. He even told me to wait ten years and I would be embarrassed I ever said such things. It's been more than thirty now and I haven't looked back. Glad to hear about his dream/vision. I accept his account without hesitation. Like I have said I accept the diksa ceremony as being necessary for temple altar work. No problem if the guru uses it to draw the disciple closer. Prabhupada afterall was trying to create a brahminical class and he instituted formal Deity worship. He brought Vaisnavism in a tradional "hindu" style. I am against the way people have come to view the ceremony however. people think they have become brahmanas due to the ceremony when in fact the focus should be on developing the qualities charateristic of a brahmana that we read about in the Gita. Both can work together but the qaulities are indespensible and compared to those qualities the ceremony lacks real importance. I believe cbrahma feels the same way and it is his style that people react to. That and his anti-GM stance. I believe he will come to soften that in time. Anyway I don't share his feelings on that front.

Thank you Amlesh for the kind words. Haribol

Real knowledge eliminates such ignorant superstitions.

Isn't it odd that we who take to this definition of diksa over just the ceremonial definition of diksa are the one's accussed of being anti-diksa?

I agree. Beautifully and succinctly said.

He has been on mine for awhile.

Another imposter. This is the price I pay for being famous. Don't be fooled by Newman being the dominant name on google images. They have it wrong. You can trust wiki however and if anyone is interested there is a very brief bio. on my life there as well, but please note they have no idea to my true origin for I existed long long before Mad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_E._Neuman

I am closer to Alfred E. Neumen than anything. Funny thing, I have identified with Alfred since I was a little boy. I may be morphing into a real life Alfred. But I am not worried...chanting the Holy name is wide open to the Alfred's of the world even though none of us are formally initiated. Hare Krishna!

I support all beef protests. But this is more of an anti USA beef protest, they just want "clean" beef. Why are those Buddhist monks there? Are they concerned with the cruelty to the cows or do they only want assurances that the cow corpse they consume is free from mad cow disease also. What is their motive. We have to challenge all these so-called religous/holy people on their animal slaughter practices. They like to parade around in their holy man garb while still taking part in acts of extreme cruelty. If you are a Buddhist them you must show compassion otherwise you are just another hypocrite.

Yeah we are just agates in the rough and Krishna is using us to smooth and polish each other up. Actually since we are all parts of God I am sure we will find ourselves to be much more than agates.

Past is past. We accept everything as a learning process and move on developing our character. When I was a child I remember this one uncle who was really into polishing agates he would find on the beach. He used this little machine called a rock tumbler. It just kept turning over and over and the pile of agates inside would tumble and roll over each other. After a prolonged period of time the agates would become extremely smooth and shiny. This is one way I view this forum. We are all illusioned condition souls in the rough of development however if we keep Krishna in the center we will eventually have all the rough edges smoothed out and we will also shine. If we hold onto resentments and negative feelings we only delay this process of development.