raga

Originally posted by Jagat:

I wrote something about sthayi bhava in the footnotes to HNC.

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000061.html

 

I would not bother reading the other translations. They really have very little understanding. I think the most useful note is (17).

(BVT note # 17) Here the functioning of rasa may be compared to the working of a juice-making machine. Sthäyi-bhäva, which is also known as rati, is the honey. Once the machine starts moving by the combined energy of the four bhävas, the permanent emotion (sthäyi-bhäva) is then converted into rasa. Here the lover, the devotee of Lord Krishna, is the taster of the nectar of rasa.

 

Essentially BVT presents sthAyi-bhAva as an ingredient of bhakti-rasa here.

 

yo hi bhAvasya prathama pariNatAveva utpadyamAna eva premNi mUrta eva rasaH sAkSAd eva tadvatA bhaktenAnubhUyata iti.

 

(mAdhurya kAdambinI 7.7)

 

I still don't follow the equation sthayi-bhava = prema, since sthayi-bhava + 4 bhavas = bhakti-rasa = prema. Right?

 

But there are a lot of realizations in the gaudiya vaishnava tradition which are supra-vedic, that is not found in the available Vedas. In some cases the Vedic knowledge is rejected. The support comes from the Bhagavad Gita, where the Lord says,"trai gunya vishayo veda nistrai gunyo bhavArjuna"

 

Ram, would you demonstrate this with case examples of particular Vedic knowledge being rejected?

 

The traigunya vishayo veda obviously refers to portions of the Vedic literature which are concerned with pursuits other than that of paramartha.

 

The Gita also states, yaH zAstra-vidhim utsRjya vartate kAma-kArataH | na sa siddhim avApnoti na sukhaM na parAM gatim ||. Shastra is not to be neglected.

 

It is also taught by the Gosvamins (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101):

<blockquote><center>zruti-smRti-purANAdi-paJcarAtra-vidhiM vinA

aikAntikI harer bhaktir utpAtAyaiva kalpate</center>

"That exclusive devotion of Hari which is devoid of the directions of shruti, smrti, Puranas etc. and Pancaratra, is a cause of public calamity."</blockquote>

Thus shruti and smriti are definitely the foundational basis. This is what Jiva Gosvamin's Sat-Sandarbha is all about -- he establishes the essential doctrines of Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamins based on shruti and smriti.

 

So in conclusion one may say that the gaudiya vaishnavism is the fruit of all vedic knowledge and has to be judged by its own merits. So, can it be concluded that the Gaudiya Vaishnavism is superior to Vedic knowledge ? I have heard this thought from some devotees.

I would suggest you take Gaudiya statements seriously when backed up by something said by Gaudiya purva-acharyas. Otherwise there are so many concoctions out there you hear, God only knows the end for them.

 

Thus, attaining one?s spiritual identity in svarüpa-siddhi is (i.e. äpana-daçä is simultaneously bhäva.).

This is poetic language or an incomplete sentence is?

Ram: Genrally my understanding has been that niyamas are for regulating the body and the mind. This is interesting.

 

Can this be substantiated by the sastras ?

You are right -- mainly the yama and niyama, as often understood in relation with the practice of astanga-yoga for instance, are for regulating the body and the mind.

 

I am here taking the literal, broader meaning of yama and niyama, as "things not to be done" and "things to be done". In this sense both levels of consideration (body/mind and soul) are subject to the influence of yama-niyama, either directly or indirectly.

 

Ultimately all yama-niyama boils down to Vishnu-smarana. This is evident from Padma-purana, Brhad-sahasra-nama-stotram:

<blockquote><center>smartavyaH satataM viSNur vismartavyo na jAtucit

sarve vidhi-niSedhAH syur etayor eva kiGkarAH</center>

 

"To always remember Vishnu, and to never forget Him -- all the injunctions and prohibitions are servants of this principle."</blockquote>

 

All vidhi and niSedhA -- or yama and niyama -- on the path of bhakti effect the spirit soul. Those injunctions meant for regulating the body and the mind are an indirect factor in influencing the soul in the capacity of facilitating acts which directly influence it, such as Vishnu-smarana.

 

A body and mind - related niyama in itself can never yield bhakti. This is evident from the statement of Jada Bharata to King Rahugana in the 5th skandha of the Bhagavata, 12.12:

<blockquote><center>rahUgaNaitat tapasA na yAti

na cejyayA nirvapaNAd gRhAd vA

na cchandasA naiva jalAgni-sUryair

vinA mahat-pAda-rajo-'bhiSekam</center>

 

"O Rahugana, it [understanding of Bhagavan] is not revealed by penance, sacrifice, renunciation of the world, household life, study of the Vedic hymns, or by austerities in the midst of water, fire and sun -- without bathing in the foot-dust of the great souls."</blockquote>

To draw a bridge from here to an example of a lack of observance of niyama directly harmful for the spirit soul and bhakti, let us consider "jana-saGgah" from the sutra of Rupa Gosvamin -- "The association of mundane men".

 

In the Gita (2.62) it is told, saGgAt saJjAyate kAmaH, from association desires evolve. Allowing the mind to associate with affection with mundane men, desires averse to devotion are born. Since desire is ultimately an expression of the spirit, though manifest through the mind, there is a direct averse influence from one spirit soul to another, which affects the growth of bhakti in a negative way. I trust the point is clear without presenting several references from the shastra on the averse effects of mundane association, though they are at my disposal if you so desire.

 

Items from which the mind is to be withdrawn exist also within the realm of spirit. This would lead us to a discussion on the realm of ekanta-bhakti, or exclusive devotion, and items conducive and detrimental for it, to which I have hinted at my earlier posting on the previous thread in regards to the five-fold classification of Visvanatha.

The understanding I was coming to was that svarupa-siddhi, bhAvApana-dashA are equal to bhAva-bhakti, which in my mind is equal to rati or attaining sthAyi-bhAva. BVT does not seem to agree with this because he says elsewhere in CS that sthAyi bhAva is prema.

But... sthAyi-bhAvas by definition are rati -- mukhya-rati and gauna-rati, and their respective divisions. They're all listed as rati.

 

Would this be another of those occasions where BVT uses the common terminology with a different vision? Because sthayi-bhava, inasmuch as we take it to mean a particular rati, in itself is not prema.

 

Of course the definition of BRS 2.5.1 of sthAyi-bhAva implies that there are other bhAvas ingredients mixed in.

 

aviruddhAna viruddhAMz ca bhAvAn yo vazatAM nayan

surAjeva virAjeta sa sthAyIbhAva ucyate

 

I always took the word "bhAva" to mean "sthAyi-bhAva", but I am thinking, vibhAva, anubhAva, vybhicArI-bhava and sattvika-bhAva are bhAvas as well.

 

BRS 1.3.1 defines bhAva:

 

zuddha-sattva-vizeSAtmA prema-sUryAMzu-sAmya-bhAk

rucibhiz citta-masRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate

 

"A specific manifestation of suddha-sattva, by nature like a ray of the sun of prema, experienced as different tastes within the heart, this softness in the heart is called bhava."

 

This is not too specific in this regard. Would you have a more definitive explanation of bhAva at hand?

 

 

There is however a progression of sthayi-bhavas. Rupa (or is it VCT) says that in the sadhaka deha, one can only go as far as prema, and the other levels of sthAyi-bhAva--praNaya, mAna, rAga, etc., only come after vastu-siddhi, i.e. when one is actually in the spiritual body.

What do you mean with "a progression of sthayi-bhavas"? Sthayi-bhava is one (of the five of course), and is influenced by different factors. Aren't they rather the different levels of the growth of prema, as the different levels of experiencing bhakti-rasa?

 

 

At any rate, sthAyi-bhAva and complete identification with the spiritual body seem to me pretty much synonymous. Maybe at its lowest level, Apana-dasha is bhAva bhakti, but at its highest reaches it is prema. That fits in quite well with what I just translated.

HNC, Chapter 15/90: bhAvApane haya bhAva AvirbhAva-kAla |

zAstrareh-yukti chADe tabe jAniyA jaJjAla ||

 

"On reaching the state of bhAva-bhakti through full appropriation of his spiritual identity,

he gives up all scriptural arguments, considering them a disturbance." (38)

 

(BVT footnote #38) "At the time of appropriation" means "upon arriving at the stage of appropriating his own spiritual identity."

 

(Translation by Jagadananda das)

 

Do you have any earlier references for the attainment of svarupa-siddhi? Would be interesting to see.

-- wrong button -- sorry --

 

Whenever I cut & paste anything from Word, all the "'s and ' 's which are of the fancier style (you know, beginning and ending a quotation), they get replaced with ? 's.

 

-- end of excuse --

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

The understanding I was coming to was that svarupa-siddhi, bhAvApana-dashA are equal to bhAva-bhakti, which in my mind is equal to rati or attaining sthAyi-bhAva. BVT does not seem to agree with this because he says elsewhere in CS that sthAyi bhAva is prema.

SthAyi-bhAva is one of the ingredients of prema for all I understand? Is it prema in itself? What does BVT say there?

 

On Raganuga the question was asked, when does one taste rasa. Rasa can only be experienced when there is a sthAyi-bhAva. There is however a progression of sthayi-bhavas. Rupa (or is it VCT) says that in the sadhaka deha, one can only go as far as prema, and the other levels of sthAyi-bhAva--praNaya, mAna, rAga, etc., only come after vastu-siddhi, i.e. when one is actually in the spiritual body. At any rate, sthAyi-bhAva and complete identification with the spiritual body seem to me pretty much synonymous.

<blockquote>RAGA-VARTMA-CANDRIKA, TEXT 2.7

 

atha rAgAnugA bhakti majjanasyAnartha nivRtti niStha-rucyAsaktyantaraM prema-bhUmikArUdhasya sAkSAt svAbhISTa-prApti-prakAraH pradarSyate. yathojjvala nIlamaNau "tad bhAva baddha rAgA ye janAs te sAdhane ratAH. tad yogyam anurAgaughaM prApyotkaNthAnusArataH. tA ekAzo'thavA dvi-trAH kAle kale vraje 'bhavan" iti. anurAgaughaM rAgAnugA bhajanautkaNThyaM natvanurAga sthAyinaM sAdhaka-dehe 'nurAgotpattyasambhavAt. vraje 'bhavann iti avatAra samaye nitya priyAdya yathA Avirbhavanti tathaiva gopikA-garbhe sAdhana-siddha api Avirbhavanti. tataz ca nitya-siddhAdi gopInAM mahA-bhAva-vatInAM saGga mahimnA darzana zravaNa kIrtanAdibhiH sneha mAna praNaya rAgAnurAga mahA-bhAva api tatra gopikA-dehe utpadyante. pUrva janmani sAdhaka-dehe teSAm utpattyasambhavAt. ataeva vraje kRSNa preyasInAm asAdharaNAni lakSaNAni. yad uktam "gopInAM paramAnanda AsId govinda darzane. kSaNaM yuga-zatam iva yAsAM yena vinA bhaved" iti. "truTir yugAyate tvAm apazyatam" ityadi ca. kSanasya yuga zatAyamAnatvaM mahA-bhAva lakSaNam.

 

"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad habits), nistha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity. In the Ujjvala Nilamani it is said that 'those who are specially attracted to the ecstasy of the Vrajavasis and thus perform raganugiya bhajana will attain the abundance of eagerness that is fit for performing raganugiya bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three in their own time, according to their eagerness. Here the word anuragaugha means ?that eagerness which makes one qualified for doing raganugiya bhajana?. The anuraga mentioned here does not refer to the sthayi bhava (permanent mood) of that name, because the sthayi bhava named anuraga cannot be attained within a material body. The words ?having taken birth in Vraja? means the sadhana siddhas take birth from the womb of a gopika, just as Krishna's eternally beloved gopis appear with Him when He descends to earth (prakata-lila). After that, gradually sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga and mahabhava will become manifest in the gopika-body of that sadhaka on the strength of associating with the gopis that are endowed with maha-bhava and by hearing and chanting and seeing the greatness of Krishna?s eternally liberated gopis. These feelings could not possibly have arisen in the material body of the sadhaka in his previous birth. In this way the extraordinary characteristics of Sri Krishna?s beloveds in Vraja has been shown. In Srimat Bhagavata it is said that the gopis attained the pinnacle of transcendental bliss by seeing Govinda. Without Him, they experienced a moment to last like a hundred ages. Their statement (in Srimat Bhagavata 10.31.15) 'Without seeing You, we consider a second to last like an age', is a symptom of mahabhava."

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

From the commentary of Pandit Ananta Dasji:

 

"In the above verse, the word anuragaugham means the eagerness that is proper for raganuga, not the sthayi-bhava named anuraga, because only stages up to prema can appear in the sadhaka body. The states above prema, from sneha up to mahabhava, that are required to attain personal service in the mood of the gopis, can only appear in a transcendental gopi-body, for a sadhaka body is unable to tolerate the coolness of meeting with Sri Krishna or the heat of separation from Him."

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

<center><table width="80%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><td></td>

<td>

Originally posted by Jagat:

 

By the way, Shiva, those references about commas were from the Gita's

third chapter, "comma-yoga."

</td>

</table></center>

 

Originally posted by ram:

The following question arises :

 

Are the niyamas to be followed decided by the varnashrama/social status or stage of devotion?

The social status naturally gives an outline for it, but one's eligibility in terms of devotion is the essential factor in determining the details of proper observance, since it is the path of bhakti we pursue.

 

Actually we might do well in splitting the yamas and niyamas in two sections: 1. Those related with the proper balance of the body and the mind; and 2. Those related with the cultivation of bhakti within the soul.

 

The first section acts as a platform to facilitate the second. The first is more dependent on one's social position, and the second on one's devotional eligibility.

According to Jiva Gosvamin, there are two features of the principle of guru, the samasti-guru and the vyasti-guru. The first is Sri Krishna as the original, collective guru, and the second is the devotee-guru who manifests in this world.

 

The original vyasti-guru who delivered the jiva is not forgotten or set aside when we become more advanced. Jiva describes:

<blockquote>yathA ya eva bhagavAn atra vyaSTi-rUpatayA bhaktAvatAratvena zrI-guru-rUpo vartate, sa eva tatra samaSTi-rUpatayA sva-vAma-pradeze sAkSAd-avatAratvenApi tad-rUpo vartata iti.

 

"Bhagavan descends here in a localized form (vyasti-rupa) in the form of Sri Guru as the devotee. When Bhagavan appears directly in the collective form of Guru (samasti-rupa), Sri Guru is located there on His left side."

 

(Bhakti-sandarbha, Anuccheda 286/5)</blockquote>

 

In the Caitanya Caritamrta, it is very clearly recommended that we approach the devotee-guru on account of our inability to directly perceive the original guru-feature of Bhagavan. Adi-lila, 1.58:

<blockquote><center>jIve sAkSAt nAhi tAte guru caittya-rUpe

zikSA-guru haya kRSNa-mahAnta-svarUpe</center>

"The living entity can't directly perceive the guru within the heart (caitya-guru), therefore Sri Krishna appears as the instructing guru in the form of a great devotee."</blockquote>

 

Of course any kripa-siddha individual may exist joyfully in his own ecstacy without a need to worry about anything or anyone at all, but for those who intend to interact with others, for instance in the form of a siddhantic dialogue, it is important that one refer to a known, unbroken lineage of gurus from whom one has personally learned the message of Godhead.

Jagat guru, thank you,formanifestin!

<center><marquee behavior="alternate" direction="left"> </marquee>

<marquee behavior="alternate" direction="right"> </marquee></center>

Jagat: But on the whole, these people have a better chance in the long run than those who were pressured into taking some kind of vyavaharika relationship with a bureaucratic company man or those who have not had the direct association of a living Bhagavata and received the "mala imbued with prem and the Holy Name" and the empowerment ("sakti-sanchar") to engage in bhajan from him. (See Chaitanya Sikshamrita, Bengali edition, p. 306)

Can you give me the chapter reference, so I can check this up in my English edition? Would you have other references at hand for "sakti-sancar" and the specific meaning of receiving the mala from the guru? Some think there is no specific significance for the guru-given mala beyond other tulasi malas.

 

Shiva: But Guru is God. This is the reality. The physical body of the devotee is not Guru. Guru is the message of Godhead.

Yes, the physical body of the devotee in itself is not the guru, but you kinda have to pay attention to the existence of the physical body of the guru if you intend to hear from his lotus mouth. guru mukha padma vakya hrdoye koriya aikya, like that. The lotus lips from which the nectarine message of Godhead emanate are still kinda attached to the physical body of the guru, I say.

Does anyone have such a thing, or know where to get such a thing? English-Bengali-English digital dictionary?

 

I mean of the kind you can install on your computer, not one of those "surf-to-this-site-and-enter-the-word" things.

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

Perhaps this should go into "Health and Wellbeing", but I'll have to post it here in hopes that people will read it. An excerpt from "Eternal Health -- The Essence of Ayurveda" by Dr. Partap Chauhan, page 157:

<blockquote>

MISUSE OF INTELLECT -- PRAJNA-APARADHA

 

Prajna means "wisdom" or "intelligence", and aparadha means "offence". So the literal meaning of prajnaparadha is "an offence against wisdom". That is, doing things without discriminating as to whether it is favorable or harmful for the body or mind. These actions may be verbal, mental or physical. The actions generated by prajnaparadha aggravate the tridosha and stimulate the rajas and tamas gunas, allowing diseases to become established.

 

Excessive/atiyoga forms of this include talking too much, or excessive thinking, reading, mental work or physical activity. A deficiency (hina-yoga) of these actions is not undertaking these activities sufficiently, like not speaking at all or very little, and not working or engaging in any intellectual or physical activity.

 

Incorrect (mithya-yoga) forms include gossip, lying, inciting violence and irrelevant, illogical or harsh speech. Actions that are motivated by greed, anger, material attachment, envy, ego fear, grief or delusion also are mithya-yoga. The physical form of this includes the suppression of natural urges or performing unnatural activity such as smoking cigarettes, driving recklessly or participating in dangerous sports.

 

In brief, all actions that impact on the body-mind in a negative way are mithya-yoga. The person has not considered the detrimental health consequences of such activities. Or, the person is aware of the potential dangers, but ignores these and proceeds to engage in those activities anyway. Examples include smoking cigarettes despite health warnings on the packet, or continuing to drink alcohol excessively even though negative effects may have been experienced many times before.

</blockquote>

So let us be healthy, wealthy (?) and wise. Please.

Votes for the proposal of Rati?

 

- VOTE 1.

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Please understand that these are my doubts about reality. I am not at all thinking offensively, it's just that this issue seems to be coming up a lot lately. One devotee friend of mine has decided to live in a homosexual relationship and he is trying to rationalise his position by saying that it is natural because gender seems to be a vague issue in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. He made the claim that we are all female anyway and that all the pictures you see show nitya siddhas who look female. It wasn't that he couldn't see what he was doing was wrong, it was more the extent to which it is wrong. I am unsure about this also. I would really like this cleared up for me so that if I ever get asked these questions myself I will be able to give the proper answer that will fully satisfy the querent.

 

 

The practical understanding of the issue is summed up by Rupa Gosvamin in his Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu:

<center>sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa

siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi

tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA

vraja-lokAnusArataH</center>

 

"Serving in the sadhaka-form as well as in the siddha-form, by following in the footsteps of the residents of Vraja-loka, one should desire to obtain a mood similar to theirs."

 

Visvanatha Cakravartipada explains the meaning of following the residents of Vraja-loka in sadhaka-form and in siddha-form in his Raga Vartma Candrika (1.11):

<blockquote>How to follow in the footsteps of the people of Vraja? In one's physical body, one follows in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Gosvami and other saints that lived in Vraja, and in the mentally conceived spiritual body, one follows in the footsteps of Srimati Rupa Manjari and other eternal associates of Krishna.</blockquote>

Srila Cakravartipada wrote his Raga Vartma Candrika to clarify the orthodox Gaudiya practice in regards to this verse. During his time, there was an on-going ill-conceived notion that one could emulate the gopis' activities and moods with one's physical body. This branch of thought was then ousted from among the orthodox Gaudiya lineage.

 

------------------

The Sacred Realm of Raganuga-bhakti -- http://www.raganuga.org

Upadesamrta #2, atyAhAraH -- "Collecting or eating excessively".

 

Purvacharya-tikas:

<blockquote>

Radha Raman Gosvami, upadeza-prakAzikA-TIkA: "The word atyAhAra means to eat more than required or to accumulate material objects."

 

Kedarnath Bhaktivinoda, pIyUSa-varSiNI-vRtti: "The word atyahara is a compound word formed by combination of the prefix ati, which means too much or excessively, with the word ahara, which means to seize, grasp or consume for one?s own enjoyment. Excessive enjoyment of sense objects through any one of the senses and the endeavour to accumulate in excess of one?s requirements are known as atyahara.

 

Devotees who have renounced householder life are forbidden to accumulate material goods. Grhastha Vaisnavas must acquire goods sufficient for their maintenance, but if they accumulate beyond their needs it is known as atyahara. Those who are eager to perform bhajana should not accumulate worldly goods like materialistic sense enjoyers." </blockquote>

Here Bhaktivinoda makes an important point in regards to a balanced application of the principle of avoiding atyAhAra. Each individual should exercise this principle in accordance with his respective social status, either as a householder or a renunciate.

 

The renunciate class of men are not allowed to consume delicious foods or to accumulate things beyond their minimum bodily maintenance. For the householder class of men, more intimately involved in the society, there is more concession in this regard, though self-control is obviously a virtue among all human beings. Whereas for the renunciant, accumulating facilities in securing the future would be regarded improper, on the contrary for a householder, not doing so would be regarded improper in regards to his dharma of maintaining the family, the family's daily worship of Sri Vigraha, the healthy raising up of virtuous children and so forth.

 

The shastra also advocates a balanced approach:

<blockquote>Srimad Bhagavata, 1.2.10:

 

<center>kAmasya nendriya-prItir

lAbho jIveta yAvatA

jIvasya tattva-jijJAsA

nArtho yaz ceha karmabhiH</center>

 

"Desires should not be for sensual gratification, but for that which is required for self-preservation and inquiries into the truth about the purpose of the individual's life. Nothing but this should be the goal of one's works."

 

Also in the Bhagavad Gita, 6.16-17:

 

<center>nAty-aznatas ?tu yogo ?sti

na caikAntam anaznataH

na cAti-svapna-zIlasya

jAgrato naiva cArjuna

 

yuktAhAra-vihArasya

yukta-ceSTasya karmasu

yukta-svapnAvabodhasya

yogo bhavati duHkha-hA</center>

 

"O Arjuna, There is no yoga for the one who excessively eats, or for the one who overtly abstains from eating, nor is there yoga for the one who excessively sleeps, or who does not sleep enough.

 

He who is regulated in his eating, recreation, maintenance, duties, sleep and wakefulness, by his yoga the miseries of life will perish."</blockquote>

 

From the above we may observe that considerations of proper observance of niyama are largely individual, and that which is proper niyama for one may be detrimental for the other. As we say, "One man's food is another's poison".

 

Therefore the proper observance of niyama is to be sorted out between the guru and the shishya, to facilitate safe spiritual growth. The tendency has been at times to socially impose a certain standard of niyamas upon each and every individual, and this has proven itself a detrimental practice -- without going into case examples in this connection. It would take another thread to discuss the social and spiritual consequences of improper application of niyama.

 

The commentary of Bhaktivinoda sums everything up in all of its briefness in a very crisp manner. Would that be sufficient for the first section of yama-niyama?

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

Originally posted by ram:

Perfect start Raga.

 

I agree that these verses need more careful study and we should go gradually. As I do not have Upadsamrta here with me, could could you please explain the commentary of Srila Prabhupada and that of pUrvAchAryas.

 

And purely for the purpose of learning, did Rupa Gosvami base his works on some other sastra ?

 

 

Ram, the six Gosvamins certainly based their works on shastra, mainly the Gita, Puranas and Upanishads. There is a famous stanza of Srinivas Acharya, their follower, in their praise (from the Sad-Gosvamy-Astakam):<blockquote><center>nAnA-zAstra-vicAraNaika-nipuNau sad-dharma-saMsthApakau

lokAnAM hita-kAriNau tri-bhuvane mAnyau zaraNyAkarau

rAdhA-kRSNa-padAravinda-bhajanAnandena mattAlikau

vande rUpa-sanAtanau raghu-yugau zrI-jIva-gopAlakau

</center>

"Considering the various shastras with unique expertise, they established the essential, eternal religious principles. Benefactories of the three worlds, they are worthy of honour and taking shelter of. They were intoxicated with the ecstacy of worshiping the lotus feet of Sri Radha and Krishna, and unto them, Rupa, Sanatana, the two Raghus (Raghunatha Bhatta and Raghunatha Dasa), Sri Jiva and Gopala, I offer my obeisances."</blockquote>

There are particularly two works from the Gosvamis which are prominently filled with scriptural references, namely the Sat Sandarbha of Jiva and the Hari Bhakti Vilasa of Gopala Bhatta.

 

Naturally the esoteric details of worship on the path of raganuga were not discussed in detail in the classical shastras compiled by Vedavyasa, but nevertheless the framework of authority in all of their works is derived thereof. On more general points of practice, you will at times see frequent references to earlier sources, but in rasa-filled poetry, this is often not the practice; you may consider the Gita Govinda of Jayadeva for instance -- Jayadeva could have easily quoted from the Bhagavata to "establish" the truth of a certain pastime, but this would have not been conducive to the natural flow and expression of the poem.

 

I shall get back to you in regards to the commentaries of these two verses on yama and niyama later today. I will do my best to present both the essence of the commentaries of the purvacharyas, as well as relevant references from the Gita and the Bhagavata Purana. In fact, I would like to present verses from the two aforementioned shastras on each of the twelve aspects mentioned by Rupa. Let us see whether I succeed or not, I have not specifically researched this before.

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

In principle, yes. But I am travelling and I am not having any of these books with me now. Secondly I dont have scholarship in these. So you have to help me by quoting the exact verses and the context - basically educate me. Thirdly, any of these authorties must be in line with sruti and not contradict it. If you are okay with that, then we can discuss. I think it will be a good learning.

Ram, would you mind if we switched over to Raganuga Discussions? There we'll find more pandits with scholarship and reference libraries, and correspondingly less passion, to create a smooth discussion. I think it will be good learning for both of us.

 

Here the conversation gets often jammed due to non-adherence to commonly accepted pramana, as you have noted.

 

I mean, I don't mind, anyone can believe as they wish, but discussions leading to a solid conclusion are impossible if there are no premises for the discussion.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]

Originally posted by Shashi:

You are appearing to be one very confused up fellow. Using your dessertation when the Lord is saying,

"All things are in Me BUT I am not in all things" he is being using BUt incorreectly?

When somaone is saying "It never rains BUT pours" they are being using the BUT wrongly? If it is pouring with the rain it must be raining isnt it? Still one can be saying that with the BUT because in that sense one is making the contrasting utterance.

This is because the validly using of BUT is being many and varied as is being shown when you can be looking up the dictionary and how complexity is the using of this word. Ther being nothing wrong with my using BUT in my sentence so you must be fixing up your wrong quoatation of me!!!!

Otherwise I must be alerting JN Dasjji.

Shashi, if you don't know how to spell English properly, I suggest you don't start debating on proper English grammar with one who is a native English speaker.

 

The original sentence where the word "BUT" appeared was rather confusing, since it had at least eight major mistakes in grammar and one spelling mistake on top of it.

 

So you should not be upset if your posting was not properly understood. I suggest that instead of trying to prove how you were right with the sentence with eight plus mistakes, you try to focus on the actual discussion at hand.

 

To keep things together, I suggest we try our best to stick to common standards of expression.

 

If I quote you and say "This person is telling like this and that", and then it turns out after two and half pages of debate that this "this person" was actually my inner sound of wisdom and not you, it is very difficult to get a comprehensible discussion together.

 

Would you have something to contribute in regards to the actual topic under examination? Everyone, please see the top left corner of your screen in case you can't figure it out by reading the last three pages or so.

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-04-2002).]

In other words, Shiva, do you have a direct connection, or are you learning from a guru? That's what I was aiming at.

 

And don't say "so what".

Let us open the discussion with a famous shloka on sharanagati, surrender unto the Lord, as it appears in the Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa of Gopala Bhatta Gosvamin.

<blockquote><center>AnukUlyasya saGkalpaH

prAtikUlyasya varjanam

rakSiSyatIti vizvAso

goptRtve varaNaM tathA

Atma-nikSepa-kArpaNye

SaD-vidhA zaraNAgatiH</center>

"A desire for the favorable, rejection of the unfavorable, the acceptance of the Lord as one's only protector in this world, as well as one's sole maintainer, self-surrender and a feeling of wretchedness; this is the six-fold surrender."</blockquote>

It is important to first acquaint oneself with the basics before making a leap into the confidential practices of the Gaudiya tradition, such as the ones briefly discussed in the thread "Siddha Pranali", to enable a proper understanding thereof -- which in part provoked this thread to begin.

 

The favorable and the unfavorable, or that which is to be adopted and to be renounced, have been discussed by Rupa Gosvamin in his Sri Upadesamrta, verses two to three:

<blockquote><center>atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca

prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyaM ca

SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati</center>

 

"Collecting or eating excessively, endeavoring for the needless, aimless conversations, adherence to rules without a purpose or whimsical rejection of rules, association with worldly men and greed for the mundane; by these six devotion perishes."

<center>

utsAhAn nizcayAd dhairyAt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanAt

saGga-tyAgAt sato vRtteH

SaDbhir bhaktiH prasidhyati</center>

"Enthusiasm (for devotion), confidence (that one day the Lord will bestow His mercy), firmness in determination (despite obstacles), execution of proper acts (conducive for devotion), rejection of mundane association, and adherence to the path of the saints; by these six, devotion is perfected."</blockquote>

 

In these two verses, Sri Rupa Gosvamipada gives a comprehensive outline of the yama and niyama to be adopted on the path of bhakti.

 

I trust these principles would be universally acceptable to sampradayika Vaishnavas regardless of their tradition.

 

There is much to be elaborated on these two sutras of Rupa Gosvamin on the specifics of devotional practice.

From Merriam Webster (emphasis mine):

 

<blockquote>

Main Entry: proph·et

Pronunciation: 'prä-f&t

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English prophete, from Old French, from Latin propheta, from Greek prophEtEs, from pro for + phanai to speak -- more at FOR, BAN

12th century

 

1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament

2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet

3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR

4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

5 Christian Science a : a spiritual seer b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth

</blockquote>

Originally posted by shiva:

What is the difference.

Everything,is viewed by the devotee,who is aware of reality,as Guru.

Guru,is God.

God is everywhere,and can reveal everything ,anywhere,at any time,at all times,or not at all.

Everything ,is seen,as the will of God,by the advanced devotee.

With this vision,undeterred by the distraction of seeing things going on independently,you are then capable of being the recipient, of conscious awareness, of the presence and mind of God.

This can not be achieved by our own ability,God can reveal knowledge,directly to you,first you have to be free from the influence of the illusory energy.

The illusory energy,is fooling us into thinking that God is not in control,of everything,and everyone,every sound,thought,and motion.

When you can see the controlling aspect ,in concert with the controlled result,then you are ready.

This is not recommended for neophytes,it is to confusing.

But if you are destined for that,then you will experience God,in everything you see,or hear.

It is not our ability,it is given to you.

Are you a prophet?

 

Shiva: Literal understanding is enough for the neophyte.

For the advanced devotee,a different story emerges.

Shiva, I can't resist from asking -- all these revolutionary, new views are very exciting -- did you realize them all yourself, or did you learn them from anyone?

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, if you agree with my conditions, we could discuss. I am also ready to start a new topic if that will make it clear. But what is the need to go to another forum ?

I just feel there is more potential at Raganuga Discussions for a conducive scriptural discussion. People are used to citing proper evidence for their views.

 

But at least a new thread here.