theist

It is difficult to avoid seeing references to sex when it is being used to sell everything. Using sex to sell renunciation is funny.

Reminds me of a flyer I saw once advertising a gathering for alcoholics that wanted support in quiting. At the bottom of the flyer after describing the event the last line read... "Champagne Will Be Served."

Funny you mention this theist I was just reading something about Children of God the other day, about the now leaders son who killed her secretary then himself after growing up in the church with molestation and incest abuse. Their process was called flirty fishing and eventually they progressed to just flat out promises of and actual sex to recruit.

It is a slippery slope to use any form of false enticement and objectifying young girls hardly strikes me a a proper thing to do.

Samia,

I was doubtful if any would remember them. Are they still around? I liked them when they first started up but their leader went whacky and started refering to the instructions of M. Kaddhafi...yeah that one... the leader of Libya. Downhill from there. Sounds like the downhill slide was even worse than I thought.

By HH [1] www.sivaramaswami.com)

Question: Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?

Answer: There are two points here, first that a cow gives more milk than a calf can drink, so it’s not necessarily that they’re being deprived. However a calf should be able to drink its mothers milk, and that happens when they’re being taken care of in a natural way in a gosala. The calves drink their mothers’ milk and the cow gives more milk. Also, if you just let a calf drink as much as they wanted, they’d get sick.

However, the modern system of simply farming cows, inseminating them so they’re constantly milking rather than allowing it to take place in a scheduled way — which is good for the overall health of the cow, so it’s not always giving milk, and it’s not always inseminated — that is certainly violent, and the answer to that is not to become a vegan, or to stop drinking milk. The answer is to drink milk procured only by the proper means. Reason being is Krishna drinks milk, it is part of our diet, and go brahmanya hitaya ca — a whole culture is based on drinking milk. It’s not something we are willing to sacrifice. Therefore, we need to have farming communities as Srila Prabhupada established, where cow protection is a priority. For this reason Srila Prabhupada said to keep as many cows as possible, which is a tall order.

But if we do keep as many cows as possible, and if we have cow protection, and if devotees and congregation members are actually protecting those cows and maintaining them, then we can have enough milk to provide temples and congregation members and everyone with milk.

Then you’re above this kind of criticism. You don’t need to say, “Oh welll, I’m a Hare Krishna, I’ve offered it to Krishna, and therefore I’m free from the reaction.” It is questionable if you’re free from the reaction. Why? Srila Prabhupada has made it clear that our duty is cow protection. Krishna set the personal example of cow protection. Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat.

Therefore Srila Prabhupada gave us a very simple formula to defeat that argument, so that we don’t have to fall back on strawman tactics and arguments: he gave us cow protection, which is a completely friendly, non-violent, and inoffensive way to provide milk.

So therefore, I ask again: what are you doing about cow protection?

Yeah well everything has it's limits also. Anybody remember the Children of God from thr late 60's and 70's. They were young mostly ex-hippy newly convert "Jesus Freaks" as they were called. They would go out and sing about the Lord and were very joyous.

Eventually though to get more converts they started using the young woman to attract men to their group. It reached the point to were they were actually having sex with them to get new converts.

I think it best if we keep faith that the Holy name is all-attractive in itself and if we broadcast suddha-nama that will be most potent.

This is not why Krsna knows all time: "and therefore knows past, present and future". Are we to turn bhakti into a mechanical thing, not nirguna? One might ask: if it's all predestined and mechanical then why does Ksirodakashayi Visnu come along for the ride? Why should I bother doing anything - what's going to happen is going to happen? Why chant? Why remember Krsna? Where is the love? Love is now mechanical. I am a robot. I don't exist. I am Mayavadi.

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

Being under karmic law means we are being held responsible for the deeds done to satisfy our material desires. If every little thing is predestined then why do we have different karma's?

What is predestined is our prarabdha-karma. That covers the body type parents social staus education wealth general health etc. Prarabdha karma is based on our past deeds and drawn from our stockpile of karma (sanchit) for this particular birth.

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

We have to focus on what we mean by worship. For instance the difference between #'s 2 & 3 below.

WORSHIP <dl><dt class="func">Function</dt><dd class="func">noun </dd><dt class="ety">Etymology:</dt><dd class="ety">Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship</dd><dt class="date">Date:</dt><dd class="date">before 12th century</dd></dl> 1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)

2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

Considering definition #2. Can it not be act act of worship as reverence for the Supreme Being to show mercy to one of His children in need either materially and especially spiritually.

Worship is more than just ritualized offering of incense and flowers.

What do you mean by worship?

I dont buy that argument. Prabhupada insisted on accepting his authority in this matter as well. There was no room for a discussion, nor was the alternative understanding an acceptable option in his movement.

I am not selling this arguement. I am just repeating what Srila Prabhupada said in his letter to Krsna das as quoted above by Tripurari.

Krsna dasa once asked Prabhupada why there is a discrepancy between the views of Bhagavatam and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets. To this Srila Prabhupada replied, "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

The essence of Srimad Bhagavatam is spiritual.

Thanks for that mature understanding, it is absolutely incorrect to claim in the 21st century that the moon is further away than the sun. I even remember how Amoga dasa in 1977 gave class claiming that actually the world is flat. One devotee Somendrinoth dasa, who studied science at university, convienced himself that, yes, the world is flat, then Amoga gave another class saying no actually its round. Somendrinoth was so annoyed because he had convienced himself that the world was flat - within a week this expert book distributor left the movement.

And here is the fruit of placing importance on such things. Cosmology is not a spiritual consideration just because it is talked about in the SB.

There is another thread discussioning letters.

Hi. I am new to studying Hinduism, even after having picked up a few yoga books and books on meditation over the years. Most of the Sanskrit terms seemed to go over my head, because I wasn't really sure where to begin. This forum seems like a nice place to come to learn more, but a lot of the discussions seem to be very technical to me and it is hard to know where to begin. Could you please help me to sort out what I need to know as a minimum to be able to fully appreciate what I am reading?

And it gets more confusing when we start to realize that these sanskrit terms are understood in different ways by different schools of philosophy so one yoga book will use a term to mean one thing and another the same term to mean something else.

Sanskrit terms get used way too much for me. I largely ignore them and concentrate on the english meaning. People tell me some Sanskrit terms don't have good english equivilants but what can I do?

Hinduism is such a big tent with so many philosophers and religious idea's being housed under that word that in my opinion it has become virtually meaningless.

Srila Prabhupada has translated so much into English that we needn't understand sanskrit. Although there is much Sanskrit terminology in his writings that some of it will stick just by repetition all we really need to do is understand the english.

Patience. It is a frustration everyone experiences especially in the beginning.

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BUT WE CANT LET THE COMMON MAN UNDERSTAND THIS DEEPLY, THEREFORE, I HAD TO WRITE THAT WAY.

LOKESHAV

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Krsna's representative will always remain an enigma to the vast majority, even of his followers. How many sheep really know the stature of the shepard?

Some will minimize him concentrating on perceive faults and human like behavior. Others will create a mythological figure out of imagination and misunderstand him in that way. You can praise him and worship him everyday and still not have a clue as to who he is.

The point is no one will know the devotee as he is until they develop a similar taste and realization of Krsna consciousness. It is seen that very very few reach this level at anyone time.

So to me the analogy of the shepard holds true. The sheep have come to relie on the shepards direction and have some simple trust that he will not mislead them but to understand the inner workings of the shepard's mind is far from them.

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In sum, a spiritual master is responsible for his disciple's actvities as long the disciple behaves like a disciple. This probably only the guru can decide, is this behaviour still acceptable or is this a break away?

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Good point.

I agree. This point is 99.99 lost today in Christianity and they have come to think of Jesus as their eternal doormat...."I sin and He suffers."

Extremely important point. We must'nt follow suit.

Yes, they must have their meat. How can there be education without eating decaying animal carcass?

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As a new person here, I find the disputes make the whole site seem unwelcoming. My plan was to learn more about Hinduism and Yoga by coming here.

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Red Sox:It makes me question the authenticity of any of these ideas in vaishnavism.

And here is the fruit of all the squabbling. The real tradgedy. We all will be held responsible for our words as well as our deeds.

Krsna means the All-Attractive Person to the vaisnava. And it is through this beauty that Krsna draws all living beings to Him. By all the disputes and childish behavior among ourselves we are getting in the way of new people getting a glimpse of that beauty. This means we are not vaisnavas in spite of our beads, shaved heads, dhotis and rituals. Our behavior exposes us as obstructionists to the mission of all real Vaisnavas which is to expose others to the beauty of Krsna.

Let's change the tone and make AF a welcoming place for new souls which is in line with the desire JNdas no doubt had we he set this site up.

Please forgive me for all my past mistakes and feel free to call me on the future ones I will no doubt commit due to my deep seated bad habits.

Hare Krsna

Here is an idea. On this board and in the larger Vaisnava world body we have disciples and sudents of several different gurus and sometimes they may not see everything exactly ther same.

This is a simple fact that people are going to have to tolerate and live with because it ain't gonna change. That is just how it is.

To insist that another is wrong based on the words of your guru is not our position. For one disciple of one guru to forcably try to instruct the disciple of another's guru is rude and out of place. It is tantamount to demanding that that person accept you as their siksa guru and no one has the right to demand that of another.

Of course we can express the differences we see and choose to make known which one we ourselves accept but that is not placing any demand on another.

This arguing perpetually, which always results in name calling insults, is on the lower rungs of the kanistha-adhikari platform.

Time for us to mature and make progress to madhyam level.

Our fight is with the atheists and others that are dragging the earth planet into hell.

Material education and spiritual education. I am saying both are necessary, the schooling system provides material education. The spiritual education is left up to God and his path set for the student.

Yes both are neceesary and important. But only one is absolutely essential and that is spiritual education.

Who is in the better position at the time of death?

1. Bill Gates as the richest man in the world.

2. A homeless, penniless, illiterate vagabond who is Krsna conscious.

No problem being a scientist, warrior, academic, merchant or laborer as long as you are working in karma-yoga with an eye to bhakti.

Presently we have only material education only which at the very best has only temporary benefits, and even those benefits are in doubt.

"Simple living and high thinking."

[...]

The life history of many such devotees is almost the same because there is always symmetry between the early lives of all great devotees of the Lord. According to Jiva Gosvami, Maharaja Parikshit must have heard about the childhood pastimes of Lord Krishna at Vrindavana, for he used to imitate the pastimes with his young playmates. According to Sridhara Svami, Maharaja Parikshit used to imitate the worship of the family Deity by elderly members. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti also confirms the viewpoint of Jiva Gosvami. So accepting either of them, Maharaja Parikshit was naturally inclined to Lord Krishna from his very childhood. He might have imitated either of the above-mentioned activities, and all of them establish his great devotion from his very childhood, a symptom of a maha-bhagavata. Such maha-bhagavatas are called nitya-siddhas, or souls liberated from birth. But there are also others, who may not be liberated from birth but who develop a tendency for devotional service by association, and they are called sadhana-siddhas. There is no difference between the two in the ultimate issue, and so the conclusion is that everyone can become a sadhana-siddha, a devotee of the Lord, simply by association with the pure devotees. The concrete example is our great spiritual master Sri Narada Muni. In his previous life he was simply a boy of a maidservant, but through association with great devotees he became a devotee of the Lord of his own standard, unique in the history of devotional service. SB 2.3.15

OK I gotcha. You are right. And now I understand your specific referrence.

You've hit on it here Mahak. Something that has taken me 55 years to finally start to get. All my life it has been important to me to be seen as right. More than most people. I have long seen this tendancy of mine and knew I had to get beyond it but couldn't. Personal feelings of insecurity had a lot to do with it.

At long last I am learning another way. More and more I am just wanting to learn something new about Krsna and God consciousness. A vital aspect to that is sharing that experience with others. Sharing is a two way street. We offer what we have been given and hear from others what they have been given.

Rather we are exactly right in all our beliefs is not so important beyond the basics of theism. Krsna will not reject us because we carry misconceptions even at the moment of death, so why do we insist on accepting and rejecting each other on our perceptions of how many misconceptions they may carry?

Someone believes we fell from Goloka. Someone else believes we were never there. Factions take birth separating those that think one way from those that think another. Factions then battle.

A question arises. Which is more powerful the cohesiveness of chanting the Holy Names or the divisivness of different opinons on these less important matters?

That we have to ask ourselves before we take a rigid stance against other vaisnavas.

No one has ever commented on this proposal. That no letter from prabhupada to a disciple is allowed unless we see the letter the disciple wrote to him. ...

I wouldn't make it a rule of some kind but I have often wished the same although the question is usually obvious from his response.

These letters are a profound vehicle for creating false doctrine, and have been used consistantly for just that specific reason.

Scriptures themselves are used to create false doctrine. The material world is inhabitated by the cheaters and the cheated. I have solved the doctrine problem for myself. The only doctrine for life that I try to share with others is the necessity for chanting the Holy Names of the one Supreme Lord coupled with a ahimsa based lifestyle, the Golden Rule.

And if approriate to the conversation I will try to work in the basics of aham brahmasmi, reincarnation, the evil of birth death old age and disease. Basics and basics only.

Just as ridiculous if we never heard from King Pariksit, Sri Vidura, even Lord Chaitanya. What good are the answers by ramananda raya without the questioning of Lord Chaitanya.

Well often in Coversations we see that Srila Prabhupada will misunderstand a certain question and give an answer that doesn't seem to relate. I just follow the answer. As a matter of fact for me it has always been my experience that when hearing lectures or reading books I get answers to questions I never even knew to ask. Anwsers first.

But you all wont answer here either. What I want to see in order to consider the 1975 letter concerning guru tattwa to tusta krsna das without having access to the letter tusta wrote him, prior and subsequent written communication, confidentiality of the relationship between the guru and the disciple communicated with, the whole thing.

Same thing. Everything can be misused, not just letters.

There are tons of gems in those letters and I am thankful for the access.

I find the real puzzle is "How does Krsna create something different from Himself?" - unique beings with free will, personality, this tatastha energy, tatastha magic that seems so real, even to Him. Yet we're just a part of Him somehow, and somehow, different. Acintya. I'm very glad it's this way, no matter where I am, in this or any other world.

Acintya indeed. This is what separates God from the rest of us. How is it possible such a being could exist? It is not reasonable or fathomable yet it could be no other way.

At some point the small souls who think so highly of their intellects will tire of the need and attempt to fit the Lord into nice little prepackaged categories that fit nicely and orderly onto the shelves of their tiny brains. Then in a moment of stunned wonder they will only be able to say...."Acintya"!...and then they will begin to know.

Perhaps, but don't offenses often lead to misconceptions and vice-versa?

What perhaps? Of course they are misconceptions and lead to more misconceptions. That is why they must be dealt with separately.

If someone is right about something then admit it. If he commits an offense call him on it. Don't say he is wrong about the thing he s correct on and try to justify it by saying he made some offense in another area. That makes no sense.

Living entities require a field of activity (remember ksetra and ksetra-jna?). That field of activity, or real place, is provided by Krsna, through His various energies. Just like he provides the field of activity in the material and spiritual worlds, the marginal (tatastha) world is a real place provided by Him.

We just went over this.