raga

I did not get any final answer from this long thread. I remain your humble confused servant. By this thread, I have become more confused than I previously was. Confusing questions confusing answers! Lets make a new book.

It is called "disagreeing for the sake of agreeing".

Originally posted by ram:

What time is it in Vaikuntha now ?

Call Narayana and ask Him. I only know the time in Vraja. I've never descended to Vaikuntha, so I don't know the time zone down there.

By the way, it's great to be an atma. Give it a try, folks. Be an atma, be in Vaikuntha. All you need is be.

Is the atma, our atma -- I -- right now located in Vaikuntha, eternally rendering service to Sriman Narayana?<small>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-11-2002).]

Carriage does not insure he will go in the proper direction.He may turn left instead of right. The carriage may also give a false sense of security as he rides along in the wrond direction.

Along with the carriage, you are supposed to get instructions on where to go. For the one who wishes to go here and there, why should he accept this burden of love? And for the one who accepts the burden of love with a sincere heart, will he not be guided by the Lord on his journey?

True, he may mistake whimiscalicality(is this a word?) for spontaneaity.But the load in the carriage does not really insure against this.If fact a big load traveling recklessly can pose more dangers for those innocents that cross the carriages path.

"whimiscali<font color=red>cali</font>ty". Something's extra there.

The load does not insure safety, but the order of carrying the load does, to the extent of our sincerity.

A mad elephant will cause havoc with or without a carriage, this we all know.

Madhva comments on 11.11.7:

<blockquote><font color=brown>“Beginningless ignorance is blindness. If the jIva is qualified, and there is favorable endeavor, blindness surely has an end. Otherwise, blindness is simply perpetual. Humans and other conditioned souls are [generally] unqualified.

“As a rule, there is bondage for all jIvas, and it is certainly eternal. To be bound is to be dependent on ViSNu. Blindness is not to see that.

“Now, sometimes blindness will not be eternal. But even for the liberated soul there is bondage, for that is the control of the Lord. The term mukta should be [derived] from duHkha- mokSa, ‘liberation from suffering’. The term baddha [indicates] dependence on Hari. And so even nitya-baddha [eternally bound] souls are liberated because of their liberation from suffering. But the nitya-mukta is one alone: Hari, NArAyaNa, the Lord, because of His independence. Independence belongs to Him alone and no other.” (Quoted from the Mukta-viveka)

anAdy-avidyAndhatvaM jIvasya yadi yogyatA prayatnaz cAnukUla(H) syAd antavad bhavati dhruvaM nityam evAnyathAndhatvam ayogyA mAnuSAdayaH baddhatvaM sarva-jIvAnAM niyamAt nityam eva tu baddhatvam viSNv-adhInatvam andhatvaM tad-adarzanam ataH kvacid anityatvam andhatAyA bhaviSyati muktasyApi tu baddhatvam asti yat sa harer vazaH muktAkhyA duHkha-mokSAt syAd baddhAkhyA hary-adhInatA nitya-baddhA api tato muktA duHkha-vimokSataH | nitya-muktas tv eka eva harir nArAyaNaH prabhuH sva-tantratvAt sva-tantratvaM tasyaikasya na cAparaH--iti mukta-viveka.</font></blockquote>Madhva proposes there is eternal bondage for all living entities, since they are eternally dependent on Hari. The brand of bondage may change from a bond of matter to a bond of spirit (which are both Hari's energies), but to be in bondage is the nature of the jIva. What an interesting perspective!

Statement : Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

 

Response : Who returns and does not return ? You may say, an atma who goes to the Supreme Abode of the Lord does not return. Then it appears that bondage has no beginning but an end. Liberation has a beginning but no end. But has it not been said that that which has a begining is sure to end. This makes bondage and liberation successive, making liberation temporary - just like the case of Jaya Vijaya, who fell down temporarily albeit by the will of God. But liberation is said to be permanent!!!

 

There is a discussion on this very topic in the 11th skandha of the Bhagavata. Uddhava is puzzled by the same issue. I'll post some relevant sections here.

<blockquote>SB 11.10.31, 32, 35-37, SB 11.11.1-7

<font color=blue>

guNAH sRjanti karmANi

guNo ’nusRjate guNAn

jIvas tu guNa-saMyukto

bhuGkte karma-phalAny asau

The material senses create material activities, either pious or sinful, and the modes of nature set the material senses into motion. The living entity, being fully engaged by the material senses and modes of nature, experiences the various results of fruitive work.

yAvat syAd guNa-vaiSamyaM

tAvan nAnAtvam AtmanaH

nAnAtvam Atmano yAvat

pAratantryaM tadaiva hi

As long as the living entity thinks that the modes of material nature have separate existences, he will be obliged to take birth in many different forms and will experience varieties of material existence. Therefore, the living entity remains completely dependent on fruitive activities under the modes of nature.

zrI-uddhava uvAca

guNeSu vartamAno ’pi

deha-jeSv anapAvRtaH

guNair na badhyate dehI

badhyate vA kathaM vibho

zrI Uddhava said: O my Lord, a living entity situated within the material body is surrounded by the modes of nature and the happiness and distress that are born of activities caused by these modes. How is it possible that he is not bound by this material encirclement? It may also be said that the living entity is ultimately transcendental and has nothing to do with the material world. Then how is he ever bound by material nature?

kathaM varteta viharet

kair vA jJAyeta lakSaNaiH

kiM bhuJjItota visRjec

chayItAsIta yAti vA

etad acyuta me brUhi

praznaM prazna-vidAM vara

nitya-baddho nitya-mukta

eka eveti me bhramaH

O my Lord, Acyuta, the same living entity is sometimes described as eternally conditioned and at other times as eternally liberated. I am not able to understand, therefore, the actual situation of the living entity. You, my Lord, are the best of those who are expert in answering philosophical questions. Please explain to me the symptoms by which one can tell the difference between a living entity who is eternally liberated and one who is eternally conditioned. In what various ways would they remain situated, enjoy life, eat, evacuate, lie down, sit or move about?

zrI-bhagavAn uvAca

baddho mukta iti vyAkhyA

guNato me na vastutaH

guNasya mAyA-mUlatvAn

na me mokSo na bandhanam

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of mAyA, which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage.

zoka-mohau sukhaM duHkhaM

dehApattiz ca mAyayA

svapno yathAtmanaH khyAtiH

saMsRtir na tu vAstavI

Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of mayA are all creations of My illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.

vidyAvidye mama tanU

viddhy uddhava zarIriNAm

mokSa-bandha-karI Adye

mAyayA me vinirmite

O Uddhava, both knowledge and ignorance, being products of mAyA, are expansions of My potency. Both knowledge and ignorance are beginningless and perpetually award liberation and bondage to embodied living beings.

ekasyaiva mamAMzasya

jIvasyaiva mahA-mate

bandho ’syAvidyayAnAdir

vidyayA ca tathetaraH

O most intelligent Uddhava, the living entity, called jIva, is part and parcel of Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since time immemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated.

atha baddhasya muktasya

vailakSaNyaM vadAmi te

viruddha-dharmiNos tAta

sthitayor eka-dharmiNi

Thus, My dear Uddhava, in the same material body we find opposing characteristics, such as great happiness and misery. That is because both the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is eternally liberated, as well as the conditioned soul are within the body. I shall now speak to you about their different characteristics.

suparNAv etau sadRzau sakhAyau

yadRcchayaitau kRta-nIDau ca vRkSe

ekas tayoH khAdati pippalAnnam

anyo niranno ’pi balena bhUyAn

By chance, two birds have made a nest together in the same tree. The two birds are friends and are of a similar nature. One of them, however, is eating the fruits of the tree, whereas the other, who does not eat the fruits, is in a superior position due to His potency.

AtmAnam anyaM ca sa veda vidvAn

apippalAdo na tu pippalAdaH

yo ’vidyayA yuk sa tu nitya-baddho

vidyA-mayo yaH sa tu nitya-muktaH

The bird who does not eat the fruits of the tree is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who by His omniscience perfectly understands His own position and that of the conditioned living entity, represented by the eating bird. That living entity, on the other hand, does not understand himself or the Lord. He is covered by ignorance and is thus called eternally conditioned, whereas the Personality of Godhead, being full of perfect knowledge, is eternally liberated.</font></blockquote>

Please note that the translations (from the BBT edition) are often not very literal. Therefore the original Sanskrit is included.

Statement : During sleep (in dream) he transcends this world and all the forms of death (all that falls under the sway of death, all that is perishable).

Response : Case for Tyelenol PM ? - What kind of sleep ? It has been already said that transcendence is permanent. But sleep in the material world is not permanent. So one understands that it is not the conventional sleep. This is the yoga nidra or sleep in union with the Lord. It is also said that this sleep is attained in the dream! As the dream is unreal, so should the sleep in the dream be. But the transcendence is eternally the same because the Self remains the same.

Of course the dream is non-permanent and illusory. However, it is stated that the spiritual living entity is in a state of svapna. Whether yoga-nidra with the Supreme or anything else, it is a condition different from being in an active status of servitude in Vaikuntha.

Originally posted by theist:

The carriage is not the director.The rider may choose to ride on the horse without the carriage.

 

Giddiyup!!

 

 

A rider with a horse & carriage knows he must go somewhere with the carriage. A rider with a horse without a carriage may go joyridin' just about anywhere, if he is not very strong. The load of carriage keeps you on the road; a symbol of commitment, let us say.

Originally posted by kailasa:

With out horse may long time lay in carriage.

 

 

And without carriage, horse may not know where to go.

Diksa = yagya?

Actually a fire yajna is a part of the diksha-ceremony only in Gaudiya Math and its sub-branches. It was introduced when Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati joined the upanayana-samskara of giving brahmin thread and brahma-gayatri with the pancaratrika-diksha where mantras for arcana are given. The fire sacrifice ("yajna") is a part of upanayana-samskara, and it serves a purpose in "installing" the brahma-gayatri. It is not a part of traditional pancaratrika-diksha.

I for example have love of the girl. And later married her. Love it diksa. Yagya does not mean diksa, nevertheless there is an external standard initiation. What it is better yagya or love?

What is better, marriage or love? Some say in a sane society they go hand in hand. Conjugal love without marriage is not acceptable in the eyes of the society, and marriage without love is rather stiff.

They say, "Love and marriage, goes together like a horse and carriage."

Without explaining how the soul which is full of knowledge and unborn becomes ignorant and bound, you are in a dead end. What is the point in raking new topics. Even if I answer them, it may not be useful.

Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

Will you respond to the excerpt from Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad?

<small>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-10-2002).]

I suppose you were initiated in ISKCON by SP and then left. SP has been the source of GVV knowledge to the western world - world at large in fact. I suppose you are his disciple.

No, I am not his disciple, and I did not receive initiation from him.

The world of prakRti is illusory. tejo vAri mRtam yatA. So the only thing that is there is brahman - sarvam khalv idam brahman. So dont be bothered with the changing world. This is synonymous to saying vAsudevam sarvam iti.

vAsudevam sarvam iti is certainly true, since zakti-zaktimator abhedaH.

I wont bother to answer 15.7 because you are yet to answer the meaning that you take for karsati.

KarSatI -- pulling to and fro , dragging , tormenting , vexing .

Why do Guadiya Vaishnava acharyas quote from any other literature like Padma Purana and even Skanda Purana ? Where is the need for Caitanya Caritamrta ? And countless other later day literatures ?

Whatever is in harmony with the message of the Bhagavata is accepted, quoted and relished among Gaudiya Vaishnavas. However, no emphasis is given for the sadhaka to extensively study other literature, since Bhagavata contains all the essential conclusions for developing suddha-bhakti. Countless later day literatures are elaborations on the Bhagavata, following in the wake of its inner mood.

Originally posted by ram:

Let me just contribute my few more paisa.

 

If you have the time, energy and interest, put in all your dollars and I will take it. But without that it may not be fruitful. -

My bucks are already invested. I only have a few spare cents left to go, and I'll be using them sparingly. Let me give it a try anyway. Let me try this one, explaining the concept of jiva's being "tatastha-shakti" (marginal energy). Some shruti for change.

From the Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad: <font color=blue><blockquote>7. Ganaka Vaideha asks: “What is the self?” Yajnavalkya replies, speaking about the self as follows:

Yajnavalkya replied: "He who is within the heart, surrounded by the pranas (senses), the person of light, consisting of knowledge. He, remaining the same, wanders along the two worlds, as if thinking, as if moving. During sleep (in dream) he transcends this world and all the forms of death (all that falls under the sway of death, all that is perishable).

8. "On being born that person, assuming his body, becomes united with all evils; when he departs and dies, he leaves all evils behind.

9. tasya vA etasya puruSasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaJ ca paraloka-sthAnaJ ca

sandhyaM tRtIyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne pazyatIdaJ ca paraloke-sthAnaJ ca

(Brihad Aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9)

"For this person, there are two states, one in this world and one in the world beyond. He is in a third, marginal state, the state of sleep. Situated in this position of juncture, he sees both states."</font></blockquote>From this it is evident that there are different states of being for the jIvAtma, and its eternal, spiritual nature is not mixed with matter (though focused on it), thus remaining unchanged.

Besides, sarvam khalv idam brahma, it is all various manifestations of brahman, so how could there be any adulteration with something else than brahman! And if it is all brahman, how can there be adulteration in its nature of spirit, even if the jIvAtma were in touch with prakRti through its conscious faculty! At any rate, we perceive different states of awareness in the jIvAtma, and consequently there are varieties of divine impetus which have effect on the jIvAtma.

Question : Is there proof in the shruti (or anywhere) to back up the idea that the soul (Atma) is equal to brahman in all respects?

 

Answer : Yes. ahamasmi brahmaahamasmi. aham brahmasmi. tat tvam asi.

How about "sarvam khalv idam brahma"? Everything is brahman, including the prakRti. Nevertheless, we observe changes in this brahman. Therefore the jIvAtmas are said to struggle with mind and senses in the Gita (15.7) in this material world. All the attributes of parabrahman, paramatma or brahmajyoti do not apply to the jIvAtma's faculty of consciousness.

Let us see why Jiva Gosvami did not use this statement to establish Bhgavatham as the only authority.

Jiva quotes a very similar verse (BhP. 12.13.15):

sarva-vedAnta-sAraM hi zrI-bhAgavatam iSyate

tad-rasAmRta-tRptasya nAnyatra syAd ratiH kvacit

"Srimad Bhagavatam is the essence of all Vedanta, spoken by Sri Bhagavan. Having tasted its rasa-amrita, one will not be attracted to any other literature." [The word "literature" is an evident meaning for the "other", drawing from the context in Bhagavata, where it is declared the supreme among Puranas.]

There are many similar statements therein. Prior to that, Jiva presents heaps of material from other sources to establish the eminent position of the Bhagavata, since it would be circular to begin with the statements of that which is to be established.

<small>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-09-2002).]

There are no contradictions in the Vedas. If the brahman is eternally without fault, there cannot be another verse which says that the soul gets muddied by matter and is rehabilitated. In these verses, there is no mention of atma and paramatma in the verses themselves.

Let me just contribute my few more paisa.

Is there proof in the shruti (or anywhere) to back up the idea that the soul (Atma) is equal to brahman in all respects?

The soul is not affected by the illusory material personalities (tejo vAri mRtam yatA).

This verse does not particularly speak about the relationship of atma and matter. It just speaks about the suras being bewildered.

I would also like to note that if you quote from the Bhagavata, you'll have to accept its authority in full (according to your own logic). The Bhagavata (1.1.2) states:

zrImad-bhAgavate mahA-muni-kRte kiM vA parair IzvaraH

sadyo hRdy avarudhyate ’tra kRtibhiH zuzrUSubhis tat-kSaNAt

"Since Maha-muni Vyasa compiled the Srimad Bhagavata, where is the need for anything more? As pious men serve this Bhagavata, without delay the Supreme Lord will appear within their hearts."

Do you agree with this statement? If so, then we have no more need to refer to shruti-shastra.

Originally posted by ram:

Even though some philosphical problems that we can point out, Gaudiyas have given the world hari nama. How can there be defect, where there is hari nama ?

We may consider if we wish to call varying interpretations "philosophical problems".

Originally posted by ram:

Even though some philosphical problems that we can point out, Gaudiyas have given the world hari nama. How can there be defect, where there is hari nama ?

We may consider if we wish to call varying interpretations "philosophical problems".

Kindly excuse me for signing out of this discussion. I do not have the time, the energy nor the interest for unlimited counter-counter-counter arguments.

Where is the Atma in your fish-example? Is it the desert? If so, please explain the similarity between desert/fish and atma/false-identity. The desert does not contribute to the existence or consciousness of the fish as atma does to the existence of the false-identity.

Also, I have so far established my points in a self-consistent manner without contradictions. Is it possible for me, who am a mere mortal ? It should be obvious to you that this only possible for a Vedanta school of thought.

"Self-consistent manner" -- Well, I guess it depends on who's looking at it.

Recognized! by whom may I ask ?

Yes, you may. By anyone. Any school of thought.

Originally posted by ram:

You are brahman (tat tvam asi) and by your nature you know that (vipascin). There is no such thing as ignorant genius or a foolish brahman. In the illusory material world, your material personality thinks I am this and that. Vedas teach you that it is not true. It tells you that you are like a man in the dream or fish in a mirage. Vedas also teach us that there is a real you - the soul or brahman.

"In the illusory material world, your material personality thinks I am this and that. Vedas teach you that it is not true."

What do you mean? The material personality consists of a combination of material elements with particular characteristics, which combine into a certain "personality". That is certainly true. The body and the mind are what they are.

This is like the fish in the mirage saying the water in the mirage is sweet or salty. The desert is not affected whether the the fish in the mirage is finding the water sweet or salty. There is no problem that is worth solving because there is no real problem to solve. Otherwise, the Lord would have solved it.

The example above is far-fetched and disfunctional.

1. There are no fishes in the deserts.

2. Mirages do not have a taste.

3. A desert is not a conscious entity.

4. The relationship between the fish and the desert does not resemble the relationship between the atma and the ahankara-produced identity.

5. The relationship between the fish and the mirage is not the same as between the ahankara-produced identity and the prakriti.

I wonder if your flow of conceptions draws from any recognized school of Vedanta. Which school's conceptions do you follow, Ram?

We, the material personalities produced by this illusory material world (ahankara etc.), are not aware of our true blissful nature, the nature of brahman.

Are you saying that a combination of elements of prakRti is not aware of its true nature of being the Atma?

Why is Gopaala Taapani a "recent Upanishad?" This is news to me.

 

The GTU, along with the Krishna Upanishad, are in the listing of 108 Upanishads given in the Muktika Upanishad. We had this discussion on the now defunct soc.religion.vaishnava some years back, and at that time I distinctly remember that Vidyasankar Sundaresan (now the maintainer of the Advaita website), stated that Sri Brahmendra Yogin of the Shankara sampradaaya actually commented on this Upanishad, along with many others. In fact, I remember that Vidya also gave a listing of 108 principle Upanishads that was identical to the listing given in Srila Prabhupada's CC purport (which was supposed to have been taken from the Muktika Upanishad).

Here I am presenting a common academic view, according to which Gopala Tapani is among the later Upanishads, dating to 13th-14th century. Muktikopanisad itself is undated, so it does not validate much.

Please note that I merely made the point that one may question until the end of his life if he wishes to pursue the path of questioning instead of the path of practice and realization.

Why is Gopaala Taapani a "recent Upanishad?" This is news to me.

 

The GTU, along with the Krishna Upanishad, are in the listing of 108 Upanishads given in the Muktika Upanishad. We had this discussion on the now defunct soc.religion.vaishnava some years back, and at that time I distinctly remember that Vidyasankar Sundaresan (now the maintainer of the Advaita website), stated that Sri Brahmendra Yogin of the Shankara sampradaaya actually commented on this Upanishad, along with many others. In fact, I remember that Vidya also gave a listing of 108 principle Upanishads that was identical to the listing given in Srila Prabhupada's CC purport (which was supposed to have been taken from the Muktika Upanishad).

Here I am presenting a common academic view, according to which Gopala Tapani is among the later Upanishads, dating to 13th-14th century. Muktikopanisad itself is undated, so it does not validate much.

Please note that I merely made the point that one may question until the end of his life if he wishes to pursue the path of questioning instead of the path of practice and realization.

If all souls are eternally conscious of their nature, then why do we bother doing any spiritual practices at all? Anyway the soul is aware of his glory forever.