Ganeshprasad

Jai Ganesh Re (Jai Shree Krishna all the verses you have brought have a personalist meaning:) My Point of discussion was not based on personal or impersonal aspect of the lord I am not averse to aspirants goal of life be it personal or impersonal. (.. so there's no difficulty, for param atma, to manifest himself as narasimhadeva and get out from a coloumn... this does not mean that narasimha is coming from impersonal brahman) I was talking about Prahlads faith to demonstrate the subsequent statement. why is so necessary to reject or read something different, when lord Krishna says I am Shankar. Re (...it is only necessary to be precise and say that if krsna is the origin and source of shankara, not necessarily the opposite is also right) Both the form, part of the same coin exists eternally where is the question of origin? Devotee of Lord Shiva will also see in the same light as you have said. Re (..in indian tradition there's not a word to be translated with faith in christian sense, or faith opposed to logic and rationality.... in sanskrit we have shraddha.. shraddha is "faith+logic, sentiment+rationality"... to develope only faith is fanaticism, to develope only rationality is not sufficient because we need to love to go on) Have a look at what I also mentioned Vishwas(Spelling) Re (..a vaishnava prays siva as a great vaishnava.. and the lord is more happy to hear that the vaishnavas are praised than that he is praised. As the opposite he forgive when he is blasphemed but not when a devotee is blasphemed. ) Tulsidas saw them as same, I do not have quote on hand, but he said something like neither lord is pleased if either one is offended. I do not see, in some quarters, no worship of lord Shiva even though they pay a lip service saying he is the highest Vaishnava, In fact I have seen the opposite, on his maha sivratri, instead of glorifying him, they put on plays showing him to be running away from the demon, a fine way of glorifying him. jay sri krsna bhagavan

Jai Ganesh Re (you are introducing a plural sense that it were not in the question please bring the verse and we will see ) Bg How should I meditate on You? In what various forms are You to be contemplated, O Blessed Lord?10.17 The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19) The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, behold My hundreds and thousands of multifarious divine forms of different colors and shapes. (11.05) Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form.9.15 When Prahlad had faith that Lord Hari was in the pillar, and if he can manifest from it, why is so necessary to reject or read something different, when lord Krishna says I am Shankar. Vyasji wrote this also in many purans, as well as Bhagvat puran says so in places. At the end of the day it is a matter of faith without which no amount of grammar or knowledge will help me. Shankar Bhagvan and Mata Parvati are embodiment of sradha and vishwas. Goswami Tulsidas a great devotee of lord Ram, had all the praise for lord Shiva, this did not take his devotion away from Lord Ram Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--for me there's no problem... i do not say to be hindu, many says that i am not hindu, my opinion is that hindu means simply indian, and it is limiting for any spiritual path mainly practiced in this country and an obstacle for any not indian newcomer) I do not understand you I answer to your objection, then you change the point, now you are saying indians are obstacle to newcomers,why are we so bad? Re (--the average hinduism is some light advaitism) Not that i agree with you on your speculation, still that is no reason to assume my position. Re (--i agree completely, and i do not have any need to be grouped with people with opposite beliefs to live peacefully.. let us remain honestly different and friends) I have no problem with that Re (--i do not believe, i am sure... but what makes a real group is the meaning beyond the act of bathing, who is sri ganga and what mercy she gives to us) So if you are so sure, do not doubt, she will give same mercy to you and me regardless of what we know. Bhagirath maharaj brought the Ganga down so she can purify sagar putras,who were not even alive, what did they know? haribol Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (You are agreeing to lack of knowledge. Then what is the point in arguing with me. First you need to learn. I am not attacking you, but it is pointless on your part to prove your point when you do not know what Vedas say.) I see absolutely no point in arguing with you, cause, you see, anyone who do not know Vedas, are ignorant not worthy to make a point with you. Not knowing Vedas does not mean lack of knowledge (in my case it is different but that is beside the point) Re (This is ridiculous question. Veda Vyasa(Krishna Dwaipanya) is Lord Visnu's avatar.) Ha, ridiculous and that is what I say too, only I find, many here, tell me to reject , never mind the so called tamsic puran, but anything even in Bhagvat puran, that is against Vedas. I was going to answer rest of your points , but I think I will be wasting my time with you, if not the Lord who else can be the support of everything? I do not need to read Gita on your account. Jai Shree Krishna.

Jai Ganesh Re (I guess you do not understand what Sruti is ? Sruti refers to Veda Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishads. There is no contradiction in Sritis. I think I am discussing with somebody who does not know even what Sruti is.) By attacking my inadequacy on vedas you are doing a fine jog of presenting your own intelegence, read my post you will see i clearly mention i am not well versed in vedas. Are you able to answer did Sri Vyasdev not know sruti? Re (Lord Krishna also says there that one who worships Devas go to Devas, one who worships ghosts go to them, etc. and that one who worships HIM, attains HIM. Read fully before making any conclusions. You need to gain knowledge before you argue here. First know what Sruti refers to. ) I leave the sruti to you, but i do not need your permision to discuss. i have no doubt when Krishna says those who worship Devas go to them, it would be foolish to think otherwise. Point was; Arjun is quite clearly asking Lord Krishna, in what various forms are you to be remembered? And Sri Bhagvan is responding to this question. thats all realy. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re --do not make confusion.. many do not agree that hindu is the original eternal sanatana dharma. Your are also not giving any valid definition of hinduism, so with no definition what is the thing who has stood the test of time? nothing) Good it is nice to know you like Hindus. Re (--yes, there's an opinion difference between you and vaishnavas and gaudya vaishnavas.. what you judge enough to give a common ground to be united in a denomination it is judged not sufficient by us.. so all is falling apart and let us stay peacefully different) Do not worry about staying peacefully different it is well engraved in Hindu mind set except you have not been listening. Re (--it is so estabilished that in every hindu forum or vaishnava forum this subject arises and the average conclusion is that vaishnavas or gaudya vaishnavas are not considered hindu) And whose fault is it? you have said yourself "my acharya has said we are not Hindu" you cant have your cake and eat it. Re (No when we meet our maker all the doubts diappears. --so let's wait to meet krsna.... until this moment i am not hindu) Fine Re (--everything external , marginal... you cannot unite under a spiritual denomination people who (perhaps) have similar concept on marginal things and opposite opinion of god..) As i keep saying marginal, basic are important without which all structure falls apart opinions are opinion we will find out. Re (you believe that brahman is the ultimate reality, that god's forms are material manifestations of brahman, that vishnu and krsna body is human, that our goal is to merge and lose individuality) You are so expert that you know what i beleive. Re (my beliefs are that brahman is teh effulgence of god's body and that realization of brahman is not the definitive solution, that god's body is transcendental and it is the ultimate reality, that our goal is to be different persons from god and to unite with him in a relationships of love. My problem is in not what you beleive, but what you judge of others, everyone has a right to aproach god as they have learnt.I have not discussed any concept with you and yet you have made your mind up. Re ( We are different and i am not hindu at all.. who cares if me and you can wear a dhoti and make some bath in the ganga?) Now you would not say about maa Ganga like this, after all you say Ganga maa ki Jai everyday, do you not beleive in her mercy? hari bol. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Shree Krishna Hare Krishna, Re (I have quoted verses from Sruti that clearly show Lord Rudra is subordinate to Lord Visnu, Mahalakshmi and even Lord Vayu. If you cannot accept it then you are rejecting Vedas.) to accept anything you have to have faith, it is also very easy to pull few quotes contradictions are there. my question was since Sri Vyasdev wrote the vedas and puranas, did he not know Sruti? Re (Bhagavad Gita is explained as per the Srutis by Vaishnavas. When Lord Krishna says "I am Sankara, etc" He means that HE is the antaryami of all these demi-Gods. ) It is quite clear what Lord Krishna is saying if you are questioning that, then there is something fundamentaly wrong. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--so why all this effort for hindu idea?) Because it has stood the test of time Re (--sanatana dharma is an idea.. idea means at least a little explanation... if you haven't and if you cannot explain why sanatana dharma is identical to hindu dharma on wich basis you are sustaining it? on imagination? on like and dislike?) Many examples have been given, you either ignore tham or call them basic and i keep saying without the basic foundation the whole structure fall apart. Re (--so why all this effort to unite?) number game was your question therefor your question is out of context. Re (--if you do not like my organization why you want union?) I never said i do not like your organization, concept of Vaisnava is well established in Hindu dharma.we may differ in practice, that is well known. Re (--so why this conversion of all different indian religions in hinduism?) No coversion different concept of the same lord exists, i am just confirming that. Re (--so give a definition) What defination of various groups? it will take me a life time. Re (--so make a group of all the world, because everyone is travelling and everyone has different taste... i agree completely, dharma is property of everyone) Dharma is for everyone, here we have complete agreement, choice is for people to become fellow travellors. Re (--hinduism or not hinduism is a tecnical definition, if you have a different conception on what's the path or on who's and what's the lord we have in common only that we are human) And that is sometimes people forget, something very basic fact that we are all children of god. Re (You may argue our concept of the lord is different; my answer is we will find out when we reach the summit. --so let us make unions on what we are at the moment, if you say that we both will change idea when we will be realized, maybe i will be in favor of hinduism and you will be against... who knows?) No when we meet our maker all the doubts disappears. Re (--of what "there" you are speaking? if it is the same "there" we belong to the same group) Of the same Lord the wise know him/her by many names. Re (--as i have said the words "religions", "way of life", "dharma", "path" etc. in some sense are synonims... so it is not important to define what's hinduism and what's vaishnavism.. give them the names you like but if you say that they coincide tell the common features... this is my original point) It is imposible for me to quntify all this it will depand if we are talking of everyday mundane activity, from duty of parents, duty of a child duty of a teacher, how to behave in society, how to respect life in general,dharma arath kama moksa. it is not as if i now know the goal of my life therefor i jump at the deepend forgeting i did not learn how to swim. An enlightened person looks at a learned and humble Braahmana, an outcast, even a cow, an elephant, or a dog with an equal eye. (5.18) How can they belong to any one group? Re (--so why create a hindu group?) It is here, not creating Re --and you do not need to defend hinduism by me.. i like india and hindus, i want only to say (agreeing with my acharyas) that vaishnavism is not hinduism, that's all You have a fine way of showing it. Your nishtha with your guru is commandable Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Vyasdev Jai Maa Sarasvati Re (Lord Shiva is the Lord of Tamas. No doubt in it. It is HE(Lord Shiva) who releases a soul from avidya. Again no doubt. Lord Shiva afflicts Jivas with avidya and the only way to escape this is worship Lord Shiva. Again there is no doubt in this. But Lord Shiva is definitely not Bhagavan. This is confirmed in Sruti and there is no doubt in this as well. ) Lord Vishnu is Lord of Goodness. No doubt in it. He destroys the demons with all kind of weapons and sometimes with devious way. Lord Siva is lord of Tamas. No doubt in it. He is ugra and yet very peaceful. Doesn’t this tell us something? Lord is one without a second, Krishna confirms this in Bhagvat Gita, there is no doubt in what Krishna says. What is in Sruti I have no idea. Sri Vedvyas has spoken of oneness in Purans in many places, to reject this is like saying Vyasdev did not know Sruti. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Pranam Atanu Re Sabka Malik Ek Hey malik tere bande ham ese ho hamare karam nati par chale--- I have no much knowledge of Vedas, but when i read Bhagvad Gita And Krishna says Of Rudra I am Sankara.i find it very difficult to understand people finding escuses to refute it even when reading Bhagvat, singing the glory of Siva as Bhagvan you will find some people dismissing it, as against Vedas. as if to say Sri Vyasdev did not know what he was writing. Thank you for bringing the Vedas evidence here. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (I see you don't have a sence of humour, my mistake.) No mistake, I just faileid to see the joke, i look out for it next time. Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re (--i call it an attempt to put together for political purposes many incompatible ideas.. ....) I have no political agenda, many ideas incompatible or not were there followed by people of this land, call it what you like, i call this Hindu Dharma. Re (--i think that your idea is very clear and you english is very much better than mine) I read you loud and clear also except i find it very difficult to translate my thought in English, it is taking me a long time writing a sentance. Re (--so what is? if it is nothing why follow?) dont take my choice away. Re (--dharma means the true nature, the characteristic feature of something... the dharma of fire is the heat, the dharma of water is the wetness... the fact is that there's not the possibility to find one real commond dharma for all the schools put together by hindu advocates) That is because dharma of the soul is more complex.how can you define desires of an individual free soul? Re (Dharma is to live by it 24/7. --for this, because it is a very important thing i and most of vaishnavas do not accept approximations and vagueness.) That is your choice. Ananta Koti Vaishnava ki Jay. (I find it very difficult to belong to any group, which puts constrains on an individual soul, stifling its free spirit.) Re (--there's another face of the coin.... your "no grouping" is in itself a position, a decision to avoid to go deeper.) What ever one choose is a position, so what? it does not mean avoiding to go deeper. Re ( And there's nothing bad in remaining on the surface, but it is useless to give a name to this surface. Hinduist is one who does not want to go deep but likes to be under a denomination together with other people) It is neither useless nor avoiding to go deeper, this is your opinion only. go take a dip the ocean is vast. ((Sadhu and saant move from one place to another giving their mercy)) Re (--and they do not consider themselves hindu, they are accurate in their identification, not superficial) They do not consider themselves anything, precisely what i mean no group, there message and mercy is for everyone There identification is with the Lord. Re (---so why promote hinduism? even if it is a non-group? ) Am i? Protecting yes Pratcing yes Imposing NO Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Re ===== No its not, Mathas are not material groups, they are spiritual institition. Your forgetting Varna system.) Everyone calls there institution spriritual, and that may be, but belonging to anyone of tham does not automaticaly transport you to spiritual world.from whare there is no return. Re (Re-wind, I hate when ppls do the whole, cutting somebodys Post to shreads with a whole lot of Regardings, anyways, haribol.) Haribol, sorry i do not wish to insight hate by you, but this is a public forum if you state something, you are bound to get a response. Jai Shree Krishna Re-wind, I hate when ppls do the whole, cutting somebodys Post to shreads with a whole lot of Regardings, anyways, haribol.

Jai Ganesh Re (--the fact is not that your parents have not given spiritual values to you, the fact is that you call these spiritual values hinduism, but they actually are of one of the various (=many) religions practiced in india.. hinduism comes from india.. the name of a land) Subject was not what my parents had given me as spritual values, i was questining if Hindu was just a body given by my mother, as stated by Govindram, then there was no need for them to teach me anything else on hindu) Jai Shree Krishna

Jai Ganesh Jai Maa Sarasvati Re (--no, it is not honest, i do not judge you because you think different by me.. simply i am not convinced --from the beginning i context that these paths are searching the same truth... these truths are different and sometime oppposite --i tolerate differences, at the point that i have no problems if we are not under the same denomination... many differences, many denomination... everyone's happy --a school when are taught opposite concepts are your invention, i do not accept it, there's no need, it creates confusion and it does not increase peace and tolerance --confusion when one's promoting vaishnavism if one's interested to promote vaishnavism and not promote advaitism or shaivism (even not being against if another likes them or promotes them)... so there's no need to bother newcomers with the need to discover wich sect of hinduism he has before.. vaishnavism and that's all) Here I am defending Hindu dharma an age old tradition based on teaching of Vedas and related shastras I am no expert in any one of them nor am I gifted and articulated in English language, my thought patterns happens in gujrati and by the time I translate it the meaning some times escapes me, so if I fail to defend this great dharma of man kind please forgive me. How can I explain something which is not a group nor is it many groups, or combination of both? All I know is to live by my dharma, and there is no equivalent in English for this word. It is not like going to church one day in a week do my prayer and go back and forget about it. Dharma is to live by it 24/7. Slowly realizing this miserable condition of life is product of my own doing, what I do in this life will effect my future existence. The soul is part of god, a free sprit, entangled in this material condition of life, trying to get out. I find it very difficult to belong to any group, which puts constrains on an individual soul, stifling its free spirit. Hindu dharma give you this choice.Sadhu and saant move from one place to another giving their mercy, my koti koti pranam. I am not here to promote or reject any group Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

JaiGanesh Re (Person whos mother is born in India.) Very illuminative Why my parents had bothered to instil all those good values of following the Hindu dharma when all they had to do was to say son you are this body! Re (thats the trouble w/ ethinic Origin, its always doubtfull what your actually are,) The doubts are of your own creation. Re (if your Hindu living in Uk, who used to live is Usa, and now living in Canada, what does that make you.) Does not change anything, if you are a hindu you will be following your dharma, based on Vedic litreature. Re (This is material designation, we all here follow Vedas, which propounds we are living entities.) It will be hard to separate the material designation, even a group or a insitution is a material designation. atatho bramhJinasa that is what Vedas ask of living entities. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. Re

Jai Ganesh When our leaders stop playing politics and follow the Dharma in the footstep of Raja Ram, it will be great. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re === He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who sees all living entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the Supreme Lord within everything never hates anything nor any being. === Very Nice Re (Nothing wrong w/ Hindu, Vaishnavas in Iskcon, are taught we are living entities, eternal parts and parcels of KRSNA, Not Hindus, there is no comprimize, If you have Initiation from Vaishnava you may have Hindu body, but you are a Vaishnava.) So Hindu did not have this concept before Iskcon? and ainitiation from Hindu can not be Vaishnava? What is a Hindu body? Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re (--if you understand why do not you explain it to me? unity in diversity and so on are not enough, you can give this definition to everything) If you are in a group, and if you think yours is the only way, no matter what I say will not make any difference. Re (--yes, this is a similarity .. we have some differences and some similarities... i discuss if these similarities make us belong to the same religious or spiritual brand, or way of salvation, way to see the life and so on) My point was not about contents of our discussion but about being in the same forum. Re (--it is not at all a problem.. only i do not think that we belong to the same group, that's all... no problem at all) We never say we belong to same group we say hindu is many path searching for the same truth. So no problem if you accept or not. Re (--so let us not negate differences until we feel them... when we will be realized maybe we will take other decisions.. no problem) I never said to negate the difference, except you don’t like it I tolerate it. Re (--of course you are very right...) I am glad you agree. Re ( indeed it is for me not enough to put opposite schools in the same group.) I mean opposite concepts but same school. Re (I have many things in common with chinese, but ia m not chinese, Nice to know that, they are easy to distinguish but I really can not tell the difference between japes and Chinese, like I can’t tell the difference between two students who goes to the same uni. Re (i ahve many things in common with an advaitin, but i have too much things in opposition to make impossible to make a group with him.) Nice to know you have many thing in common with advaitin, only difference is the concept. No one is complaining to sankracharya to rescue the Vedas? Re ( If a people see me and him together and say "you are hindus" this has no meaning and creates a big confusion..) Confusion in whose part? surely not the two of you, an outsider either don’t care and if he/she is interested he/she will find out the difference, are you scared of the choice. Re ( he is more close to a buddhist than to me) I take Buddhist any time even though I do not understand the concept of sunya. And you say buddha is one of the ten avatars.! Re (and i am more close to a christian than to him.) that is your choice, I will find great difficulty sitting on the same table with him having dinner. Re (So if i am not in a group with Christian) that is because you study different books. In any case christain want accept you. Re (i am not in a group with advaitins (and i think that they do not want to be grouped with me) Sure your choice, but others do not have any difficulty. Re (--many thinks that brahman is not the supreme, many thinks that choosing to go to nirguna brahman instead of param brahman is like a spiritual suicide, worst than materialism or atheism) So let it be their their choice. --different choice... different names... no problem) That is Hindu way, Hindu denotes many group. Re (---so where's the project, the program, the common ground of this university if in a classroom some one teachs the opposite of the other one? there's nothing like that in schools and universities) To realize the truth is the project, study the Vedas is the program. Execute the dharma laid down in the shastra are the common grounds, no one is teaching the opposite but different concepts are there in the books. You don’t want the schools to churn out machines, all thinking the same do you? Re (different concept will follow until we realize --there's no need, we are already different.... let us unite if we will find something in common, why unite whimsically? ) what is your answer got to do with my statement? Re (Where is the question of uniting different concepts of god? --if you are speaking of a religion, a way to get salvation, a way to reach the absolute what do you want to unite? wich common principle is needed if not the same concept of god?) Who is talking of uniting different concept of god? Read my question again, you keep twisting what I am saying. Re (We can have common practice, common laws common scriptures but common understanding? --this is required... but there's nothing bad if it is not in this way.. we are different and that's enough, no problem in living in peace) Hey that is what we Hindu do (Look at what Lord Krishna is saying. Scarcely one out of thousands of persons strives for perfection of Self-realization. Scarcely any one of the striving, or even the perfected persons, truly understands Me. (7.03) Re (--no objection.. if you think that no one knows the truth, why do you want to make a group where no one knows why they were grouped and for wich purpose?) There you go again, twisting what is Krishna saying, also context in which I have quoted this verse, if the lord is hard to understand, it will follow from here that there will be different concepts of him/her. Re Karma (--this is how it works, not why) So tell me. ((No I am not searching for unity it was there well before Muslim came)) Re (--i also think that originally there was a unity, but there was also a conceptual unity that did keep people together... and that was all over the world, not only in india.. in this way it is factual and productive to be united, same concept, same name.. sanatana dharma) Vedic, Sanatan Dharma and now known by new name Hindu, how and when it came about no one knows for sure but the different concept was then and it is now also. ((Fact that Hindu dharma has survived thousand years of occupation is a testimony in itself.)) Re (--no hindu dharma is not original, hindu is, like other religions, a product of kali yuga, a corruption of the original) let me see what you are saying to my above statement in double brackets, those ancestors of ours who with great sacrifice preserved and kept alive the dharma was all a waste of time because it is not original? Thank you. Re ( sanatana dharma that, in my opinion was vaishnava dharma (i do not claim now to be right, simply i am not ina group who thinks that this opposite conceptions are all together the same dharma and that they were originally existing in satya, treta, dvapara yugas...) Yes opinion, opinions why should I argue with that. (.. so if the worsippers of christ are christians, the worshippers of vishnu, shiva, nirguna brahman are vaishnava, shaivites, advaitins... why hindu? Because these are concepts within the same scriptures different interpretation of same supreme Brahman, Hindu is a new name for these followers. Re ( why a name who resembles a nation? why one who loves christ is not a Palestinian) Because Hindu is not a country, Hindusthan is, inhabitants of this land, Bharat Bhumi, is a Hindu.anyone who studies the same scripture is a Hindu, or not your choice. Re (but a shaivite has to be (h)indian even if he's from poland?national pride is natural as you have said, so it is a crime to lose even one people who would want to worship vishnu, or siva, or ganesh and so on but he does not belong to India) No I never said that, but I see your agenda for an outsider to accept this great dharma which is universal and no hindu will deny this but you want to deny all the Indians who follow it. Re (--so let us stop this identification for external things, this is not an advantage for anyone, it creates confusion) One can only identify externally, internally impossible to tell, confusion is not mine. Re (-- It is like you were saying "nothing is real and definite so let us unite on nothing" instead of finding reasons to unite. ) Go on twist what I have said or not said. What is there to unite, group or institution can only help you so much at the end of the day ones effort and the mercy of the lord one can go back home. ((I am an individual who follow Hindu way of life)) Re (--that i think that it does not exist or, if your definitions are right, i do not think that vaishnavism belongs to it(the original subject of the thread) The fact that I am talking to you prove that it exist, even if I am the only one. You are welcome to think what you like. Re (What are the differences to common principals please list them --for example on what is the neture of the absolute, who is or what is.... the most important thing of a spiritual path) This is not the answer to my question, you stated in your statement “even the common principals there are differences” so state them, not the different concepts that does exists. Re (--no it means that we disagree on another subject... you see no difference, i see difference... so we do not belong to the same hindu denomination for this reason too) Do you read anything I write? I see difference and I respect that. You also see differences but you don’t like it. WE say Hindu is not a religion, but a way of life there are many paths, many groups even group within a group, follow your chosen path, hindu is simply a new name for Vedic way of life. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re ( --it is not important for our discussion now... there's a name, a definition, i am simply saying that this name, definition, style, religion, way and so on does not really unite anything) Unity in diversity democratic, individuals’ choice to accept or reject, no mixing of groups but mutual respect of each others. You are coming from outside finding very hard to understand this but believe me what you fail to see does exist. Re (--there's not a moment when a spiritualist is no more a student, one does not stop to learn..... if seeking is the common point there's also buddhist, christians, muslims who are seeking) Yes learning is on going process, that is why we are talking, we may have some similarity and we may disagree on others but you and I are part of this forum, if you can see the point. As for Christians and Muslim although they are also seeking but they are not of the same school there way of life is different they study their own scripture While with Buddhist I can identify with them more closely even though there concept of the supreme is different, but there way of life is so similar. Re (We study from same books --many times interpreting them in opposite ways) And why should that be a problem? I look at a bottle half empty some one else might see that as half full. I see a rainbow it is beautiful, I like one color more then the others someone may like opposite then me and someone colorblind may only see one or two colors, someone else like them all. still a rainbow Re (we worship the same gods ---many times having of these gods different conceptions and, sometimes, thinking that these gods are maya, illusion, a thing to discard (mayavadis and advaitins) Conceptions will remain until the truth is realized. Re (---karma is a very basic law, also science beliefs in some sort of cause-effect law... so basic to put together people with opposite concepts on more fundamental matters) If the basic law is not understood, nothing can make sense. That is why others can’t answer why people suffer? They say why is god so cruel? Why does god allow so much killing? So it is important to know this basic things first and only then you can progress towards more fundamental matters. Re (--many thinks that brahman is not the supreme, many thinks that choosing to go to nirguna brahman instead of param brahman is like a spiritual suicide, worst than materialism or atheism) So let it be their their choice. Re ( --yes and no.. there's vision that one judges compatible with his one, others different in some details, other opposite, other blaspheme.. so where is the commpn principle to say that we are belonging to the same group?) Yes, and that goes on, different groups within the same university of Vedic (Hindu) dharma. Re ( --religions are united by more esoteric matters, by the common understanding on who is the living being, who is god and so on.) Scarcely one out of thousands of persons strives for perfection of Self-realization. Scarcely any one of the striving, or even the perfected persons, truly understands Me. (7.03) different concept will follow until we realize Where is the question of uniting different concepts of god? We can have common practice, common laws common scriptures but common understanding? Look at what Lord Krishna is saying. Re (And if we go in details the indian religions have also opposite beliefs on why we are subjected to karma law,) Why, is a difficult question to answer. Gahana karmano gatih. Re (how can we get out from it, who is the source of karma law, what is to do to get out.... if we dig we find tremendous differences even in basics) Really? Care to elaborate. All I know is I am getting fruit of my action, good or bad, as a result of my Karma. There is a lot more to it but this my simple understanding. Re (Unity can not be artificial --it seems to me that searching this Hindu unity is artificial and done for no spiritual reason, but political, national pride, revenge against muslims and so on... of course i will change my idea when a demonstration of the opposite will be given) No I am not searching for unity it was there well before Muslim came, and it is here now, different concepts are not a new phenomina. Fact that Hindu dharma has survived thousand years of occupation is a testimony in itself. How could we have survived the false propaganda, forcible conversion? Revenge is not in nature of Hindu, no country would have let the symbol of occupation survived a minute longer. The fact that many eyesore still exist on the holy land which a constant reminder to us of their cruelty is an example in itself of our patience. National pride is natural. Politics? Raj niti should be based on dharma. Re (Same way of life --ok... how can they be in the same way of life?.... i do not consider blasphemy compatible with my own way of life, so there's no need for me to join the same group of someone who, for me, is blaspheming) Absolutely no need to join any group, but if you are following certain way of life, reading the same scriptures, worshiping the same god but with different concept, people will identify you as the same. At the end of the day it is an individual’s choice, we came to this world alone we leave alone, and only thing that goes with us is our Karma. Concept of the supreme lord is still a concept, our realization will be our own, and we can only pass that on as a concept. Re (--but the interpretations are opposite, christians say god, muslims say god... but we are not muslims or christian but something different) That is because they study different scriptures, there way of life is different, they do not believe in reincarnation they believe in eternal hell and heaven, they say animals have no soul, I am an individual who follow Hindu way of life, I belong to no group. I am an infidel or a heathen according to some. Re (Marginal? wow --yes.. in comparison with other more important truths, to recognise that we do not act with our own powers but that these powers are given by god it is surely marginal... ) To transcend the three gunas are marginal to you may be. I am struggling to give up my ego. The threefold fruit of works — desirable, undesirable, and mixed  accrues after death to the one who is not a renunciant (Tyagi), but never to a Tyagi. (18.12) Re (all religions say this) give example. Re (--yes, the only thing that it is said by every hindu advocate is that hinduism is everything and the opposite of everything, and this is very blissful... in a sense it is a nice idea, in another sense it is another kind of fundamentalism) Go on have your cake and eat it. Re (, that everything has to be watered and that who goes deeper is a fanatic... not enough to reunite so many spiritual ideas) Who goes deeper finds the pearl; in Hindu a sanyasi is revered. Spiritual ideas can only be respected. Re (apart from different concepts that does exists, what are the different answers, to common principals? --i have already said them even in the message that you were answering.... if you do not see them as differences, it is clear that we do not belong to the same "hinduism"... so there's no need of it ) What are the differences to common principals please list them, if I don’t see them as different surely it means we agree? Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh (--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything..) Arjun wanted to do this in the first place lamenting seeing no good coming out of this war, he wanted to abandon every thing --nice objection.. the answer is that there's nothing bad in renunciation, the bad is to renunciate when we are not ready. Sannyasa stage is for everyone, but at the end of life. So for arjuna in kuruksetra the real renunciation was to follow his karma with dedication to krsna.. and the conclusion of a life devoted to god through turning karma in yoga is the total renunciation, sarva dharma, any duty, any sectarian religion and so on , if you do not have law and order where is your chance to practice your religion? --law and order is a government business.. i do not understand how they will come by uniting artificially different religions or ways to think the transcendence in one Bg. 16.24 Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction. ---this instruction is precious and absolute... is it suggesting to identify dharma with a nation? Hindu means a way of life ---hindu means various way of life.. many extremely different and sometimes opposite... (no religion is called with the name of a nation... christianism is not "palestinism" and buddhism is not "tibetanism" and so on.. so why we have to do a thing like that with india?) NOT Atall You have answered most of my post out of context if i have time i will get back to it Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re (--wrong.. this is not the problem..) I see Hindu as a way of life you see it as religion. It is wrong as well as not a problem,so what is it? Re (If me and you together join a group we must have something in common and something who makes us different from others. My point is that hinduism is not in this way. Many so called hindu schools have opposite beliefs and many hindu schools are more close to some non hindu religions than to some hindu ones.) When we go to school, we are all a student. When we study spirituality we are fellow seekers. We study from same books, we worship the same gods. We all accept the Karma principal, dharma principals are the same, goal of life is to reach the supreme Brahman. Since the Lord is undefineable, unfathomable, not limited in any sense, the concepts of this same supreme varies depending on from which angle one is looking. Re (We are at a more basic level, call hinduism as you want, religion, dharma, way of life, style, tradition, no problem... my point is that there's not a strong common point who reunites all these different religions, dharmas, subgroups, schools coming vaguely from india. ) What you call basic level, are actually fundamental principal to understand the supreme. In any case without the basic principal say 2+2 , more complex maths equation will fall apart. Re (--artificial unity is useless and mutual respect is to be done also respecting differences) Unity can not be artificial. Respect yes, tolerance also; nice virtue. Re (Externaly we all go to same temples,worships the same Lord in different forms, --but with opposite purposes.. a personalist will go to the temple thinking that the archa murti is the supreme, the impersonalist will go to the temple seeing this murti as a maya's form to help ignorant people to reach absolute, The first wil see this position as the worst blasphemy and offence. How can they be in the same religion?) Who says same religion? Same way of life, different concepts, Vedas talk of Maya, impersonal Brahman, Bhagvan. Re (and internaly we must transend the three gunas. --this is a very marginal part of religion, to transcend materialism to reach spiritualism is in every religion,, they will call it virtue instead of sattva but the meaning is the same. Many schools also do not consider it a goal to be achieved with separated efforts.) Marginal? wow Re (--and this gives the well known problem that people very often believe that hinduism is a mix of strange, polytheist and tribal beliefs. And this comes from the fact that hinduism has not a real common generative concept (it is demonstrated also by the fact that at every request "wich is the general, common principle of hinduism, every one gives a different answer) So this non-definition gives also bad propaganda.. why every one has to be trapped in this name? ) Well known to who? Who is trying to make propaganda? No one is trapping anyone. One is free to choose that is the beauty of Hindu way of life. May be you can demonstrate here, apart from different concepts that does exists, what are the different answers, to common principals? Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re (--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything..) Arjun wanted to do this in the first place lamenting seeing no good coming out of this war, he wanted to abandon every thing.Bg.2 Arjun laments Bg.18.59/60 If due to ego you think: I shall not fight; this resolve of yours is vain. Your own nature will compel you (to fight). (18.59) What you do not wish to do out of delusion; you shall do even that against your will, bound by your own nature-born Karma, O Arjuna. (18.60) Re ( including sectarian and nationalistic religion (not religion at all.. religion means connection.. yoga) Yes no one likes sectarians but how are you going to separate the two, if you cant strike a balance, if you do not have law and order where is your chance to practice your religion? Re (I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion,) Yes Vaishnava is one who worship Lord Vishnu.It is a way of life,religion has no meaning for this. --of course, so the "hinduism" religion has no meaning too Yes if you want to put it that way, it is a way of life. Re (religion?--the one accepted by faith, birth, tradition, nationalism) Faith, very essential Birth- no accident. Tradition- worth holding on to Nationalism- natural but no need to brag about Re It is said to follow the path of dharma is like walking on a double edged sword. (--so let us do not mix nationalism with spirituality... hindu means india ) When a soul is in material condition of life the two is inseparable, that is why Krishna says Bg. 16.24 Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction. Hindu means a way of life Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re (Friend and Vaishnava, two in one package. ) I have never read anywhere Arjun declared himself to be a Vaishnava, he is called that by inference. Re (You can't be a Friend of Krsna, without being a Vaishnava, Arjuna says I have dined with, been familiar with you, I did not know you are Supreme God, Arjuna was sorry, but he had no reason to be, those are qualities of a Vaishnava.) We all have relationship with the Lord, Vaishnava is a designation. What! Qualities of a Vaishnava are to be sorry when you do not have to be sorry? Re (You can't find this in any common man, thats includes Hindus.) Arjun was not a common man that will be a hard act to follow in this day and age. Jivas are for ever sorry, making mistakes all the time. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Jai Ganesh Re (Krsna says 'Abandon all varities of Religion and just surrender unto me, I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction, Do Not Fear.) Arjun is kstrya, Lord Krishna is asking him to follow his dharma (duty). Re (I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion,) Yes Vaishnava is one who worship Lord Vishnu.It is a way of life,religion has no meaning for this. Re (Religion you could change at any time, but your position remains the same. ) Depands what you mean by religion? Re (I could be a Christian/Muslim very easily, to be a Vaishnava requires so much, how many individuals are willing to take it up? Not a lot it seems..) It is said to follow the path of dharma is like walking on a double edged sword. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.