theist

I am one such person. My first memory goes back to when I was about seven. It does not take place on the subtle plane alone. It very much involves the organic body.

Yes, the real argument is with one's own conscience.

The points made about building something in line with distinct Indian design makes so much sense to me. It's being built in India and it will house the ancient Indian ideas (no matter how outdated) so the structure should reflect the same period as when those concepts were widely held. Both Western and Indian designs are beautiful in their own ways but why impose a western style on India? In some ways it could even be viewed as insulting by some as some form of colonization. Let it express the beautiful Indian design.

As most know I don't accept the Bhagavatam's cosmology as factual so I wouldn't want to see so much money spent to build it. It seems to me there are more pressing issues. Couldn't that money be better spent in creating two or three really nice alternative schools for devotee kids? But the subject is on the design. I think this design is reather unattractive or one could even say I think it's down right ugly.

Why invoke Prabhupada's name now and reject what he taught about other things to offer.? More is known now about how the commercial dairy industry works and what a grossly contaminated products commercial milk is. From hormones and pus to vit d from fish whatb to speak of the FACT that it is a product from enslaved and ill treated cows who will be sold for slaughter to meat producers and whose male calves are sent to be killed for veal as soon as they are born. Yes it does. Those cows are not protected and are ill-treated and soon to be slaughtered just as soon as they are unable to provide YOU with enough milk to make their continued existence profitable. There male calves are sold for veal immediately (within a few days) of their birth. YOU support these people...they work for you. The dairy industry is really just another arm of the slaughter industry If you bought your milk from protected cows then that would mean that much less $ for the cow killers. You support them with you purchase which is really not only a purchase but it is an order for more of the same. Further one could say the cows are going to die anyway so what is the difference if we kill them now? you can juggle words endlessly to avoid looking a the truth. The truth is you support, WITH KRISHNA'S LAXMI, and industry which tortures and slaughters cows. The fact that some portion of that industry keeps cows alive long enough to drain their milk supply is hardly a justification for supporting their work. And you preach all the people who follow an Iskcon calender and "miss the true ekadasi" are going to punished as cow killers!!!! I used to avoid buying vegetables from stores that also sold meat and I would again if I could find such a place where I live. karmic reaction is not the consideration, the cows welfare is. Ideally devotees should circulate $ back and forth within the devotee community as mch as possible. This nullifies your previous rationalization that buying milk doesn't kill cows because they will be killed for the meat anyway. So under the same reasoning why not use leather and soap? You should add commercial milk to the list along with leather and soap to remain consistent. I am sure you do. You were expecting universal approval of your beliefs and instead you have been taken outside your comfort zone and are being asked to do some serious soul-searching as they say on some of your own practices. It's uncomfortable but it is a good thing to be challenged in our beliefs. It either strenthens us when we are right or helps us get rid of some baggage we don't need to carry anymore.

To laugh or cry is the question.

OMG Vraja. You have no idea what a hole you are digging for yourself. I am with cbrahma on this. Try as you might friend you will never establish a holy heart by adding more rules to follow. People who don't kill cows for their meat leather or milk can accidently eat grains on ekadasi and receive the same karma that is dished out to those who kill cows. YOU are the cow killer here and justify it by your little rituals and therefore consider yourself sinless even though a compassionate heart woulkd see the plight of the cows and boycott the dairy industry karma or no karma. A Passage from the Bible comes to mind. I hope no one will be offended. "The righteous of man is but filthy rags before the Lord."

This is the one that took a chunk off my cemented wall of a heart. The photo won a Pulitzer prize taken during the Sudan famine. The vulture is waiting for the child to die so that it can eat him...tragedy!

Whatever. I don't want to argue about it.

WOW! What a powerful presentation!

It's not your beliefs that are tiresome it is your need to endless argue.

I believe it also appeals to the so-called intellectuals. First we have to look at the materially conditioned mind for advaita never appeals to an enlightened person. Advaita is a reaction to the reality that we jivas are all the eternal subordinates of one Supreme Person and He is the Prime Enjoyer. Every soul that enters material consciousness is bothered by this fact. After becoming sufficently frustrated with countless attempts at enjoying life from one end of the universe to the other from grossest point to the most subtle the jiva is forced to admit there is no satisfaction to be found in matter. This frustration now is co-existing with his original material desire to be the Prime Enjoyer with no one above Him. So he isforced to be open to an adjustment in his plans. No longer will he try to dominate and exploit matter in an attempt to enjoy. He now will try to forget the whole thing, including himself, and instead of madly chasing one desire after another like a dog perpetualy chasing it's tail, he will attempt to purge himself of all desires and just stop running in circles and instead remain motionless using the reasoning that chasing desires causes misery and therefore not desiring must equal bliss. And further to remain in a desireless state he must also forget the himself eternally as an individual being because individual beings are what exhibit individual desires. Materialist scientists are coming to be Advaita and Buddhism as the esoteric philosophical component to their already established no-self philsophies. The drgies and drop outs don't need to understand it phiosophicaslly beyond a few slogans propogated by their so-called gurus like Ram Das and others. "Iam you and you are me.....I am God You are God" etc. These ideas are an adjunct to their drug trips (LSD types) or feed into their already established suicidal tendencies such as alcohol, heroin types and other burned materialists. To put it very simply Advaita and it's poorer cousin Buddhism are both highly sophisticated suicide cults which appeal to both the so-called intellectuals and hippy drop outs. Beyond this combination of accepting and renouncing material life there exists Bhakti and one who enters this transcendental realm of dedication to the Supreme Lord is known as a Vaisnava or devotee of Krishna.

You are so completely misguided on what constitutes either Vaisnavism or Advaita or possibly both.

Not evading you brother I simply find your anti-anything religiousness tiring. It is simply far different then what I believe. We are on the same page when it comes to people arguing religous rules are the only way to God's grace, We know that is bs and say so. But I also look at religion from another angle and see it as a valuable stepping stone towards transcendence. If one has a God given talent for constructing temples churchs mosques or other places dedicated to the communal glorification of the Lord then let them express that with all their abilities. The problem that arises is people come to believe God only lives in the structure they build for Him. That is, God only exists in our church and not your temple. This is classic kanistha mentality. Eventually with a little sincerity and grace they start to see God in other peoples religion also. Maybe only expressed minimually but present there nontheless. Then they start to see in Him in their own heart and in the hearts of other religionists. Then also in the hearts of the atheist, animal, plant, microbe, atom, stars and all that lies between. Religon is indespensible in society and only becomes a problem when we allow ourselves to get stuck anywhere along the progressive path short of complete realization of Bhagavan. We should not constantly condemn the religous urges of others when they are expressed. We should be encouraging people of all religions as well as those of none to keep seeking higher truth just as we are being encouraged to do so. I see it like people climbing a ladder. Say one person is on the fifth step and another is on the first step. Should the man on the fifth step tell the man on the first step not to bother with steps two, three and four because they are too low but instead just come on up to step five? Of course not! That is only a prescription on how to fall completely off the ladder. He should instead encourage him to step onto the second step, maintain a firm balance and then proceed further to the next step as he himself must also be doing with the sixth and seventh steps. This is what I see in Prabhupada's teachings. The Christian Buddhist or Muslim can iimprove their spiritual station by taking up the chanting of Christ Buddha or Allah. In Prabhupada's teaching I find the narrowest, most concentrated and centered thought on Krishna alone but since Krishna is all pervasive that narrow fixation on Him also allows for the most broad mindedness toward others approaches to God to be held by His devotees. God consciousness is not only progressive in the material world but it is eternal so because Krishna is unlimited and ever expanding. Acintya. Religion with it's various forms, rites and rituals has it's proper place in this progression.

Yes even the occasional retreat for a short period of time can be off great benefit. No effort towards God consciousness is ever in vain. Impressions gained through austerity and intense prayer can be life changing. "A little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." -Krishna

The individuals who take advantage of monastic life benefit and society benefits by supporting the efforts toward God consciousness in the citizens. Not trying to sell you anything. Can't wait until you get past this need to argue with everything anybody says.

Better monastaries than hellish factories. Well perhaps we have no perfect examples in recent history but that is not the point. Can't you see the value in a society structured so that everyone makes spiritual advancement even while engaged in their ordinary work on up to supporting those who try to go 100% into a life of bhajan and contemplation?

Let me approach the question this way. Is there anything a fully realized devotee of Krishna cannot give give you to raise you up to being a similarily fully realized devotee of Krishna?

Renunciation is a big topic. Better to renouce the world then become more entangled in it. You provide proof that renunciation alone will not lead to love of Krishna but that has never been in question. These particular monks and nuns were not just renouncing they were chanting and praying an actively seeking a personal relationship with God, that is bhakti-yoga. The structure of today's society looks down on such places as a waste of time whereas a proper human society would see providing such places as a main focal point for the public welfare.

So your conclusion is that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples outside of Indian born brahmana's can become guru because there is no possiblity of there having taken such a birth themselves. Prabhupada taught the principle that anyone who knows the science of God and be guru. You strike me as a nice fellow Vraja but you are being sorely mislead. Who is the author Guru Nirnaya Dipika? PS Monkey on a Stick was not written by devotees.

That referrence doesn't relate to the context of the conversation cbrahma.

It means the Lord can come to draw people to Himself and preach voidism. Take Buddha's mission for example. Eventually the attraction to Lord Buddha especially if strengthened by chanting his name, will overcome the defects in the philosophy and that soul will be free from the passing interest in voidist philsophy. Take the example of Christ. He manifested in the midst of a tamasic religion that had become montheistic due to Moses in order to elevate it into the mode of goodness so his followers could receive yet more specific knowledge on the actual nature of the one personal God they were crudely attempting to worship. "Not animal sacrifice to destroy sins but self sacrifice in devotion to the Supreme Lord as the means to please Him." On a level more in common to the one we live in there was George Harrison who could do more for spreading the Holy names as a Beatle then living shaved up in the temple.

A most wonderful letter. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> 1957: May 7 Kanpur Sri Padampat Singhania, Kamla Tower, Kanpur My dear Sri Padampat Ji, In continuation of my yesterday's letter, which I hope you have duly received by this time, and with reference to your request of submitting the way of powerful Mantra for broadcasting all over the world, I beg to inform you further that in every Mantra the prefix of Namah is generally added. Just for example you said the other day Namah Sivaya. Now this Mantra is practically indicating the holy name of Lord Siva. Na means negation and Ma means false ego or Ahamkara. Therefore Namah means surrendering to the name Siva. In other words to accept the supremacy of Lord Siva means Namah Sivaya. Therefore the conclusion is that in Mantra the name of the deity is unavoidably amalgamated. And in the Mantra the spiritual power, by the Rsis like Narada etc. is surcharged like the copper is electrified by magnetic force. The etymological alphabets are so surcharged with spiritual potency and as such all Mantra indicating the transcendental holy name of God or Godhead is to be understood in that way. When we chant the Mantra as were presented by the authorities--the process helps communication with the personality of Godhead by the sound waves as we have now experienced in the material world of physical waves vibrations. The powerful Mantras have such potency if they are sounded in the right direction. And by chanting the Mantras only one can spiritualise the whole existence as heat can expand on the spherical objects. Mantra Siddhi means complete liberation. Therefore, there is no difference between the holy name and Mantra. Man means mind and tra deliverance. That which delivers one from mental speculation is called "Mantra". "Mantra Siddhi" is to transcend the gross and subtle mental plane. The same meaning is for ___ In this age all the Mantras that can help us reaching perfection up to the plane of Godhead--has been still more concentrated into the Harinama. We find therefore in the Brhannaradiya Puranam (38.126) a particular stress on Harinama which is stated as follows: harinama harinama harinama eva kevalam kalau nastyeva nastyeva nastyeva gatir anyatha The above statement is very important in the following manner. There are two different processes for acquiring knowledge. The one is Deductive Process and the other is Inductive Process. In the Deductive Process we deduce the conclusion from the statement of higher authorities whereas by the Inductive Process we make a research in the truth by our own imperfect knowledge and induce a conclusion. Say for example if we want to know how man is mortal then we have to make a research in statistics of daily death occurrences. Rama dies, Syama dies, father dies, mother dies, he dies, she dies, etc. all these experiences may help us in the conclusion that after all man dies and therefore the conclusion man is mortal made. But the defect of this process of knowledge is that it may be that we have not seen a person who is still living even after some thousands of years. As soon as we get this information the whole conclusion that a man is mortal--is at once changed and we have to say that some men are mortal. In this way the research work of scientific thought are constantly changing because the very research work is done by person who is himself a condition by the four principles of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection. Therefore, the Deductive Process is more effective. Man is mortal we have heard it from very authoritative sources like the Vedas and we have accepted it. The Vedas say that stool is impure but the stool of the cow is pure. The Vedas say that bone is untouchable but the conchshell which is also a bone is perfectly pure. For the common man the statements of the Vedas appear to be contradictory. But in spite of such contradiction, because we Hindus accept the Vedas as authority we accept cow dung as pure and allow it to be used even in the kitchen. So also we accept the conchshell. The conchshell is after all a bone of an animal but because it is accepted by the Vedas we allow conchshell to be used in the sanctified room of our family deity. If we examine in the physical laboratory or analyse it by chemical test we won't find any difference between the stool of a man and that of a cow or the bone of an ox and that of a conch. And yet the whole Hindu Muslim conflict, the whole struggle of Gandhi and Jinnah and the whole question of Kashmir problem in the UNSCO have arisen from this petty difference of bones only. In the Hindu temple the bone conchshell is already there but as soon as a Muhammadan throws a piece of bone of the ox in the temple--the whole trouble began, resulting in the partition of India and Pakistan. So an impartial mundane student who will enter into the research work of such bone affairs in the annals of Indian History--surely he will come to the conclusion of unrestricted obedience to the words of the Vedas or that of the Koran or that of the Bible that lead to all sorts of Jehad and crusade. As a matter of fact the so called intelligent persons of the modern age have taken the shelter of secularism on the strength of past unfortunate religious feuds. This is another type of nonsense. Therefore in the present age respect for Deductive Process is dwindling whereas respect for Inductive Process is increasing although we know so far the Inductive research is concerned the process has not been successful. The conclusion is that we have lost our faith in the traditional Vedic knowledge handed down from the Guru to Chela or from the father to the son, although such system of Deductive Knowledge from the authority is the most perfect form of knowledge. The ultimate truth which is far beyond the reach of our imperfect senses can never be known by such inductive research work. The imperfect senses could not even measure the distance of the physical product The Sun or the Innumerable stars in front of us--and what such imperfect senses can make a research in the Mantras which are purely spiritual affairs. We have to accept the Mantra and its potency from the Vedic source and follow the practice and principles only to arrive at reality of truth. Research work by imperfect senses is practically a revolt against the established truth. Let us therefore accept the Vedic injunction of Brihannaradiya Puranam I have already mentioned about this Mantra in my previous letter and I beg to confirm it further that the Name "Krishna" even up to the foreign words like God and Allah, if they at all aim at the Supreme Personality--then the Name is as much holy and potential as perfect is the Supreme Lord--because in the Absolute Realm or Spritual Nature everything is identical with everything as all of them are qualitatively spiritual and therefore pure, eternal, liberated and perfect. For all practical purposes if we systematically preach to chant the holy name of Godhead, I think no body even the religious fanatic will take objection to it. Every human being has a conception of the supreme truth. That conception is presented in some concrete shape. If therefore the Mussulman or the Christian denies to chant the name of Rama or Krishna we may ask him to chant the name of Allah or God respectively and I think therefore there will be no objection even by the Buddhists if we simply ask them to chant the name of Lord of Buddha in the systematic way. The systematic way means to avoid the ten different offences in the process of chanting, which are all philosophical truths. If by such propaganda of chanting the holy name, the filthy atmosphere of jealousy, bickerings, selfishness, falsehood and so many other affairs of the modern age--can be avoided, and if by such chanting the complete process of self-realisation can be achieved--is it not our duty to do this service by combined force. In this age of quarrel and fight everything has to be done by combined force to achieve ready success. As the topmost person of a group of large scale industries, your good personality knows better than me how combined forces and diverse energies make the particular industry a successful establishment. In the same way we have to combine the different forces of Sociology in men, money, intelligence and field work to make the spiritual movement a grand success. If we do not do that we shall be failing in our duty to serve the complete whole. No partial service or temporary benefit can lead us to perfection. The world is mad after such temporary benefit and partial service and it is our duty to change the face altogether by an authorized spiritual movement. The other day I was very glad to hear your ideas about it and in our next meeting I wish to say some thing about it as I have realised. Hope you are well. With my regards. Yours sincerely, Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta Editor--"BACK TO GODHEAD." </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Objections noted and no doubt there is truth to what you say. We can all acccept those monestaries must have had their problems also along with their successes. But I see Suchandra making a broader point. Even the attempt a living a renounciates life is made exceedingly difficult in an industrialized world. It's hard to be simple nowdays. Many of those who have an urge, no matter how ill defined in their own minds, to seek something more than materialism life are frsutrated in their attempt at everystep brnded as failures and end up the rough edges of society as drug addicts and derelicts. Afterall renuciation is the last thing the Capitaist wants to see in society and so the society is structured to almost force one to over consume and waste and the more one does so the more he is acknowledged and even praised as a successful man.

Thank you Suchandra for posting that letter which I have never seen before. It clearly shows the mission of Srila Prabhupada was always to spark the chanting of the names of God in whatever language or context (note Buddhism) the chanter was comfortable with. This shows clearly the broad vision of SP and the broadness of the chanting movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu stripped away from all the ritual and form of Hindu religiousness. He did bring that context also for that was the context in which he lived it but yet the only thing indespensible in this age is actually the Holy name itself. In any established religon there is a name for the Supreme Being already. The problem is not the lack of names or to persuade others to chant our favorite name over theirs. The only problem is people are not attracted to the Holy name they are already familar with. No other way, no other way, no other way then the chanting of the Holy Names.