raga

Gopala Guru Gosvami, drawing from the Brahmanda Purana (and adding the second stanza), has presented the following meaning for the maha-mantra: = = = = = vijJApya bhagavat-tattvaM cid ghanAnanda vigraham | haratyavidhaM tatkAryamato haririti smRtaH || harati zrI-kRSNa-manaH kRSNAhlAda-svarUpinI | ato harety anenaiva zrI-rAdhA parikIrtitA || AnandaikasukhaH zrImAn zyAmaH kamala locanaH | gokulAnando nanda-nandanaH kRSNa Iryate || vaidagdhI sArAsarvasvaM mUrtalIlA dhidaivatam | zrI rAdhAM ramayan nityaM rAma ity abhidIyate || "The Lord is known as Hari because he takes away the ignorance of his devotees by revealing to them the actual nature of the Supreme Lord and his personal spiritual form. Because She steals Krishna's mind, because She is the incarnation of Krishna's joy, Radha is also known by the name Hara. The dark, lotus-eyed lord, the only master of the highest joy, who brings pleasure to Gokula, the son of Nanda, is known as Krishna. Krishna is also known as Rama because the joys of conjugal life are the essence of his being, because he is the titulary deity of loving sports incarnate, and because he brings pleasure to Srimati Radharani." = = = = = Relevant excerpts from his commentary on the maha-mantra: = = = = = hare - krsnasya mano haratiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! Radha is known as Hara because she steals Krishna's mind. I call out to her, O Hare! O Radhe! hare - krsnasya lokalajjadhairyadi sarvam haratiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! Radha steals Krishna's sense of public shame and his self-possession. She steals everything of his and is thus known as Hara. I therefore call out to her, O Radhe! O Hare! hare - yatra krsno gacchati tisthati va tatra tatra pasyati radha mamagre parsve sarvatra tisthatiti hara, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! Wherever Krishna goes, wherever he is situated, he sees Radha in front of him, by his side, all around him. In this way she disturbs his mind. I call out to her, O Radhe. O Hare! hare - punas tam krsnam harati sva-sthanam abhisarayatiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! She once again steals Krishna away, making him come to her abode to meet her. She is thus known as Hara. I thus call out to her, O Radhe! O Hare! hare - krsnam vanam harati vanam agamayatiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! She once again steals Krishna away, making him come to her kunja. She is thus known as Hara. I thus call out to her, O Radhe! O Hare! hare - tatkalikam dhairyavalambanadikam krsnasya haratiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! She robs Krishna of the momentary self-control he is able to muster in her presence. She is thus known as Hara, and so I call out to her, O Radhe! O Hare! hare - punah rasante krsnasya mano hrtva gacchatiti hara radha, tasyah sambodhane he hare | Hare! Once again, at the end of the Rasa dance, as she leaves to return home, she steals Krishna's mind and takes it away with her. She is thus known as Hara, and I therefore call out to her, O Radhe! O Hare! = = = = = There's plenty more, but that should give the idea.

varsane = in Varsana As in: rAdhArANI kI jay mahArANI kI jay varSAne vAlI kI jay jay jay

Seriously, does he expect someone to believe this? He publishes such a rant and doesn't bother even checking up what it's about? Either he is a liar or a terribly irresponsible editor. You pick. I have always been under the impression that in parampara the authority descends instead of ascending. Do the previous acaryas validate the present guru, or vice versa? If some statements made by the previous acaryas cannot be found in the writings of Prabhupada, are they de facto invalid evidence in a philosophical discussion? I find this attitude most concerning.

There's a word missing here after "at".

Try danavir.goswami@pamho.net .

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Babhru is working on a response. Any clues when you'll have it ready?

I bet folks like Danavir who go on a rally and declare how "none of the previous acaryas" etc. never read a bit from the previous acaryas. Jagat has compiled most of the relevant tikas to Grantha Mandir. Download the tika of Visvanath and send it to Danavir, ask him to compare them and tell us if there is an issue. http://www.granthamandira.org/categories.php?cat_id=12 A man with an attitude is lost in the Vedabase, that's my diagnosis. By the way, did anyone pay attention to the fact that he hardly quoted anything from the book he critiqued?

Baba's Makaranda-kana-vyakhya on the 20th verse of Utkalika-vallari sheds more light on the significance of the month of Kartika. <hr> <font color="darkblue">bhavatIm abhivAdhya cATubhir varam Urjezvari varyam arthaye | bhavadIyatayA kRpAM yathA mayi kuryAd adhikAM bahAntahaH || 20 || "O Urjesvari (Radhika, the goddess of the Kartika-month)! I pitifully pray to You for this benediction: May Bakanthaka (Krishna, the killer of Bakasura) be more kind to me, knowing me to be Yours!" When Sri Rupa Gosvami prays, he calls Radharani "Urjesvari". The month of Kartika (October-November) is also called Urja, and therefore Sri Rupa means to call Sri Radha "O presiding goddess of the month of Kartika". This address indicates Sri Radha's superiority. In the Uttara-khanda of the Bhavisya-purana it is said: saGketAvasare cyute praNayataH samrabdhayA rAdhayA prArabhya bhrukuTIM hiraNya rasanA dAmnA nibaddhodaram | kArtikyAM jananI kRtotsava vare prastAvanA pUrvakaM cATuni prathayantam Atma pulakaM dhyAyema dAmodaram || "Once, in the auspicious month of Kartika, Krishna could not meet His beloved Radharani in the kunja on time, so Srimati frowned Her eyebrows out of loving anger and bound Krishna around the belly with a golden rope. Sri Krishna then explained to Her that He was late from His appointment, because He had been held up in Mother Yashomati's festival, so Srimati released Him again. Since then, Sri KRishna has been called Damodara, or Nivi Damodara (the girdle-Damodara). We meditate on this Damodara, who is studded with goosepimples of loving ecstacy!" The month of Kartika is also called the month of Damodara. It is not just the month in which Mother Yashoda bound up Krishna, but also the month in which Sri Radha bound Him up. At first, the ropes with which Mother Yashoda tried to bind up Krishna were two fingers too short because of her lack of eagerness, and it took her a lot of trouble to get Krishna bound up; however, Sri Radha's loving eagerness was so great that She easily bound up Krishna, and released Him again, too. By calling Sri Radha the goddess of the month of Kartika, Srila Rupa Gosvami has indicated Her absolute supremacy over all the other devotees.</font color> <hr>

From Pandit Sri Ananta Dasji's tika on Raga-vartma-candrika (1.14): <hr> <font color="darkblue">Since observance of the Kartika vow or Niyama Seva is simultaneously a direct and an indirect cause of the attainment of the desired feelings, it is related to the desired feeling. The indirect cause is the aspect of austerity in maintaining strict restrictions on eating, and the direct cause is the part of observing a certain quota of hearing and chanting. In the month of Kartika, there is more attention given to the regulative principles of hearing and chanting and the worship of Sri Radha-Damodara than in other months of the year, because if one performs even only a little bhajana in this time, Sri Radha-Damodara will accept it as a great thing. On the other hand, it is said that if one does not follow the vow of Kartika, there will be a terrible reaction. In the Skanda Purana, it is written: avratena kSiped yas tu mAsaM dAmodara priyam tiryag yonim avApnoti sarva dharma bahiSkRtaH sa brahmahA sa goghnaz ca svarNasteyI sadAnRtI na karoti muni-zreSTha yo naraH kArtike vratam “Lord Brahma told Narada: “O greatest of sages, Sri Narada! A person who lives through the month of Kartika, which is dear to Lord Damodara, without observing some vow, is cast out of all religions and attains an animal birth in the next life. Anyone who does not observe the Kartika vow is the killer of a brahmana, the killer of a cow, a gold-thief and a constant liar.” Therefore this vow is eternal, just as the Ekadasi-vow is. It is known that when one takes shelter of Sri Krsna’s playground, Sri Vraja-dhama, and observes the vow of Niyama Seva, he will obtain the rarely attained treasure of hari-bhakti. In his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu grantha, Srimat Rupa Gosvami has quoted verses from the Sri Padma Purana about the Urja-limb of bhakti, and has thus shown the special glories of observing the vow of Kartika while taking shelter of Vraja-dhama: bhuktiM muktiM harir dadyAd arcito ‘nyatra sevinAm bhaktiM ca dadAtyeva yato vazyakarI hareH sA tvaJjasA harer bhaktir labhyate kArtike naraiH mathurAyAM sakRd api zrI dAmodarapUjanAt “When Sri Krsna is served outside of Vraja-dhama by complacent persons, He may bestow sense enjoyment or liberation, but not bhakti, for it is not proper for Him to accept subjugation to complacent devotees, who have no loving attachment to Him. But even a person who performs no sadhana will attain the precious gift of Sri Hari-bhakti when observing the Sri Damodara-puja in Mathura even once.” In his commentary on this verse, Srimat Jiva Gosvami has written: vazyakarItavam atra sukha-dAnenaiva jJeyaM na tu duHkha-dAnena. ato bhaktyadAne na tad atra prayojakaM kintu tena lakSitaM paramotkRSTatvam eva. tathAvidhA ca sA nAyogye sahasA dAtuM yogyeti yAvad agyogyatA tAvad bhagavatA na dIyata eva. yogyatA ca sarvAnya sva hita nirapekSatvam eva. tasmAd yogyatAyAm eva satyAM dAtavyatve ‘pi yadi mathurA kArtikayoH saGgame pUjanaM ghaTate tadA yogyatAvirahitenApi vastu prabhAvAt sahasaiva prApyata eveti bhAvaH – “No one should think after reading the ‘yato vasyakari hareh’-part of the sloka that since the Lord is subdued by devotion, He does not give bhakti. Sri Hari’s subjugation to devotion makes Him most happy and never unhappy. Therefore, the words ‘through which Sri Hari is subdued’ are not used to disrespect or slight devotion. Rather, they establish bhakti as the greatest thing. It is never proper to give such a supreme thing as devotion to an unworthy recipient, therefore Sri Hari does not bestow bhakti unless and until the qualification is there in the recipient. Qualification for attaining prema comes when one desires only that, without bothering about any other personal benefits. To such a deserving recipient Sri Hari gives prema. But if one worships Sri-Sri Radha-Damodara in Vraja-dhama just once in the month of Kartika, then, simply on the strength of that, even an unqualified person will attain prema.” The blessed author says: “In his books like Stavamala, Srimat Rupa Gosvamipada has repeatedly mentioned Sri-Sri Radharani’s holy names of kartika devi, urja-devi and urjesvari, therefore it is understood that those who observe the vow of Kartika will be blessed by attaining the lotus feet of Sri Vrndavanesvari.”</font color>

This is a hilarious argument, the parallel is illogical. You may have noted that opportunities for "going West" have not been widely available until the 1900's. Now that it is easily possible, you find people going to West. Initiating or not-initiating Westerners was not much of an issue because there was not all that much significant interaction between Gaudiya Vaishnavas and Westerners. However, diksa-paramparas have been an established part of the tradition for centuries. You could extend this logic of yours to any degree of absurdity. Say, the tradition hasn't been using LSD for the last 500 years. Now, if Jayatirtha Swami chooses to introduce LSD into the daily sadhana of devotees, does that make it right or wrong?

Thank you, this is very generous of you. Sums it up quite well.

Prabhupad said this is from Tulsidas, and cited it on several occasions. === Prabhupada: Yes. That is Tulasi dasa's remark. So in many passages of his poetry he has not done very justice to woman. And another poetry, he writes, dhol gunar sudra nari. Dhol gunar sudra nari ihe sab sasan ke adhikari.(?) Dhol gunar pasu sudra nari, ihe sab sasan ke adhikari. Dhol, dhol means drum, mrdanga. Gunar, gunar means... What is called English? A fool, fool. Illiterate fool, what is one word? Brahmananda: Buffoon? Prabhupada: Maybe buffoon. Buffoon is sometimes troublesome. But gunar means he doesn't understand very nicely. Brahmananda: Dullard. Prabhupada: Dull, dull. Dhol gunar, dhol means drum and gunar means dull. Sudra, and the laborer class. Three. Dhol, gunar, sudra, and pasu, household animals, just like cows, dogs. Brahmananda: Pet. Prabhupada: Pet, like that. Dhol gunar sudra pasu and nari. Nari means woman. (laughs) Just see. He has classified the nari amongst these class, dhol, gunar, sudra, pasu, nari. Ihe sab sasan ke adhikari. Sasan ke adhikari means all these are subjected for punishment. === Prabhupada: That's all. Murkhasya lakutausadhi(?). When a person is fool number one, beat him. That's all. Dhol gobara...(?) Tulasi dasa has said, dhol gobara sudra pasu nari, ei saba sasana ke adhikari. Dhol, drum, you have to bring it to the tune by beating, "tung, tung." Gobara. Gobara means fool person. Pasu, animal. Dhol, gobara, pa..., sudra, and nari, woman. They should be punished to bring them into order. Ei saba sasana ke adhikari. Otherwise they will spoil. A barking dog, you cannot pacify him, "My dear dog, don't bark." It will disturb him: "No!" Dhol gobara sudra pasu nari, ei saba sasana ke... ===

I suppose you've never heard of Baba Premananda Bharati? I suppose you've never heard of Yashoda Ma and his student Richard Nixon (Krishna Prema Das)? Besides, I bet you haven't studied the history of the Gaudiya sampradaya much beyond some elementary ideas available in ISKCON. I suppose I'll "call your bluff" now, as JNdas is fond of doing with Gaurasundara whenever he claims something he can't back up and hasn't studied. Please don't forget to sign your posts if you become more involved.

You don't seriously expect me to accept this as evidence? At least give me a couple of generations or something. Who among the followers of Das Gosvami gave this as his parampara? Who among the "grand-disciples" of Das Gosvami listed "Svarupa - Raghunatha Das - Any Guru - Myself" as his parampara? Yes, Svarupa did have a very significant influence in Das Gosvami's life, more than Yadunandan Acarya had, this is not in debate; nobody has ever claimed that a siksa-guru cannot have more influence than a diksa-guru.

I have occasionally observed that sentences befitting the Gaudiya Math claims are put into the mouths of previous mahatmas to support their rhetoric. What is the source of this statement attributed to Jagannath Das Babaji? Aside this, Biharidas was not the only follower of JDB, and according to Haridas dasji, the majority sides with the opinion that JDB received bhekh from Siddha Krishnadas of Govardhan. No, please don't twist my words. You know just as well as I that Haridas Dasji was a very dedicated Vaishnava. What I'm saying is that he wrote GVA in the capacity of a scholar and historian, not as some sort of infallible visionary. By the way, have you ever read his biography?

No, I'm just asking you if any other Gaudiya branch outside Gaudiya Math have chosen to follow a siksa-parampara, whether unbroken or zig-zag. If you intend to hold up the premise that Bhaktisiddhanta didn't introduce something new that wasn't there in the post-Mahaprabhu era before him, you should put up with the claim.

Well, the guru-paramparas of the present day bear testimony to my claim. Go around, and ask for anyone in any branch of the tradition to reveal their guru-parampara. If they choose to disclose it, you'll find it is a diksa-line. Can you present any other Gaudiya branch who would present a siksa-parampara as their disciplic succession from the days of Mahaprabhu to their present guru? I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I've never heard of one, while I've heard of dozens of diksa-paramparas from various branches of our tradition in Vraja, Bengal and Orissa.

I know this is the position of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his followers. However, I thought we were discussing the conceptions of the Gosvamis here. Let's consider this statement, for example (Bhakti Sandarbha, Anuccheda 312): <font color=darkblue>sAkSAd vraja-jana-vizeSAyaiva mahyaM zrI-guru-caraNair mad-abhISTa-vizeSa-siddhy-artham upadiSTaM bhAvayAmi | "I meditate on the specific form of one of Krsna?s associates in Vraja, which my Sri Guru-carana has instructed me in, so that I can attain my specifically desired siddhi."</font> There is definitely no restriction for hearing about one's own siddha-rupa and that of his gurus prior to attaining complete realization. Also, you'll find in Bhaktivinod's theory of Panca-dasam that sravana-dasa, which includes hearing of one's own siddha-svarupa, is the first step in raganuga-bhajana, followed by varana-dasa, acceptance, and then smarana-dasa, the five stages of remembrance and meditation, finally to reach apana-dasa, corresponding to svarupa-siddhi, and sampatti-dasa, or vastu-siddhi. Let's call it an open question. This thread is already cluttered enough without yet another branch! Yes, I am aware of Sridhar Maharaja's stand on this. However, as I said, I was under the impression that the discussion was about the teachings of the Gosvamis here. As I've demonstrated, the tika-karas on Bhaktirasamritasindhu declare in one voice that a raganuga-sadhaka should meditate on an internally / mentally thought siddha-form which is fit for the service he desires to attain, in other words, which is not yet attained. I don't think Madhusudan Das Babaji was of prominent influence in Jagannath Das Babaji's life, at least based on my readings. In fact, there is even controversy over whether it was Madhusudan Das Babaji of Suryakund or Krishna das Babaji of Govardhan who was his vesa-guru. According to Haridas das, the majority holds the latter opinion, though Biharidas Baba sides with the version involving Madhusudan Das Babaji.

Let's just put it this way: one cannot go to the guru and demand a certain kind of guidance. The guru is the doctor, and the disciple is the patient; whatever medicine the guru describes, that the disciple is to take. This is exactly what Jayakrishnadas Baba did: he diagnosed the disciple and gave him what was best for him. And just see, did it not turn out quite all right? Had Siddha Baba not instructed him, what would have taken place? No-one can say. I find it hard to imagine how you can propose that Siddha Baba did not assist Madhusudan Das Baba. I suggest you read the story again with a more generous mind. Reading the biographies of saints with a desire to find fault is not exactly the best way to go.

Well, if they approached Jayakrishna das Babaji for guidance in the basics of raganuga-sadhana according to the known paddhatis, then I can quite well understand why Baba would refuse. Here's why (Dhyanancandra's paddhati): <font color=darkblue>tatrAdau maJjarI-rUpAn gurvAdIn tu svIyAn svIyAn praNAly-anusAreNa saMsmaret zrI-guru-parama-guru-krameNeti tataH zrI-rAdhikAM dhyAyet | tataH zrI-nandanandanam || 344 || "In this meditation, before anything else, the sadhaka should perform smarana of the manjari forms of his own guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika, and after that Sri Nandanandana."</font> Just how on earth are you supposed to teach this to someone who doesn't know his guru-pranali? This is what Dhyanacandra teaches, and this is what I was taught. The same method. If you look at the case of Jayakrishna and the young babaji, you'll see how deep Baba's concern was for the young baba, and how he wished him well, and how by the power of his great benevolent desire, Vrindadevi personally arranged for the guru-pranalika of the young baba. Had the idea of guru-pranalika been wrong, Vrindadevi could have just rebuked Jayakrishna for demanding something irrelevant. However, what did she do instead? In the case of Madhusudandas Babaji, I cannot see a problem either, judging by the end result. It is not at all uncommon for gurus to refuse teaching the confidential method of raganuga-bhajana to someone. All I can see in the dealings of Jayakrishnadas Baba is compassion and concern for Madhusudandas's spiritual welfare, and the way he saw the hand of Radha in the anomalous situation is remarkable. If you wish to take a more generous look at it, it is with the blessings of the Siddha-baba that Radharani came to bless the newcomer, Madhusudandas. Alas, if they do not teach it for someone, they are blamed for being miserly, and if they do teach it, they are blamed for teaching confidential topics for anyone and everyone. Blame it is, regardless of what they do.

Well, to begin with, what you find in Bhaktirasamritasindhu is hardly a detailed description of how to practice raganuga-sadhana. You'll find only 30 something verses in the second wave of the first division, verses which outline the theological basis of raganuga-bhakti. What you see in effect in the paddhatis of Gopal Guru and Dhyanacandra, which are practically the same as Jayakrishna Das Baba's method and the method widely spread among our tradition, is the detailed method of sadhana which is based on Rupa Gosvami's core instructions. Do you know the paddhatis of Gopal Guru and Dhyanacandra? Do you consider them authoritative acaryas? You may remember the 39th chapter of the Jaiva Dharma of your Bhaktivinod: <font color="darkblue">The divine couple's pastimes are seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Sri Visakhanandabhidha-stotra and other prayers. You should see the asta-kaliya pastimes in those poems. The proper method of worship (paddhati) is seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Sri Manah-siksah. By following that method of worship you will become rapt in meditation on the divine couple's pastimes. Ecstatic love (bhava) is seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Sva-niyama-dasaka. You should carefully observe the vows describe in that poem. Srila Rupa Gosvami described the rasas in his books. Lord Caitanya gave that task to him. However, Srila Rupa Gosvami did not describe how an aspiring devotee can enter into these rasas. That Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, following the teachings in Srila Svarupa Damodara's Kadaca, described. Lord Caitanya gave these specific tasks to these devotees, and they all followed His order. Vijaya-kumara: Please describe the tasks Lord Mahaprabhu ordered these devotees to perform. Gosvami: The Lord ordered Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami to describe the method of worship according to the rasas. Following that order, Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami wrote his Kadaca, which is divided into two parts, one part describing the internal path (antah-pantha) or worship according to the rasas, and the other part describing the external path (bahihi pantha) of worship according to the rasa. The internal path he placed around the neck of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, who described that path in his writings. The external path Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami gave to Srila Vakresvara Pandita. That teaching is the great treasure of this temple. </font> The method of Jayakrishnadas Babaji, later popularized by Siddha Krishnadas Babaji of Govardhan, is nondifferent in principle from what you find in the writings of Gopal Guru and Dhyanacandra. As I said (and as Bhaktivinod says in what I just cited), Bhaktirasamritasindhu does not deal with the specifics of entering the realm of raganuga-sadhana. As far as the idea of mentally envisioned siddha-forms are concerned, the tikakaras are quite unanimous in their analysis of the seva ... siddha-rUpena - verse: <font color=darkblue>Jiva and Visvanatha: siddha-rUpeNa - antaz-cintitAbhISTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena - "In siddha-rupa -- In an internally thought body suitable for the desired service." Mukunda: siddha-rUpeNa - manaz-cintita-svAbhISTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena - "In siddha-rupa -- In a mentally thought body suitable for one's own desired service."</font>

The following is written in my guru-pranalika in verse form before the more elaborate combined post-Caitanya guru- and siddha-pranali: This is from Prameya-ratnavali. The text continues in a similar way from outside PR, but I am not at liberty to post it here. To sum it up, as a devotee, I certainly accept this, while at the same time, as a student of history, I find it highly puzzling. In fact, I find the entire episode of Baladeva's going to Jaipur and so forth very puzzling, in many respects. Many events seem very contradictory. Say, for example, he went there to prove that we belong to a recognized sampradaya, one of the four, such as Madhva's, to which the Gaudiyas supposedly belong. Then the point was brought up that a sampradaya needs a Vedanta-bhasya to be recognized as a sampradaya. Then Baladeva wrote Govinda-bhasya, instead of presenting Madhva's own bhasya. This just isn't coherent at all. I think this point has been many times: The post-Caitanya paramparas are drawn according to diksa, they are diksa-paramparas, and this was the practice until Bhaktisiddhanta's innovation. I think you'll have to agree on this. Could you just give me an OK if you agree, so I know that this point has been duly considered and we have a common premise for further questions.

Dear friend, it is evident that you don't have what it takes to make a positive contribution for this discussion; all I see you doing is putting down and condemning Gaurasundar, and anyone else for that matter who disagrees with your status quo. If you had some educated insights into the history of our tradition, or some degree of information on the pre-Prabhupad writings of the sampradaya, perhaps you could contribute something worthwhile. Thanks for considering.

Trust me, I am quite familiar with the book. However, I have time and again observed how people are able to read a book and blur its message altogether with their own ideas, while neglecting muhc of what doesn't fit in their preconceived views. Therefore, if you have something in particular in mind, I suggest you refer me to certain passages of BBhag and ask me to compare them to certain passages in the text you quote. Though I enjoy researching very much, unfortunately I don't have the time to cross-reference essays to books paragraph by paragraph on a daily basis.