raga

In regards to the specifics:

1) witnessed by aspiring siksha disciples (who later rejected him because of his offense)that he:

a. demanded that they relinquish all connections with their bona fide ISKCON diksha gurus, the guru parampara coming from ISKCON, and take reinitiation from him. Srila Prabhupada says, no Vaishnava will accept such a person who reinitiates a disciple of a guru who has not fallen down.

But alas, how many were re-initiated during the time of Bhaktisiddhanta from traditional Gaudiya lines. "But their gurus were all a priori fallen", you will say.

Besides, to whom did he say this? You may kindly tell when and to whom this was said -- otherwise the story may be just another fabrication.

b. blasphemed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saying that he did not have a diksha guru,

Said to whom, and where? For the record, according to ISKCON & Gaudiya Matha sources, Bhaktisiddhanta did not receive traditional pancaratrika-diksa.

Bhakti Vikash Swami of ISKCON (who is compiling a biography of Bhaktisiddhanta: "It appears that the diksa given by SGKDB to SBST was most informal and not according to pancaratriki-vidhi or indeed to any prescribed vidhi, although it served the essential purpose of all vidhis."

Bhakti Kusuma Shramana of Gaudiya Matha: "With the permission of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Sarasvati Thakura accepted Bhagavati initiation from Srila Babaji Maharaja in the month of Magha (January-February) 1900 A.D."

Hence, even if someone was to say that, there would be no fault in proposing that Bhaktisiddhanta had no pancaratrika diksa-guru.

c. that ISKCON has no guru parampara,

ISKCON has no pancaratrika-diksa guru-parampara, since their conception of guru-parampara (as well as that of the Gaudiya Matha) is different -- one of siksa-parampara.

d. that ISKCON devotees are all melecchas, and need I go further?

To whom was it said, and when?

e. highly suspected implication in the murder and disappearance of other babajis who became popular and thus powerful contenders for the coveted position of mahanta (controller of crores of rupees, followers, and properties).

"Highly suspected" -- by someone else besides you?

f. As I said already, they are constructing septic tanks on the bank of Radha Kunda and passing stool and urine there, which is leaking out into the kundas (test the water in a lab for yourself).

Have you ever heard of toilets, my friend?

I would like to know based on what the toilets of the babajis in particular are in any way different from any other toilets in India.

g. Waging political war to keep ISKCON from acquiring property in Radha Kunda.

"Political war"? Hmm... ISKCON has two properties there. Need it try to purchase the whole Radha Kund?

Explain to me why a babaji would need to get a permit to possess automatic weapons in Radha Kunda for self-defense? That is something else you can research the next time you go for bhajan.

 

Q. Does Lord Caitanya prefer the Uzi or the Ingram?

A. 9mm Prabhu, for the nine processes of devotion.

The only guns I've seen at Radha Kund are the ones in the hands of the hired chaukidhars in front of the new ISKCON property there. They guard the property against the gundas who come and harass the land-owner there. The new property was handed over to ISKCON care on account of the former owner's (who still maintains a word to say on the property) insufficient resources to protect it against the gundas. He knew ISKCON has sufficient resources and manpower to keep armed men 24/7 protecting the place.

Given the vicious gundas on the area, I would not wonder if anyone else also armed himself, or if anyone else hired guards. I am yet to see the uzi in Panditji's pocket though. Sounds like a rather wild proposal.

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[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-31-2002).]

Is that the best you can do? Two "I know better than you" questions? I already answered your questions.

No, you did not. You did not tell me whether you have met any babaji of Radha Kund in person, and you did not tell me what siddha-pranali means.

People are misled into rejecting their diksha gurus and into believing that the Pandita knows who I am in the spiritual world, and as my rasa guru he will find out from Radharani my name, form, and so on...then he will reveal the esoteric secret to me.

To begin with, the details f one's siddha deha are not revealed to the guru by Radharani Herself. This only shows you do not know the theology of siddha-pranali as it exists at Radha Kund.

They are Bangladeshi and Bengali opportunists who came looking for money, power, position and women in a place where they shouldn't. Ask any Brajabasi, when economic conditions are poor in Orissa, the Orissan babajis become dominant, the same goes for Manipur, Bangladesh, and Bengal.

 

These are generally people who immaturely renounce family due to economic pressure and go to Radha Kunda with material desires to set up camp and live practically like grihastas in their secret world of social, economic and political struggle for power, prestige, position, land, money and women.

According to the Gita, there are four classes of pious men who surrender to the Lord. The suffering and the ones in need of wealth are two among them. I am yet to meet a person who is already a pure devotee before taking up the path.

Their three story electric, watertank, and propane gas bhajan kutir worth crores of rupees or at least laks, is certainly not following in the footsteps of the real Gosvamis, who were living in abandoned crocodile holes or mud huts at best.

Govindaji Mandir, Madan Mohan Mandir... Built by wealthy householders inspired by the Gosvamis' devotion.

Go to Radha Kund and see how the leading Babajis live. It is not exactly what you would call luxurious. Far less luxurious than the buildings and facilities of Gaudiya Matha (what to speak of ISKCON) sannyasis and brahmacaris.

Better to go back to Bangladesh and sweep the streets of Dakka than to pass stool in Radha Kunda in your Pandita's septic tank which is leaking into the kund (go test the water if you don't believe me--I am sure you will find your guru's fecal matter there). The gosvamis used to go 2 kilometers away to pass stool. Never in Radha Kunda. Why are the present so-called Babajis too lazy to do that? No utsaha?

Sling the mud. Even better, sling the stool. Welcome to the 21st century, where people can quickly finish their morning duties near their residence.

As far as allowing the tanks' to leak to Radha Kund, this is an absurd proposal. Better worry about the pilgrims and their little kids who bathe there, since many of them don't have proper respect to the sacred Kunda, and don't know how to act accordingly.

To keep up the purity of Radha Kund water despite the numerous pilgrims' visiting and bathing there, the pond is emptied on regular intervals, and the cleansing took place again just a few months ago.

Therefore Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's proclamation remains, they are living in Naraka Kunda and living like kings with crores of rupees in the bank, sitting on their thrones in the their stool rooms, they reign supreme as the relishers of the topmost rasa.

Certainly it is Naraka Kunda to you, if all you can see is stool and exploitation. Others go there and see the topmost place in the universe, and are overjoyed and immersed in bhajan in the association of saints. I suggest you never go there in your present state of mind.

The Pandita or Panda would be a more apt term, tells you for a nice donation of guru dakshina, your name is "Gunjamala Manjari" (or some other concocted name he invents), and later when you reach the stage of bhava and actually become self-realized, you find out that your name is actually Jyeshta Manjari, and so many other details about your identity are different from the one you were contemplating as a pretender.

Ananta Das Pandit never asked for daksina from me. When I tried to offer some, he refused to accept any, and told me that my bhajan is what makes him happy.

It is not that by meditating on a concocted identity that that artificially imposed meditation is going to dictate your eternal identity, and that is why it is illegal to contemplate your siddha deha before you even have one (before bhava--the little detail you missed from Srila Bhaktivinoda's teachings you like to reference).

You are yet to present the exact reference (with original text, please), which sounds like it is much in contrast with the rest of the Thakura's writings in this regard (viz. my references earlier on pancha-dasha etc.).

If you have your own gurupadapadma then why are you and the Pandita taking strength from Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Why not just be chaste and stick to your own line and your own authorities and process? Why go outside. Chastity means to rely on your acaryas.

"Chastity means to rely on your acaryas." And therefore the Gosvamis set the example, quoting from the works of the different sampradaya-acaryas in their works (ie. Sat-Sandarbha).

Bhaktivinoda is not "outside", he is a rupanuga-vaishnava. Even he belongs to Jahnava parivara, just as I do.

More on the specifics in the next.

Originally posted by Jagat:

Bhaktivinoda says that we are for the most part chanting Namabhasa or Namaparadha. The pure Name comes only after much purification.

 

Does this mean that the spiritual master does not give the Holy Name?

The spiritual master gives you a pure diksa-mantra. Due to your contamination, you do not perceive the mantra-devata, but a semblance of Him only, perhaps even mere syllables. The spiritual master gives you an installed arca-vigraha. Due to your contamination, you only see a semblance of the original beauty. It is given to you, but you are unable to perceive.

Just like a small child, to whom his parents give a book or a watch. On account of his ignorance, the child cannot read the text or know the time by looking at them. This does not mean he does not possess a genuine book and a genuine watch. Only a veil of ignorance prevents him from reaping the full benefit from the matchless gift he was given.

My guru will reveal himself to you and your real spiritual identity, when you sever your connections with the asat sanga you are presently victimized by. That is my blessing and guarantee for you and every other victim of the pandita, including the pandita himself. I wish you all well. I have been assigned by higher authorities to help you.

O gift of gods, please reveal your mystical identity, since I cannot leap for the unknown! Who are you, O sage, and who are your gurus? Who are the gods who assigned you to this divine mission? Would they permit you to answer the two questions I submitted?

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[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-31-2002).]

You Pandita and camp is just an extension of those who were rightly identified by my gurus as one of the many deviant sects of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Naturally, such persons are continuing their multi-generational attack while pretending that everything is normal and such issues are beyond us.

You do not have the faintest idea of who he is, what is his guru-parampara, and where it comes from. Simply residing at Radha Kunda, declared to be the topmost sacred place and the perfect location for bhajana, it does not a deviant make, does it? People who reside there are most fortunate.

First thing is you don't have a siddha deha. A siddha deha is your perfected spiritual body which is attained at the stage of perfection, not during novitiate sadhana. This is precisely the sahajiya deviation of trying to cheapen the process. You cannot have 11 bhavas until they are given to you at the stage of bhava.

If you bothered to read the Fifteenth Chapter of Harinama Cintamani , you would have noted that ekadasa-bhava (specifics of the siddha-deha) are given at the stage of shravana-dasha, while apana-dasha or svarupa-siddhi corresponds with the stage of bhava. There is a lot of bhajana in between.

Siddha dehas are not widgets that come off the assembly line of the fertile imagination of a cheap show-bottle charlatan. It is all imagination, NOT siddha-deha. Your understanding of siddha deha is cheap and foolish.

Sir, your rhetoric includes the element of "a priori condemnation". Do you know what is my understanding of the theology of siddha-deha?

From what you write, it appears that you think that "siddhi" is given at the time of giving ekadasa-bhava. Certainly not -- you receive eleven moods for which you aspire. As Narottama said, "What you contemplate on during sadhana, you will attain at the time of siddhi." Not that you have them at present, not at all.

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali.

We are also opposed to the so-called siddha-pranali, which is but a fiction of imagination. However, we embrace the conception of genuine siddha-pranali, which is present in all traditional Gaudiya lineages -- and indeed, to an extent in some Gaudiya Mathas as well (BV Narayana, BH Bon Maharajas).

Considering that you did not explain the concept "siddha pranali", I take it that you do not know what it actually means. If you do, please explain it in clear words, preferably in one or two paragraphs.

I'll repeat two key questions I asked a while ago, along with a standard for an answer I expect to get:

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QUESTION 1. Have you spoken in person with any prominent leader at Radha Kund, even if only for a few minutes?

ANSWER EXAMPLE 1. Yes, I have spoken with Baba so-and-so, and he said this and that, therefore my conclusions.

Alternative answer example: No, I have not spoken in person or met any Baba of Radhakund, and I do not really know what they are saying.

QUESTION 2. Could you define the meaning of siddha-pranali, as it is understood among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

ANSWER EXAMPLE 2. Yes, I can. It means this-and-that, and it is not required for us because of so-and-so reason.

Alternative answer example: No, to be honest, I don't have a clue of what it really means. I don't even know an exact translation for the term in English.

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Looking forward hearing from you.

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[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-30-2002).]

These substances stimulate the body and the mind. Since we are supposed to be able to concentrate and meditate on the name, form, qualities and pastimes of the Lord, and since a peaceful mind is required for this, therefore we abstain from items which have a stimulating effect on us. That should make perfect sense.

As far as the details on how for instance caffeine, onions and garlic stimulate, I invite others to contribute -- I am certain someone has already researched this, and I don't need to duplicate his efforts.

By the way, may I ask, BVI, are you by chance a follower of Sripad BV Narayana Maharaja? Much of what you have presented appears to draw from his preaching.

Using the term "kalpana" to depict meditation on siddha-deha during sadhana, speaking about "following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman" in protecting your gurus, speaking of allegiance to "Rupa-Raghunatha", etc -- I recognize these factors from the lectures of BV Narayana Maharaja.

Do I conjecture properly, or am I mistaken?

Originally posted by Prema108:

Looks like BVS is starting to lose his 'guru" cool. Could his spiritual realizations be a by product of his political interests? Who knows? But it doesn't look good for him right now.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written a very instructive song, "kRpA koro vaiSNava ThAkura", where he begs to be saved from "guru-abhimAna", which will bring about one's destruction.<blockquote>

<font color=red><center>KRpA Koro VaiSNava ThAkura

by zrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura</center>

<center>kRpA koro vaiSNava ThAkura, sambandha jAniyA

bhajite bhajite, abhimAna hau dUra (1)</center>

O VaiSNava ThAkura! Please give me your mercy – knowledge of my relationship with BhagavAn and the ability to do bhajana, sending my false ego far away.

<center>'Ami to vaiSNava', e buddhi hoile, amAnI nA ho'bo Ami

pratiSthAzA Asi', hRdoya dUSibe, hoibo niraya-gAmI (2)</center>

If I think "I am a VaiSNava," then I will never become humble. My heart will become contaminated with the hope of receiving honor from others, and I will surely go to hell.

<center>tomAra kiGkora, Apane jAnibo, 'guru'-abhimAna tyaji'

tomAra ucchiSTha, pada-jala-reNu, sadA niSkapaTe bhaji (3)</center>

Give me the mercy that I can renounce the false conception of my being guru and can be your servant. Let me accept without duplicity your remnants and your foot-bath water.

<center>'nije zreSTha' jani, ucchiSTthAdi dAne, ho'be abhimAna bhAra

tAi ziSya taba, thAkiyA sarvadA, nA loibo pUjA kA'r (4)</center>

By thinking that I am superior (guru) and giving my remnants to others, I will bring about my destruction. Let me always identify as your disciple and not accept any worship or praise from others.

<center>amAnI mAnada, hoile kIrtane, adhikAra dibe tumi

tomAra caraNe, niSkapaTe Ami, kAGdiyA luTibo bhUmi (5)</center>

In this way I can renounce the desire for honor for myself and can offer respect to others. Weeping sincerely at your lotus feet and rolling on the ground, I pray that you will give me the ability to chant nAma purely.

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Earlier I have asked from BVI, "2. Please specify who quote his writings and sing his songs." Now I have answered the question myself. The songs of Bhaktivinoda are beautiful and saturated with wisdom.

I would appreciate if BVI would clearly address any one, two or all of the straightforward points I have put forth instead of increasing the volume of unfounded statements which do not address my clearly articulated questions and remarks.

On pancami (Friday for the most of us), we celebrate the disappearance day of Sri Ramananda Raya. The following excerpt is from the extensive archives of http://veda.harekrsna.cz , compiled from various sources.

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<font face="Georgia" color=#5D2882><center><big>SRI RAMANANDA RAYA</big></center>

Sri Ramananda Raya was the viceroy of the east and west side of the Godavari River in the empire of Raja Sri Prataparudra. When Mahaprabhu was setting out on his tour of South India, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya especially requested him to meet Ramananda Raya.

"'Please do not neglect him, thinking he belongs to a sudra family engaged in material activities. It is my request that You meet him without fail. Ramananda Raya is a fit person to associate with You; no other devotee can compare with him in knowledge of the transcendental mellows.'[C.c. Madhya 7.63-64]

"As previously, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu converted to Vaisnavism many people He met on the road. After some days, the Lord reached the banks of the River Godavari. When He saw the River Godavari, the Lord remembered the River Yamuna, and when He saw the forest on the banks of the river, He remembered Sri Vrndavana-dhama.

"After performing His usual chanting and dancing for some time in this forest, the Lord crossed the river and took His bath on the other bank. After bathing in the river, the Lord walked a little distance from the bathing place and engaged in chanting the holy name of Krsna.

"At that time, accompanied by the sounds of music, Ramananda Raya came there mounted on a palanquin to take his bath. Many brahmanas, following the Vedic principles, accompanied Ramananda Raya. According to Vedic rituals, Ramananda Raya took his bath and offered oblations to his forefathers.

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu could understand that the person who had come to bathe in the river was Ramananda Raya. The Lord wanted so much to meet him that His mind immediately began running after him.

"Although Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was running after him mentally, He patiently remained sitting. Ramananda Raya, seeing the wonderful sannyasi, then came to see Him. Srila Ramananda Raya then saw Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as brilliant as a hundred suns. The Lord was covered by a saffron garment. He was large in body and very strongly built, and His eyes were like lotus petals.

"When Ramananda Raya saw the wonderful sannyasi, he was struck with wonder. He went to Him and immediately offered his respectful obeisances, falling down flat like a rod. The Lord stood up and asked Ramananda to arise and chant the holy name of Krsna. Indeed, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very eager to embrace him. Sri Caitanya then inquired whether he was Ramananda Raya, and he replied, "Yes, I am Your very low servant, and I belong to the sudra community."

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then embraced Sri Ramananda Raya very firmly. Indeed, both the master and the servant almost lost consciousness due to ecstatic love. Their natural love for one another was awakened in them both, and they both embraced and fell down on the ground. When they embraced one another, ecstatic symptoms - paralysis, perspiration, tears, shivering, palpitations, and paleness - appeared. The word 'Krsna' came from their mouths falteringly.

"When the stereotyped, ritualistic brahmanas who were following the Vedic principles saw the ecstatic manifestation of love, they were struck with wonder. All these brahmanas began to think, 'We can see that this sannyasi has a luster like the effulgence of Brahman, but how is it He is crying upon embracing a sudra, a member of the fourth caste in the social order?' They thought, 'This Ramananda is the Governor of Madras, a highly learned and grave person, a mahapandita, but upon touching this sannyasi he has become restless like a madman.'

"While the brahmanas were thinking in this way about the activities of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu saw the brahmanas and restrained His transcendental emotions. When they regained their sanity, they both sat down, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu began to smile and speak as follows.

"'Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya has spoken of your good qualities, and he has made a great endeavor to convince Me to meet you. Indeed, I have come here just to meet you. It is very good that even without making an effort I have gotten your interview here.'

"Ramananda Raya replied, 'Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya thinks of me as his servant. Even in my absence he is very careful to do me good. By his mercy I have received Your interview here. Consequently I consider that today I have become a successful human being. I can see that You have bestowed special mercy upon Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Therefore You have touched me, although I am untouchable. This is due only to his love for You. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana Himself, and I am only a government servant interested in materialistic activities. Indeed, I am the lowest amongst men of the fourth caste. You do not fear the Vedic injuctions stating that You should not associate with a sudra. You were not contemptuous of my touch, although in the Vedas You are forbidden to associate with sudras. You care the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself; therefore no one can understand Your purpose. By Your mercy, You are touching me, although this is not sanctioned in the Vedas.'

"'You have come here specifically to deliver me. You are so merciful that You alone can deliver all fallen souls. It is the general practice of all saintly people to deliver the fallen. Therefore they go to people's houses, although they have no personal business there." [C.c. Madhya 8.10-39]

"'Along with me there are about a thousand people - including the brahmanas - and all of them appear to have had their hearts melted simply by seeing You. I hear everyone chanting the holy name of Krsna. Everyone's body is thrilled with ecstacy, and there are tears in everyone's eyes. My dear sir, according to Your bodily features and Your behavior, You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such behavior and features are impossible for ordinary living beings, for they cannot possess such transcendental qualities.'"

"The Lord replied to Ramananda Raya: 'Sir, you are the best of topmost devotees; therefore upon seeing you everyone's heart has melted. Although I am a Mayavadi sannyasi, a nondevotee, I am floating in the ocean of love of Krsna simply by touching you. And what to speak of others? Knowing this, in order to rectify My heart, which is very hard, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya asked Me to meet you.' In this way each of them praised the qualities of the other, and both of them were pleased to see one another." [C.c. Madhya 8.41-47]

One Vaisnava brahmana came forward at this time and invited the Lord to accept His midday meal at his house. And so the Lord, after arranging a later meeting with Raya Ramananda, left the Godavari in the company of that brahmana.

Sri Ramananda Raya was the son of Sri Bhavananda Ray, who was previously Maharaja Pandu, the father of the five Pandavas. Bhavananda Raya dedicated all of his five sons, Ramananda (Arjuna?), Gopinatha, Kalanidhi, Sudhanidhi and Baninatha to the service of Sriman Mahaprabhu. His wife was formerly Sri Kuntidevi.

In the afternoon, after Mahaprabhu had finished His bath in the Godavari, He sat down and waited. Ramananda Raya, accompanied by one servant, arrived there. He fell down to offer his obeisances at the Lord's lotus feet. Mahaprabhu pulled him up, and after embracing him very firmly, seated Ramananda next to Himself in a secluded place. Then the two of them, in the madness of ecstatic love, began to converse together on the topics of Sri Krsna. Mahaprabhu asked questions to which Ramananda was to supply the answers.

On the subject of the supreme goal of life, Ramananda first proposed observance of the four orders of social and spiritual life and executing one's duties in accordance with these. Next, one after another, he mentioned renouncing the fruits of one's activities, rendering formal service to the Lord, serving the Lord in devotion mixed with knowledge, and finally pure devotional service.

Though Mahaprabhu assented that the rendering of pure devotional service is the entrance into the ultimate goal of life, he urged Ramananda Raya to go even beyond this. One after the other, Ramananda then described attachment to Krsna in servitorship, friendship, parenthood, and finally conjugal love, to which Mahaprabhu again replied, "Kindly proceed further and tell me something more." Ramananda Raya then explained that amongst the gopis who worship Krsna in conjugal love, the mood of Srimati Radharani is superexcellent.

This Mahaprabhu accepted as being the essense of perfection. As He still wanted to hear more, Ramananda Raya sang a song of his own composition that nicely conveyed Srimati Radharani's confidential mood known as prema-vivarta-vilasa. Hearing this song, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu covered Ramananda's mouth with His hand, confirming that he had expressed the limit of the goal (sadhya) of human life, which could only be realized by the practice of devotional service (sadhana). Then Ramananda Raya explained that Srimati Radharani is the creeper of love for Krsna and her sakhis are like the twigs, flowers and leaves of that creeper of devotion. Sri Krsna is the reservoir of pleasure and Radharani is the greatest manifestation of ecstatic emotions. Finally Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya embraced, crying in the ecstacy of Krsna-prema. Toward the end of the night they concluded their talk and each went to take rest.

The next evening Ramananda again came to Mahaprabhu's lotus feet and offered his prostrated obeisances. Mahaprabhu firmly embraced him and after seating him began to again ask him questions:

"What is the best education?Devotion to Krsna," answered Ramananda Raya.

"What is the greatest activity for a living entity?To be the servant of Krsna."

"What is the supreme wealth?Love of Radha-Krsna."

"What is the greatest unhappiness?To not have the association of devotees of Krsna."

"What is the highes liberation?The best jewel of all kinds of liberation is to develop love for Krsna."

"What is the best song?Songs describing the pastimes of Radha-Krsna."

"What is most auspicious for living entities?The association of a devotee of Krsna."

"What is the only thing we have to remember?Krsna's name, qualities and pastimes."

"What is the only thing to meditate upon?The lotus feet of Radha-Krsna."

"Where is the best place to live?In the place where Krsna has His pastimes."

"What is the best thing to be heard?Descriptions of the loving pastimes of Radha-Krsna."

"What is the only thing which has to be glorified?The name of Radha-Krsna."

"What are the destinations of those who desire liberation, and those who are gross materialistic enjoyers?The first attain bodies as trees and the second, demigods."

Ramananda Raya continued, "Those who are devoid of all mellows are like the crows that suck the juice from the bitter fruits of the nimba tree of knowledge, whereas those who enjoy mellows are like the cuckoos who eat the buds of the mango tree of love of Godhead." Ramananda Raya concluded, "The unfortunate empiric philosophers taste the dry process of philosophical knowledge, whereas the devotees reularly drink the nectar of love of Krsna. Therefore they are the most fortunate of all."

Thereafter Mahaprabhu revealed His form of Radha-Krsna, seeing which Ramananda fell unconscious. Regaining his senses he began to offer hymns and praises in glorification of the Lord. Mahaprabhu requested him to please not reveal any of these esoteric truths to anyone.

When Mahaprabhu was about to take leave of Ramananda Raya, He gave him the following instruction: "Give up all material engagements and come to Jagannatha Puri. I will return there very soon after finishing My tour and pilgrimage. The two of us shall remain together at Jagannatha Puri and happily pass our time discussing Krsna."

When He returned to Puri He found that Ramananda had gotten the permission of Maharaja Prataparudra to leave his post and reside in Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Puri. He had become a close friend of Sri Svarupa Damodara.

Ramananda Raya would compose dramas and then would have them acted out for the pleasure of Lord Jagannatha by young girls. Mahaprabhu stated that the minds of great yogis can become disturbed simply by seeing a female doll, but the mind of Raya Ramananda doesn't slightly waver, even he personally bathed and decorated the bodies of young dancing girls.

Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara were the constant companions of Mahaprabhu during His final pastimes.

"When the Lord acutely felt pangs of separation from Krsna, only Sri Ramananda Raya's talk about Krsna and the sweet songs of Svarupa Damodara kept Him alive." [Cc. Antya 6.6]

"Hearing that Mahaprabhu had closed his earthly pastimes, Maharaja Prataparudra threw himself on the ground and lost consciousness, his head suffering heavy blows with the earth, while Ramananda Raya was only just barely able to remain alive." [b.R. 3.218]

Ramananda Raya's house is still existing at Jagannatha-Ballabha Uddyan, on the Grand Road, Puri.

Sorry for the double posting. This was supposed to go to the Krishna Talk - forum.

On pancami (Friday for the most of us), we celebrate the disappearance day of Sri Ramananda Raya. The following excerpt is from the extensive archives of http://veda.harekrsna.cz , compiled from various sources.

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<font face="Georgia" color=#5D2882><center><big>SRI RAMANANDA RAYA</big></center>

Sri Ramananda Raya was the viceroy of the east and west side of the Godavari River in the empire of Raja Sri Prataparudra. When Mahaprabhu was setting out on his tour of South India, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya especially requested him to meet Ramananda Raya.

"'Please do not neglect him, thinking he belongs to a sudra family engaged in material activities. It is my request that You meet him without fail. Ramananda Raya is a fit person to associate with You; no other devotee can compare with him in knowledge of the transcendental mellows.'[C.c. Madhya 7.63-64]

"As previously, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu converted to Vaisnavism many people He met on the road. After some days, the Lord reached the banks of the River Godavari. When He saw the River Godavari, the Lord remembered the River Yamuna, and when He saw the forest on the banks of the river, He remembered Sri Vrndavana-dhama.

"After performing His usual chanting and dancing for some time in this forest, the Lord crossed the river and took His bath on the other bank. After bathing in the river, the Lord walked a little distance from the bathing place and engaged in chanting the holy name of Krsna.

"At that time, accompanied by the sounds of music, Ramananda Raya came there mounted on a palanquin to take his bath. Many brahmanas, following the Vedic principles, accompanied Ramananda Raya. According to Vedic rituals, Ramananda Raya took his bath and offered oblations to his forefathers.

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu could understand that the person who had come to bathe in the river was Ramananda Raya. The Lord wanted so much to meet him that His mind immediately began running after him.

"Although Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was running after him mentally, He patiently remained sitting. Ramananda Raya, seeing the wonderful sannyasi, then came to see Him. Srila Ramananda Raya then saw Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as brilliant as a hundred suns. The Lord was covered by a saffron garment. He was large in body and very strongly built, and His eyes were like lotus petals.

"When Ramananda Raya saw the wonderful sannyasi, he was struck with wonder. He went to Him and immediately offered his respectful obeisances, falling down flat like a rod. The Lord stood up and asked Ramananda to arise and chant the holy name of Krsna. Indeed, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very eager to embrace him. Sri Caitanya then inquired whether he was Ramananda Raya, and he replied, "Yes, I am Your very low servant, and I belong to the sudra community."

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then embraced Sri Ramananda Raya very firmly. Indeed, both the master and the servant almost lost consciousness due to ecstatic love. Their natural love for one another was awakened in them both, and they both embraced and fell down on the ground. When they embraced one another, ecstatic symptoms - paralysis, perspiration, tears, shivering, palpitations, and paleness - appeared. The word 'Krsna' came from their mouths falteringly.

"When the stereotyped, ritualistic brahmanas who were following the Vedic principles saw the ecstatic manifestation of love, they were struck with wonder. All these brahmanas began to think, 'We can see that this sannyasi has a luster like the effulgence of Brahman, but how is it He is crying upon embracing a sudra, a member of the fourth caste in the social order?' They thought, 'This Ramananda is the Governor of Madras, a highly learned and grave person, a mahapandita, but upon touching this sannyasi he has become restless like a madman.'

"While the brahmanas were thinking in this way about the activities of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu saw the brahmanas and restrained His transcendental emotions. When they regained their sanity, they both sat down, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu began to smile and speak as follows.

"'Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya has spoken of your good qualities, and he has made a great endeavor to convince Me to meet you. Indeed, I have come here just to meet you. It is very good that even without making an effort I have gotten your interview here.'

"Ramananda Raya replied, 'Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya thinks of me as his servant. Even in my absence he is very careful to do me good. By his mercy I have received Your interview here. Consequently I consider that today I have become a successful human being. I can see that You have bestowed special mercy upon Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Therefore You have touched me, although I am untouchable. This is due only to his love for You. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana Himself, and I am only a government servant interested in materialistic activities. Indeed, I am the lowest amongst men of the fourth caste. You do not fear the Vedic injuctions stating that You should not associate with a sudra. You were not contemptuous of my touch, although in the Vedas You are forbidden to associate with sudras. You care the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself; therefore no one can understand Your purpose. By Your mercy, You are touching me, although this is not sanctioned in the Vedas.'

"'You have come here specifically to deliver me. You are so merciful that You alone can deliver all fallen souls. It is the general practice of all saintly people to deliver the fallen. Therefore they go to people's houses, although they have no personal business there." [C.c. Madhya 8.10-39]

"'Along with me there are about a thousand people - including the brahmanas - and all of them appear to have had their hearts melted simply by seeing You. I hear everyone chanting the holy name of Krsna. Everyone's body is thrilled with ecstacy, and there are tears in everyone's eyes. My dear sir, according to Your bodily features and Your behavior, You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such behavior and features are impossible for ordinary living beings, for they cannot possess such transcendental qualities.'"

"The Lord replied to Ramananda Raya: 'Sir, you are the best of topmost devotees; therefore upon seeing you everyone's heart has melted. Although I am a Mayavadi sannyasi, a nondevotee, I am floating in the ocean of love of Krsna simply by touching you. And what to speak of others? Knowing this, in order to rectify My heart, which is very hard, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya asked Me to meet you.' In this way each of them praised the qualities of the other, and both of them were pleased to see one another." [C.c. Madhya 8.41-47]

One Vaisnava brahmana came forward at this time and invited the Lord to accept His midday meal at his house. And so the Lord, after arranging a later meeting with Raya Ramananda, left the Godavari in the company of that brahmana.

Sri Ramananda Raya was the son of Sri Bhavananda Ray, who was previously Maharaja Pandu, the father of the five Pandavas. Bhavananda Raya dedicated all of his five sons, Ramananda (Arjuna?), Gopinatha, Kalanidhi, Sudhanidhi and Baninatha to the service of Sriman Mahaprabhu. His wife was formerly Sri Kuntidevi.

In the afternoon, after Mahaprabhu had finished His bath in the Godavari, He sat down and waited. Ramananda Raya, accompanied by one servant, arrived there. He fell down to offer his obeisances at the Lord's lotus feet. Mahaprabhu pulled him up, and after embracing him very firmly, seated Ramananda next to Himself in a secluded place. Then the two of them, in the madness of ecstatic love, began to converse together on the topics of Sri Krsna. Mahaprabhu asked questions to which Ramananda was to supply the answers.

On the subject of the supreme goal of life, Ramananda first proposed observance of the four orders of social and spiritual life and executing one's duties in accordance with these. Next, one after another, he mentioned renouncing the fruits of one's activities, rendering formal service to the Lord, serving the Lord in devotion mixed with knowledge, and finally pure devotional service.

Though Mahaprabhu assented that the rendering of pure devotional service is the entrance into the ultimate goal of life, he urged Ramananda Raya to go even beyond this. One after the other, Ramananda then described attachment to Krsna in servitorship, friendship, parenthood, and finally conjugal love, to which Mahaprabhu again replied, "Kindly proceed further and tell me something more." Ramananda Raya then explained that amongst the gopis who worship Krsna in conjugal love, the mood of Srimati Radharani is superexcellent.

This Mahaprabhu accepted as being the essense of perfection. As He still wanted to hear more, Ramananda Raya sang a song of his own composition that nicely conveyed Srimati Radharani's confidential mood known as prema-vivarta-vilasa. Hearing this song, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu covered Ramananda's mouth with His hand, confirming that he had expressed the limit of the goal (sadhya) of human life, which could only be realized by the practice of devotional service (sadhana). Then Ramananda Raya explained that Srimati Radharani is the creeper of love for Krsna and her sakhis are like the twigs, flowers and leaves of that creeper of devotion. Sri Krsna is the reservoir of pleasure and Radharani is the greatest manifestation of ecstatic emotions. Finally Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya embraced, crying in the ecstacy of Krsna-prema. Toward the end of the night they concluded their talk and each went to take rest.

The next evening Ramananda again came to Mahaprabhu's lotus feet and offered his prostrated obeisances. Mahaprabhu firmly embraced him and after seating him began to again ask him questions:

"What is the best education?Devotion to Krsna," answered Ramananda Raya.

"What is the greatest activity for a living entity?To be the servant of Krsna."

"What is the supreme wealth?Love of Radha-Krsna."

"What is the greatest unhappiness?To not have the association of devotees of Krsna."

"What is the highes liberation?The best jewel of all kinds of liberation is to develop love for Krsna."

"What is the best song?Songs describing the pastimes of Radha-Krsna."

"What is most auspicious for living entities?The association of a devotee of Krsna."

"What is the only thing we have to remember?Krsna's name, qualities and pastimes."

"What is the only thing to meditate upon?The lotus feet of Radha-Krsna."

"Where is the best place to live?In the place where Krsna has His pastimes."

"What is the best thing to be heard?Descriptions of the loving pastimes of Radha-Krsna."

"What is the only thing which has to be glorified?The name of Radha-Krsna."

"What are the destinations of those who desire liberation, and those who are gross materialistic enjoyers?The first attain bodies as trees and the second, demigods."

Ramananda Raya continued, "Those who are devoid of all mellows are like the crows that suck the juice from the bitter fruits of the nimba tree of knowledge, whereas those who enjoy mellows are like the cuckoos who eat the buds of the mango tree of love of Godhead." Ramananda Raya concluded, "The unfortunate empiric philosophers taste the dry process of philosophical knowledge, whereas the devotees reularly drink the nectar of love of Krsna. Therefore they are the most fortunate of all."

Thereafter Mahaprabhu revealed His form of Radha-Krsna, seeing which Ramananda fell unconscious. Regaining his senses he began to offer hymns and praises in glorification of the Lord. Mahaprabhu requested him to please not reveal any of these esoteric truths to anyone.

When Mahaprabhu was about to take leave of Ramananda Raya, He gave him the following instruction: "Give up all material engagements and come to Jagannatha Puri. I will return there very soon after finishing My tour and pilgrimage. The two of us shall remain together at Jagannatha Puri and happily pass our time discussing Krsna."

When He returned to Puri He found that Ramananda had gotten the permission of Maharaja Prataparudra to leave his post and reside in Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Puri. He had become a close friend of Sri Svarupa Damodara.

Ramananda Raya would compose dramas and then would have them acted out for the pleasure of Lord Jagannatha by young girls. Mahaprabhu stated that the minds of great yogis can become disturbed simply by seeing a female doll, but the mind of Raya Ramananda doesn't slightly waver, even he personally bathed and decorated the bodies of young dancing girls.

Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara were the constant companions of Mahaprabhu during His final pastimes.

"When the Lord acutely felt pangs of separation from Krsna, only Sri Ramananda Raya's talk about Krsna and the sweet songs of Svarupa Damodara kept Him alive." [Cc. Antya 6.6]

"Hearing that Mahaprabhu had closed his earthly pastimes, Maharaja Prataparudra threw himself on the ground and lost consciousness, his head suffering heavy blows with the earth, while Ramananda Raya was only just barely able to remain alive." [b.R. 3.218]

Ramananda Raya's house is still existing at Jagannatha-Ballabha Uddyan, on the Grand Road, Puri.

I never said any such thing, that every one of the babjis is bad. Everyone should be treated as an individual and held responsible for his acts and treated accordingly. Deal a man in his own coin is what my guru says.

 

I am saying that whoever is blaspheming my gurus is going to be villified in public at the very least or worse. That is not something I will tolerate. Your understanding of the reality of Radha Kunda and the persons you think you know so well is not mine. I have different inside information.

Sir, you kindly present this inside information you have. If you have inside information beyond the Vedabase quotes, them please present it to our audience here.

If you make statements such as:

"Even the Radha Kunda Babajis who blaspheme Srila Bhaktisiddhanta..."

"There is alot of false and offensive propaganda being spread to destroy faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and I have found the main source, the Babajis at Radha Kunda."

...and so forth, then you ought to specify the individual who does so. Otherwise people will take it that "the Babajis at Radha Kunda" are all doing like this. So, please specify the individuals who engage in such criticism, or otherwise kindly withdraw your statements and admit that you do not know from where the criticism emanates.

"Deal a man in his own coin is what my guru says." Who is your guru, by the way?

that by the way is the meaning of siddha pranali- to pretend until the real thing happens- utlizing kalpana or imagination).

This is in accordance with the teachings of Bhaktivinoda, Visvanatha, Narottama and the rest. Narottama says (PBC 55-56):

"sAdhane bhAvibo jAha siddha-dehe pAbo tAha, rAga pathera ei se upAya

Whatever I think of during my sAdhana, I will attain in my siddha-deha -- this is the path of Raganuga."

"sAdhane ye dhana cAi, siddha dehe tAhA pAi,

pakkApakka mAtra se vicAra

apakke sAdhana rIti pAkile se prema-bhakti,

bhakati lakSana tattva sAra

The treasure I desire in sAdhana I will attain in siddha deha -- it is just a question of ripe and unripe. The unripe stage is sAdhana, and the ripe stage is prema-bhakti. This is the essence of truth about devotion."

Visvanatha also speaks about serving in an "internally conceived, desired siddha deha" in his Raga Vartma Candrika (1.11): "siddha rupenAntaz-cintitAbhiSTa tat sAkSAt sevopayogi dehena."

The same is very clearly promulgated by Bhaktivinoda in his Harinama Cintamani (15.64-68):

rAdhA-kRSNa aSTa-kAla yei lIlA kare

tAhAra zravaNe lobha haya ataHpare

lobha ha-ile guru-pade jijJAsA udaya

kemane pAiba lIlA kaha mahAzaya

gurudeva kRpA kari karibe varNana

lIlA-tattve ekAdaza bhAva-saGghaTana

prasanna ha-iyA prabhu karibe Adeza

ei bhAve lIlA-madhye karaha praveza

zuddha rUpe siddha bhAva kariyA zravaNa

sei bhAva svIya citte karibe varaNa

" As the aspiring devotee hears about Radha and Krishna's aSTa-kAliya-lIlA, he starts to feel an intense desire one to join Them in Their activities. Possessed by this desire, he asks the spiritual master, 'O great soul, what must I do to attain these pastimes?' The spiritual master then mercifully describes to his disciple the eleven aspects and how they relate to the Lord’s lila. Pleased with his disciple, the spiritual master then orders him, 'Now go and enter the Lord’s pastimes in this identity.' On hearing of his eternal spiritual identity with a pure attitude,

the aspirant accepts it and takes it into his heart." (please read the complete text here)

Who could oppose such a beautiful, systematic method of cultivating and finally attaining one's desired siddha-deha?

This, by the way is not called "siddha pranali", but "siddha deha". Do you know what siddha pranali means?

One specific thing I can state as a fact, that your guru is one of the worst offenders. His so-called bhajan is a farce. His application of his process is a joke. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta pointed out to your revered gurupadapadma 70 yrs ago, you are cut off from the Caitanya branch through your deviant and indiscriminant misuse of a very sacred path revealed by Mahaprabhu, which has degraded to base sahajiya show-bottle spiritualism and offenses against the real acarya who was simply trying to save them.

Your rhetoric is increasing in volume, and I am amused to note how increasingly unfounded it proves to be. My guru is 75 years old, and certainly never met Bhaktisiddhanta, who departed in 1936 -- 66 years ago. Would you propose that Bhaktisiddhanta confronted my guru when he was 11 years old? It is evident that the rest of your allegations are equally unfounded, since you are unable to say anything specific beyond heavily loaded rhethorics.

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[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-30-2002).]

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That's all, folks. Now, comments please.

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A further excerpt from the same discussion.

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I am reminded of Kedarnath Bhaktivinoda, who took up the laborious task of preaching to the Bengali intellectuals of his time, who were keen of various Western views, including the back-then Indologists' views. I would like to present a relevant excerpt from his preface to Sri Krishna-samhita.<blockquote>With folded hands I request the old-fashioned readers to understand that if some conclusion is found herein that is contrary to their preconceptions, it was written with particular persons in mind. Whatever is written about religious codes, however, should be accepted by all.

The conclusions regarding subsidiary topics will yield the result of purifying some particular person's knowledge. There is no profit or loss for one who believes or disbelieves in the different subject matters described in the introduction regarding historical incidents and time according to sastric reason and argument.</blockquote>In other words, Bhaktivinoda agrees on the point that there is no harm in initially accepting a particular view of the scriptural histories, should it be helpful for the path of devotion. As stated therein, "The conclusions regarding subsidiary topics will yield the result of purifying some particular person's knowledge."

Eventually the view of an individual will change from a scientific one into a devotional one, and he can embrace a world of devotion, leaving behind the dry scientific outlook of the world.

We may find verses such as zruti-smRti-purANAdI paJcarAtra-vidhiM vinA and yad zAstra-vidhiM utsRjyA vartante kAma-kArataH of concern while reflecting on the proposal of accepting preliminary conclusions to facilitate acceptance of the path of devotion. We find the conclusion in the words of Bhaktivinoda: "Whatever is written about religious codes (sastra-vidhi), however, should be accepted by all."

To progress with the discussion, I would suggest if there are further concerns over the acceptance of any statements or histories, then they should be specified and examined on an individual basis to discover the context and the essential import of the history / injunction. Where is this carrot story coming from anyway, does anyone have a proper reference to help us see the context?

In the matter of building our faith, it is not necessary for us to import the Puranas into a world of analytical science, since that is not the world where they are intended to be reflected upon. Their message is to be incorporated into a world of devotion within us.

There are two views of the world, rather different from each other:

1. Empirical, scientific view -- not depending on devotion

2. Devotional view -- not depending on empirical views

In other words, let religion be religion, and let science be science. Let the devotional views be accepted within the world of our heart, and let the scientific views be accepted in the world out there. In the ultimate, we are not concerned with a world of science. It will subside to the shadows upon our embracing a life of devotion. This does not mean it is not valid for the world out there. Just that it is not relevant for a life of devotion.

Had Sukadeva Gosvami been overly concerned with explaining a strictly empirical view of the world, he would have set up a telescope and studied the matter. He did not.

<center>The Position of Pratyaksa and Anumana in Gaudiya Epistemology</center>

Let us open the discussion with the following stanza from Jiva's Sarva-samvadini:<blockquote>tathApi brahma-pramAda-vipralipsA-karaNApAtava-doSa-rahita-vacanAtmakaH zabda eva mUlaM pramANam. anyeSAM prAyaH puruSa-bhramAdi-doSa-mayatayAnyathA-pratIti-darzanena pramANaM vA tad AbhAso veti puruSair nirNetum azakyatvAt tasya tad-abhAvAt.

"Although there are ten means of acquiring knowledge, shabda is the primary method, because the other methods are unreliable on account of four human defects (bhramAdi doSa). With the other methods, it is difficult for a person to ascertain whether the knowledge gained is valid."</blockquote>Thus the final, conclusive source of evidence is ascertained. However, the other nine methods of acquiring knowledge are also granted with the status of "pramana", or evidence, and consequently cannot be neglected as non-existent. In fact, we find that in our everyday life we consistently rely on knowledge which would be designated under the headings of "pratyakSa" and "anumAna", in other words, empiricial observations and reasoning.

The Bhagavata boldly declares:

<blockquote><center>yAn AsthAya naro rAjan na pramAdyeta karhicit

dhAvan nimIlya vA netre na skhalen na pated iha</center>

“O King, accepting this [path of devotional service], one will never be bewildered. Even if running with his eyes closed, he will not trip or fall.”</blockquote>Nevertheless, it is a common practice to not run headlong with one's eyes closed. Even great saintly men walk with their eyes open and observe the road ahead. Upon seeing dark clouds on the sky, they reason: "Today it will rain." In this way, for common-place considerations, the ascending path of acquiring knowledge is valid and is relied upon, despite its human flaws, even by saintly men.

A saint will read in the scripture, "A religious man should certainly bathe in the Ganga on Ekadashi to obtain happiness in this world an the next." On the banks of Ganga, he will observe heaps of crocodiles. Then he reasons, "I have seen a man eaten alive by a crocodile, so better I will not bath today." It is obvious that the ascending process of acquiring knowledge has merit, and is not to be denied as entirely invalid. In fact, we find that Sri Bhagavan Himself recognizes the merit of each of the three prominent pramanas:<blockquote><center>pratyakSenAnumAnena nigamenAtma-saMvidA

Ady-anta-vad asaj jJAtvA niHsaGgo vicared iha</center>

"By direct perception, reasoning, scriptural statements and personal realization, one should understand how this world has a beginning and an end, and is temporary by nature. Knowing this, one should live in this world without attachment."</blockquote>As followers of shastra, when we are faced with a conflict between shastra and the observed and logical reality, it is our duty to properly understand and express the correctness of shastra -- to give the shastra its rightful place of honour among mankind -- instead of plainly insisting on its correctness despite evident contradicting evidence. To do so would make both the speaker and the shastra appear foolish in the eyes of the mankind at large.

In the next posting, I will try to shed a reconciling light over the non-ephemeral reality of the Puranas and its relation to the observations of modern science and history.

There are two things I would like to elaborate on, based on the quote above:

1. The position of pratyaksa and anumana in Gaudiya epistemology;

2. The non-ephemeral dimension of Puranic histories.

To avoid posts of excessive length, I will divide my reflections over two concice posts.

I'll post here something I recently put together, reflecting on the matter.

Any thoughts are welcome. I do not claim the essay to be a conclusion, but rather thoughts in development.

I did attempt to present the conclusions as I have understood them. Given my status as a conditioned soul, I may not succeed in establishing truths to an extent which would satisfy everyone. Therefore I am keen to hear others' views on a particular siddhanta. If there is disagreement over a particular presentation, there should be counter-arguments to allow the discussion to proceed. Then, having considered the evidence at our disposal, we may proceed further in pursuit of a conclusion. I am open to hear other views. I took it from your confidence in insisting more and more evidence that you have ample contrary evidence yourself.

No offence implied, no offence taken, and no offence considered. You are a very polite participant in discussions.

In the siddha pranali thread from which this started, I just pointed out that those of us who are discussing are taking the topics to great heights while the basics are themselves unclear.

In regards to what is clear, the basic practices are clear, while the philosophical details behind each and every word may not be clear. To the best of my discretion, awareness or unawareness of certain specific [upanishadic] philosophical details does not cause eligibility for engaging in practices of devotion, or participating in discussions thereof. To propose this would place bhakti in a dependent and subservient position to jnana, which it certainly is not, though jnana is certainly helpful.

I am not going to advertise or glorify such rascals by mentioning their name. They know who they are, and let them be known and attacked by their symptoms. They are not deserving of any such names ending with "dasa" or "babaji" and I will not perpetrate an injustice by referring to them as such.

 

Everyone has the right to follow their own path, I agree. But they don't have the right to blaspheme my guru parampara, as long as I am still breathing, I will be counter-attacking their insidious cowardly attacks against my gurus, also following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman. That is my duty and my vow.

I offer my obeisances to the guru called Vedabase Copy/Paste utility, and I revere the insights obtained by reading statements from 30-year old conversations without any personal study of the same. However, it does not anything substantiate, since it little has to do with present-day reality. Right?

I am just making the point that blanket condemnations of "Radha-kund Babajis", "Gaudiya Math", "ISKCON" and whom not is the very same attitude which turned six million Jews into ashes a few decades ago, "because they were all bad". There is no homogenous mass called "Radha Kund Babajis". Because my revered gurupadapadma resides at Radha Kund, immersed in bhajan, and I know he is not involved in criticizing others, therefore I am aggrieved to read your allegations.

Should there be any genuine desire in anyone to read the truth on such matters, you are invited to browse our Q&A section at http://www.raganuga.com/qa and see for yourself the philosophy and theology promulgated by the present Mahanta of Radha Kund, Ananta Das Pandit Baba.

So if indeed you intend to go on ranting about the ingenuity of those who practice siddha-pranali, and in general on Radha Kund Babajis, then I request you to be specific.

You are yet to answer my two questions:

1. Have you spoken in person with any prominent leader at Radha Kund, even if only for a few minutes?

2. Could you define the meaning of siddha-pranali, as it is understood among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

It will be better if you can answer with brief, personal statements instead of copying one meter of Vedabase on the board, since you are after all an inspirational messenger of realization here.

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, when I asked you very basic questions in the Siddha Pranali thread, you asked me to start this thread. As you have seen for yourself, you have not been able to establish the basic premise of your edifice. This should be obvious to any unbiased observer. Unless you concede this truth, there will be no benefit in my explaining anything. It will not make any one happy. Hari bol!

Yes, I am proven quite foolish by a mighty observer such as yourself. Therefore I submit my utter inability to substantiate my every word based on sruti shastra, and request Ram to proceed and present his conclusive views based on the same. I will be eager to witness the standard of evidence which he considers conclusive. Thank you.

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, how do I defend your proposition ? I will specify my stand and defend it based on the sastras. However, you would agree that this has to be done after you think you cannot defend the stand that you took. But if you still feel you can defend it using sastras, then I would prefer to listen.

Please go ahead and establish your view.

One thing I know for a fact is that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura warns his followers in Sri Bhajan Rahasya that one should not contemplate a siddha deha until he reaches the stage of bhava, otherwise his intelligence becomes bewildered.

To discover the teachings of Bhaktivinoda on sravana-dasa etc. Do you know his theology of panca-dasa? I invite you to study the fifteenth chapter of his Harinama Cintamani entitled "Bhajan Pranali". You can study a comprehensive translation online at http://discussions.raganuga.com , in the "Translations" - section.

Would you like to present the statement of Bhajan Rahasya along with the original text for our evaluation? It appears to contradict Bhaktivinoda's teachings in Caitanya Siksamrtam and Jaiva Dharma in this regard.

Unfortunately for those attached to this position, every direct disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta that was interviewed over the last 25 years by a close associate of mine (practically every GM sannyasi alive) tells the opposite, that Srila Bhativinoda Thakura attained his siddha deha through nama bhajan and not through the siddha pranali method. Who is the authority in this case?

There is a written diksa-patra, or a certificate of initiation, given to Bhaktivinoda by Vipina Vihari Gosvami of Baghnapada. Bhaktivinoda himself received siddha-pranali from Vipina Vihari Gosvami, and he indeed passed this very same lineage onwards to several of his disciples -- to whom he bestowed the same siddha-pranali as well.

It appears that you are not much acquainted with the theology of siddha-pranali. Siddha-pranali does not mean the bestowal of perfection. Perfection is always attained through nama-bhajana, and siddha-pranali is an aid in the realm of nama-bhajana.

By the way, do you know what siddha-pranali means? If so, please explain.

Srila Bhaktivinoda does not express his preference or practice of this siddha pranali method anywhere in his writings that I am aware of.

You may wish to study Harinama Cintamani and Caitanya Siksamrtam in this regard.

Even the Radha Kunda Babajis who blaspheme Srila Bhaktisiddhanta quote from, sing and glorify the songs and teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He was sowing the seeds of future unity which we are yet to realize, but hopefully soon to witness when all these issues become clarified and everyone surrenders.

1. Please specify who are "Radha Kunda Babajis". Moreover, please specify who blasphemes, and where.

2. Please specify who quote his writings and sing his songs.

It appears to me that much of your assumptions in regards to traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not based on your personal studies and acquaintance with the same, but rather on information heard from someone who heard it from someone and so on.

Siddha Pranali is not the method that will globally awaken the fallen souls to Krishna consciousness. That is proven.

Nama-kirtana is the method for awakening the masses. This is declared everywhere in the Gaudiya Granthas. Moreover, nama-kirtana is the method for attaining premAveza. Who claims otherwise?

By the way, "siddha-pranali" is not a "method". Do you know what it means?

There is alot of false and offensive propaganda being spread to destroy faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and I have found the main source, the Babajis at Radha Kunda. They are openly praising Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but are blaspheming Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saying things like he wasn't even initiated--still unable to tolerate the stinging and purifying words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (their well-wisher) that continue to echo across the prema-filled waters of Radha-kunda even 70 years later.

As you boldly present this, I can also boldly declare that you have never discussed for five minutes with any prominent babaji at Radhakund. Am I right?

Can you explain, how did you find that source of offensive propaganda and blasphemy? Moreover, please specify the source. I know most of the prominent people there. Let me know who among them it is who spreads this propaganda. Please do.

In closing, I would like to make two points:

1. It is awkward if representatives of one sub-branch of the Caitanya tree suddenly claim to having become the entire tree, around which all of its other branches and sub-branches should entwine, and without which the other branches become meaningless.

2. In following the precepts of Narottama Das Thakura (PBC 68), we are to keep confidential realizations hidden deep within the heart, and not be talkative about them on the marketplace.

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, On the basis of what sastras do Bhakti Vinod Thakur and Jagannath Dasa Babaji teach Siddha Pranali ?

Ram, in Gaudiya theology we understand that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu brought an unprecedented gift of divine love to this world, something which had not been seen earlier during the present day of Brahma.

The Gosvamis developed and systematized the theology and practices of Mahaprabhu, and though they derived much of their precepts from the old scriptural tradition, given that Mahaprabhu brought something new to this world, it is not reasonable to expect that each and every detail of their religious practices will ever be found in the scriptures predating Sri Caitanya.

In addition to this question, you could for instance ask:

1. Based on which sruti a pancama-purusartha exists as a goal beyond moksa?

2. From which sruti is the term "acintya bhedabheda-tattva" derived?

3. In which sruti are gopi-prema and parakiya-rasa declared as the pinnacle of bhakti?

4. In which sruti is Goloka declared to be the pinnacle of the spiritual world?

Etc.

I take this to be the unique and wonderful contribution of Sri Caitanya. If anyone is unwilling to embrace it, he certainly has the freedom to do so.<small><font color=white>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-29-2002).]

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, does this mean you concede that there is no sastric basis to your proposal of a direct practice that can influence the soul ? As you know, we cannot switch back and forth from one stand to another. So I would like to confirm that you believe that this current stand of yours cannot be substantiated before venturing out into the vedantic view. To use the zen parlance, empty the cup before pouring new tea.

Before proceeding further with the conversation, regardless of my ability or inability to substantiate anything, I wish to hear your shastric view on the matter. Thank you.