theist

Yes, because He is united with Krsna he is deified. Spiritual master is the embodiment of the spiritual world. But that is not separate from the vedic sampradaya traditon as I understand it, that is the vedic sampradaya tradition.

Other similarly situated persons can be seen in the same way. Such persons are unlimited in number and only appear rare to us because of our fallen status.

What's the problem? Does it bother you to see his disciples worship him and exalt him in this way? Some of them feel they can never properly glorify their guru no matter what they do.

The problem arises when they fail to allow for similar feelings in others towards their guru. Then we have guru wars, "my guru is better than your guru,". This is childish. It is also why I feel it is immmature to preach a specific guru. Preach Krsna and allow others to be lead to the guru Krsna has for them and stay out of the way of that. Its none of our business if someone chooses to stick solely to Prabhupada's books or instead includes other works or accepts Narayana Maharaja as siksa guru or whatever. Some may be lead to a babaji lifestyle and others to a preaching lifestyle. That's between them and Krsna. Both have their cheaters and genuine teachers.

Back to Prabhupada for example. Many feel a special allegiance to him because it was this particular soul that risk so much and worked so hard for their own well being.So why should their gratitude not increase? Along with their growing appreciation for Krsna consciousness will naturally come a growing appreciation for their spiritual master.

Some plants grow better next to other plants. Some grow well in mixed environments. All need some room for individuality as each plant still needs to take in its own sunshine and root itself well in soil of bhakti.

Please give each other some room for growth and stop crowding each other in this matter so much. Mahaprabhu is the expert gardener. He is in control and we should not doubt it.

Yes, because He is united with Krsna he is deified. Spiritual master is the embodiment of the spiritual world. But that is not separate from the vedic sampradaya traditon as I understand it, that is the vedic sampradaya tradition.

Other similarly situated persons can be seen in the same way. Such persons are unlimited in number and only appear rare to us because of our fallen status.

What's the problem? Does it bother you to see his disciples worship him and exalt him in this way? Some of them feel they can never properly glorify their guru no matter what they do.

The problem arises when they fail to allow for similar feelings in others towards their guru. Then we have guru wars, "my guru is better than your guru,". This is childish. It is also why I feel it is immmature to preach a specific guru. Preach Krsna and allow others to be lead to the guru Krsna has for them and stay out of the way of that. Its none of our business if someone chooses to stick solely to Prabhupada's books or instead includes other works or accepts Narayana Maharaja as siksa guru or whatever. Some may be lead to a babaji lifestyle and others to a preaching lifestyle. That's between them and Krsna. Both have their cheaters and genuine teachers.

Back to Prabhupada for example. Many feel a special allegiance to him because it was this particular soul that risk so much and worked so hard for their own well being.So why should their gratitude not increase? Along with their growing appreciation for Krsna consciousness will naturally come a growing appreciation for their spiritual master.

Some plants grow better next to other plants. Some grow well in mixed environments. All need some room for individuality as each plant still needs to take in its own sunshine and root itself well in soil of bhakti.

Please give each other some room for growth and stop crowding each other in this matter so much. Mahaprabhu is the expert gardener. He is in control and we should not doubt it.

Having to protect holy places with bullet proof glass. Is there a more sure sign that we are in kali-yuga. This may have even convinced Sri Yuktesvar.

Hare Krsna

that was theist. i sometimes get logged out for a reason i have yet to understand.

that was theist. i sometimes get logged out for a reason i have yet to understand.

No guest , we are on the same page here, no doubt.

Babhru I don't think there is a formulaic way to present any issue really. Different minds speaking to yet different minds. The approaches and responses will always be varied.

Example someone may first meet me and be jarred by something I say, by my bluntness. Then that person may meet you and your approach may draw them in. Perhaps I broke the solid frozen soil and perhaps you planted the seed. Good cop bad cop.Breaking frozen ground always has a degree of violence in it. The thing is the law must be brought to bear as soon as possible. let them argue from the position of trying to rechange the law. Let's at least try to stop the bulk of the problem by using the law and educate further from there.

Great quotes LE. And from the late 1800's. Society has certainly digressed from there.

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

My response to your intitial post mention lawmakers,and your pro-choice stance from page one.

In reply to:

--

Babhru:

I believe that the choice should be left to the woman involved,

--

Why is that? I thought those ignorant middle-aged men were in the legislature to make laws protecting the weak.

I would be interested why you are pro-choice. I find that a difficult postion for a devotee.

...take the essence...SP letter to Krsnadasa 1972

--------------

Yes I petition lawmakers. I don't spend time anymore with explaining my position. I simply say I am 100% against abortion and I vote. I live in California. I also print my own flers and post them around UC berkeley campus and the surrounding area. They don't last long, they get pulled down rather fast in most places. I found some pictures of ripped apart fetuses on the web for that fast emotive impact. I gave up debating the issue on other forums like beliefnet. There are so many hard core baby killers out there that I just become enraged and the excersise is non-productive. I still drop by a leave a post now and then just to keep the opponents from thinking they have won the debate. My approach is just one of planting seeds. The results are up to Krsna.

Presently I am listening to the house of rep's debate on banning partial birth abortion. The vote will be later this afternoon I believe. Clinton vetoed it twice while president. I hope you didn't vote for him. Preaching against abortion while voting for those that have the power and desire to keep in place makes little sense to me.

How to get this point through to you Babhru is still a mystery to me. We have been talking of the LAWMAKERS since page one.

Here again is Prabhupada's clear statement on the issue.

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna."

How was Arjuna a disciple of Krsna? Is their some record of Arjuna being offically initiated by Krsna? Or was it Arjuna's sincere surrender to Krsna on the chariot before the battle?

Here again is Prabhupada's clear statement on the issue.

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna."

How was Arjuna a disciple of Krsna? Is their some record of Arjuna being offically initiated by Krsna? Or was it Arjuna's sincere surrender to Krsna on the chariot before the battle?

guess guest see you then.

Remember Krsna

You seem to have forgotten some part of my post O great communicator.

I wrote:"Devotees have a wider even more urgent message so there is no need for them to become extremists on any particular cause "

Babhru, for all your talk on communication when asked a simple question on the woman's right to choose, which could be answered plainly in one simple short sentence, you danced around so much I still don't know what YOU believe on choice. To mention how Roe might be overturned is not to reveal you feelings on choice. One can be against abortion and still for choice.

that abortion itself is a crime. A horrendous crime. You want to kill someone's body because they may become a shoplifter in the future? Does that make good sense to you?

Of course the question has been on the reversal of the case of Roe v. Wade which made child murder legal in the USA.

It is good to be tactful(to a point) when speaking to individuals about any controversial topic, but one's postion should remain very clear.

But the questions has been concerning reversing this most horrendous mistake by the Supreme Court and for that tact will not do. Nor should direct action in protest at these abortion mills be ruled out.

Devotees have a wider even more urgent message so there is no need for them to become extremists on any particular cause but I openly admit to feeling uplifted when I hear of an abortion mill being blown up or torched by arson or even a murderer in a Dr. suit ("abortion provider") shot down. It serves as a good example to others who are thinking of profiting off the murder of the unborn.

Much like Prabhupada suggesting that Indira Gandhi should hang some of the rice hoarders in public and give their rice out free to the poor back when India was under famine in the early seventies. These demons were holding grain at the docks so the prices would rise while other Indians literally starved to death. He said their public hanging would stop others from doing the same.

To be clear I am for the immediate reversal of Roe v. Wade and for the making of abortion a crime of murder. Nobody is suggesting shouting in the face of some misguided woman on the street. So let's forget that strawman rhetoric right now.

I take it that if someone can't plainly say something similar to what I just did on the reversal of Roe v. Wade then they are pro-choice but trying to disquise their views for the present audience.

when copying and pasting a full article like that please let everyone know the author.

Thanks

when copying and pasting a full article like that please let everyone know the author.

Thanks

need to have the truth given to them in a straight forward manner from all sources. Family teachers and the society as a whole through clear cut laws.

But these rascal, this atheist class, they say, kim anyat käma-haitukam: Only lusty desires, that is the only reason. That is the only cause. The atheist class think like that, that This birth is taking place due to our lusty desires, but we do not want to take responsibility. Then kill him. What is that? Therefore they are making this abortion, killing of the child, as legal. The käma... We had some lusty desires, and we got it, but we don't want it. Kill it. That's all. This is going on. This is atheism.-lecture

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead does not allow anyone to act against the stringent laws of material nature; therefore illicit sex is punished life after life. Illicit sex creates pregnancies, and these unwanted pregnancies lead to abortion. Those involved become implicated in these sins, so much so that they are punished in the same way the next life. Thus in the next life they also enter the womb of a mother and are killed in the same way. -SB 5.14.9

 

 

So if we are held accountable for what we say and how we advise others, it might be a good idea to advise people to act in accordance with the will of the Supreme Lord, and we should make are societies laws reflect His will as far as possible.

Me too LE. Only I knew it was out there. The thought that abortion is even considered a choice by bhaktas is very discouraging.

I love krsna is sixteen and showing the effects of feminist programing. It is the prevailing viewpoint sadly. "Might be some pain so better to kill" is mayavada theory not compassion. Finger hurts so cut off the arm. She is young and is thinking this over which is a sign of hope.

Death is not a solution i_l_k. We may be able to come up with some extreme examples, but the VAST majority of situations demand that life be honored.

Well guest that was an interesting story. What it has to do with Christian bishops I do not know.

I see in that story an indictment of the society at large. Why should a victim have to carry the shame for being raped. or the child who is taken that birth? Shame goes to the criminal who committed the raped. Maybe if the society had been supportive of the woman she never would have thought of the well in the first place.

Even if some young girl is having loose sex with everyman in town still we should support her in her pregnancy for the child's sake. Let the properly appointed deva's do the judging.

Suicide, like abortion, is just not a proper option.

Guess guest,

I agree we can't formulate law based on what we think an individuals karma is. None of us can decipher that complexity. What I was meaning is that by forcibly stopping a woman from the emotional and selfish mistake of commtting an abortion we also save her the karma of the act, which I believe would cause her to experience a similar fate in a womb herself.

So having a clear strict law against abortion is good for the fetus AND the pregnant woman.

Babhru I will take you position as still pro-choice. I am through wasting time asking you the same question over and over.