raga
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Posts posted by raga
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1) Stop raw sewage from leaking and seeping into Radha Kunda.
2) Take preventative measures to close down and back-fill all septic tanks and fields within 75 feet of the boundary of the kundas (at least the normal modern zoning definition of a safe distance from a well)
I wish to thank you for these words of concern. I have two questions:
1. On what basis do you conclude that the tanks are leaking?
2. Do you know where the present tanks are located?
I take it that you have precise information in this regard, since you brought the issue up.
Get the so-called owner of the lake to inforce this policy. He is the leader right? You are his followers, so lead him if he has no insight, vision or appreciation. You are all realized Western cultured people so you can use your sales and marketing skills to convince him.
Please do remember that while he is the spiritual head there, and responsible for organizing festivals etc., he is not the governor or major of Radha Kund. I am not too familiar with the local bureaucracy, but I suspect this is something to be directly dealt with the government's local representative. Certainly it is not within the jurisdiction of the local Mahanta to decide whether such an operation will be undertaken or not. But I am waiting for further details on the local sewage system from you.
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I also note a similar, if not as obvious approach in your postings. For example, what of the shiksha paramparaa mentioned by Krishna in Bhagavad-giitaa? Hari-bhakti Vilaasa cannot be saying that a genuine paramparaa consists of only diiksha connections. This is clearly wrong. Saying that HbV is for Gaudiiya Vaishnavas only is not an acceptable argument. Even HbV must be faithful to the standards of the mainstream Vedic literature for it to have validity. This cannot be emphasized enough.
Hari Bhakti Vilasa draws its content mainly from the Pancaratras. In the Pancaratrika tradition, diksha is a very essential element in worship. In a lineage where the precepts of worship along with mantras with which one is to worship are given, the lineage will naturally be traced according to diksha.
The example of siksha-parampara in the Gita is not concerned with passing on methods of worship. Certainly siksha-parampara is a legitimate way of tracing a lineage in non-pancaratrika traditions.
If I proceed drawing the evidence from the Pancaratra corpus of literature in arguing the necessity for a diksa-lineage in the Gaudiya tradition, will it be acceptable for you?
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If you wish to continue with the discussion, please do me a favor and list all the points for which you expect an answer, points which you have made and to which I have not responded.
1. Point one
2. Point two
3. Point three
I'll then respond:
>> 1. Point one <<
1. Point one answer
>> 2. Point two <<
2. Point two answer
Like this, please. Then we can get a clear structure for the conversation, and can better keep track of which point has been answered and which point has not. Then perhaps something fruitful may emerge as its outcome.
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Perhaps the mistake is mine in assuming that *you* do not believe the Bhaktisiddhaanta line to be a "new" sampradaaya, but in fact a traditional Gaudiiya Vaishnava lineage. That didn't seem to be the gist of your arguments, but perhaps I misunderstood you. Maybe you could clarify.
The line of Bhaktisiddhanta is undeniably something which differs from the tradition. We may argue about the rightness or wrongness of his reforms, but it is undeniable that introduced practices which had not been a part of the sampradaya's practice prior to his innovations.
1. Giving Brahma-gayatri and upavita to those not born in brahmin families (moreover, joining upavita-samskara with pancaratrika-diksha);
2. Introducing tridandi-sannyasa and saffron cloth for the renunciates;
3. De-emphasizing the traditional methods of Raganuga sadhana, which had been in practice since the days of Mahaprabhu, while emphasizing kirtana as a replacement of the same.
This is certainly indicative of something new and different from the tradition, regardless of its rightness or wrongness.
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You are quoting verses out of order, which is not the way to learn any subject.
Let me clarify one thing first: do you wish to point out faults whenever you get the chance, even if there are no faults?
If I make points on three topics, it is perfectly in place to quote verses from different places of the Gita, and they do not have to be in a numerical order.
there is no need to go to the upanishads so soon. Let us try to understand Gitopanishad which is the essence of all the Vedic knowledge.
Can you prove this assertation based on shruti?
In regards to 3.27 and "vimUDhATmA", I take it to mean "self", "person", the one who experiences existence.
In regards to 15.7 and "karSati", the word refers to the condition of the jIva in the bondáge of prakRti.
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Originally posted by jndas:
"The scientific basis of sewage consciousness". I was really looking forward to this thread.
We are just trying to get to the bottom of the problems. OK?
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We are getting to the bottom of the controversy: In Vedic culture, did the cities have a stool-field where people evacuated whenever the nature called, or did they have a different system for it?
And another question: can anyone prove based on shruti, smriti or any recent commonly accepted itihasa that the Gosvamis walked two kilometers up and down every day for the sake of passing stool? And if so, does anyone know where they went? Then we could all follow in the footsteps of the Gosvamis.
And another question: do the practical ways of the saints' living evolve with the times? Sometimes we hear critique over any sadhu having a fan in his bhajan kutir in Braj. "The Gosvamis didn't have fans, so why should they?" At the time of the Gosvamis, Vraja was jungle for the most part, and jungle was cool. Nowadays no jungle, and people die in the summertime in lack of adequate ventilation. "Radharani kripa!" Well...
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Originally posted by ram:
See, if you see clearly, it is the same colour as the saree. And the effect shown in the picture is the same as lifting one's saree and frock ( the petticoat that is worn inside ).
I think she is wearing not a saree but a so-called "gopi-dress" common in Braj, which has separate top and bottom part to it -- naturally of the same colour.
If you look at the border of the cloth She holds, I can't imagine how you get the effect of lifting the saree (whatever it is) and the pettycoat. If you lift them over someone's head, the border decoration certainly does not touch the ground in the middle, as it does in the picture. Try it out if you don't believe me.
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Originally posted by ram:
See, if you see clearly, it is the same colour as the saree. And the effect shown in the picture is the same as lifting one's saree and frock ( the petticoat that is worn inside ).
I think she is wearing not a saree but a so-called "gopi-dress" common in Braj, which has separate top and bottom part to it -- naturally of the same colour.
If you look at the border of the cloth She holds, I can't imagine how you get the effect of lifting the saree (whatever it is) and the pettycoat. If you lift them over someone's head, the border decoration certainly does not touch the ground in the middle, as it does in the picture. Try it out if you don't believe me.
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Originally posted by ram:
This is with reference tgo Raga's response (the third post above this).
So why is the picture showing the frock instead of using the veil ?
http://raganuga.com/image_raghunatha.htm
I am glad that this atleast is not gaudiya vaishnavism.
Frock instead of veil? It looks like a separate piece of cloth to me in the painting.
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Originally posted by ram:
This is with reference tgo Raga's response (the third post above this).
So why is the picture showing the frock instead of using the veil ?
http://raganuga.com/image_raghunatha.htm
I am glad that this atleast is not gaudiya vaishnavism.
Frock instead of veil? It looks like a separate piece of cloth to me in the painting.
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It is the kripa of Anantadasji. I used to blast venom all over the place with big fangs before arriving at his kind shelter, both in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math. Only now I have become more mellow. I take it that all the books I distributed over the years contributed to the sukriti which brought me to him.Raga, I have to admit, after seeing those last two posts by Sha and Prema108, I am coming to appreciate your culture, at least as the best of the bunch. I don't recall you getting so nasty. As Jagat was appreciating you have been rather polite (though not perfectly so). I think it is the influence of all those BBT books you distributed that is protecting you.
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I just asked you a question, sir.
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JNDas:Of course if someone were to actually quote from Mahabharata or Manu-samhita in a discussion, I suspect the answer would be, "There are many other traditions, we only follow the Goswami's..."
This double standard, of only accepting evidence that supports our own view, is quite disappointing. If the evidence suggests something else, we will reject the whole body of literature simply because we cannot defend a stance traditionally.
Let us see when the day comes as you quote from the Mahabharata or the Manu Samhita. Feel free to quote and give it a try.
The reason for considering the Gosvamis' view first for many is their simple faith in the instructions of Sri Caitanya and his request for them to compile the essence of dharma from all scriptures into their literature. Obviously this is not the way to go for interreligious encounters.
shvu:Hence, concepts like "Bhakti is greater than Mukti" , "Will not accept Mukti even if it is *offered* to us", etc are not Vedic. I am not saying they are false, for no one really knows what is true or false. I am just saying they do not have support from the Vedaas.
I asked it in the other thread already, but could anyone substantiate the following concepts based on Upanishads and Vedanta Sutra?
1. Lakshmi Narayana as the original feature of the Divinity;
2. Nartaka Gopala as the original feature of the Divinity;
3. Radha Krishna as the original feature of the Divinity?
I would be eager to learn from our pandits of shruti.
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JNDas:Of course if someone were to actually quote from Mahabharata or Manu-samhita in a discussion, I suspect the answer would be, "There are many other traditions, we only follow the Goswami's..."
This double standard, of only accepting evidence that supports our own view, is quite disappointing. If the evidence suggests something else, we will reject the whole body of literature simply because we cannot defend a stance traditionally.
Let us see when the day comes as you quote from the Mahabharata or the Manu Samhita. Feel free to quote and give it a try.
The reason for considering the Gosvamis' view first for many is their simple faith in the instructions of Sri Caitanya and his request for them to compile the essence of dharma from all scriptures into their literature. Obviously this is not the way to go for interreligious encounters.
shvu:Hence, concepts like "Bhakti is greater than Mukti" , "Will not accept Mukti even if it is *offered* to us", etc are not Vedic. I am not saying they are false, for no one really knows what is true or false. I am just saying they do not have support from the Vedaas.
I asked it in the other thread already, but could anyone substantiate the following concepts based on Upanishads and Vedanta Sutra?
1. Lakshmi Narayana as the original feature of the Divinity;
2. Nartaka Gopala as the original feature of the Divinity;
3. Radha Krishna as the original feature of the Divinity?
I would be eager to learn from our pandits of shruti.
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Any theology that claims to be based on the Vedas should
1. be based on available smrti
2. be consistent with Vedanta Sutras which are available in full
3. not contradict the available shruti
Now that we speak of it, could you substantiate this precept on the basis of shruti?
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Any theology that claims to be based on the Vedas should
1. be based on available smrti
2. be consistent with Vedanta Sutras which are available in full
3. not contradict the available shruti
Now that we speak of it, could you substantiate this precept on the basis of shruti?
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Originally posted by ram:
First, let us see if there is there any gaudiya vaishnava literature which allows this depiction.
This is a famous history, from Bhakti Ratnakara, I recall. Unfortunately I don't have the original title at my disposal. I'll relate the version found in Rajasekhara Brahmacari's (ISKCON Vrindavan) "The Color Guide to Radha Kunda" to give the outline.
<blockquote><font color=blue>On another day, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was sitting in the sunshine on the banks of Radha Kunda, lamenting in separation from Radharani. As the day wore on, the sun became unbearably hot and Raghunatha started perspiring profusely. Torrents of tears were also flowing from his eyes and making the ground muddy. Srimati Radharani could not bear this scene and personally came there and stood behind Raghunatha dasa. Holding Her veil, She shielded Raghunatha from the scorching sun. Bearing the full force of the sun, Srimati Radharani also started perspiring profusely, which caused Her clothing to become wet and made the ground even more muddy
It so happened that Sanatana Gosvami once again arrived there on a visit and got a shock when he saw Srimati Radharani protecting Raghunatha from the scorching midday sun. Radharani glanced at San5tana, smiled and suddenly disappeared. Sanatana then went over to Raghunatha and disturbed his meditation, admonishing him for taking service from Srimati Radharani, and described to him all that he had witnessed. Raghunatha in disbelief turned around and saw the lotus footprints of Srimati Radharani in the soft muddy earth. Raghunatha them started crying like a child while madly rolling back and forth on the ground."</font></blockquote>This painting ( on the front page of http://www.raganuga.com ) is in the bhajan kutir of Raghunatha Das at Radha Kunda.
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Originally posted by ram:
First, let us see if there is there any gaudiya vaishnava literature which allows this depiction.
This is a famous history, from Bhakti Ratnakara, I recall. Unfortunately I don't have the original title at my disposal. I'll relate the version found in Rajasekhara Brahmacari's (ISKCON Vrindavan) "The Color Guide to Radha Kunda" to give the outline.
<blockquote><font color=blue>On another day, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was sitting in the sunshine on the banks of Radha Kunda, lamenting in separation from Radharani. As the day wore on, the sun became unbearably hot and Raghunatha started perspiring profusely. Torrents of tears were also flowing from his eyes and making the ground muddy. Srimati Radharani could not bear this scene and personally came there and stood behind Raghunatha dasa. Holding Her veil, She shielded Raghunatha from the scorching sun. Bearing the full force of the sun, Srimati Radharani also started perspiring profusely, which caused Her clothing to become wet and made the ground even more muddy
It so happened that Sanatana Gosvami once again arrived there on a visit and got a shock when he saw Srimati Radharani protecting Raghunatha from the scorching midday sun. Radharani glanced at San5tana, smiled and suddenly disappeared. Sanatana then went over to Raghunatha and disturbed his meditation, admonishing him for taking service from Srimati Radharani, and described to him all that he had witnessed. Raghunatha in disbelief turned around and saw the lotus footprints of Srimati Radharani in the soft muddy earth. Raghunatha them started crying like a child while madly rolling back and forth on the ground."</font></blockquote>This painting ( on the front page of http://www.raganuga.com ) is in the bhajan kutir of Raghunatha Das at Radha Kunda.
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This is called getting in tune with Divine arrangement. If you want to propagate imperfect concocted Western culture, values and systems, then why have you joined the Sankirtana movement? If you are against passing stool in fields then you are an atheist, or pasandi for rejecting the Vedic version.
Let us start with your good self. Do you go pass stool on the backyard of your house also during winter time, or are you an atheist?
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Read Manah Siksha verse one on how to get direct service, "Develop unprecendented love for the Brajabasis..." Where is that love if you are finding fault in them and keeping guns for shooting them? Where is the realization? Where is the direct service? Where is the raganuga with priti and purva-kama?
Bhaktivinoda states in his commentary on this verse, "Only pure devotees who live in Vraja with the motive to serve Sri Yugala are vraja-vasis." What would you say to that?
By the way, from where comes the definition "born in Vraja" as Vrajavasi? Vrajavasi means one who lives in Vraja, not one who was born in Vraja. Why not extend the status of being beyond critique to everyone who resides in Vraja (all Vrajavasis), including those who are engaged in vigorous sadhana bhajana there?
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Srila Prabhupada clearly points out that Radha Kundai is meant for liberated souls, and self-realized souls who are authorized to go there to relish the asta-kaliya lila at the stage of bhava or prema. That is something you will not hear them represent.
In the Nectar of Instruction, verse 11, Srila Prabhupada, paraphrasing the words of Bhaktivinoda, states that Radha Kund is the best place for advancing in devotional service, and moreover, it is the best place for those who are interested in attaining their siddha-deha.
<blockquote><font color=blue>It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Krsna in the wake of the gopis if he once takes a bath in Radha-kunda. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Radha-kunda, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service.</font></blockquote>Later on in the same purport, he states that living at Radha Kund is the best means of becoming free from material conceptions:
<blockquote><font color=blue>If, by great fortune, one gets an opportunity to come to Radha-kunda and bathe even once, he can develop his transcendental love for Krsna, exactly as the gopis did. It is also recommended that one should live on the banks of Radha-kunda and should be absorbed in the loving service of the Lord. One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Sri Radha and Her assistant gopis. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Sri Radha in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Radha-kunda. The conclusion is that to live on the banks of the Radha-kunda and to bathe there daily constitute the highest perfection of devotional service. </font></blockquote>Therefore, those who are engaged in the practice of devotional service on the banks of Radha Kunda are the most fortunate, and no intelligent person desires to live elsewhere (NOI 9, 10):<blockquote><font color=blue>Srila Rupa Gosvami has given much stress to Radha-kunda because of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s desire to find it. Who, then, would give up Radha-kunda and try to reside elsewhere? No person with transcendental intelligence would do so.
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Indeed, those who execute devotional service on the banks of Radha-kunda are the most fortunate people in the universe.</font></blockquote>Therefore, how much should we desire to reside there! And how immensely blessed are they, who have been given a place for bhajan at Radha Kunda! Sri Radha Kunda is the best place for both the perfected and the seekers of perfection.
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They are deviant materialistic cheap imitators and you are their proud follower who has done absolutely nothing to propagate this sankirtana movement, only parrot foolishness in the name of philosophy raga and rasa to derail it.
Hmm... let's count the scores, as this is what counts. Here's my estimated scores-sheet:
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- ISKCON -
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Maha-big books: 500
Big books: 4000
Medium books: 150
Recordings: 10000
Small books, magazines: 200
Flyers, posters: 55000
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- Gaudiya Matha -
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Maha-big and big books: 200
Medium and small books: 4000
E-books (website): 7500
Individual visitors (three websites): 20000
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[here I am shifting from streets to cyber highway]
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- Babaji Camp -
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E-books (website): 3500 and counting
Visitors: 15000 and counting
[hard copies of books are yet to come]
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Good for nothing? How many more do I need until I have the credit for going back to Godhead?
<marquee>
</marquee><small><font face=#CCCCCC>[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-02-2002).]
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I cannot discuss with you until to submit to the bona fide process and accept my gurus as the basis of authoritative knowledge.
So, your gurus? This is the fourth time the question is being asked: who is your guru?
Get a spiritual life and get back into ISKCON. Your time is running out.
By the way, are you GBC approved?
Sewage systems
in Spiritual Discussions
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That's what I was thinking about. I'm sure it would also contribute to the good relations of ISKCON people and the others at Radha Kund, if they were to first of all show the example with their tanks, and secondly undertake a campaign to get others to do the same -- and possibly assist management and finance-wise, since this is obviously something they know how to do.