Ganeshprasad

Jai Ganesh RE (•••if i negate that the personality of god is supreme, if i say that the personality of god is maya.. i am offensive to that person, krishna, vishnu..) I do not think anyone is saying god is maya. Is Shankracharya offensive? Is Budhha offensive? Please give a simple answer yes or no, do not try to fudge the answer Re (Do Krishna say this) My question was in relation to BG 3.3, but this is your style you change the point of discussion. Re (•••krsna himself or in many incarnations kills with his hands and weapons who not accept him as the supreme, think also of narasimhadeva) god I know is very merciful, he never kills anyone, simply because someone does not accept his authority. In this case we should all have to be killed are we not the rebel souls that rejected his authority? Even if he kills there is no loss he liberates those souls he kills. Think of Narasimhdeva, yes why not the most merciful Jaya nara hari. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re ( ..offensive.. they negate the personality of god) Offensive to who? Do Krishna say this? Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.(9.15) Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (..it is easy to see also in this forum... for advaita brahman is the absolute and the forms of god are created by maya. In this way they cannot find what they negate) This is not the answer to my question, have look again, i am not questioning their goal in life, but in acheiveing that goal what is their behaviour? Re at the end of the tunnel, when we see the sunlight the sun will also be there (..krsna fulfills our desires, if we want the light of the sun without the sun he will give only the light, He grant us our freedom to search and find what we want. And logically, oneness is one.. not two or many (me, others and god) The ignorant, not the wise, consider Karma-Samnyasa and Karma-yoga as different from each other. The person who has truly mastered one, gets the benefits of both. (5.04) Re (where's the problem? if there's many paths there's also many goals) Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.(9.15) No problem, this is the Hindu way Whatever goal a Samnyasi reaches, a Karma-yogi also reaches the same goal. One who sees the path of renunciation and the path of work as the same, really sees. (5.05) haribol Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (.....this is not the behaviour of the advaitist, serenity, impartiality, the advaitist says that krsna is maya.) So what is the behaviour of the advaitist? let us not judge as to what they think. how do they behave? Re (and this is for all the bhagavad gita verses that you have brought from gita... they have nothing to do with advaitism and mayavadism) Does Lord Krishna speak of impersonal realization of brahman or not? Re (... if oneness is possible, if you search oneness and you find another subject, god, it is like to say that oneness is impossible) this precisely what Krishna says The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. (3.3) It is a matter of choice if one is searching for personal god or his/her impersonal brahman. we all get there eventualy. Just as we are stuck in this dark tunnel of material life, as we search for the light, at the end of the tunnel, when we see the sunlight the sun will also be there Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (... i do not agree.. if you want to see the brahman and not krishna, krishna does not appear.... i do not see any logic in krishna appearing if i want to negate his existence) Fine do not agree, but see what Shree Krishna says Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54) RE (if when brahman is searched also krsna appears, it would be like negating the existence of it) How did you work this out? Is brahman and bhagvan two different entity? If you see the sunrays does the sun disappear? RE (merging with the one is possible... and in the one (=only one being) there's no vision of something else.. neither god) Here is what Lord Shree Krishna says One attains peace in whose mind all desires enter without creating any disturbance, as river waters enter the full ocean without creating a disturbance. One who desires material objects is never peaceful. (2.70) One who abandons all desires and becomes free from longing and the feeling of 'I' and 'my' attains peace. (2.71) O Arjuna, this is the Braahmee or superconscious state. Attaining this (state), one is no longer deluded. Gaining this state, even at the end of one's life, a person attains oneness with the Supreme. (2.72) The person whose mind is always free from attachment, who has subdued the mind and senses, and who is free from desires, attains the supreme perfection of freedom from (the bondage of) Karma through renunciation. (18.49) Learn from Me briefly, O Arjuna, how one who has attained such perfection realizes Brahman, the supreme state of knowledge. (18.50) Endowed with purified intellect, subduing the mind with resolve, turning away from sound and other objects of the senses, giving up likes and dislikes; and (18.51) Living in solitude, eating lightly, controlling the thought, word, and deed; ever absorbed in yoga of meditation, and taking refuge in detachment; and (18.52) Relinquishing egotism, violence, pride, lust, anger, and desire for possession; free from the notion of "my", and peaceful; one becomes fit for attaining oneness with Brahman. (18.53) I am in no way recommending advaita, only that these goals are legitimate practices in the shastra The Blessed Lord said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who realize the Self. Some are inclined to understand Him by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others are inclined to know Him by devotional work. (3.3) And I have no qualification for either, until then I take refuge in chanting his names. Jai Shree Krishna Jai shiv Shanker

Jai Ganesh Re (..not if you ask specifically to see the house without the proprietor) yes if someone thought the proprietor and the house(brahman)is eternal the creator, either way you find out when you get to the house. Re This is again your opinion, not what Bhagvan Krishna said in Bg12.3/4 (..bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada will speak better than me:) I do not doubt that, at the same time he is not denying what Lord Krishna says, all being it is difficult. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh RE (...personal realization gives also the knowledge of brahman... but if you want to know brahman negating the person of krishna, krishna will not reveal to you. He's respectiful, he does not give what you do not desire) We have covered this ground many times. when you reach the house, you also get to see the owner of the house. search was to find the truth in pursuit of happiness, he is very kind. Re (...bhagavan is eternal, brahman is eternal.... for us souls realization of brahman separated by bhagavan is not eternal because we want activity, not simply the end of suffering) This is again your opinion, not what Bhagvan Krishna said in Bg12.3/4 But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03) Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--i do not separate, both are existing and eternal.. the only thing is that the person is the source of the impersonal and not the opposite) so if both is not separate, eternal and one, what make you think if you realize one you want know the other? Re (---the goals are very different, the impersonal realization is not eternal (in my opinion).) Check your opinion or should I say opinions, one you say both are eternal and then you say impersonal realization is not eternal. Re (Another problem is that a personalist developes love for god in his personal form, if an advaitism says that the person of god is ultimately unreal and that his reality and existence is annihilated in being one with a supreme energy, i would be hypochrite in not considering it a complete blasphemy. And probably the advaitist consider me a poor fellow who needs icons and puppets to approach some spirituality. So there's no serious possibility to consider the two positions at the same level.) Problems are in our minds only if we make it a problem then it becomes a problem but if we accept what Krishna says, and he says many things, every thing he says is eternal, therefor it does not bother me one way or the other. Re And that is why Lord Sri Krishna spoke of many paths to reach him, why you want to ignore this, only you and the lord knows. (--because considering all the gita and scriptures i see different levels of realizations and also realizations that are not eternal........ ) I also see different levels of realization accept I do not judge them. hare krishna Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Shree Krishna Maadhavji Re (if any reader can understand what i am saying, and have better way to explain the points i make to yd, please try. howeer, the mission of the hindus will not stop if yd cannot agree.) We Hindus do not have any difficulties understanding each other, you are doing quiet a good job explaining the points but if someone refuses even to acknowledge that Bhagvad Gita speaks of many paths then unfortunately we can not do any thing about it, even though we do not stop trying. Rainbow is beautiful, someone may prefer one or the other or all of the colors, Hindu Dharma is like that, stick with it. you are doing a good job. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--to be more clear.. for me sanatana dharma is personalism.. god is a person. As i have already said if the supreme personality is vishnu, krsna or siva is much less important) God is a person yes, but he/she also pervades the entire creation by the energy, how can you seprate the two?impersonal realization is also there, so what is true for you is also true for someone who wants to realize the other way Re (--any imposition is dangerous, also "all is the same" can be an imposition.) Soul is free to choose that is my point. All is searching for the same, is different, from “all is the same,” imposition is if I tell you to accept my way, and that is the only way but I am not saying that . Re ( "Only my idea is right" is simply honest, in our everyday life, buying food, driving the car, choosing dresses and so on, we decide between bad and good... so we can decide like this even in religion. If we keep the difference on the dialogue plane, there's no danger) Yes honest for oneself I agree, difference can be discussed, respected, tolerated in this way we can all progress forward. One who knows that the position reached by means of renunciation can also be attained by works in devotional service and who therefore sees that the path of works and the path of renunciation are one, sees things as they are.(5.05) Re (---bhagavad gita is all written to promote this idea... arjuna renunciates keeping his activity and devoting it to krsna, not leaving everything and going meditating in the forest) Yes this is why the Lord Shree Krishna spoke the Gita. Arjun wanted to renounce prematurely because he was overcame by grief; he was worried about sins of killing his guru and family members. If due to ego you think: I shall not fight; this resolve of yours is vain. Your own nature will compel you (to fight). (18.59) What you do not wish to do out of delusion; you shall do even that against your will, bound by your own nature-born Karma, O Arjuna. (18.60) Abandon all varieties of dharma (duty) and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.(18.66) And I agree with above, and also we are all bound by our karma, we have different propensities therefore we surrender onto the lord in different ways. And that is why Lord Sri Krishna spoke of many paths to reach him, why you want to ignore this, only you and the lord knows. And finally all the pandavas renounced the kingdom and proceeded to go to Himalayas. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--discriminating between what i believe and what i think to have realized it is better to say that form me the eternal dharma is theism....) Theism is to believe in God, the title of the thread speaks for itself. Re ( for the other fact i do not feel that the danger is to have different ideas, i simply believe that everything has to be on the dialogue plane.. and in dialogue there's no harm. To think that sanatana dharma is theism, is an idea.. to think that sanatana dharma is many other things is another idea.. why an idea is more dangerous ?) An idea by itself is no danger, mine is the only idea that is right, can be dangerous. ( --because i think that the answers i have avoided to give are simply repetitions of what i have said many times... the essential fact is that i find bhakti and inpersonal realization as opposite and i do not know, how they cannot bring to the same goal if not considering the one as some sort of preparation for the other ) One who knows that the position reached by means of renunciation can also be attained by works in devotional service and who therefore sees that the path of works and the path of renunciation are one, sees things as they are.(5.05) I note you have not denied you identity Jai Shree Krishna Jai Narsimhadev

Jai Ganesh Re (or is it the BODY?) Ask a street cleaner (No offence ment) in India and you will get your answer. Re (The purport of the Vedas Aham brahmasmi--"I am Brahman" ) If any Hindu disagree let me know. Rest of your post is your view on Hindu, as a material body, i will pass this one Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Narashima Jayanthi Maadhavji prabhu I have followed your post with interest over a period of time, you are resolute in your unity of hindus which I admire a lot, I must say against a stern opposition from hk you have been undaunted in your belief, and you still ask for their support, I wish you well, my concern is not if they call them hindus or not, for me it is enough if anyone follows the dharma. If we protect the dharma, dharma will protect us. Mukh me ram or bagal me churi we should guard against. Westerner bring with them their own culture, which by it self is not a bad thing because we can all learn from each other about the good things in life but it should not be at the expense of our values which we hold so dear. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Atanuji prabhu thank you for your kind words I know I could be wasting my time but that is no reason to stop, if we believe in something then we should never give up even if sometimes it may seem impossible. This guest who I suspect is non other then yasodanandana if not my apologies to him. His objection to advaita I can understand, for him sanatan dharma is Vaishnava, and nothing else, to me that is dangerous, even if I am a Krishna Bhakta, not that I am saying to be Vaishnava is dangerous. Koti koti vaishnavavrind ki Jai. Daksa found this out paying a high cost, Maa Sati unable to bare the insult on Lord Shiva gave up the body that associated with daksa took her birth as Parvati. Gustji having decided Hindu is a misnomer going on opposite direction thus he reject all arguments even if lord Krishna says so, otherwise his stand on Hindu falls apart. So when you say sabKa malik ek, all Hindus easily relate to this even if when we have different concept about the same supreme lord especially when we follow the same way of life laid down by our ancestors following the same scriptures. Reading his latest post I see he has answered only a part and ignored the rest he has a selective reading and that is his style, this way we will go round in circle, churning our mind, may be something good will come out of this. Atanuji keep at it even if I agree or not your posts are very good, I look forward to read them, sabKa malik ek I am happy in this knowledge. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--i do not understand, love is between two subjects.. in the research of oneness i see only (perverted) love for our own ego) Yes the love is between two things, to seek the truth is their expression of love to know the all pervading expect of the lord is their worship. If they love the ego so much what is the logic in loosing it? Ego has to be negated to achieve the oneness the oneness in to the supreme ego. like a drop merging in to the ocean the tiny ego in to supreme, and idea here I believe is to be happy having realized the futility of seprate existence from the whole. Re (---using logic i cannot find any concept of love in annihilating everything and becaming one, only ME) No annihilation everything is still there, just want to be part of the whole again. Re ( ---stop suffering and/or exalt the ego) yes no one want suffering, having realized the soul is eternal,needs to get out of repeated birth and death this condition is unacceptable to the soul, it would be foolish for a drop of water to think I am the ocean, it would be equally naive to think that the drop is thinking along that line, when all it wants to do is become part of that One from which some how or other it got separated. ((or else why would their be such a concept also mentioned by Krishna.)) Re (---because it is a possible goal even not the best and not eternal.... nirguna brahman exists, it is not maya, the fact is that we cannot stay there eternally) I am sorry you are giving your opinion see what Krishna is saying? But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03) Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) Re (---there's no meeting... meeting is two subjects, krsna does not cheat, if you ask oneness he gives oneness. It is not that you search for oneness and you find krsna, or jesus or siva Ok I accept that desiring oneness in pursuit of happiness than the lord is kind he grants that. So he grants oneness minus the happiness? Re ( --the problem is that oneness is not a condition where we can have freedom, because freedom is a quality, a power. There's nothing to choose, because the only subject is ONE without objects, there's no searching because searching is a an action, and there's no goals and destinations because it would break the oneness) so the drop has merged with the ocean has become part of the whole, eternal, no dukh no sukh but peaceful Re (the only system to break the oneness would be that a certain point krsna, vishu, siva etc. manifestate themselves to the one who has merged in oneness. But it would be not honest, he wanted nirguna brahman, not saguna brahman... so god does not cheat, when the "satisfaction" given by the stop of suffering is exausted, the individual comes back in a plane of existence that he has already achieved.. the matter) Now why would the lord manifest to break the union? even accepting that they do why would they send the soul back to existence, the soul had rejected, the matter, he/she is now in spirit, one thing I know is that the lord is not cruel. Son of Prtha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil. Re (---there's many terms to interprete here, and in my opinion none of them is to apply to advaita realization... transcendentalist, auspicious activities, doing good... and one who wants to merge is searching specifically the destruction of his individuality, and , of course, he does not want to go in the spiritual world. A world is made by subjects, objects and activities... oneness is not a world to live in.. oneness is oneness) Ye right let us exclude the advaita Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) Let us reject what Krishna is saying above. Let us reject ShankrAcharya what did you say the lord does not cheat? Yes i agree he does not cheat Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (---devotion is love.. if i want to love you it is necessary that both us remain distinct individuals. if i want to merge, i want that me and you disappear.. and if i want you disappear it is not love, bhakti, devotion. Dedication to the practice, to the goal is necessary, but there's not a subject to reach, to love, to be devote of) Yes but this is how they express their love, in the practice of becoming one with Brahman Re (--happiness is given by relationships, by exchanges.. if merging in the whole you lose every relationship, bliss and consciousness are not possible in that condition) This is your concept, of their goal, but they have their reason or else why would their be such a concept also mentioned by Krishna. Re (--advaita says, with a partial mistake, that the drop and ocean is the same thing. I accept your definition, all efforts on merging resolve in merging in a drop. Autentic and true realization, but it is too little for us, too limited, so we do not get eternal relief from it) if you cant get relief from meeting with the lord where can you? Even if I made a mistake in recognizing him or his energy? Re (--no cit in ONE, because consciousness means three things, the one who knows, the act of knowing and the things that are known.... and why we fall? because we have no ananda in oneness, no bliss.. There's the end of suffering, but no bliss.. bliss comes from relationships, variety. So we come back in the material world to restart another spiritual path) I think I will agree to disagree on this one, I can only see a way forward. You are free to choose and search from where you left off The Blessed Lord said: Son of Prtha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil. Re (--krsna gives you exactly what you want, if you want to fall he gives you maya, if you want krsna he gives krsna, if you want devatas he gives you devatas, if you want oneness with the nirguna brahman he gives oneness... some of these goals are achieved when we have gone beyond the three gunas. My point is that giving up the three gunas does not coincide with devotion. Of course devotion gives, as collateral effect, to go beyond the gunas.. but not the opposite) May be not at first but as you say if it is not possible to stay in one, then in reality oneness never was achieved, in this case you still have the knowledge of the self the original search was to find the creator and the concept for that rightly or wrongly was the merging, it is only natural from here on for the soul to look beyond the Brahman realization. Re ( no, brahman realization is real in the sense that it can be achieved even if with great difficulty.. but it is unreal in the sense that it cannot be sustained eternally) So it is only natural look beyond that. Re ( --it is used also in the sense that we are doing anything actively negative and nothing actively positive... but there's no problem, tecnicalities are not important, my point is on neutrality, and for us neutrality is not enough, there's no happiness in it) If you are contented fine otherwise you look beyond. jaya sri krsna, om namah sivaya Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (...there's no devotion in merging...) How does one want something and achieve it without devotion? Re (if i love you and i merge in you, you disappear and only ME remains, lonely... so how can i be a lover , a devotee if the object of my devotion and love is no more here?) No it is not like that, this soul is thinking I came apart from this whole and my happiness lies in getting back with the whole. Like the water merging with the ocean and becoming one with the whole, it is not like the ocean has merged with the drop and became a drop. Re (.... the fact is that even if remotely, nirguna brahman realization, oneness, is possible to be achieved, When i am ONE there's no possibility to have other choices, ONE means no choices, no other subjects to be devote, no one to love, no goals, no actions, no desires.. so when merged in the one, i cannot desire to be in another place. Me, the desire, the other place is three, not one. So not having the possibility to desire a higher plane of existence there's automatical falling when we are no more satisfied by the simple stopping of suffering) Answer this, if you became one, no desires, no karma, the soul is realized it is eternal, transcended the material realm, you have become one with the whole, no one can come here without knowledge, so you are sat and chit, why would you then choose to go back to place of temporary miserable condition? On what grounds would one go back? Bg.14.18 Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds. This apply to gunas in this world, now think, this soul has gone beyond the three gunas, what is the destination? A person whose mind is unattached to sensual pleasures, who discovers the joy of the Self, and whose mind is in union with Brahman through meditation, enjoys eternal bliss. (5.21) Re (...seen the gita as a whole.. this brahman is param brahman.. and meditation (man mana mad bhava bhakto) means three things: the subject, the object and the action of meditating) So you are saying there is no Brahman realization? Why did he say Brahman, if he meant para Brahman, why did he not say ME? Re (If it is not sukhi then what, Santi? ...yes... neutrality... but we are active and for us neutrality, inactivity is a condition limited in time, not eternal) if you have entered the eternal Brahman how is this state temporary? Santi means peaceful not neutral. There is neither Self-knowledge nor Self-perception to those whose senses are not under control. Without Self-perception there is no peace; and without peace there can be no happiness. (2.66) Re (...right... happines has peace inside and brahman is inside the personality of godhead... but not the opposite) Now where did I say the opposite? Re (...yes, having the knowledge of god given by bhakti it is automatically given the knowledge of his omnipervasive aspect, When krsna eats the dust and yasodamata looks in his mouth to clean it, she sees the whole creation inside, She has not made separated efforts to realize brahman, she's devotee of the personality of godhead and automatically she has also the knowledge of Brahman) So those who want to do it the hard way let them, even Krishna says this is hard, but he does not deny this fact Bg. 12 3-4. Yasodamata ki Jai hare krishna.. om namah sivaya Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--the problem is that in advaita there's no devotion, because devotion means at least two subjects: the devotee and the object of devotion) How does that answer my question? We all know what devotion is, and an advaita express theirs in merging with Brahman, if they were to discover that there is more to it , what would they do? Go back to temporary material world or explore further in their pursuit of happiness? A person whose mind is unattached to sensual pleasures, who discovers the joy of the Self, and whose mind is in union with Brahman through meditation, enjoys eternal bliss. (5.21) Re (--and this bliss is to have found krsna.. and not by the research of oneness, but through devotion... meditation is thinking of something or someone.. two subjects) lord Shree Krishna is saying a self realized soul whose mind is fixed in Brahman, had he said mind fixed in “ Me “than that is the highest realization, but he is saying in Brahman, two different subject, one and different. Re If you are not dukhi you are sukhi (--not necessarily) If it is not sukhi then what, Santi? There is neither Self-knowledge nor Self-perception to those whose senses are not under control. Without Self-perception there is no peace; and without peace there can be no happiness. (2.66) Re (--brahman is in itself only SAT.. eternal...bliss is given by relationships and to have consciousness, knowledge, you must have several subjects and objects, or there's nothing to know) Self can not reach eternal brahman without knowledge. ((End of suffering and eternal hell is contradictory.)) Re (--because it is impossible to stay eternally in impersonal realization... we do care more for joy, happiness than for stopping suffering. Or better it is more easy and natural to search bliss, when we have found bliss, the end of suffering is automatic) you are in a better position from here to get that happiness, the bliss that you can not realize in material world. Re (--the problems is that there's nothing to explore.... me, the exploration and the land to explore are three things. In nirguna brahman realization there's only one thing .... ME) Yes this is true but I am answering your question if and when that me is active then the exploration will come. Re (--actions is there also in the absolute, not karma but lila ) So no reaction only bliss hare krishna.. om namah sivaya!! Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re. (that's the results of advaitism) SankraAcharya gave us back the Vedas be grateful Re (and mainstream hinduism:) Go to villages where most of the population lives, still going to temples, chanting the lords names, most of them do not know the meaning of advait or dawait or they do not care. Re (A T H E I S M ) PRODUCT OF MODERN SCIENCE Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh (--ok. ok. maybe i was explaining myself not so well... happiness is there, necessary and constitutional for the living being.. my point was that in advaita realization there's not happines.. end of suffering but not happiness) And my point was because of our search for happiness if there is no bliss in advaita then the soul will progress forward and not back to temporary place of misery. Re (--yes.. the brahman is no suffering.. we agree on this, but no happiness, because happiness is generated by activity, variety, plurality, relationship, desire and fulfilling of desire) A person whose mind is unattached to sensual pleasures, who discovers the joy of the Self, and whose mind is in union with Brahman through meditation, enjoys eternal bliss. (5.21) (so three states... suffering.. end of suffering (like when we sleep for example).. and happiness. In impersonal realization we have end of suffering, not bliss. The demosntration is that in buddhism we have the word nir-vana, no suffering, and that you have defined that state as "no dukh") If you are not dukhi you are sukhi, Brahman is sat chit and anand why do you say there is no bliss here? Re if we go to an hospital, they solve all our health problems they make us stop to suffer.. not happy similarly if you have rejected the temporary condition of material life and achieved good health (Brahman) you now have opportunity to be happy. Re (--yes, it is possible to exchange happines for the end of suffering.. and there's no stop in searching.. nirguna brahman realization could turn in some sort of eternal hell if it would be possible to remain there eternally.) End of suffering and eternal hell is contradictory. Re (We are active, we want bliss, happiness, joy.. we are not happy simply with a painless sleeping. So we come back in the material world to search other ways) I accept the active part and all of that But no one will put the hands in fire knowing what it does. Your logic of coming back does not hold. Having got rid of material desires to reach the Brahman realization in search for happiness and if that does not fulfill the souls quest, it is only natural to go forward and seek beyond. Re (--you woud like... but imagine after a great sickness to remain in the hospitals bed even when you will be perfectly healhty. How many hours you will consider it happiness? how many days you resist to ged out even to the winter's cold, even at risk to get pneumonia? we cannot stop to be active) So you make all that effort to swim the sansar sagar and reach the shore, no more temporary misery of material life (healthy), would you than jump back in the ocean, having got bored on the shore or would you go explore the dry land? jaya ... haribol Jai Shree Krishna Jai Shiv Shanker

Jai Ganesh Re (--there's something who is not exact in your question... the happiness..) Every endeavour of any soul is in persuit of happiness this is what drive us all. One who neither rejoices on obtaining what is pleasant nor grieves on obtaining the unpleasant, who is undeluded, who has a steady mind, and who is a knower of Brahman; such a person abides in Brahman. (5.20) A person whose mind is unattached to sensual pleasures, who discovers the joy of the Self, and whose mind is in union with Brahman through meditation, enjoys eternal bliss. (5.21) Supreme bliss comes to a Self-realized yogi whose mind is tranquil, whose desires are under control, and who is free from sin (or faults). (6.27) Such a sinless yogi, who constantly engages the mind with the Self, easily enjoys the infinite bliss of contact with Brahman. (6.28) Re (when you ipothetically became one with the whole you are lonely, one means lonely, there's no one to relationate, no relationship, no desire and no desire to be fulfilled. So there's no more karma, no more pain, but neither happiness.) opposite of happiness is dukh, braman realization can not be this Re (For one who has suffered a long time for a disease, to gain the health with a cure in the hospital and so on will give surely a great relief .. but this relief is momentary, not definitive, because being us active we are not satisfied simply by leaving the unhappiness,) Leaving the unhappiness in it self sugest one is looking for hapiness, one will not stop until that stage is reached. Re ( we want to be happy, to enjoy, and happiness and enjoyements are given by relationships, variety, action, movement) Yes, everyone is searching for this Re (in oneness there's not life, no action, no relationship, no happiness... so we come back) all i know is if you stop commiting crime no one send you back to jail in this world, i would like to think the lord is always just therefor the way is forward and not back to jail. jaya sri krsna, jaya sri siva... this exchange is soo nice... many thanks i like it also Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Such behaviour is not conducive to spritual advancement. No guru has tought us like this sorry to have butt in. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--because we are persons and we originally have a life full of relationships (=rasas) in the spiritual world. When we come in this world the situation is reproduced perverted by maya. So, if we ipotetically choose a path of realization where we repress and apparently lose our personality, our capacity to act and to have relations with others, we get bored and we come back) This still does not answer the question, First this soul is self realised, two has no karma, our search in life is always to be happy, having experinced dukh why would you choose to go back? i can only see the way forward and that would be to see the personality behind this brahman realization. Re (Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) -- yes ME... krishna..) Yes but this was said in relation to a person trying for brahman realization, see the sloka 12.03. Re (So Lord Krishna is clearly saying it is possible, my is not to argue if this is correct path to choose --no problem if krsna says that it is possible.. it is possible... and it is correct....) So why argue with someone who chose this path. The Blessed Lord said: Son of Prtha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil. Re ( but seeing bhagavad gita as a whole everything goes towards surrendering to krsna as a person.. so it is more easy and gives eternal and blissful results) Yes I agree Re (--the lesson of the gita is clear.... we have not to make separated efforts to change ourselves, we have to surrender to krishna and he, who is rshikesh, the controller of our senses and mind, changes us and make us fit to rediscover our eternal loving relationship with him) Yes we have to have faith and desire in this derection. jaya sri krsna... hari bol!!

Jai Ganesh Re (--because the living being is active, he wants to have relationships having seen the futility of material existent why would any one want to come back? Re ( -- almost impossible for us, it is almost impossible to control our mind) The Supreme Lord said: Undoubtedly, O Arjuna, the mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by Abhyaasa (or constant vigorous spiritual practice with perseverance), and Vairaagya (or detachment), O Arjuna. (6.35) Re (--yes that's the key, krsna act as a master, he do not gives dogmas.... "there's a teorical possibility to do it... but do not do it....... ) But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03) Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) So Lord Krishna is clearly saying it is possible, my is not to argue if this is correct path to choose, nor am I here to judge people who choose this path. Having attained this realization even in theory, why would they fall from it, one has to reach this position getting rid of desires and karma? Re ( it is much more safe to let god control our mind and exaust our karma asking his protection... like the verse "sarva dharma..." of the gita.. "surrender .. i will protect you from karma reactions". In this way we let him do the job. But if we think that god's supremacy is illusory, that we have nothing to ask because we are god, if our effort is to to increase our forgetfullness of our original position of god's servants and lovers.... this is actually a suicide) Suicide is heavy word to use, but yes it is more easy and desirable also for me, to take his/her shelter Any path we choose is not a bed of roses I would like to think, damn this ego so hard to give up. Jai Shree Krishna.

Jai Ganesh Re (--because it is important to state that "krsna is everything" is very different from "everything is krsna") If x =y it is not unreasonable to think y=x, but I agree we are talking of these personalities who eternally exist therefore Siva is always Uma pati Ram is always Sita pati, there can not be any confusion here. Re ( --origin as emanating source, i am eternal as god, but he is at the origin, he's the source of my eternity.. not the opposite) We are not discussing jivas position in relation to god. In any case have a look at the word eternal, means without beginning or end. What do you mean by origin? Re (Devotee of Lord Shiva will also see in the same light as you have said. --yes, this is really something that i do not feel useful to discuss, i do not agree with sivaists that siva is supreme, but i think that if one wants siva he goes to siva and it is an authentic eternal spiritual goal, so i am satisfied) I think it is very important to discuss, but since you agree and I too that a devotee of lord Shiva will go to lord Shiva and it is an authentic eternal spiritual goal I am happy in that knowledge also. Re (.. and it is different from brahman realization, from brahman we come back in the material world to suffer again) Of cource Brahman realization is different and I am not advocating it either, but it is there in shastra. Why would they come back from it is a big question. How is it possible to achieve this state? Having given up all the desires and exhausting all the karma. Why would they come back to suffer? One who knows that the position reached by means of renunciation can also be attained by works in devotional service and who therefore sees that the path of works and the path of renunciation are one, sees things as they are.(5.05) But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03) Restraining all the senses, even minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.04) Self-realization is more difficult for those who fix their mind on the formless Brahman, because the comprehension of the unmanifest Brahman by the average embodied human being is very difficult. (12.05) One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24) The person whose mind is always free from attachment, who has subdued the mind and senses, and who is free from desires, attains the supreme perfection of freedom from (the bondage of) Karma through renunciation. (18.49) Learn from Me briefly, O Arjuna, how one who has attained such perfection realizes Brahman, the supreme state of knowledge. (18.50) Endowed with purified intellect, subduing the mind with resolve, turning away from sound and other objects of the senses, giving up likes and dislikes; and (18.51) Living in solitude, eating lightly, controlling the thought, word, and deed; ever absorbed in yoga of meditation, and taking refuge in detachment; and (18.52) Relinquishing egotism, violence, pride, lust, anger, and desire for possession; free from the notion of "my", and peaceful; one becomes fit for attaining oneness with Brahman. (18.53) Re (--i am not responsable of the deviations of someone else.. even if i am sorry) Groups many groups, or no group, we are responsible for our on action and no one else, therefore no need to be sorry, I have no reason to blame you. Jai Shree Krishna