raga
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Posts posted by raga
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I think many of us may not be aware of certain basic HTML tags used in refining the text. I'll contribute my few pennies.
<b> makes it bold </b> makes the bold stop.
<i> makes it italic </i> makes the italic stop.
<u> <u>makes it underlined</u> </u> makes the underlined stop.
<blockquote><blockquote> makes an indent begin.</blockquote></blockquote> makes an indent end.
<hr> makes a line to divide something.
<hr>
Then there are also tags which are used only on this bulletin board.
makes a quotation end.The button ENTER or RETURN when clicked twice makes a new paragraph.
Please help fellow people understand you better. Learn these simple things.
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Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila, 4.59-72:
<blockquote>
59.
rAdhikA hayena kRSNera praNaya-vikAra
svarUpa-zakti hlAdinI nAma yAGhAra
zrImatI RAdhikA is the transformation of KRSNa's love. She is His internal energy called hlAdinI.
60.
hlAdinI karAya kRSNe AnandAsvAdana
hlAdinIra dvArA kare bhaktera poSaNa
That hlAdinI energy gives KRSNa pleasure and nourishes His devotees.
61.
sac-cid-Ananda, pUrNa, kRSNera svarUpa
eka-i cic-chakti tAGra dhare tina rUpa
Lord KRSNa's body is eternal [sat], full of knowledge [cit] and full of bliss [Ananda]. His one spiritual energy manifests three forms.
62.
AnandAMze hlAdinI, sad-aMze sandhinI
cid-aMze samvit yAre jJAna kari mAni
HlAdinI is His aspect of bliss; sandhinI, of eternal existence; and samvit, of cognizance, which is also accepted as knowledge.
63.
hlAdinI sandhinI samvit
tvayy ekA sarva-saMsthitau
hlAda-tApa-karI mizrA
tvayi no guNa-varjite
O Lord, You are the support of everything. The three attributes hlAdinI, sandhinI and samvit exist in You as one spiritual energy. But the material modes, which cause happiness, misery and mixtures of the two, do not exist in You, for You have no material qualities.
64.
sandhinIra sAra aMza zuddha-sattva nAma
bhagavAnera sattA haya yAhAte vizrAma
The essential portion of the sandhinI potency is zuddha-sattva. Lord KRSNa?s existence rests upon it.
65.
mAtA, pitA, sthAna, gRha, zayyAsana Ara
e-saba kRSNera zuddha-sattvera vikAra
KRSNa's mother, father, abode, house, bedding, seats and so on are all transformations of zuddha-sattva.
66.
sattvaM vizuddhaM vasudeva-zabditaM
yad Iyate tatra pumAn apAvRtaH
sattve ca tasmin bhagavAn vAsudevo
hy adhokSajo me manasA vidhIyate
"The condition of pure goodness [zuddha-sattva], in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead is revealed without any covering, is called vasudeva. In that pure state the Supreme Godhead, who is beyond the material senses and who is known as VAsudeva, is perceived by my mind."
67.
kRSNe bhagavattA-jJAna saMvitera sAra
brahma-jJAnAdika saba tAra parivAra
The essence of the samvit potency is knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Lord KRSNa. All other kinds of knowledge, such as the knowledge of Brahman, are its components.
68.
hlAdinIra sAra prema, prema-sAra bhAva
bhAvera parama-kASThA, nAma??mahA-bhAva
The essence of the hlAdinI potency is love of God, the essence of love of God is emotion [bhAva], and the ultimate development of emotion is mahAbhAva.
69.
mahAbhAva-svarUpA zrI-rAdhA-ThAkurANI
sarva-guNa-khani kRSNa-kAntA-ziromaNi
zrI RAdhA ThAkurANI is the embodiment of mahAbhAva. She is the repository of all good qualities and the crest jewel among all the lovely consorts of Lord KRSNa.
70.
tayor apy ubhayor madhye
rAdhikA sarvathAdhikA
mahAbhAva-svarUpeyaM
guNair ativarIyasI
"Of these two gopIs [RAdhArANI and CandrAvalI], zrImatI RAdhArANI is superior in all respects. She is the embodiment of mahAbhAva, and She surpasses all in good qualities."
71.
kRSNa-prema-bhAvita yAGra cittendriya-kAya
kRSNa-nija-zakti rAdhA krIDAra sahAya
Her mind, senses and body are steeped in love for KRSNa. She is KRSNa's own energy, and She helps Him in His pastimes.
72.
Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhAvitAbhis
tAbhir ya eva nija-rUpatayA kalAbhiH
goloka eva nivasaty akhilAtma-bhUto
govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi
"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with RAdhA, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hlAdinI]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."
</blockquote>
[For the record, the translations above are extracted from the Caitanya Caritamrta edition of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, and any additions in the translation are his, not mine.]
In the 64th verse above, it was declared how the existence of Sri Krishna Himself rests on His energy.
Essentially everything around Him, including His personal paraphernalia, consists of His energy. Have you ever read a description of Sri Krishna alone, without His paraphernalia (flute, ornaments, clothes etc.) floating in nothingness? This would be Sri Krishna without His energies. Actually it would only be "Krishna", because "Sri" denotes the feminine aspect present in Him, His energy.
Even it would not be "Krishna", because "Krishna" denotes the "All-attractive", and since there would be no "All" and consequently no-one to be attracted to Him, it would perhaps only be "AUM".
Anyway, even if He would be in such a state, you could not recognize it, because recognition of Him is of the nature of samvit-shakti.
zakti-zaktimator abhedaH -- the shakti and the shaktiman are not separate.
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]
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Originally posted by Shashi:
Somaone is telling me that Lord is can be existing outside the energies but it is the energies that cannot existing outside Lord.
I am suggesting that you mite be needing to understand the Gita where Lord is saying all is in Lord but Lord is not in all. Lord is telling about his most personal aspect and not so much the Narayan level wher he is all the pervading. As the Radha and Krishna Lord is independent.
Who is the someone who is telling this?
You might want to study together with the someone the Caitanya Caritamrta, the fourth chapter of Adi-lila, verses 59-72, where it is beautifully explained how everything in the spiritual world, including the Vraja-gopis, are a manifestation of this original spiritual energy, mahabhava-svarupa Sri Radha Thakurani.
I'll post them here for your consideration.
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Ram,
If you feel my standards of authority are acceptable, perhaps we may start a new thread to facilitate a clear discussion. Otherwise it may become bogged down by so many other contributions on other subject matters.
I'd say really if you want to have a discussion which extensively discusses the concept of niyama in the realm of Gaudiya-sadhana, I suggest you take the topic to "Philosophical and Theological Discussions" of Raganuga Discussions.
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Originally posted by ram:
Raga, you did not comment directly on my simple statement on niyamas. A person who is on the path of progress should follow the niyamas.
Please define your standards for authority and then we can discuss based on that.
Ram, that is because I wish to first define the basis for our discussion. Otherwise our exchange may turn out to be a non-fruitful exchange of passionate opinions where one tries to convince the other of his own view without reference to proper, commonly accepted pramana.
My standards for authority:
I am following the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition introduced by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and established by the Gosvamis of Vrindavana.
The main books of authority from which I draw my understanding of the practices of this particular path of bhakti are the "Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu" of Sri Rupa Gosvami, the "Prema-bhakti-candrika" of Sri Narottama Dasa, and the "Raga-vartma-candrika" of Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti.
Additionally, I accept as authoritative the entire corpus of literature compiled by the six Gosvamis and their direct associates, as well as those of Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada.
Whichever later books exist draw their authority from these foundational works, and are authoritative inasmuch as they are in allegiance with the originals.
Is that all right with you?
To conclude with, of course everyone follows certain niyamas, in accordance with their respective practice and its coveted goal. This is clearly demonstrated in the famous sravanotkirtanadini verse.
Additionally, in the Raga-vartma-candrika, Visvanatha has discussed how each activity on the path of devotion may be classified as svAbhISTa-bhAvamaya, svAbhISTa-bhAva-sambandhinI, svAbhISTa-bhAvAnukUlAni, svAbhISTa-bhAvAviruddhAni and svAbhISTa-bhAva-viruddhAni, and are to be adopted accordingly, having first commented on the aforementioned verse of Sri Rupa and the other two core verses defining the path of practice of the Gaudiya-sadhakas.
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]
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Originally posted by ram:
Raga, we can go on debating what we said on niyamas. The key point is niyamas are important in bhakti yoga in different stages. Practising niyamas should produce tangible results. In the absence of such results, one should not falsely think that one has advanced. One who is not able to see the devas, should not think that he can give up the niyamas of bhakti yoga for one who is a alpa manushya. What then to speak of goloka which is very high ?
To begin with, which tradition of bhakti are you speaking about? Also, please let me know which granthas do you use as the reference for your understanding of the same.
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<center>But... this is spiritual!jijaji: >strange..
You sound like a young kid when you make remarks like that..are you?
Interfaith comeback:
<font face="Georgia" size=3 color=blue>3 "I assure you," He said, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
- Jesus, Matthew 18:3
</font>
It is essentially an ego issue at hand.
</center><font color=fefefe><small>[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-10-2002).]
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Originally posted by shiva:
Also,Prabhupada uses the word manifest,you change that to expand.
This is the problem.
Expand,means coming from.
Radha,is not an expansion.
Swami AC Bhaktivedanta has the following opinion:
<blockquote>
Krsna, by expanding His pleasure potency, becomes Radharani.
============ REF. SB 10.13.20
Krsna cannot enjoy anything material because He is full in Himself. Therefore if He has to enjoy something, then that enjoyable personality must be expanded from Him only. So that is Radharani.
============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 7.1 -- San Francisco, September 10, 1968
When He wants to enjoy, He expands Himself, His pleasure potency. So Radharani is His pleasure potency, and the gopis are expansion of Radharani.
============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.36 -- Bombay, December 5, 1974
Krsna expanded Himself by His pleasure potency. That is Radharani.
============ REF. Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay
</blockquote>
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Could you answer the question Shiva? From whom do you learn? Or do you have a direct connection with transcendence, with no via medium in between?
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-03-2002).]
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Shiva, I can't make heads or tails out of what you say.
It is obvious you don't have a high regard for what people say here, you are on a mission to defeat everyone and to establish your conclusions which are correct on their own authority.
But let me ask, from whom did you learn the things you keep going about? Who is your guru?
I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again. Who is the person from whom you have learned the purport of the scriptures?
And I'll ask it again, from whom are you learning, from where do you draw your authority?
And I'll ask it once again just so that there is no chance for missing it, based on whose authority do you speak?
Because I know that Swami AC Bhaktivedanta has said:
<blockquote>The message of Srimad-Bhagavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession."
============ REF. SB 2.9.7</blockquote>
Shiva, once again I will ask, who is the current link in your disciplic succession? Are you a prophet of your own design, or are you learning from someone who actually knows?
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"When Krsna desires to enjoy, He becomes Radha" is correct, given that we have a correct understanding. The proper understanding in the words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta is:
"When Krishna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of Radharani."
Hence it is evident that Krishna remained the enjoyer, and expanded Himself as Radharani to be enjoyed. Radha, the pleasure potency, did not become the enjoyer. She became the enjoyed.
Do we agree on this conclusion?
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<a name="shiva"></a>
<center><font face="Verdana" size=7 color=red>
Shiva, for God's sake, what is your point? </font></center>[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]
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The exact words are:
"When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of Radharani, and when He wanted to understand Himself through the agency of Radha, He united with Radharani, and that unification is called Lord Caitanya."
============ REF. Adi Introduction
This does not mean that Radharani is the one who enjoys. It means She is enjoyed by Krishna. Krishna enjoys Her. "When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency... Sri Radha is this pleasure potency to be enjoyed. Right?
To gather the conversation together, what exactly is the point you are trying to make, Shiva?
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Originally posted by shiva:
The verse is in the Caitanya Caritamrta,so what if its in the purport?
look up the verse,you will find ,if the vedabase is not faulty,Srila Prabhupada giving Jivas commentary.
The other point,I did give Srila Prabhupadas quote,and where it was located,maybe you should read the intro to the Caitanya Caritamrta.
Also,when you are actually self realized,then being able to speak to Radha Krsna,is part of the equation.
So if your not speaking to the Personality of Godhead,then automatically, this excludes you from the ranks of the self realized,thereby leaving room for growth,if you know it all,you would have it all.
The verse is in the Caitanya Caritamrta,so what if its in the purport? Well, it's not written by Krishnadasa Kaviraja if it's in the purport, that's the difference. It is not in Caitanya Caritamrta, it is in a commentary on the Caitanya Caritamrta.
if the vedabase is not faulty,Srila Prabhupada giving Jivas commentary.
Will you please post it here? Is it possible, please? I think not. I just read through the Introduction, and Jiva Gosvami is not mentioned once in there, what to speak of his commentaries on anything.
And if this is my fault because I am blind and the fault of the Vedabase because it is deaf and dumb, then perhaps at least you can send this reference?
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Dear Shiva, I just scanned over the entire Vedabase. It is not in the Caitanya Caritamrta. It is in the commentary of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, but not in the Caitanya Caritamrta.Originally posted by shiva:
Dear Raga,you are incorrect.
How can you say the verse Sri Krsna Caitanya Radha Krsna nahe anya,is not in the C.C.,It is, many places,maybe you should look up the verse, it is there,in one place Srila Prabhupada gives us Jiva Goswamis explanation.
Given that it is a stanza composed by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, it is certain that there is no commentary of Jiva Gosvamin on it. Even if it was written by Krishnadasa Kaviraja, there would be no commentary of Jiva on the verse, for he never wrote a commentary on the Caitanya Caritamrta.
As for who is interpreting,that is not my point,Jagat,simply ignored what was written by the Mahabhagavat,and then gave his own limited purport,that Srila Prabhupada did not deem appropriate,maybe you and Jagat,should rewrite his books,
Dear Shiva, Jagat did not ignore what Swami AC Bhaktivedanta said. How could he have done it, since you never posted the exact words of the Swami here.
He only said your understanding was incorrect. Would you admit it might be possible, that at least once in your life, you might by accident misunderstand something?
adding your own thoughts,wherever you think is necessary,due to your advanced state of realization,after all you have read a few books,wow,your right up there with anybody who reads them,you must therefore be self realized to the fullest extent,there is no room for growth by you guys,hmm,by the way, have you talked to Radha or Krsna lately? No,oh well,maybe when you give up your ego driven thought process,...
Hodge-podge aside, let us discuss the subject matter. Quote the reference for us to make your point.
I would like to quote the learned words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta in this connection:
<blockquote>
"You should immediately, who has no reference to the sastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion."
============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 1.24-25 -- London, July 20, 1973
"You should immediately, who has no reference to the sastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion."
============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 1.24-25 -- London, July 20, 1973
"You should immediately, who has no reference to the aastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion."
============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 1.24-25 -- London, July 20, 1973
</blockquote>
I have cited it three times to make the point strong, since you have apparently not understood it from the earlier references. This is a Vedic custom supported by Swami AC Bhaktivedanta:
<blockquote>
The sastra reminding us three times. Just like we stress upon something that "Do this! Do this! Do this!" Thrice. So therefore it is said three times.
============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.2.7 -- Vrndavana, September 10, 1975
</blockquote>
So you may kindly do this.
As for the other things I attributed to Srila Prabhupada,like I said,(are you Blind),they are in the intro to the C.C.
Dear Shiva, I am not blind. Thanks for telling us where they are. Now, it is about 40 pages long the introduction, so perhaps you could do us a favor and present the exact words of the Swami? Thank you.
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Originally posted by ram:
Dear Raga, earlier you said that there are no niyamas in bhakti yoga - only yamas. now you are accepting that there are niyamas. if you actually are progressing by personal realization in bhakti yoga, you would not be ignorant of these basic rules of bhakti in the first place. What is the tangible proof that you have progressed ? I am not asking you to answer me but I humbly fall at your feet and request you to introspect.
I never said that.
Did I say there are no niyamas? I said, "Would you define the niyamas of bhakti yoga to be followed according to bhakti-sastra, as you see it?"
Did I say I was ignorant of the basic rules and regulations of bhakti? I said, "Upadesamrta we all know."
OK?
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Dear Shiva, it is only a question of *your* understanding and *his* understanding of the Caitanya Caritamrta. You assume that *your* understanding of the Caitanya Caritamrta and the commentaries of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta is correct, in contrast to *his*. Who has given you the right to assume that whatever you think is the correct understanding of the Swami and the scriptures?Dearest Jagat,please forgive my impertinance,I, in my ignorance of your exalted position,did not not realize, your ability to give the true import to Srila Prabhupadas words,when he did not deem it necessary to clutter up his understanding,with your superior "realization".
For all we can guess, it might be false, given the fact that you apparently have not studied the Caitanya Caritamrta and the other basics of Gaudiya theology cover to cover. Or otherwise, how can you refer to references which do not exist:
This reference is nowhere to be found in the Caitanya Caritamrta. This is a common wording of "mahaprabhu sri caitanya, radha-krsna nahe anya", found in the song "Guru-parampara" by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati."Sri Krsna Caitanya Radha Krsna nahe anya"(C.C),this tranlates as-Radha,Krsna, and Sri Caitanya,are one.
What Jagat has said is perfectly in line with Gaudiya theology, as it is found in the Caitanya Caritamrta for instance. You have not presented the exact reference of what Swami AC Bhaktivedanta says, so how is Jagat supposed to know exactly to which sentence of his do you refer?Srila Prabhupada did not say, that when Krsna desires to enjoy,he becomes Sri Caitanya,in order to taste the love of Radha,
If he meant that,then why did he not say that.
That is a simple understanding, and quite wrong. Sri Krishna is *visaya-tattva*, the enjoyer, and Sri Radha is *asraya-tattva*, the receptacle of love, or the enjoyed. Of course everyone enjoys in connection with Krishna, but Krishna is the Purusottama, purusa-uttama -- supreme enjoyer. We do not call Radha Purusottami, but we call Krishna Purusottama. What does this mean? To expand HIS enjoyment, Sri Krishna manifests varieties. He remains the principal and prominent enjoyer.Interestingly enough,regardless of your mindless declaration,"When Krsna desires to enjoy, he becomes Radha",still means what it says.
...
Krsna ENJOYS, as Radha,that is a simple understanding.
In case you only believe in the words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, here you have it in his words:
<blockquote>
Eko bahu syama. He alone, He has become so many. And why? What is the purpose of becoming so many? The purpose is anandamayo ?bhyasat. He wants to enjoy Himself with so many.
============ REF. Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.367-84 -- New York, December 31, 1966
Alambana may be further divided into asraya and visaya. In the loving affairs of Radha and Krsna, Radharani is the asraya feature and Krsna the visaya.
============ REF. Adi 4.135
Lord Caitanya is Sri Krsna Himself, the absolute enjoyer of the love of the gopis.
============ REF. Adi 4.226
The word rasadi-vilasi (?the enjoyer of the rasa dance?) is very important. The rasa dance can be enjoyed only by Sri Krsna because He is the supreme leader and chief of the damsels of Vrndavana. All others are His devotees and associates.
============ REF. Adi 7.8
[Radha speaks:] Now that attachment has become a natural sequence between Ourselves. It is not that it is due to Krsna, the enjoyer, nor is it due to Me, for I am the enjoyed. It is not like that. This attachment was made possible by mutual meeting.
============ REF. Madhya 8.194
The damsels of Vrndavana, the gopis, are super goddesses of fortune. The enjoyer in Vrndavana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna.
============ REF. Madhya 14.227
The male parrot then said, ?My dear sari [female parrot], Sri Krsna carries a flute and enchants the hearts of all women throughout the universe. He is specifically the enjoyer of the beautiful gopis, and He is the enchanter of Cupid also. Let Him be glorified!?
============ REF. Madhya 17.214
</blockquote>
Is that enough, or more I should post?
Shiva, if you wish to have a clear discussion on a certain point, it will be helpful if you articulate your points clearly and present the references to which you refer.
In the words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta:
<blockquote>
The process of speaking in spiritual circles is to say something upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying.
============ REF. Bg 17.15
Sruti-pramana, evidence from the sruti, from the Vedas, that is perfect. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, if you want to establish something you have to quote the section or the injunction from the Vedas, Then it is perfect. In learned circle you cannot say anything hodge-podge. That will not be accepted.
============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 16.9 -- Hawaii, February 5, 1975
So this cheating, vipralipsa, is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Bhrama pramada vipralipsa karanapatava. So a person, authorized person in the line of disciplic succession, he does not speak by his own authority. Immediately he?ll quote from the Vedic literature to support his proposition.
============ REF. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.5 -- Aligarh, October 9, 1976
</blockquote>
Let us do our best to avoid hodgepodge and let us quote from the sastra like Swami AC Bhaktivedanta has taught us. "In learned circle you cannot say anything hodge-podge. That will not be accepted." OK?
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Now, I'll have to post something on the alternate flows of energy here, from Bhagavata 4.8.1 with Bhaktivedanta comments:
<blockquote><center>maitreya uvAca
sanakAdyA nAradaz ca
Rbhur haMso ?ruNir yatiH
naite gRhAn brahma-sutA
hy Avasann Urdhva-retasaH
</center>
The great sage Maitreya said: The four great KumAra sages headed by Sanaka, as well as NArada, Rbhu, HaMsa, AruNi and Yati, all sons of BrahmA did not live at home, but became Urdhva-retA, or naiSThika-brahmacArIs, unadulterated celibates.
PURPORT: "The system of brahmacarya has been current since the birth of Brahma. A section of the population, especially male, did not marry at all. Instead of allowing their semen to be driven downwards, they used to lift the semen up to the brain. They are called urdhva-retasah, those who lift up. Semen is so important that if, by the yogic process, one can lift the semen up to the brain, he can perform wonderful work, one's memory is enabled to act very swiftly, and the duration of life is increased."
</blockquote>How likes you?
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Originally posted by ram:
niyamAgrhaha.
From the commentary of Radha Raman Gosvami on the fourth verse of Upadesamrta:
<blockquote>
"(1) niyama + Agraha = over-zealous- ness in following rules, and (2) niyama + agraha = failure to accept rules. When the first meaning is applied, it refers to enthusiasm for those rules which yield an inferior result, such as promotion to the heavenly planets, leaving aside the endeavour for the superior attainment of the service of the Lord. When the second meaning is applied, it refers to indifference towards those rules which nourish bhakti."</blockquote>
From the commentary of Bhaktivinoda:
<blockquote>"The word niyamagraha has two meanings. When one has obtained a progressively higher qualification but remains over-zealous to adhere to the rules pertaining to a lower qualification, it is known as niyama-agraha. Failure to observe the rules which nourish bhakti or, in other words, an absence of firm faith is known as niyama-agraha." </blockquote>
I find the commentary of Bhaktivinoda very interesting. "When one has obtained a progressively higher qualification but remains over-zealous to adhere to the rules pertaining to a lower qualification, it is known as niyama-agraha."
If one has obtained the precious gift of eagerness for obtaining a mood similar to that of a certain parikara of Sri Radha and Krishna, it is understood in observance of the instructions of Rupa Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti that he has obtained the qualification for entering into Raganuga-bhakti. Hence, it will be niyamagraha if one nevertheless avoids the practice of raganuga. Bhaktir vinasyati, according to the original verse of Rupa Gosvami. Bhaktivinoda warns us in a series of essays on the second verse of Upadesamrta, published later as "Bhaktyaloka", in the following words:
<blockquote>"In the process of sadhana-bhakti there are four stages, sraddha, nistha, ruci, and asakti. After passing these four stages one comes to the level of bhava, which is the doorstep of prema. According to the degree of faith, each level has different rules. As one leaves behind one level and progresses to the next, he should honor the rules of the latter and leave aside those of the former. Those who do not give up the rules of the previous level are bound by those rules like chains that do not allow him to proceed to the next level.
...
The conclusion is that the practitioner attains a higher level as a result of following the rules prescribed according to his qualification. He should not maintain attachment for the rules of his previous level. Keeping this instruction always in mind, he should always engage in chanting and remembering Lord Krsna and thus continue advancing to higher levels."</blockquote>
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-03-2002).]
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-03-2002).]
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Theist, the practice is meant for the ones who are eager for it. It is not for others.Originally posted by theist:
Raga,
In today's world with the demands of this modern lifestyle upon us, how practical is this type of practice for the most of us?Isn't this really for the few?
I find it almost impossible to nicely hear my japa through the static of my own internal dialouge, what to speak of becoming immersed in these detailed visualizatins.
One hears about the pastimes of Sri Krishna and His associates, and a greed awakens in his heart, "Oh, I want to attain a mood and feelings similar to him/her! (a particular associate)" Thus eagerness awakes.
Then one will do anything for obtaining his coveted goal. It is not easy in the beginning, but due to the burning desire for the goal, he goes on to practice.
To summarize, this practice is for those who want to do it. It is not to be advocated as a program of global salvation.
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Do you want to deprive the readers of their free will? My, then they will no longer be marginal!gHari: No. We do not leave it up to the reader to decide. We accept the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada: "never mind what is your origin." That is his final conclusion on the subject.
To end on a serious note, if "never mind what is your origin" is the final conclusion, then what about the following:
"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world."
(Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.28.54, purport by ACBSP)
<center>
</center>If he wanted that you should "never mind about your origin", then what is the purport of this purport?
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No, I am saying that the jivas are marginal as long as they keep going to the margin (Maha-Vishnu in the causal ocean) and back creation after creation. As I said, the term "marginal" is not attributed to anything by using "free will" as the criteria. Marginal is a definition based on the location of the jiva, as was earlier demonstrated by Bhaktivinoda.Theist: So it sounds like you are saying the jiva's are only considered marginal when situated in neutrality.Correct?So if one was to just regain that neutral footing without developing love of Godhead he would again be considered marginal?Hmmmm..?
The jiva is "marginal" here and now, on account of his origin and location. He becomes "non-marginal" when he goes to a place from where he no longer returns to the margin again and again.
And he always has a free will to some extent, and it always remains limited, because he is small and limited, in contrast to the one who is great and unlimited.
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Now that we are drifting way out of the thread topic, I might as well post the following quotes, which I recently discovered by chance.
Jesus said: "These words shall not be understood until the male becomes female and the female becomes male."
(The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene)
"Not until the male becomes female and the female becomes male shall ye enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
(The Gospel of Thomas)
I don't know what he was thinking when he said it, but it sure sounds interesting in the light of the dual upasana practiced by many Gaudiyas, where one identifies both with a female kisori form in Braja and with a male kisora form in Navadvipa in his daily mental service.
Anyone has anything more to contribute siddha-pranali-wise?
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Already it is coming... From Visvanatha's Jewel-Box of Sacred Love:
<center><font face="Georgia" color=red>lokadvayAt svajanataH parataH svato vA
prANapriyAd api sumerusamA yadi syuH
klezAs tadapy atibalI sahasA vijitya
premaiva tAn harir ibhAn iva puSTim eti</font><font face="Georgia" color=black>
"As a strong lion defeats many elephants
and then becomes further nourished
and strengthened by feeding on them,
so too does sacred love, when exceedingly great,
conquer all obstacles before it,
whether they come from this world or the next,
from enemies or from family members,
from one's own body or the things connected to it,
or even from that dearest one
who is the object of the love itself.
Even if those obstacles are as vast
as the immeasurable Mount Meru,
sacred love will conquer them,
and having conquered,
will become more strong and vital."
</font></center>Thus it was spoken in the Prema-samputika on the nature of sacred love, in its 54th verse. It is also related by Rupa Gosvamin in the blazing sapphire of amorous love, Ujjvala-Nilamani:
<center><font face="Georgia" color=red>sarvathA dhvaMsa-rahitaM
saty api dhvaMsa-kAraNe
yad bhAva-bandhanaM yUnoH
sa premA parikIrtitaH
</font><font face="Georgia" color=black>
"Even all the causes for perishing and forsaking do not cause its perishment;
this emotional bondage between the lovers is glorified as sacred love."
</font></center>
Hence there is never a cause for the perishment of sacred passion, and no impetus for it to cease for even a blink of an eye; only it increases in abundance evermore. Such are the ways of Vraja: Such are the ways of young lovers, and such is the nature of prema.
Siddha Pranali
in Spiritual Discussions
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<center><font face="Georgia, Book Antiqua" color=brown size=4>Of course there are a number of</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" color=blue size=4> other tweaks <u>that </u>can be used</font>
<font face="Georgia, Book Antiqua" color=grey size=4> to make the text more clear </font><font face="Verdana, Arial" color=violet size=5>
but I suggest</font><font face="Trebuchet MS" color=orange size=3>
it will be sufficient </font>
<u><font face="Book Antiqua, Georgia" color=blue size=4>to use the basic tags given </u>above</font>
except
<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman" color=#623425 size=4>when things really</font>
<font face="Verdana" color=red size=6> get out of hands.
It tends to happen. Have you <u>noticed?</u>
See HERE for a sample.
</center>
<font color=#ffffff>
[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]