theist

Yeah??? Attachment comes by hearing. The point is that attachment can also be called re-attachment.

It is a stalemate arguemnt. That is all I am trying to show you.

You guys took the "bate" (as beggar likes to call it (I, on the other hand, am only interested in "rebates").

 

Hehehe. Hahaha.

Even rebates are another form of bait.

You are welcome. Please free yourself from this ridiculous debate brother. No good can come from it.

It takes two to tango as they say. Svarupa is on a misguided mission and will not stop. Neither will Guruvani. They need each other. It is up to you to choose to be entangled or free.

Originally Posted by Beggar

How could you feel separation from Krsna if you are already with Krsna? ...

 

Don't be so quick to pat your own back Beggar you may only injury your arm. Your opponents could ask you, "How could you feel separation from Krsna unless you had known Him before?"

And since no one says they are consciously with Krsna while in the material state of forgetfullness you are still arguing with a strawmen.

Who in this arguement will wise up (become exhausted) first and realize it is unsolvable from the mental platform. Office pool perhaps?

I am with gHari. I didn't read Brahma's defense of Sridhar Maharaja past the first few lines because I knew I would be exposed to the other person criticism's also as he defeated them.

The amount of unmitigated gall it takes to set out on such a task to speak ill of Krsna's saints and to publically attack him is astounding. Why would anyone want to bath in that?

If one wants to find out the inner truth of any prominent devotee which is a wise thing to do, then they need to ask the Lord in the heart to reveal the actual situation. Why listen to characters over the internet crowing this way and that?

If Sridhar Maharaja inspires you towards pure love for Krsna then take it. If he doesn't then leave his words alone. But please don't bring that negative kind of sound vibration here.

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Maybe we end up arguing like little girls about this stuff because both sides present their position as fact. Let's face it - if Babaji can't say it, then nobody can. How is it we are so positive? Are we trivializing it - relying on words and logic? When we got to Goloka did we say "Hey, I've never been here before" or "Back at last - there are my slippers"?

This controversy so sounds like the bheda and abheda, dvaita-advaita debate:

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Quote by Beggar:

Go back through the hundreds of posts. Only the Sleeper-Vada side ignores opposite quotes from Srila Prabhupada. We attempt to harmonize them. Srila Saraswati Thakur said that, "religion means proper adjustment".

To harmonize apparent contradictions (the bheda and abheda) is proper adjustment.

The only genuine attempt at harmonization I have ever seen is in the form of gHari's quote above.

O course to be fair I don't read all these thousands of posts saying the same things over and over but the fact that everyday the same nonsense is all over the forum tells me there is no real harmonization happening.

You see harmonization on this topic takes place in a place past your words, thoughts and concepts. It will come as a spiritually vibrant intuition and in silence. Babaji taught us that in JD 15th chapter.

"Mauna is golden...golden."

Svarupa here is the problem. I copied and pasted quotes from others along with their responses into a new post. When you hit the quote button it only shows up as a quote from me.

I never noticed it before either and may have done it myself at some time.

To restate, I accept that the individual soul is dreaming the mayaic condition but take no position on its origin rather Goloka Vaikuntha or the Brahman.

That truth is quite apart from the origins debate. Anyone who cannot understand this has no real understanding of the basic facts of their own condition. We see this confusion in Guruvani's refusal to admit the soul cannot be contaminated. Or if we want to say forgetfullness of the souls' purity is a form of contamination then that's all right, its just semantics. As you know the soul is compared to the cloud covered sun. The sun is never clouded over only our vision of the sun is obscured. Or the sky is never polluted.

So we agree on everything except I take no position on origins.

Oh OK, if you say so.

Oh OK, if you say so.

The father's hope is that his children become pure devotees. That is also the guru's hope for the disciple. Awesome responsibility, nuturing and protecting the consciousness of those that Krsna has placed in your care.

Sounds as though they are off to a great start. There may be hope for you yet Murali. If they become liberated in Krsna consciousness they will carry you back home as well.

Did you ever meet Aniruddha Guruvani? I knew him. Nice guy but he had his ups and downs like everyone else.

Nice story with an essential message. Not taken as an historical occurence of course but the message is timeless.

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Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

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Again just for the record. I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul.

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That is not a quote from me. Watch what you are doing please and edit my name out immediately.

Thank You

Just leave it alone and stop driving devotees away with party spirit. And that's for all of us no matter what affiliation. The squabbling should stop; it is not favorable for bhakti or preaching.

 

Exactly. Posted at the same time. We are tracking together now bro.

Hi. I'm very new here. What kind of forum is this, anyway?

It is supposed to be about Spitirtual Discussions but most seem to mistake talking about and rehashing old news about religious institutions as Spiritual Discussions.

It is something like discussing the Catholic Church endlessly while ignoring the teaching of Christ.

I am sorry.

Krsna is everything. Guru knows Krsna. In that way guru knows everything.

To think that guru knows everything about everything (Krsna) is foolish.

"...but Me no one knows."

Is Kula advocating that we support modernity?

 

Are we to tread the path of the life extension movement?

 

Are we to worship at the temple of new stem techonolgy?

 

C'mon Kula give us all an update on how we can all benefit from living in the 21st century post-Soviet era!!!

Never seems to miss a chance to throw a jab at Srila Prabhupada by misconstruing his statement.

Maybe these different camps would agree to ignore each, if nothing else then to make it easier to ignore them.

One could also say,

I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I accept the tatastha position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

Which means that the Sleeper-Vadi argument that we don't get the "process of dreaming" is absolutely false. It is a smokescreen, as is the impersonlism charge, used when one cannot adequately support their position.

Gossip and behind the back name calling certainly establishes one's vaisnava credentials now doesn't it?

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This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

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Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

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Again just for the record. I absolutely 100% accept that maya is a dream state of the individual soul. However I take no position on where that soul originates from.

The process of dreaming is exactly the same rather the dreamer originated from the variegated Spiritual Sky or the Brahman.

I leave the origin for you all the battle over.

Beggar offered quotations from Jiva Gosvami citing the Chandogya Upanishad,. You called those ideas a fairytale. Don't you see that you cannot on one pretend to defend the true siddhanta of the Gosvami's and at the same time call the siddhanta they present fairytales?

I don't know a thing about the Chandogya Upanishad or Jiva Gosvami for that matter and I have no problem questioning anything and everything either says. I take that saying Question Authority as part and parcel of my very self while in matter. It is sage advice and I appreciate that you take a similar road. It is just that we can't take an opposing view to Jiva Gosvami and at the same time claim to be protecting his teachings.

This is my only point here.

Prabhupada told fairytales on occasion. Entire "shastras" were fabricated by some Gaudiyas and presented as "discoveries of ancient texts" to prove various points. Various Gaudiya Vaishnavas came up with all kinds of contradictory rasika stories and interpretations, some of which are listed above. That is because most Gaudiyas claim to pursue the "higher truth" or "subjective truth" as opposed to a historical of factual truth. Yet the Goswamis laid the most solid foundation of our siddhanta precisely on the scriptural basis.

 

I tend to believe things pretty much all Vaishnavas believe, and which are based on shastra (even if such shastric basis is somewhat extrapolated, like the quote from Chandogya Up.).

And you think I'm dangerous. I think the real danger lies in those that take on the externals of initiation into a specific sampradaya, go by their initiated names, present themselves as representing a particular line of decending teachings and then change those teaching to suit their mind whims and then present a twisted version of that line teachings, in this case GV.

You sure have an exaggerrated view of your scriptual knowledge and understanding.

No problem if you have different views from these acaryas. I do in some cases. The problem is in claiming to be the real representative of those teachings. That is cheating.

As for me I don't claim to be anymore than a basic theist with a developing interest in learning about the higher rungs of theism. There is a certain freedom in acknowledging our real positions. So much less baggage to carry.

Even materialistic yogis are said to be able to have 7 or 9? different forms simultaneously.

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If the soul is indivisible then how can some souls be in Krsna lila and Gaura lila at the same instant?

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This is not possible for jivas like you or me, even when we reach topmost perfection.

Sometimes fairy tales are spun among Gaudiyas in order to add flavor to the stories, but there is no shastric basis to such notions.

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This from a guy that claimed to represent the Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas just one hour ago.

Anything he doesn't understand he calls a fairytale while at the same time claiming to believe in those things he has no way of verifying independently of just by hearing from the Vaisnava acaryas. Sheesh