raga

May 9, 2002

--- jokes aside ---

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-09-2002).]

May 9, 2002

JNdas:But for the sake of maintaining peace I won't point out the futility of other dried up branches of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Right. I guess we all have our standards for "dried up". Some consider "not active in expanding" to be "dried up", while some consider "often lacking in depth of practice" to be "dried up".

It was supposed to, mainly because it was a joke in response to Raga's obvious personal dislike for Bhaktisiddhanta.

JNdas, I am initiated into a different lineage from his, and therefore I do not personally endorse all of his innovations. Nevertheless, I have no particular like or dislike for him. I appreciate many of the contributions of his and his followers' to the spreading of the culture of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Why do you think that everyone should be preoccupied with an "attachment/aversion" trip? Not everyone is limited to a conception where they see their own particular group as supremely excellent and others as inferior and worthy of dislike.

May 9, 2002

Theist: I take it we agree the Name stands independent of such procedures.

nAma cintAmaNiH kRSNaz caitanya-rasa-vigrahaH

pUrNaH zuddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvAn nAma-nAminoH

Is it true that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in terms of time place and circumstance when he added the giving of the sacred thread?

Everyone in this world acts in terms of time, place and circumstances. Whether one does the right thing is another issue.

Most of the people never accepted the innovations of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. But this would be the subject matter of another discussion. To maintain peace in the forums I suggest to not start one.

May 9, 2002

Theist: If I understand you correctly you are saying that the name alone is not sufficent to bring one to the platform of pure chanting but only to the level of liberation that is produced by nama-abhasa.

It is sufficient. No need for diksa. Even there no need to study shastra, to associate with devotees, to visit the holy dhama, to accept a guru at all, to follow any regulative principles and so on. The Holy Name will take care.

But it may take you a while.

Therefore we do all these things. They help us to very quickly come to the platform of chanting suddha-nama.

May 9, 2002

Theist: Does mantra diksa refer to gaytri/ brahmana initiation?

Mantra diksa certainly refers to gayatri-mantra initiation. There are currently two aspects to the concept "mantra initiation".

1. Pancaratrika mantras -- Gopala Mantra, Kama Gayatri and possibly other mantras depending on one's lineage, which are given by a Vaishnava guru when the disciple desires to begin the worship of Bhagavan.

2. Vaidhika mantras -- Brahma Gayatri, which is given at the time of upanayana samskara (the sacred thread ceremony) to a brahmin boy.Both of them may be called "mantra initiation".

The first is the "mantra initiation" traditionally given by Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas. It was the innovation of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to join the two into one initiation, in which the initiate was also given the status of a "brahmana" in varnasrama dharma. Hence this occasion is sometimes called "brahmin initiation", though traditionally it is not related with brahminhood in varnasrama-dharma at all.

May 9, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

Sri Chaitanya, whom most of us claim to follow, Himself did not give mantra diksha to any disciples. Yet He did have disciples. But most here will probably prefer to ignore this point as it strengthens the concept of a siksha parampara as opposed to a ritual parampara.

Of course it is common knowledge that Sri Caitanya did not have initiated disciples. He accepted mantra-diksa, though. And anyone who has read the story of Mahaprabhu's going to Gaya can't be but astonished of the power of receiving genuine mantra-diksa.

Nor did Caitanya Mahaprabhu write many books for that matter. Does this mean He discouraged people from writing bhakti-shastras, or said that it was not so important? No -- He left the work to His associates, such as the six Gosvamis of Vrindavan, whom He directly empowered for this work.

And in the same way, He empowered His near associates, particularly Nityananda and Advaita, to establish Gaudiya diksa-paramparas, which they did in a grand style, the former through His consort Srimati Jahnava Ma Thakurani. Among others, Gadadhara Pandit, Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, Narottama, Srinivasa and Syamananda started their own parivaras.

As to whether divya-jnanam (transcendental knoweldge) actually means a ritual initiation with a mantra, thats left for people with common sense to decide.

Since when did common sense become the final pramana on scriptural considerations? I suggest we leave it up to Jiva Gosvami to decide.

Why do you insist it is "ritual"? It is much more than a ritual. It is a ceremony of initiating and establishing an eternal bondage of love between the initiate, his guru, and the mantra-devatas. It includes the confirmation of a pursuit for the darshan of Bhagavat-svarupa and for the realization of a specific relationship with Bhagavan, as in the commentary of Jiva on this verse.

From the practical history, we see Arjuna did not receive a ritual mantra initiation, yet he became the shishya of Krishna simply by complete surrender (shishyas te 'ham shadhi mama tvam prapannam.

Yes, Arjuna was a siksa-disciple of Bhagavan. There was no diksa there, according to the definition of diksa in the Bhakti-sandarbha and Hari Bhakti Vilasa. Of course there is disciplehood there.

However, when we try to practically understand the meaning of "diksa" in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, we should see the examples set by those who established the tradition, and who had the same mode of upasana as the one for which we aspire. Arjuna was not a Gaudiya Vaishnava. He was an eternal associate of Bhagavan.

Others may give more value to the metric distance between the guru and the disciple when he whispers in the ear of the shishya, but it is not the case in the scriptures or traditions.

The scripture we have already demonstrated before. It is understood (Sad-gosvamy-astakam #2, Srinivasa Acarya) that the Gosvamis did a scrutinizing study of the revealed scriptures, and extracted the essence of sad-dharma into their books. We have presented ample evidence from the Gosvamis.

From the practical history, we see that the following personalities in the Gaudiya Sampradaya accepted mantra-diksa and declared their disciplehood to the mantra-guru, even if they chose to not give diksa themselves to anyone. I will first present an excerpt illucidating the thoughts of Rupa and Sanatana in this regard, and then proceed to present a list of prominent mantra-diksa-lines established by the associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

"The Gaudiya Gosvamis were all the very embodiments of humility. They did not want to accept disciples, because they thought they did not deserve to be guru. Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha did not take any disciples. Lokanatha had also vowed not to give diksa to anyone, though he had to break his vow in the case of Narottama Thakura.

Rupa and Sanatana were concerned about the sisya-parampara (the line of disciplic succession) of the sampradaya, which had to be maintained. Mahaprabhu had solved the problem to some extent by authorizing and ordering Gopala Bhatta to give diksa; Rupa Gosvami tried to prepare at least one more person for the task. Jiva Gosvami was still young. Therefore he entrusted the responsibility to Raghunatha Bhatta. He asked Gopala Bhatta to initiate the people from the western region and Raghunatha Bhatta to initiate those coming from Gauda."

(OBL Kapoor, The Gosvamis of Vrindavana, chapter six)

Then we shall present the authorized mantra-diksa connections among several prominent personalities in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. May this serve as an example illustrating the path of the Gaudiya Mahajanas.

<div align="center">Mantra-diksa-guru --- Initiated disciple

Madhavendra Puri --- Isvara Puri

Madhavendra Puri --- Advaita Acarya

Madhavendra Puri --- Nityananda Prabhu

Isvara Puri --- Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Pundarika Vidyanidhi -- Gadadhara Pandit

Vidya Vacaspati --- Sanatana Gosvami

Sanatana Gosvami --- Rupa Gosvami

Rupa Gosvami --- Jiva Gosvami

Advaita Acarya --- Yadunandana Acarya

Yadunandana Acarya --- Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami

Advaita Acarya --- Srinatha Pandit

Srinatha Pandit --- Kavi Karnapura

Prabodhananda Sarasvati --- Gopala Bhatta Gosvami

Gopala Bhatta Gosvami --- Damodara Gosvami

Gopala Bhatta Gosvami --- Gopinatha Pujari

Gopala Bhatta Gosvami --- Srinivasacarya

Srinivasacarya --- Ramacandra Kaviraja

Ramacandra Kaviraja --- Hari Ramacarya

Gadadhara Pandit --- Paramananda Pujari

Gadadhara Pandit --- Ananta Acarya

Ananta Acarya --- Haridasa Pandit

Haridasa Pandit --- Radhakrishna Gosvami

Gadadhara Pandit --- Sri Krishna Dasa

Sri Krishna Dasa --- Narayana Bhatta Gosvami

Narayana Bhatta Gosvami --- Sri Vrajavallabha

Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami --- Gadadhara Bhatta Gosvami

Advaita Acarya --- Lokanatha Gosvami

Lokanatha Gosvami --- Narottama Dasa

Narottama Dasa --- Ganga Narayana Cakravarti

Ganga Narayana Cakravarti --- Krishna Carana Cakravarti

Krishna Carana Cakravarti --- Radha Ramana Cakravarti

Radha Ramana Cakravarti --- Visvanatha Cakravarti

Visvanatha Cakravarti --- Krishnadeva Sarvabhauma

Sri Jahnava Thakurani --- Virabhadra Gosvami

Sri Jahnava Thakurani --- Ramacandra Gosvami

Sri Jahnava Thakurani --- Dhananjaya Pandit

Dhananjaya Pandit --- Yaducaitanya Gosvami

Virabhadra Gosvami --- Gopijana Vallabha

Virabhadra Gosvami --- Rama Krishna

Virabhadra Gosvami --- Ramacandra

Gauridasa Pandit --- Hridaya Caitanya

Hridaya Caitanya --- Syamananda Pandit

Syamananda Pandit --- Rasikananda

Rasikananda --- Nayanananda

Sri Nayanananda --- Radha Damodara Dasa

Radha Damodara Dasa --- Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Vakresvara Pandit --- Gopala Guru Gosvami

Gopala Guru Gosvami --- Dhyanacandra Gosvami

</div>

These initiations have been performed by the recital of a sacred mantra from the mouth of the guru into the ear of the disciple.

Allegiance to the path of the Gaudiya Mahajanas commands us to follow the same tradition.

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by Jagat:

And now, my friends, I leave you for at least 12 hours.

Your servant,

Jagadananda Das.

Miss you. I am also out for a while now.

Your servant,

Madhavananda Das

<center>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * </center>

"Hearing Lord Caitanya's words, Jagai and Madhai threw themselves down at the feet of all the Vaisnava devotees, and catching their feet, begged for their mercy. The devotees were moved by their humility and blessed them. Thus Jagai and Madhai became free from all desires to commit further sinful activities."

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

Again, the examples cited of Ramanuja and Arjuna. What mantras did they receive? Yet they were both initiated by the guru in a spontaneous manner.

Did their gurus follow the procedures mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilasa (Whisperingi n the ear, etc.)? Of course the answer is no. Some people can only see what is written in the text, but it does not always tally with reality. The text is written as a general guideline, but who can limit the flow of divinity? Krishna can initiate one into His mantra by playing His flute. He can do the same through his nimita-matras if He desires. There is no limitation you can put on divinity.

Sometimes those who "have" the ritual want to specialize themselves from others. Thus they like to stress the importance of their ritual, or rather themselves.

Of course anyone may follow the parampara of Ramanuja or Arjuna, I have no objection. In the disciplic succession of Ramanuja, to the best of my understanding, there is a succession of mantra-diksa, since Ramanuja himself established 74 simhasanadipathis to give mantra-diksha and thus initiate people into the Shri Vaishnava tradition.

In regards to the Gaudiya Sampradaya, which is the primary concern for myself, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu authorized and empowered the six Gosvamis to lay out the path of Gaudiya Vaishnava sadacara. It is evident that this particular methodology of giving diksa is to be embraced by His followers:

<blockquote><center>hari bhakti vilAsa grantha kailA vaiSNava-AcAra

vaiSNavera kartavya yAhAG pAiye pAra</center>

"He compiled a book called Hari Bhakti Vilasa which delineates the proper conduct of a Vaishnava, and from which the duties of Vaishnavas can be completely understood."

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Antya-lila, 4.221)

<center>guru-lakSaNa, ziSya-lakSaNa, doGhAra parIkSaNa

sevya bhagavAn, sarva-mantra-vicAraNa

mantra-adhikArI, mantra-siddhy-Adi-zodhana

dIkSA, prAtaH-smRti-kRtya, zauca, Acamana</center>

"[Mahaprabhu said: Your book should describe:] The qualities of a guru, the qualities of a disciple, their mutual testing, the object of worship, Bhagavan, and all considerations related to mantra, eligibility for receiving mantra, perfection of mantra and other such considerations of practice, diksa, daily duties, remembrance, cleanliness and acamana."

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 24.330-331)</blockquote>

It is thus evident that all Gaudiya Vaishnavas should adhere to these clear rules. The pramana of Gaudiya Vaishnava history certifies this, since these practices have been followed by Gaudiya acaryas since the times of Mahaprabhu. Should there be exceptions, it does not justify the breaking of an established rule.

Yes, there is no limit to the will of the Divine, but the Divine in the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has instructed His followers to observe certain rules.

Given the ecumenical nature of the IndiaDivine forums, where Hindus and Vaishnavas of all castes and creeds are present, let it be clearly stated that this does not diminish the value of the practices of the members of other spiritual lineages in the least. We are discussing a doctrinal issue within the scope of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

May 8, 2002

And read the news here:

http://208.179.25.150/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=18

Posted Image

Posted Image Wow, the first time I use this smilie.

Posted Image

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by shiva:

You guy's and your theories,what a country!

You don't like us countryside boys?

What about the theories of the Gosvamis? They were not "guys" though living on the countryside of Braj, and they had pretty good theories IMHO.

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by shiva:

You can take all the initiations you want,from a thousand bona fide Gurus.

If you do not accept the message of them,you will still be less realized,then someone who has never been initiated, and has never associated with sadhus,but has accepted the message of a single bonafide guru,and acted on it,sincerely.

If one was to accept their message, the natural outcome would be to surrender unto the lotus feet of such a guru and accept mantra-diksa from him. Rupa Gosvami: guru padasrayas tasmad krishna-diksadi siksanam | vishrambena guror seva sadhu vartmanugamanam || -- 1. Taking shelter of the lotus feet of a guru; 2. Accepting Krishna-diksa; 3. Accepting siksa; 4. Intimately serving the guru; 5. Following the path of the saints.

Here we see the natural progress on the path of devotion, as it appears in the Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu.

Like Srila Sridhar Maharaj said "We are not a sampradaya of diksa,we are a sampradaya of siksa."

"Sometimes the truth is coming from here,then again it is coming down from a different place,the truth is flowing down in a crooked way."

Regardless of whether the sampradaya is one of diksa or siksa (perhaps both are there?), we may see that every recognized acarya within the tradition claims for having received diksa.

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

The external ritual of initiation is just a symbol. The actual diksha is the planting of divya-jnanam in the heart of the disciple. What is jnanam? It is the instructions of the parampara, both personal and universal. The ritual has its relevance, but to confuse the ritual for the actual substance is going too far.

You may read the concept of Jiva Gosvamin on the meaning of giving "divyam jnanam" in the context of diksa. He states "divyam jnanam hy atra srimati mantre" -- the divine knowledge in this mantra which was given.

This divine knowledge which is to be realized from the mantra is the sum and substance of everything -- the svarupa of Bhagavan and our specific relationship with this feature of Bhagavan. Hence receiving diksa with a proper mantra is the seed of the initiate's sadhana bhajana, and it can not be said to be a ritual only.

And to dismiss one's arguments (regardless of how crazy they may or may not be) on the grounds that one didn't get the "ritual" is kind of cheap, and too common as well.

No, we are not dismissing the arguments of anyone per se because of a lack of diksa. We ask anyone to refer to the scriptures, and if anyone insists in his claim without backing it up with scriptural reference, this anyone is a rascal according to the definitive conclusion of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, as was presented earlier at length by myself in the "Siddha Pranali" thread, page five.

<blockquote>"You should immediately, who has no reference to the sastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion."

============ REF. Bhagavad-gita 1.24-25 -- London, July 20, 1973</blockquote>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-08-2002).]

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by shiva:

Raga,those descriptions of diksa,are really what we accept as siksa.

The message of the Guru,the mantra given,these are instructions and are not necessarily only given in a ceremonial manner,or even in person.

Srila Prabhupada is giving the Maha-mantra,and siddhanta in his books.

Accepting them would qualify as diksa according to what you quoted.

If you read the second chapter of Hari Bhakti Vilasa, you'll see the context in which these words on diksa are given. It is very evident from this section that diksa is received from the guru in his personal presence.

First Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada cites verses which stress the importance of receiving proper diksha:<blockquote><center>gRhIta viSNu dikSAko

viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH

vaiSNavo 'bhihito 'bhijJair

itaro 'smAd avaiSNavaH</center>

"One who has obtained Vishnu-diksa and is engaged in the worship of Vishnu is called a Vaishnava by those who know everything. Others are not Vaishnavas."

(Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.55, quoted from the Padma Purana)

<center>adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam

pazu-yonim avApnoti dIkSA-virahito janaH</center>

"One who has no diksa, all of his activities are devoid of value. Devoid of diksa, he will take birth from the womb of an animal."

(Hari Bhakti Vilasa 2.6, quoted from the Vishnu Yamala)</blockquote>

Then the process of giving diksa is presented:

<blockquote><center>paridhayansuke sisya acanto yaga mandape

gatva bhaktya gurum natva guror asita daksine</center>

"A disciple, after taking his bath, wearing very clean and nice clothes with a nice chadder, purifying himself by accepting acamana, with devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, paying his long obeisances at the lotus feet of the spiritual master many times, should sit down with folded hands, facing his spiritual master."

<center>nyasya panitalam murdhin tasya karne ca daksine

rsyadi yuktam vidhivan mantram varatrayam vadet

dirgha mantram ca sisyasya yavadagrahanampathet

guru daivata mantraikyam sisyastam bhavayan pathet</center>

"Thereafter, holding the head of the disciple with both of his hands, the spiritual master should recite the mantras in the disciple's right ear systematically. Following the process of great sages, he should recite this mantra three times. If the mantra is very long and difficult, then he should carry on reciting it again and again until the disciple has practiced it. The disciple should at that moment think the spiritual master, demigods and the mantras which he is receiving are equally respectable."

(Hari Bhakti Vilasa, 2.127, 130-131)</blockquote>

This is called the giving of diksa. Also Swami AC Bhaktivedanta confirms that this is the meaning of diksa, when he explains the meaning of the concept "diksa-guru".

<blockquote>"The spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the sastras is called the diksa-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the siksa-guru."

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 8.128, purport)</blockquote>

As is evident from what was presented by Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, diksa is indeed obligatory.

Just so that there is will be doubt over the concept of "diksa" in what was practiced by Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, I'll conclude with a statement of his from the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.31.10. We may philosophize so many theories out of his statements, but here is his practice:<blockquote>"In our Krsna consciousness society, unless one is twice initiated -- first by chanting Hare Krsna and second by the Gayatri mantra -- he is not allowed to enter the kitchen or Deity room to execute duties."</blockquote>

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

I think the only disagreement that could exist is what constitutes surrender to the spiritual master and "initiation". Is it a mere ritual, or is it the implanting of divya-jnanam in the heart of the shishya? Arjuna is a disciple of Lord Krishna because he surrendered to the Lord and he received divya-jnanam. It was not a ritual. The same was the case with Ramanuja.

In the Gaudiya tradition, the concept "diksa" is inseparably connected with the transmission of a mantra from a guru to his disciple. Obviously the mere ritual will not do, but the ceremony of receiving mantra etc. must be there. As will be seen, the ceremony of receiving mantra is presented as the natural step after the shisya's decision to surrender unto the guru.

I would like to offer the following verses of Bhakti-sandarbha (Anuccheda 283) in this regard, which Jiva quotes from the Hari Bhakti Vilasa, commenting on some of them. Jiva binds the concept of diksa together with the reception of mantra, even in commenting on the famous definition of "diksa", which is often interpreted to be separate from the function of giving mantra.

<blockquote><center>divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam |

tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH ||

ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca |

gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH || [HBV 2.9-10]</center>

divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca.

"That in which divine knowledge is given and sins are destroyed is declared to be diksa by those who are expert in wisdom.

Thus one should offer obeisances unto the guru, surrender everything to him, and then accept from him diksa of a Vaishnava-mantra."

Divine knowledge here indicates knowledge of the nature of Bhagavan and knowledge of a specific relationship with Him in this mantra.

. . . . .

<center>dIkSA yathAgame --

dvijAnAm anupetAnAM sva-karmAdhyayanAdiSu |

yathAdhikAro nAstIha syAc copanayanAd anu ||

tathAtrAdIkSitAnAM tu mantra devArcanAdiSu |

nAdhikAro 'sty ataH kuryAd AtmAnaM ziva saMstutam || [HBV 2.3-4]</center>

Agamas speak of diksa:

"A twice-born is not eligible to perform his occupational duties or his study of scripture prior to undergoing the ceremony of the sacred thread. Similarly, one who has not received diksa has no eligibility for worshiping the Deity of the mantra and so on, and therefore there is no auspicious glorification for the soul."

</blockquote>

May 8, 2002

Mahaprabhu himself took initiation from a non Gaudiya Vaisnava,do you think he was trying to make a point?

If we take it that "Gaudiya Vaishnava" means a follower of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then of course Mahaprabhu didn't take diksa from His followers.

Otherwise, Ishvara Puri was certainly in the club, a very qualified shishya of Madhavendra Puri, who is said in the Caitanya Caritamrta to be the first one in whom the bhakti-kalpa-taru fructified. Ishvara Puri is said to be the next one in whom this prema-bhakti bore fruit. CC Adi 9.11 .

May 8, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

I assume you actually mean through your authorized disciplic succession, as there are countless successions which will have varying definitions. And of course one such authorized disciplic succession which was quoted was the one of Srila Prabhupada's, but that didn't seem to satisfy you. Thus it seems to reaffirm my conclusion above (i.e. your authorized disciplic succession...).

No, I would not say my disciplic succession. I do not say my guru is the only way. My, it would be foolish to say so.

Within the realm of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, the six Gosvamis are held to be the highest authority. Anyone who claims to be Gaudiya is bound to follow their precepts. Thus we have a common ground of authority, inasmuch as the question is within the framework of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Is it?

If you read the entire thread, you'll see my lengthy posting with numerous quotes from the writings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Should we take it that these writings echo his actual stand on the matter, or instead something picked out of a letter from 1968 to someone who was in a particular situation?

Moreover, we may observe how the tradition of establishing disciplic succession is carried on among the majority of his direct followers. It is carried out by the means of diksa-initiation. The need of diksa-initiation is evident to be recognized within a particular lineage of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-08-2002).]

May 8, 2002

If you really want to know what is the meaning of diksa, I suggest going to the Gosvami Granthas instead of plucking out references from the letters of a recent teacher, with all due respect, since it may not even represent the view of the person whom you quote. The meaning of diksa has to be learned through an authorized disciplic succession to have a proper understanding.

May 7, 2002

Originally posted by theist:

Why not just deal with what he says in terms of siddhanta.If he is right then the Lord must be giving it to him.

Theist, this is exactly the point. At times the siddhanta he presents is outrageous in the light of scriptures.

At any rate, the Lord must be giving it to him, as He gives to everyone -- since everyone wanders His path in all respects. But siddhanta is another thing.

May 7, 2002

Jagat, can you send me the whole article by email? If you have other articles as well, send them in please. I find it tedious to surf around and copy and paste them from here and there into my archives. Thanks!

May 7, 2002

Siksa r the message of the Guru,combined with knowledge, and realization are the important factors in

deciding who is "in or out".

The Diksa initiation is helpfull but not critical,to development.

Shiva, I would like to draw your attention to the following words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, since you told us that you accept him as guru. Please do study them these words very carefully, and let us know what you think about them.

And please do understand that the very reason why we are asking is that we have studied your postings carefully and found that on their own merit they can't be given much authority, since many things you have stated are contrary to proper scriptural conclusions handed down through the guru-parampara.

<blockquote>sarva-desa-kala-dasaya janera kartavya

guru-pase sei bhakti prastavya, srotavya

"It is therefore the duty of every man--in every country, in every circumstance and at all times--to approach the bona fide spiritual master, question him about devotional service and listen to him explain the process."

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 25.122

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 1.35, purport

This relationship [with Krsna] is established by connecting oneself with the bona fide spiritual master who is the direct representative of Krsna in disciplic succession. The connection with the spiritual master is called initiation. From the date of initiation by the spiritual master, the connection between Krsna and a person cultivating Krsna consciousness is established. Without initiation by a bona fide spiritual master, the actual connection with Krsna consciousness is never performed.

The Nectar of Devotion

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 15.108, purport

If one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Antya-lila 7.53

Unless one inquires about his own self beyond the body and the mind, all his activities in human life are total failures. Therefore out of thousands and thousands of men, one may inquire about his spirit self and thus consult the revealed scriptures like Vedanta-sutras, Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. But in spite of reading and hearing such scriptures, unless one is in touch with a realized spiritual master, he cannot actually realize the real nature of self, etc.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.1, purport

In his previous life, when Naradaji was impregnated with spiritual knowledge by the grace of the great sages, there was a tangible change in his life, although he was only a boy of five years. That is an important symptom visible after initiation by the bona fide spiritual master. Actual association of devotees brings about a quick change in life for spiritual realization.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.6.5

Even for a king like Maharaja Pariksit there was need of a spiritual master for guidance. Without such guidance one cannot make progress in spiritual life. The spiritual master must be bona fide, and one who wants to have self-realization must approach and take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master to achieve real success.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.3, purport

The principle of accepting a spiritual master ... is essential. Even for one who takes to devotional service, it is most important. Transcendental life begins when one accepts a bona fide spiritual master. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, clearly states here that this process of knowledge is the actual path. Anything speculated beyond this is nonsense. ... without the instruction of a bona fide spiritual master, one cannot progress in the spiritual science.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 13.8

A student is to be considered perfected when he understands the identity of the holy name and the Supreme Lord. Unless one is under the shelter of a realized spiritual master, his understanding of the Supreme is simply foolishness.

Teachings of Lord Caitanya

One who is not taught by a bona fide spiritual master cannot understand the Vedic literature. To emphasize this point, Lord Krsna, while instructing Arjuna, clearly said that it was because Arjuna was His devotee and confidential friend that he could understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gita. It is to be concluded, therefore, that one who wants to understand the mystery of revealed scriptures must approach a bona fide spiritual master, hear from him very submissively and render service to him. Then the import of the scriptures will be revealed.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 7.48, purport

[One should] approach a bona fide guru who is the representative of the Lord following the parampara system. No one should try to squeeze out his own meaning by imperfect mundane knowledge. The guru, or the bona fide spiritual master, is competent to teach the disciple in the right path with reference to the context of all authentic Vedic literature. He does not attempt to juggle words to bewilder the student. The bona fide spiritual master, by his personal activities, teaches the disciple the principles of devotional service. Without personal service, one would go on speculating like the impersonalists and dry speculators life after life and would be unable to reach the final conclusion.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.37, purport

No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [sB 6.3.19]--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4.34, purport

Sometimes less intelligent men ask whether one has to approach a guru to be instructed in devotional service for spiritual advancement. The answer is given here--indeed, not only here, but also in Bhagavad-gita, where Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru (sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam). The Vedas also instruct, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] one must accept a guru for proper direction if one is seriously inclined toward advancement in spiritual life. The Lord says that one must worship the acarya, who is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (acaryam mam vijaniyat). One should definitely understand this. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that the guru is the manifestation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, according to all the evidence given by the sastra and by the practical behavior of devotees, one must accept a guru. Aditi accepted her husband as her guru, so that he would direct her how to advance in spiritual consciousness, devotional service, by worshiping the Supreme Lord.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.16.23, purport

The Lord reveals His identity gradually to one who has unflinching faith, both in the spiritual master and in the Lord. After this, the devotee is endowed with mystic opulences, which are eight in number. And above all, the devotee is accepted in the confidential entourage of the Lord and is entrusted with specific service of the Lord through the agency of the spiritual master.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.39, purport

We can speculate for many births, for many years, and yet not be able to understand the ultimate goal of life. Therefore the sastras all advise that we search out a guru. The word guru means "heavy" or "weighty." One who has much knowledge is heavy with knowledge. One should consider the bona fide guru in this way, and one should not think, "I know everything. Who can teach me?" No one can say such a thing, for everyone needs instruction.

Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahuti

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything--body, mind and intelligence--one must take Vaisnava initiation from him.'"

Madhya 15.108, purport

Mr. O'Grady: Is it possible to arrive at this understanding of God alone?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Therefore we have cited this verse: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. The word abhigacchet means "must." It is not possible alone. In Sanskrit grammar this is called the vidhi-lin form of a verb, and this form is used when there is no choice. The word abhigacchet means that one must approach a guru. That is the Vedic version. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita you will find that Arjuna was talking to Krsna, but when he saw that things were not being resolved, he surrendered himself to Krsna and accepted Him as his guru.

The Science of Self-Realization

"One should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of pure devotees."

PURPORT: The Srimad-Bhagavatam can only be recited by one who has unflinching faith in the lotus feet of Krsna and His devotee, the spiritual master. One should try to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam from the spiritual master. The Vedic injunction states: bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam na buddhya na ca tikaya. One has to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam through the process of devotional service and by hearing the recitation of a pure devotee. These are the injunctions of Vedic literature--sruti and smrti. Those who are not in the disciplic succession and who are not pure devotees cannot understand the real mysterious objective of Srimad-Bhagavatam and Srimad Bhagavad-gita.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.131, purport

"How could one have knowledge of devotional service and detachment without the help of such [spotless] devotees"

PURPORT: There are many inexperienced persons who advocate self-realization without the help of a spiritual master. They decry the necessity of the spiritual master and try themselves to take his place by propagating the theory that a spiritual master is not necessary. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, does not approve this viewpoint. Even the great transcendental scholar Vyasadeva had need of a spiritual master, and under the instruction of his spiritual master, Narada, he prepared this sublime literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Even Lord Caitanya, although He is Krsna Himself, accepted a spiritual master; even Lord Krsna accepted a spiritual master, Sandipani Muni, in order to be enlightened; and all the acaryas and saints of the world had spiritual masters. In Bhagavad-gita Arjuna accepted Krsna as his spiritual master, although there was no question about the necessity of accepting a spiritual master. The only stipulation is that the spiritual master should be bona fide; i.e., the spiritual master must be in the proper chain of disciplic succession, called the parampara system.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.39, purport

In the Adi-lila Purana there is the following statement by Lord Krsna Himself, addressed to Arjuna: "My dear Partha, one who claims to be My devotee is not so. Only a person who claims to be the devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee." No one can approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly. One must approach Him through His pure devotees. Therefore, in the system of Vaisnava activities, the first duty is to accept a devotee as spiritual master and then to render service unto him.

The Nectar of Devotion

The best way to establish our relation in transcendental sweetness is to approach [Lord Krsna] through His recognized devotees. One should not try to establish the relation directly; there must be a via medium which is transparent and competent to lead us to the right path.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.9.22, purport

[For devotional life] one must first become a servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord (dasanudasa). Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised, and He also showed by His own example, that a living entity should always desire to be a servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis (gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasadasanudasah). This means that one must accept a spiritual master who comes in the disciplic succession and is a servant of the servant of the Lord.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.11.24, purport

In the spiritual world there are five kinds of relationships with the Supreme Lord--santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. ... These five relationships in the material world are distorted reflections of the original pure sentiments, which should be understood and perfected in relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master ... a conditioned soul must ultimately approach a bona fide spiritual master and try to understand perfectly the material and spiritual worlds and his own existential position.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi. 1.56, purport

The human form of body is actually meant for jivasya tattva jijnasa, enlightenment in knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore, one must seek shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta: [sB 11.3.21] one must approach a guru. Who is a guru? Sabde pare ca nisnatam (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.3.27): a guru is one who has full transcendental knowledge. Unless one approaches a spiritual master, one remains in ignorance.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.10.10, purport

The serious candidate must accept a bona fide spiritual master in order to be trained scientifically. Because the senses are material, it is not at all possible to realize the Transcendence by them. Therefore the senses have to be spiritualized by the prescribed method under the direction of the spiritual master.

Easy Journey to Other Planets

The stage of pure devotion is attained by sincerely serving a pure devotee of the Lord. The first condition of devotional service to the Lord is therefore to be a servant of a pure devotee, and this condition is fulfilled by the statement "reception of the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee who has also served another pure devotee." That is the way of pure disciplic succession, or devotional parampara. ... Lord Sri Krsna is the property of His pure unconditional devotees, and as such only the devotees can deliver Krsna to another devotee; Krsna is never obtainable directly. ... The conclusion is, therefore, that one should be more serious about seeking the mercy of the devotee than that of the Lord directly, and by one's doing so (by the good will of the devotee) the natural attraction for the service of the Lord will be revived.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.23, purport

</blockquote>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-07-2002).]

May 7, 2002

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Sorry to sound like an iconoclaust once again. Why is that even great Vaisnava acaryas like Sri Ramanuja never quoted from SB even once? For sure he quoted occasionally from Visnu Purana. Mostly he debated using Brahma Sutra. I have not heard of either Madhvacarya or Sankaracarya ever quoting from SB. Why so? Is it because, they considered SB to be less reliable than srutis? Is it because of the many interpolations and recensions?

It is well known that Madhva wrote a commentary on Srimad Bhagavata called "Bhagavat Tatparya". Therein he quotes the following verse from the Garuda Purana:<blockquote><center>artho ?yam brahma-sutranam bharatartha-vinirnayah

gayatri-bhasya-rupo ?sah vedartha-paribrmhitah

grantho ?stadasa-sahasrah srimad-bhagavatabhidhah</center>

"The Bhagavata is the authorized explanation of Brahma-sutras, and it is a further explanation of Mahabharata. It is the expansion of the gayatri-mantra and the essence of all Vedic knowledge. This Bhagavata, containing eighteen thousand verses, is known as the explanation of all Vedic literature."</blockquote>

This verse was also quoted in the paper which shvu linked to us above.

According to JNDas in an earlier thread, http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000365.html , in this title Madhva relates that eight Bhagavata commentaries were written prior to his. Interestingly, Madhva states that one of them was by Shankara.

JNDas knows more about this I trust. Perhaps he even has Bhagavat Tatparya at hand.

May 7, 2002

Originally posted by Rati:

JNDas: Is there an English translation in print that people could refer to? Jiva's Sanskrit tends to be difficult even for experienced Sanskritists.

There's one edition by Satya Narayan Das and another one by BV Tripurari Maharaja. I have the former edition, haven't seen the latter, though they say it is good.

May 6, 2002

As I said, up and down. PAJo -- our present network connectivity provider in LA -- has some problems with its subnetworks, and our host is moving the box over to WorldCom. That's the issue.

May 6, 2002

Anyone out there who wants to comment pramana-wise should refer to a Vedic pramana to substantiate his claim.

Kindly present solid evidence on the interrelation of shruti, smrti etc. and then we have something serious to begin with.

I'll present some verses of shruti from the document to which our shvu referred to.

<blockquote>rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha

ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens." (Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

evam ime sarva veda nirmitah sa-kalpah sa-rahasyah sa-brahmanah sopanisatkah setihasah sanvakhyatah sa-puranan

"In this way, all the Vedas were manifested along with the Kalpas, Rahasyas, Brahmanas, Upanisads, Itihasas, Anvakhyatas and the Puranas." (Gopatha Brahmana, purva 2.10)

asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama

vedo?tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord." (Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda." (Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)</blockquote>

What is the issue at hand? Is there a clear objection to be presented in regards to the Gaudiya theology? If so, you may kindly present a case example with proper reference to a statement in the Gaudiya corpus of literature, and clearly word the objection with reference to shruti.

May 6, 2002

To tell you the truth, it was supposed to go down Sunday noontime (-08.00 GMT), but it appears to be still on in the end of the old IP address, though it is going on and off once in a while.

I really wonder what the server host man is doing. He's supposed to take the box to a new physical location to provide 100% internet connectivity. I'll have to give him a call if things don't get going.

Will let u know when it is stabile in the new location. Thanks for the patience there.

Sign In

raga

Content Count

Joined

Last visited

Content Type

Profiles

Forums

Downloads

Gallery

Calendar

Store

Posts posted by raga

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Downtime for raganuga.org

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

Is Gaudiya Vaishnavism Superior to the Vedas ?

Is Gaudiya Vaishnavism Superior to the Vedas ?

Downtime for raganuga.org

Is Gaudiya Vaishnavism Superior to the Vedas ?

Downtime for raganuga.org